Sorshen and New Thassilon (SPOILERS)


Return of the Runelords

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magnuskn wrote:
Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.

Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:

Plus all city states had sent expeditions to Xin-Shalast to try to loot it/claim it for themselves, so they are probably bit annoyed that additional party appeared out of nowhere to win that race for them :D

Even if all outcasts want to move to New Thassilon, just accepting outcasts and exiles in general is also gonna add some Ire. So I'm kinda interested in knowing whether Sorshen's mythical charisma is good enough that she is well liked even though she has bad reputation.(both from the past and present)

If we go by stats alone, she's equally as charismatic as Nocticula was as a demon lord.

CorvusMask wrote:

But yeah, I still gotta say that I guess I could see LN party to be like "Nah, you need to pay for your crimes that happened thousands of years ago!" and I wouldn't think they are exactly wrong for it since if that happened in real life(genocidal dictators appearing out of nowhere in future) people would want to punish them, but this is fantasy and Sorshen is bit too powerful to be punished. Not just because of "who could take take her on?" factor, but also because she has lot of ancient knowledge that would be useful in modern day, so from pragmatic sense lot of folks would want to benefit from that.

I do however find it questionable if people who redeemed that old lich named Alderpash want to really hard to punish Sorshen :P

Yeah, good point. I really do wonder if the mythic heroes of WotR will have a canon part in second edition Golarion. Because let's keep it real, they could probably each individually just establish themselves as overlords of any nation they like. Well, minus New Thassilon. :p

James Jacobs wrote:
Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

Shadow Lodge

An agglomeration (the term "nation" is too generous") of the lazzaroni and of the boheme of Varisia is bound to be a destabilizing factor in world politics - either a source of unscrupulous filibusters or an exporter of mercenaries. Ordinarily, such a mad dog of a country would be swiftly put down. It will only be by Sorshen's personal power - and her discretion against upsetting her neighbor Baba Yaga too badly, which can only end in a world-shattering clash of titans - that it survives at all.

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magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

How often do Magnimar and Korvosa use ostracism/exile as a punishment?

Or by "exile" do you mean "people who feel alienated enough to emigrate" rather than "people who have been subjected to the punishment of exile?"

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

How often do Magnimar and Korvosa use ostracism/exile as a punishment?

Or by "exile" do you mean "people who feel alienated enough to emigrate" rather than "people who have been subjected to the punishment of exile?"

Not often.

By "exile" I mean both actual exiles (from ANY nation or city or group, not just Magnimar or Korvosa) and people who are alienated and people who have to flee an oppressive regime that's persecuting them.

It's a convenient one-word solution to a paragraph of information.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

How often do Magnimar and Korvosa use ostracism/exile as a punishment?

Or by "exile" do you mean "people who feel alienated enough to emigrate" rather than "people who have been subjected to the punishment of exile?"

Not often.

By "exile" I mean both actual exiles (from ANY nation or city or group, not just Magnimar or Korvosa) and people who are alienated and people who have to flee an oppressive regime that's persecuting them.

It's a convenient one-word solution to a paragraph of information.

Been thinking more about where the bulk of the imported population of New Eurythnia is coming from, and where it will go. The bulk of it, because everywhere else is too far to walk from and teleportation is the preserve of a select few, will likely come from New Eurythnia's neighbors: Irrisen, the Hold of Belkzen, points south in Varisia (principally Korvosa and Magnimar and their holdings since they predominate population-wise, but also Urglin, Kaer Maga, Janderhoff, and Riddleport and its holdings, as well as possibly from among the Shoanti and giant populations), New Edasseril, and the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.

Belimarius and Anastasia (I'd bet money she ends up canon queen of Irrisen in the PF2 ISWG) are not likely to let their peoples leave, and migration from Irrisen through the Kodar Mountains is extremely difficult. Even if any Irriseni tried, they would be heading towards the most rugged, inhospitable parts of Sorshen's realm, probably not even an improvement from the conditions they're used to. However, Belimarius is waging expansionist wars, and those create refugees. Probably not many elves will leave the Mierani Forest, opting for guerrilla resistance instead. But some will. More common will be refugees from the Linnorm Kingdoms. Both these and any elves will likely end up in the Nolands around Brinewall, and form the basis for the latter's castle town. Belkzen is also not likely to provide much population. Of the points south in Varisia, Korvosa might suffer the largest exodus, though probably not enough to be crippling. Janderhoff might also be hit fairly hard, since trading one mountain realm for another isn't so terrible. Emigrants from eastern Varisia would probably congregate around the headwaters of the Kazaron, Shalak, and Storval Rivers.

New Eurythnia will probably end up dumbbell-shaped population-wise, anchored by Brinewall in the west and Xin-Shalast in the east, with little (and certainly no roads!) in between. Pretty good adventure fodder in the middle lands, but a hard realm to keep unified.

I wonder if Runeforge goes back to serving its original purpose as neutral ground, now that there are multiple Thassilonian realms active again, or if Sorshen takes exclusive possession.


James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.
Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.

Come to my new city! First 100,000 get free Slippers of Spider climbing!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Well, unless you count a mythic character from WotR who is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist, who presumably took the archmage mythic path. :p But since that is unspecified due to you guys not knowing party compositions of everybody who played WotR to the end, she probably is the most powerful arcane caster on Golarion. Although we still have to see the Whispering Tyrant's stat block. :)

That's still a lot of Disintegrates and Stone Shapes to cast, to get a decent road up to Xin-Shalast. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Phillip Gastone wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.
Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.
Come to my new city! First 100,000 get free Slippers of Spider climbing!

She better take a lot of apprentices, that's (at least) 300.000 man-hours of crafting, probably rather 500.000. ^^

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
magnuskn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Well, unless you count a mythic character from WotR who is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist, who presumably took the archmage mythic path. :p But since that is unspecified due to you guys not knowing party compositions of everybody who played WotR to the end, she probably is the most powerful arcane caster on Golarion. Although we still have to see the Whispering Tyrant's stat block. :)

That's still a lot of Disintegrates and Stone Shapes to cast, to get a decent road up to Xin-Shalast. ;)

We have actually seen the Tyrant's stats. They were in Mythic Realms

Dark Archive

He is CR 26 and I don't think he has pc level wealth(he does have wealth for his cr though) or PB 25.

Its kinda why I feel bit confused about his statblocks, he seems to have had regular heroic array before mythic tiers unless I'm missing something


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, I don't own that book. At CR 26 he's almost there with Sorshen.


The Whispering Tyrant traded the incredibly powerful archmage path for sucky mythic lich abilities. Made him much less powerful, but it was very appropriate for him and his backstory.

Even with Sorshen's mechanically poor mythic choices, she'd crush Tar. As would most mythic PCs.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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magnuskn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Well, unless you count a mythic character from WotR who is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist, who presumably took the archmage mythic path. :p But since that is unspecified due to you guys not knowing party compositions of everybody who played WotR to the end, she probably is the most powerful arcane caster on Golarion. Although we still have to see the Whispering Tyrant's stat block. :)

That's still a lot of Disintegrates and Stone Shapes to cast, to get a decent road up to Xin-Shalast. ;)

I don't count those potential characters at all because I've never run or played Wrath of the Righteous and thus those characters don't exist in my headcanon. And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon. Their existence is of course implied because the events of all Adventure Paths are assumed to have taken place, but we don't get to make the decisions about player characters—the only ones that matter in the end are the ones at your table who survived their adventures.

Sorshen is more powerful than the Whispering Tyrant though, that's for sure.


James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Well, unless you count a mythic character from WotR who is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist, who presumably took the archmage mythic path. :p But since that is unspecified due to you guys not knowing party compositions of everybody who played WotR to the end, she probably is the most powerful arcane caster on Golarion. Although we still have to see the Whispering Tyrant's stat block. :)

That's still a lot of Disintegrates and Stone Shapes to cast, to get a decent road up to Xin-Shalast. ;)

I don't count those potential characters at all because I've never run or played Wrath of the Righteous and thus those characters don't exist in my headcanon. And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon. Their existence is of course implied because the events of all Adventure Paths are assumed to have taken place, but we don't get to make the decisions about player characters—the only ones that matter in the end are the ones at your table who survived their adventures.

Sorshen is more powerful than the Whispering Tyrant though, that's for sure.

But can she withstand the might of Pun-Pun?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Phillip Gastone wrote:
But can she withstand the might of Pun-Pun?

There is no Pun-Pun. Just let it go.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

I don't count those potential characters at all because I've never run or played Wrath of the Righteous and thus those characters don't exist in my headcanon. And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon. Their existence is of course implied because the events of all Adventure Paths are assumed to have taken place, but we don't get to make the decisions about player characters—the only ones that matter in the end are the ones at your table who survived their adventures.

Sorshen is more powerful than the Whispering Tyrant though, that's for sure.

That all gets my thumbs up in all regards. I made clear to my players that their WotR characters would not be running around on Golarion but rather be drawn to other planes, because they kind of present the Superman problem ("Well, if the world is about to end, why don't characters X,Y and Z come in to save the day? They easily could!").

And since Sorshen and Nocticula together with Ameiko, Shalelu and Arueshalae are my favorite female characters in Pathfinder, I thoroughly approve of them kicking ass. :p


I never assume that past adventures took place- too much suspension of disbelief is involved for me.

Am I the only one disappointed by Arueshalae's redemption? It didn't seem much like her own choice, rather something Desna did for her. She's definitely Good (or at least CN) now, but less of her own volition and more because a literal goddess whispered in her ear and made her that way.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon.

The Sihedron Heroes are notionally player characters, and exist in the actual world canon.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheGreatWot wrote:

I never assume that past adventures took place- too much suspension of disbelief is involved for me.

Am I the only one disappointed by Arueshalae's redemption? It didn't seem much like her own choice, rather something Desna did for her. She's definitely Good (or at least CN) now, but less of her own volition and more because a literal goddess whispered in her ear and made her that way.

Desna gave her the opportunity to redeem herself. It was Aureshalae's actions and decisions along with the aid and support of Big Damn Heroes along the way that completed her arc. Without those things, she would have fallen back into evil. So its not like Desna dropped a Helm of Opposite Alignment on her, it was a moment for an outsider, a being literally composed of the evil alignment, being given an opportunity to choose good.

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon.
The Sihedron Heroes are notionally player characters, and exist in the actual world canon.

But who they are is not something we can say. The iconics stand in for them, but they also appear in so many other adventure paths as well. Seoni is 1st level, for example, in many different adventure paths, and that makes it difficult to say for sure which one is the "canonical" one.


Kasoh wrote:


Desna gave her the opportunity to redeem herself. It was Aureshalae's actions and decisions along with the aid and support of Big Damn Heroes along the way that completed her arc. Without those things, she would have fallen back into evil. So its not like Desna dropped a Helm of Opposite Alignment on her, it was a moment for an outsider, a being literally composed of the evil alignment, being given an opportunity to choose good.

Desna gave her the opportunity? A PC could go up to any demon and give them an opportunity to redeem themselves- the demon will still try to kill them. Desna did some meddling for sure.

Maybe I'm overestimating the inherent evilness in fiends. Nocticula did redeem herself with no direct deific intervention, although a lot of powerful mortals helped.


TheGreatWot wrote:
Kasoh wrote:


Desna gave her the opportunity to redeem herself. It was Aureshalae's actions and decisions along with the aid and support of Big Damn Heroes along the way that completed her arc. Without those things, she would have fallen back into evil. So its not like Desna dropped a Helm of Opposite Alignment on her, it was a moment for an outsider, a being literally composed of the evil alignment, being given an opportunity to choose good.

Desna gave her the opportunity? A PC could go up to any demon and give them an opportunity to redeem themselves- the demon will still try to kill them. Desna did some meddling for sure.

Maybe I'm overestimating the inherent evilness in fiends. Nocticula did redeem herself with no direct deific intervention, although a lot of powerful mortals helped.

Depend son the system and PC/DM choices. I seem to recall a system(Ares Magika I think) that wrote that in the AM world, Demons are more extensions of Hell rather than real creatures and so PCs are wasting their time at best and endangering themselves and others by trying to deal with them in anyway other than a face full of holy water


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Face full of holy water does all of 1d6 damage to fiends in Pathfinder.

:(


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This thread is amusing.

I think they should have a trial - find her guilty - and give her a life sentence of imprisonment for each person killed.

I suspect that 10,000 years already served might pretty much mitigate any potential sentence handed down though.

If this were the United States, present day - with time off for good behavior - I'm pretty sure the state would owe her money for time spent imprisoned unfairly.

/shrug


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I just find it irritating that the list of important redeemed characters in official pathfinder products is still skewed towards conventionally attractive female characters who are probably light skinned, dark haired, chaotic aligned, and probably associated with demons in some way (almost as if a certain memberof the staff has a type). I understand that there are plenty of non female non attractive characters who also get a shot at redemption, but the highest profile ones always seem to be.

Of all the Runelords of Thassilon throughout the entire history of the Empire the only canonicaly redeemed one I am aware of is Sorshen, who is a famously beautiful slender dark haired woman with pale skin. She's also historically speaking CE with ties to the Abyss.

Of all the Demon Lords of the Modern Era of Golarion the only canonicaly redeemed one I can think of is Noctulia, who is again, a famously beautiful slender dark haired woman with pale skin and is a succubus. You can't get more demonic than that.

Of all the ascended fiends in general the one who gets the most story focus that I've ever encountered is the Succubus whose name I can't pronounce from WoTR. Say it with me, she's a extremely beautiful slender dark haired woman with pale skin and is a succubus. If it sounds like I am repeating myself that is because I am.

I understand that Paizo may be trying to whitewash their early history so they don't come across as slut shaming for portraying certain evil woman as promiscuous, but if anything it comes across as patronizing. It makes it feel as though they don't believe beautiful women are capable of being heartless wretches, even though I am well aware there are plenty of examples of ones who are. It's just the way it makes me feel, and I can't help it.

I just want to see more variety in big names getting redeemed. I want to see Krune decide that malevolence gets in the way of relaxing and chill out. I want to see Haagenti feel that other demons don't appreciate his talents and try to find people who do. I want a Nabasu to murder Tsukiyo's priests and be cursed with a sense of justice.

I just want to be able to not know at a glance which character is most likely to have a heel-face turn in the not to distant future.


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Let's hope Arazni isn't the next candidate for redemption, then. I haven't read Tyrant's Grasp but if the trend you're describing continues, she'll probably be next. :p


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TheGreatWot wrote:
Let's hope Arazni isn't the next candidate for redemption, then. I haven't read Tyrant's Grasp but if the trend you're describing continues, she'll probably be next. :p

Oh, I bet we are in for some new lore about Arazni come 2E...with the events of Tyrant's Grasp as the catalyst.

Also, as Erudite Malefactor opined, there seems to be a "type" and Arazni fits the description, for the most part. Pure conjucture, obviously.

I'd have been much happier if they left them "as is", frankly. It's as if all these powerful evil entities cut from some "specific cloth" keep getting Mary Sue Makeovers.

Maybe Paizo can throw me a bone and have Iomedae fall from grace and takeover for Nocticula...


At least they're all connected in some way- Arueshalae influenced Nocticula's redemption, who in turn influenced Sorshen's. I was never a fan of the idea of "risen fiends", but I do like fallen celestials. There's some bias there on my part .


Never fear. Queen Thrune is still very stabbable in the face evil

Shadow Lodge

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Phillip Gastone wrote:
Never fear. Queen Thrune is still very stabbable in the face evil

In principle. Her plot armor is decameters thick.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheGreatWot wrote:
Let's hope Arazni isn't the next candidate for redemption, then. I haven't read Tyrant's Grasp but if the trend you're describing continues, she'll probably be next. :p

Having read book 4 of Tyrant's Grasp, the answer is a resounding 'maybe'

Tyrant's Grasp Book 4:
because Arazni duels Tar-Baphon then maybe actually dies in an elaborate suicide by nuclear bomb. Or gets sent back to Geb. Or becomes something else. Its vague and undefined. I'm not a fan of the AP so far, it this reads negative, that's why.

Anyway, people are just cherry picking their objectionable redeemable choices here, because they're all over. In Wrath, the one with the succubus, you can redeem an old lich runelord, an evil dwarf cleric, a halfling spy, a cowed barbarian (tribe) and more. Carrion Crown has a Vampire Paladin you can redeem. It goes on. There are plenty of evil people of all genders and varying levels of attractive, and varying levels of evil that you can turn away from the dark in these products if the PCs have the inclination.

And being good looking and female doesn't get you the option all the time either.

More APs:
Crimson Throne's Attractive Lady villain is in it to win it, No redemption for the Chelish Admiral in Skulls and Shackles, no such luck for the wife of the titular Mummy in Mummy's Mask, PCs can corrupt the Empress of Taldor and a couple of Paladins in Hell's Vengeance. As written in the book, I think the Nymph in Kingmaker is stuck being evil.


Kasoh wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Let's hope Arazni isn't the next candidate for redemption, then. I haven't read Tyrant's Grasp but if the trend you're describing continues, she'll probably be next. :p

Having read book 4 of Tyrant's Grasp, the answer is a resounding 'maybe' ** spoiler omitted **

Anyway, people are just cherry picking their objectionable redeemable choices here, because they're all over. In Wrath, the one with the succubus, you can redeem an old lich runelord, an evil dwarf cleric, a halfling spy, a cowed barbarian (tribe) and more. Carrion Crown has a Vampire Paladin you can redeem. It goes on. There are plenty of evil people of all genders and varying levels of attractive, and varying levels of evil that you can turn away from the dark in these products if the PCs have the inclination.

And being good looking and female doesn't get you the option all the time either. ** spoiler omitted **

Yes, but many of those people are people you can redeem, not people who are redeemed. No PC has to do anything to have Noctulia decide that being personification of evil is a bad thing. They do if the want

Spoiler:
The First Runelord if Wrath to do so.
Sorshen will show up in future material as being redeemed, but it's unlikely anybody who "might be" will.

Also, I'd like to clarify that I know that there are plenty of of attractive females who are evil, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a greater likelihood of redemption than others. There are still plenty of evil succubi hanging out in the abyss, but when was the last time you saw a risen dretch? Just because I noticed that canonical redemption of beautiful women is more common than other varieties doesn't mean that it is common in general.

Shadow Lodge

Personally, I didn't notice the whole "who-gets-redemption" issue until it was brought up here, but on the whole, I'm happy that a bunch of canonical evil people can stop being evil, and for the ones who refuse it, that's where the PCs step in. So they don't have to fight everyone.

Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.

...Then Belimarius will issue proclamations of, "No, she's still evil, you all see it, so why isn't anyone killing her? I'm pretty enough for redemption, where are all my accolades!?"


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.

So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^

Shadow Lodge

magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^

Yes, that's the joke.

And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^

Yes, that's the joke.

And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?

Perhaps she can pull a Mao-style Cultural Revolution and force the artists to become farmers....?

But, that might lead to a rather high body count, and subsequent slide back into Evil, so Tippy-style it is! Or, trade art for food...the Hold of Belkzan is starved for art, the orcs yearning for post-modern art pieces knows no bounds....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^
Yes, that's the joke.

It was a bit obtuse so I thought it could need some clearing up.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?

Presumably she'll take care of the amenities of life the same way she does take care of unclimbable mountain ranges: With magic.


magnuskn wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^
Yes, that's the joke.

It was a bit obtuse so I thought it could need some clearing up.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?
Presumably she'll take care of the amenities of life the same way she does take care of unclimbable mountain ranges: With magic.

Everyone gets Basic Income for everyday living with encouragement to add onto it with work.

Shadow Lodge

Phillip Gastone wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^
Yes, that's the joke.

It was a bit obtuse so I thought it could need some clearing up.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?
Presumably she'll take care of the amenities of life the same way she does take care of unclimbable mountain ranges: With magic.
Everyone gets Basic Income for everyday living with encouragement to add onto it with work.

Money does you no good if there's nothing to buy with it.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Money does you no good if there's nothing to buy with it.

So, "Brinewall quickly becomes a thriving port" and "land travel and trade between Varisia to the south and the Linnorm Kingdoms to the north flourishes."

The Nolands look to be the only part on the map with expansive farmable land, so presumably some of that takes place there. Mountainous region mostly, so I expect mining and other forms of mineral wealth to be extracted. Noticulism isn't the state religion, but pretty close, so we might expect holy sites and pilgramages etc.

Even without magic, a country with that much land is probably going to have things that need doing and trade that will keep happening.

People immigrating to Eurythnia might be artists, but people who aren't artists can also be outcasts. Tieflings from Cheliax, Half-orcs from Belkzen or wherever, Political refugees from Galt, the war torn from the Mendevian Crusades. People with varying skills and interests could make their way to engage in a trade or profession that will be in demand.


Kasoh wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Money does you no good if there's nothing to buy with it.

So, "Brinewall quickly becomes a thriving port" and "land travel and trade between Varisia to the south and the Linnorm Kingdoms to the north flourishes."

The Nolands look to be the only part on the map with expansive farmable land, so presumably some of that takes place there. Mountainous region mostly, so I expect mining and other forms of mineral wealth to be extracted. Noticulism isn't the state religion, but pretty close, so we might expect holy sites and pilgramages etc.

Even without magic, a country with that much land is probably going to have things that need doing and trade that will keep happening.

People immigrating to Eurythnia might be artists, but people who aren't artists can also be outcasts. Tieflings from Cheliax, Half-orcs from Belkzen or wherever, Political refugees from Galt, the war torn from the Mendevian Crusades. People with varying skills and interests could make their way to engage in a trade or profession that will be in demand.

"Boy, sure is great to have a new home after I had to flee due to being a seriel killer!" :^


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Given Eurythnia's position as a bastion of Noticula worship, they might have to contend with more than to be expected (for a city in the Inner Sea where there's at least one serial killer per settlement) assassins and former demonic worshippers of the former Demon Lord.


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Eurythnia is gonna turn into Civil War-Era Schrute Farms.

Shadow Lodge

As for the above, yeah, that's what I meant. Still, it'd be fun to watch Sorshen roll up her newfound sleeves and try to figure out modern Golarion geo-politics without trying to brainwash anyone.
Since Eurythnia was basically Thassilon's foreign quarter, I guess she'd already be well-versed in imports/exports. My wonder is how Edasseril's going to function, being a damaged, out-of-the-loop bureaucratic center with no rest-of-the-empire around it.

Shadow Lodge

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The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
My wonder is how Edasseril's going to function, being a damaged, out-of-the-loop bureaucratic center with no rest-of-the-empire around it.

You are describing 1920s Vienna. A situation which doesn't lead to good places.

It's already described as easily conquering its neighbors.


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Nobody ever said anything about not brainwashing people... she's just gonna do it more subtly this time around! Gotta avoid war. That stuff gets expensive, and cleaning up bodies is a hassle.


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TheGreatWot wrote:
Nobody ever said anything about not brainwashing people... she's just gonna do it more subtly this time around! Gotta avoid war. That stuff gets expensive, and cleaning up bodies is a hassle.

Gelatinous Cubes


Phillip Gastone wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Nobody ever said anything about not brainwashing people... she's just gonna do it more subtly this time around! Gotta avoid war. That stuff gets expensive, and cleaning up bodies is a hassle.
Gelatinous Cubes

Disposal pits with Green Slime...

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