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While I haven't played through this AP, I have read it, and the whole plotline with Sorshen just annoys the 9 hells out of me. Here we have a woman whose acts include:
1. Indirectly killing a crowd of people in the process of finding her champion.
2. Slaughtering thousands of innocents to create the Everdawn Pool and achieve eternal youth, the benefits of which she still reaps to this day.
3. Conspiring with the other runelords to depose a rightful and generally pretty nice ruler (Xin) so that she could consolidate her own power.
4. Hiring the PCs to kill her rivals and make way for her kingdom of New Thassilon, while doing nearly nothing to help them directly- including helping them take down Alaznist, whose CR is significantly lower than hers. For real, Sorshen could have hit Alaznist with a mythic augmented meteor swarm or two and she would have melted immediately.
5. Coming forward after the PCs save the entire friggin' land of Varisia (and much of the Inner Sea) to forge her own nation for... outcasts, I guess? Her own nation, which she now gets to rule in perpetuity due to her eternal youth, gained by bathing in the blood of thousands.
I get that she's "redeemed". But she's still Chaotic Neutral (which, by the way, is used as a "pretty much evil" alignment by Paizo), she's still selfish and cowardly, and she's still a criminal and overall terrible person the likes of which Golarion has scarcely seen. Even her actual motives are spotty. She doesn't seem to care much about being a nice person, rather, she has changed her mindset because she saw her fellow runelords getting ganked and decided that being a tyrannical maniac was a good way to get killed.
Other than the fact that she has eight 9th level spell slots, why should the (at least) two groups of powerful heroes in Varisia conspire to remove Sorshen from power and make her answer for her crimes? The whole idea of New Thassilon leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially since the AP assumes that Sorshen will be allowed to live and continue ruling.
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Because evil can only be redeemed if it's female and pretty. SEE wrath of the righteous for more details.
In seriousness though this is one of the few stupid tropes that Paizo still doesn't seem to be over.
Super powerful NPC's subverting or cheapening the PC's victory is another pet peeve of mine.
I guess it's comparable to the end of Reign of Winter, except that you knew what you were in for starting before the second book.
There's also no reason that you can't continue the campaign and give Sorshen her just desserts. Though I guess New Thassilon is canon no matter what you do in your home game.
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She didn't actually create everdawn pool though. Though she did use the mass sacrifice ritual yes
Also, wait, which super power NPC stealing the spotlight? I don't remember any paizo APs that do that. Heck, that doesn't even happen with Sorshen considering that Alaznist's time shenanigans would have taken out Sorshen without PCs there.
Reign of Winter doesn't count either, since the climax of whole AP is finally meeting Baba Yaga and having final conversation with her and getting boons from her because of the whole ordeal(the Elvana is really more of plot device to get you to that point)
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She didn't actually create everdawn pool though. Though she did use the mass sacrifice ritual yes
Also, wait, which super power NPC stealing the spotlight? I don't remember any paizo APs that do that. Heck, that doesn't even happen with Sorshen considering that Alaznist's time shenanigans would have taken out Sorshen without PCs there.
Reign of Winter doesn't count either, since the climax of whole AP is finally meeting Baba Yaga and having final conversation with her and getting boons from her because of the whole ordeal(the Elvana is really more of plot device to get you to that point)
Forgot that she just discovered the thing. She still needed to bathe in the blood of innocents to make use of it, though. Still counts.
And while Sorshen was trapped by Alaznist, the presence of ultra-powerful NPCs just weakens the story overall. A 10th rank, 20th level full caster could blast through any AP. Sorshen had no real reason not to do so, but she uses the PCs as pawns instead. Jerk move.
As for Baba Yaga, she is definitely a railroading plot device. The PCs have a magical geas put on them by a powerful NPC that forces them to go save her. The boons at the end are nice, but they don't make up for that.
Also possibly Tyrants grasp from the way things are going.
I have no knowledge of anything going on in Tyrant's Grasp... I'm intrigued! What do you mean?
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Baba Yaga does have the plot geas yeah, but its still case of "Its AP about working for Baba Yaga" so calling it railroad is like saying "This AP where PCs are on the rail is literal railroad!"
Like, plot geas doesn't actually ever do anything bad assuming pcs want to play the campaign, so its more of flavor thing of "Yes, you are forced to do this by someone evil"
Anyway, they are speculating on that since Arazni tries to use pcs as pawns agaisnt Tyrant, but she gets nuked in fourth book so she probably isn't around to help in final book even if she rejuvenates on time.
Also the way I see it is "Why WOULD Sorshen complete the future APs any more than past PCs?" and CN being also helping to explain it.
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Whether or not it's the point of the AP to serve Baba Yaga, it just feels like a cop-out. They even mention that the geas isn't needed- it's just a weird addition that they slapped on to force unwilling PCs to serve an evil witch queen. Did they come into the AP knowing this? Yes, probably. Is it still lazy? Yeah, it is.
And while past PCs aren't present in adventure paths, the ending of all APs is not included in every other AP. The only reason there's continuity in the Runelords trilogy (or quadrilogy, counting CotCT) is because they're all directly related. You can't expect Paizo to make room for every group of powerful PCs, but when it comes to a canon NPC that's central to the plot, it stops being a matter of convenience and starts being plain old bad writing.
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The same thing happens with gods a lot too.
At the end of Hell's Rebels, it's revealed you were just playing to the tune of Mestophiles who bet on both sides. It's unsatisfying for the players but very much in character an archduke of Hell.
In Wrath of the Righteous you basically get co opted by Iomadae to do her bidding. Not going to wade into the surrounding controversy.
Hell's Vengeance has you working for Fext for half of it and Abrogail for the other half.
Obviously Baba Yaga in reign of winter. Especially with the whole geas thing.
I'd say the majority of AP's don't have this kind of overshadowing of the PC's, and personally I not only have no problem with any of these listed, they're actually all on my favorites list.
I haven't read Return of the Runelords because I hope to play it someday. But yeah if Sorshen is giving you quests not sure how I feel about that.
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Sorshen is fine. If you want NPC's to do your job for you, watch a TV series.
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Sorshen is fine. If you want NPC's to do your job for you, watch a TV series.
If I expected every powerful NPC to do my job, I'd go hire some mythic heroes that are lazing about around Golarion :p
It's just a matter of her not only manipulating the PCs, but not being punished or even confronted about her many, many crimes. She canonically gets to keep ruling as if Earthfall had never happened (albeit less tyrannically).
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I mean, I wouldn't say there's little proof of it. She herself is alive, the other runelords have just recently died, a new city was discovered full of historical records of the Runelords' cruelty, and yes. You can just cast legend lore.
PCs do get a pass on murder, fair enough. But at least they're usually killing evil things rather than bathing in blood and enslaving people.
We imprison people for crimes long past here on Earth, why should I not apply Earth ethics to this situation?
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Whether or not it's the point of the AP to serve Baba Yaga, it just feels like a cop-out. They even mention that the geas isn't needed- it's just a weird addition that they slapped on to force unwilling PCs to serve an evil witch queen.
It's also entirely in-character for Baba Yaga to geas her servants, to the extent that it would probably be out of character for her to entrust the mantle of one of her Riders to entirely free agents.
Reign of Winter was also written at the same time as Mythic Adventures, and I believe Neil Spicer said that the granting of the Black Rider's mantle would have been a Mythic ascension had the system been ready. Its grant of power is roughly balanced with the first and second Mythic tiers (particularly the +2 ability score). This is important to remember because Mythic Adventures also introduced the idea of its special power being tied to some weakness or drawback - not that anyone bothers. So the geas falls in line with that attempt to balance a special grant of exceptional power.
Finally, it continues to astound me that any GM would reveal the geas to their players as anything but a nasty surprise for gross neglect of their quest. It is a quest hook in itself. "You awaken after a restless night. Your dreams were plagued by a vision of your grandmother dancing on a pair of chicken feet while you sorted through a pile of mixed salt and pepper grains. You feel drained and bleary, and face the challenges ahead with trepidation. [Take -1 to each ability score]."
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Good points. I guess it's a matter of how far back you're willing to go in order to punish someone- I'm sure at least one country would try to arrest Genghis Khan. Or at least detain him for interrogation and such.
I don't really see Sorshen's opposition of Alaznist as a "redemption" thing. More like a "this woman is insane and wants to kill me with fire, and if I get melted I can't start my kingdom" thing. Who knows what's going on in that 40 CHA and INT mind?
Letting her do her own thing can be seen in a few ways, clearly. I think a worshiper of Iomedae and a worshiper of Sarenrae, despite worshiping deities of Good, would have different views on this subject.
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I think second question is "Can anyone really even take on Sorshen or Baba Yaga?". In case of Baba Yaga, taking on her is even more questionable because she rules such large multiplanar empire that taking her out would definitely create some sort of power vacoom that people on planet like Golarion have no idea at all what it would cause in bigger picture.
There is also the "Well, yeah, she did those bad things long time ago, but she won't do them anymore, right? She isn't evil anymore" factor, I don't know how many PC characters actually care about "Okay, we are going to do this by the book as possible and you have to pay for every single bad thing you have done"
I think the main issue is of you believe in the idea of redemption or not. I do. Sorshen helps prevent the end of Varisia (at least) and then actually tries to better herself. That's enough for me.
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I don't mind the idea of redemption, even for demons and ancient murder wizards. It's probably my favorite theme of WotR even if it gets a bit underused.
It's just that redemption for the evil sexy lady with the tragic past and automatic, thoughtless torture and death for everyone who doesn't match those standards is... concerning for me.
It draws from some pretty negative tropes but I don't want to derail things further.
I would say that for the most part Paizo does a great job of avoiding or subverting these kinds of tropes.
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We actually had this exact same thread a short time ago. I pointed out in it already that Paizo has given plenty of non "hot female" characters the chance at redemption in their AP's. Of course the people who were pushing this false point didn't accept that fact, but what can you do?
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I just think the sorshen redeem thing kinda comes out of no where compared to other mentioned characters. All the build up till the ap seemed to be still evil unlike say Noctilia who even before wotr had hints of redemption in her story. (Now I could be wrong but I suspect there where mechanical as well as story reasons to make it that sohrshen was not one of the BBEG.)
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We actually had this exact same thread a short time ago. I pointed out in it already that Paizo has given plenty of non "hot female" characters the chance at redemption in their AP's. Of course the people who were pushing this false point didn't accept that fact, but what can you do?
What can you, magnuskn, do?
I guess you could not assume that everyone on the boards has read every single thread. Maybe even link to the thread if you don't want to rehash your points here. If you're feeling generous go ahead and give a few examples to back up your statements.
Maybe you could also not be disrespectful and dismissive of other posters, even if they're misguided or incorrect (in your opinion). Don't assume that no one is willing to be listen or be persuaded. I'm actually willing and interested in being proven wrong.
Also, for the record, I don't think you've understood what I'm saying at all. Can't speak for anyone else.
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Unrelated, but Arushalae's redemption is also a little underwhelming. If it takes the direct intervention of a goddess' magic to redeem a demon, it doesn't really count.
This thread seems to have gotten a little heated. I did not see the previous thread discussing this, and this is actually the only thread I've participated in in the Return of the Runelords section. Sorry if I'm covering an already-discussed topic.
I guess the most convincing evidence for Sorshen actually trying to be a better person is her alignment shift. Everything else can be seen as purely self-interest- changing alignment is pretty concrete. As for whatever negative trope this is fulfilling... I'm gonna stay out of that. I have my grievances with Paizo, but I don't want to start some huge flame war on an already smoldering thread.
Actually, I was conflating a conversation in a thread from four months ago with a thread in this subforum from three months ago. Man, time passes rapidly. Sorry for the testyness.
Link to the conversation in the AP product thread.
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Actually, I was conflating a conversation in a thread from four months ago with a thread in this subforum from three months ago. Man, time passes rapidly. Sorry for the testyness.
Link to the conversation in the AP product thread.
No worries. I hope I didn't come off as too aggressive, I've been reading the forums for a long time and while I don't always agree with you, I do find your comments well reasoned and insightful.
The links were very useful, btw. Not sure my opinions have changed much but it's nice to have some context, particularly from JJ on what Paizo intended.
Well I'd say near every adventurer has a triple digit kill count by the end of the AP, so aren't the ones to complain about a little Type-O bath.
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Well I'd say near every adventurer has a triple digit kill count by the end of the AP, so aren't the ones to complain about a little Type-O bath.
Meh. Adventurers spend most of their time killing evil (or mindlessly neutral) things, and often for good reason. It's a matter of personal choice, ultimately, and will vary from group to group- some are indiscriminate murder-hobos, and some are righteous and fair. Sorshen had that choice, too. She chose to slaughter stuff and use the blood to make herself immortal.
And now she used that choice to help save Varisia and try to be a better person. I don't know how many times you need to save an entire country to redeem yourself. I think "once" is a big enough number, though.
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And now she used that choice to help save Varisia and try to be a better person. I don't know how many times you need to save an entire country to redeem yourself. I think "once" is a big enough number, though.
My response was purely to that one claim of adventurers' killings being as heinous than Sorshen's.
I'm not debating that first part of your response. She did help to save Varisia. Becoming a better person is less obvious, but I'm willing to accept that too if only due to her alignment change. All of that doesn't mean she can't be punished. David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in prison. He was punished first, then was "redeemed". He's still serving six consecutive life sentences. It's clearly more subjective than I first saw it as, but one can argue for both sides. Maybe it's fine to let her free... or maybe, as the book hints, she could backslide to evil due to her guisarme's influence. I don't see punishing her as an evil act, just a lawful one.
Cough Cough. Might want to edit or else we'll get modded
.-.
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And now she used that choice to help save Varisia and try to be a better person. I don't know how many times you need to save an entire country to redeem yourself. I think "once" is a big enough number, though.My response was purely to that one claim of adventurers' killings being as heinous than Sorshen's.
I'm not debating that first part of your response. She did help to save Varisia. Becoming a better person is less obvious, but I'm willing to accept that too if only due to her alignment change. All of that doesn't mean she can't be punished. David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in prison. He was punished first, then was "redeemed". He's still serving six consecutive life sentences. It's clearly more subjective than I first saw it as, but one can argue for both sides. Maybe it's fine to let her free... or maybe, as the book hints, she could backslide to evil due to her guisarme's influence. I don't see punishing her as an evil act, just a lawful one.
Okay, let's talk about the practicalities here, then. Who exactly is going to go "punish" her? There is no central authority in Varisia, it's all city states with some moderate influence on their surrounding area. So there's not even an argument of "She's taken our land!", since nobody has claimed the area she is establishing New Thassilon in (I assume she will be integrating the nomads of the Nolands into her realm). No neighboring state is going to care or have the moral or legal authority to interfere in Varisia. About nobody else on Golarion cares.
I can imagine some group of Hellknights getting a burr up their butts about it, but good luck with that quest. So, basically we'd need a bunch of super-lawful level 20 adventurers caring enough to go and do the deed, at which point they'd discover how outclassed they are even at that level by a mythic tier ten character. Although Sorshen has been built in a way where she isn't even using some of the most powerful stuff available. If she had mythic Fireball with Empower Spell and Maximise Spell, adventurers would just go "poof" as soon as they'd try to apprehend her.
Honestly, I find it much more likely that people would go after Belimarius, who still is openly evil and also does not even have a mythic tier to her name. But somehow she doesn't get multiple threads with people complaining about her status quo after Return of the Runelords.
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I think it'd be more interesting if Sorshen continued to be evil, but succeeded in creating New Thassilon anyways. It'd be cool to have a flagrantly CE power that is nonetheless stable and rational enough to consort with other nations in politics.
It'd be fun seeing the good guys squirm and wonder if dealing with Thrune or Sorshen is more damning.
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Adventurers quite often don't have very good judgement. otherwise quitting at 6th level and becoming a captain of the guard/court mage/head of church would be the more attractive option to getting eaten a mile underground.
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Adventurers quite often don't have very good judgement. otherwise quitting at 6th level and becoming a captain of the guard/court mage/head of church would be the more attractive option to getting eaten a mile underground.
I tend to assume that that's how most of those people got around in the first place. One doesn't get 6 levels of any class by sitting at a desk and filling out papers.
Let's not underestimate the amount of plot shielding characters in adventure paths get. I imagine that for every successful adventurer, there are at least a 100 who never make it past level five, be it from death of early retirement.
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Adventurers quite often don't have very good judgement. otherwise quitting at 6th level and becoming a captain of the guard/court mage/head of church would be the more attractive option to getting eaten a mile underground.I tend to assume that that's how most of those people got around in the first place. One doesn't get 6 levels of any class by sitting at a desk and filling out papers.
"I filed twenty cases today!"
"Good work, 100 xp!"
*Ding!* Level up!"
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Adventurers quite often don't have very good judgement. otherwise quitting at 6th level and becoming a captain of the guard/court mage/head of church would be the more attractive option to getting eaten a mile underground.I tend to assume that that's how most of those people got around in the first place. One doesn't get 6 levels of any class by sitting at a desk and filling out papers."I filed twenty cases today!"
"Good work, 100 xp!"
*Ding!* Level up!"
Can confirm it doesn't work like that. One gains XP in litigation by winning motions and trials.
Ultimate Lawyer
Rogue (charlatan) 20
NE medium humanoid (human)
Feats: Deceitful, Skill Focus (Bluff, Intimidate, Profession: barrister), Blustering Bluff, Combat Expertise, Greater Feint, Improved Feint, Extra Talent (honeyed words, coax information, cunning lie)
Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.
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Plus all city states had sent expeditions to Xin-Shalast to try to loot it/claim it for themselves, so they are probably bit annoyed that additional party appeared out of nowhere to win that race for them :D
Even if all outcasts want to move to New Thassilon, just accepting outcasts and exiles in general is also gonna add some Ire. So I'm kinda interested in knowing whether Sorshen's mythical charisma is good enough that she is well liked even though she has bad reputation.(both from the past and present)
But yeah, I still gotta say that I guess I could see LN party to be like "Nah, you need to pay for your crimes that happened thousands of years ago!" and I wouldn't think they are exactly wrong for it since if that happened in real life(genocidal dictators appearing out of nowhere in future) people would want to punish them, but this is fantasy and Sorshen is bit too powerful to be punished. Not just because of "who could take take her on?" factor, but also because she has lot of ancient knowledge that would be useful in modern day, so from pragmatic sense lot of folks would want to benefit from that.
I do however find it questionable if people who redeemed that old lich named Alderpash want to really hard to punish Sorshen :P
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Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.
The creation of countries that are divided up into bits by mountains is a recurrent element in Paizo's mapping. In Avistan alone, the following countries or subdivisions are so divided: Ravounel and most of Hellcoast from the rest of Cheliax by the Menador Mountains; the eastern and western parts of the Archduchy of Menador within Cheliax by a spur of the Menador Mountains; western and eastern Andoran by the Arthfell Mountains; northern and southern Ustalav by the Hungry Mountains; and the western and eastern Realm of the Mammoth Lords by the Tusk Mountains. Of these, New Eurythnia's situation is most similar to Menador's. Both consist of valleys broken up by mountains, and without magic (or routing communication outside the country itself, either through a neighbor or through wilderness) would be basically ungovernable.