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I disagree with Meirril. Force effects are not inherently damaging to handle- you can rub your face on a Wall of Force without being hurt, unlike a Wall of Fire. They're temporary pseudo-matter, and when they deal damage, it's because they're sharpened or moving at high speed. So I'd say you can catch a battering blast just fine.
On a more meta level, taxing mundanes to be able to interact with magic is not the direction Pathfinder needs to move in. We already have too much of that. The man paid his feat to catch balls; let him catch the magic ball.
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If we follow InvisiblePink's suggestion then every monk and almost every martial that can will take deflect arrow so they can be virtually immune to targeted spells...
... ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can’t be deflected.
Deflect Arrows says you can't deflect magic projectiles, so you can't. Rock Catching says you can catch rock-shaped projectiles, so you can catch rock-shaped projectiles even if they happen to be magic. Nowhere does it say they need to deal bludgeoning damage.
There's your rules for you. No logic required.
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That spell does not throw rocks, that's flavor text flat-out.
Besides, it doesn's specify how large the attack is, similarly the "ball" disappears after it's thrown and doesn't exist for all intents and purposes after the attack.
Battering Blast does Force damage, and the spell even describes it as "a ball of force" so no Rock Catching doesn't help at all.
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It's a "projectile of similar shape" to a rock. If you took a round rock and glued spikes to it, Rock Catching would still help you catch that.
Force objects are solid while they exist, unless you believe that I can simply walk through a Wall of Force or Emergency Force Sphere. You can catch it since it's solid for long enough to hit you, and then it disappears in your hand.
I'd rule the shape of a rock as being "vaguely round". While technically a rock can be any shape, rocks that are suitable for throwing tend to be roundish. I'd let you catch a Goblin Skull Bomb, but not a shuriken or an arrow.
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if the spell was force effect that deal B damage i might have agreed if it was big enough. but seeing that it deal force damage which is a kind of energy i say it's not solid enough to catch, like any other energy attack if you tried to catch it (fire or cold or acid balls would hurt your hand. so does this. )
you seem to only think of force effects as craerting force fields taht are hard (like mage armor and force wall) but they come in two variants. some hard. some are energy (think of it as liquid force? numerios small paricales of energy) magic missile for example.(it's not solid and deal P damage, it's energy and deal force energy damage)
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No dude, it doesn't matter if it's even rock shaped, the fact it the attack isn't a Projectile attack, neither does it actually throw a "Small, Medium, or Large" Rock at all.
This just flat out doesn't work on pretty much any level.
Rock Catching pretty clearly is meant to function against you know.. actual ROCKS or other physical objects that require a specific Size Category (To which their damage is tied) to function. The spell has NONE of those things, the only supporting flavor here is just that... flavor, not mechanics.
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Oh you don't need to rule that a rock suitable for throwing is roundish, rules actually do describe what a throwable "rock" looks like under Rock Throwing
"A rock is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5."
Balista bolts are large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped with a hardness of 5+ so clearly it is a rock and catchable along with virtually anything else that isn't just a chaotic blob of material.
Regular and regular shape are mathematical terms describing objects that have sides/faces that are equilateral and equiangular. Spherish rocks are roughly regular. Many boxes are roughly regular, but generally won't have the hardness (unless they're made of stone). A ball with spikes covering it is roughly regular. Ballista bolts do not come close.
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Regular is a mathematical term describing objects that have sides/faces that are equilateral and equiangular. Spherish rocks are roughly regular. Many boxes are roughly regular, but generally won't have the hardness (unless they're made of stone). A ball with spikes on it is even roughly regular. Ballista bolts do not come close.Oh you don't need to rule that a rock suitable for throwing is roundish, rules actually do describe what a throwable "rock" looks like under Rock Throwing
"A rock is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5."
Balista bolts are large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped with a hardness of 5+ so clearly it is a rock and catchable along with virtually anything else that isn't just a chaotic blob of material.
Regular also has a dictonary definition of "arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances."
You tell me whether the rulebook means regular in the dictionary or mathematical sense although I'll wager a guess the devs were not writing that particular rule with a copy of their old high school math textbook open to the glossary.
Your dictionary definition is talking about patterns and the arrangement of objects, so it doesn't really apply to the shape of a single object.
For whatever my opinion is worth, I don't think that Rock Catching ability would work on it.
Stephen I recommend asking your GM to make a ruling, or if you're the GM to make a ruling based on your gut.
My gut said "nah", yours might say something else.
zza ni, can you give me an example of a force spell that deals damage without relying on striking the target at speed, being sharp, or otherwise having a physical mechanism of injury?
My understanding of force effects is that they are essentially momentum or "substance" that happens to not have physical mass. But if there's an example of a force effect that causes harm merely by touching it without a physical mechanism of injury, similar to how cold or poison might, then my understanding must be wrong.
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I honestly want to know what elementary school you were going to where geometry was on the curriculum.
Either way, if you're telling me a spikey ball (which per your definition is about as irregular as you can possibly get) then I'm not seeing how a giant spike (aka a cone) is beyond the pale. Hell, they don't even have those pesky bits of irregular fletching (not that it matters since random spikes aren't enough to get past "roughly" evidently, so a few extra triangles on the end shouldn't either).
Yes, I learnt what squares, circles and octagons are in elementary, and an irregular octagon looks different than a regular octagon.
A sphere with many protruding cones whose tips are centered with the sphere approaches that of a star-shaped polygon. It has many faces that are the same shape and have roughly spherical symmetry. Perhaps I'm thinking of the ideal case where the cylinders are equidistant from each other and bleeding that into a nonideal case.
A single cone isn't regular. Its two faces are wildly different from each other in both shape and angle. A single cone attached to a cylinder isn't any better.
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I think Rock Catching relies on the fact that rocks are bulky, and wasn't intended on being useful for objects smaller than Small. If you've already decided that it can be used to catch Diminutive objects, can it be used on Fine spheres like bullets? This is my larger issue with your question.
As a GM, I'm fine with the ability working on spells using rock-shaped projectiles, and this spell in particular given that you've already extended Rock Catching's usefulness past Small.
I think Rock Catching relies on the fact that rocks are bulky, and wasn't intended on being useful for objects smaller than Small. If you've already decided that it can be used to catch Diminutive objects, can it be used on Fine spheres like bullets?
Battering Blast's projectiles are Small-rock-sized. A "Small" rock is a rock that is appropriately-sized for throwing by a Small creature, not a rock that is the size of a halfling. Golarion would be a funny world if Rock Catching allowed you to catch a thrown boulder the size of a Buick, which is what your interpretation logically suggests.
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IP; You've got it backwards man. The Rocks are not "Small-Large Weapons" they're X size OBJECTS in the same way that literally any other object is.
If you're throwing a Medium Sized Rock, you're throwing a Human Sized Rock, not a "Rock that's sized for a medium creature to throw."
... A creature can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than its size; for example, a Large hill giant can hurl Small rocks. A “rock” is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5.
You're either accidentally or willingly leaving out the important parts of the text. A Creature MUST be 2xCategories Larger than a Rock of any given size to throw it...
Huh. I guess you're correct.
This does leave the peculiarity that you can, apparently, catch (but not throw) a rock that's your own size if you're Large. But that's not the weirdest thing to happen in Pathfinder.
For whatever my opinion is worth, I don't think that Rock Catching ability would work on it.
Stephen I recommend asking your GM to make a ruling, or if you're the GM to make a ruling based on your gut.
My gut said "nah", yours might say something else.
I am the GM in this case, but I like to make sure I understand what the rules are before I decide how much I'm going to bend it.
Among other things that helps me decide how much CR increase I'm dealing with if any.
I was thinking I would make the DC to catch +5 for every size below Small, and probably another +5 for spells that are objects that can be caught.So a Tiny spike sphere of force would be DC 30 Reflex to catch.
Another way to go about it is to ask your players what they think is fair, and ask them not to metagame too much about the question.
At the end of the day the goal is for everyone to have fun. If your players will have more fun one way then you might run it that way. Or you might want it to be more challenging, so maybe you give an enemy a special version of rock catching that you say can do this.
As far as how much this affects CR rating....unless you players just love throwing this specific spell against the enemy to the exclusion of everything else I would say that allowing it to work is probably not worth increasing the effective CR at all.
zza ni, can you give me an example of a force spell that deals damage without relying on striking the target at speed, being sharp, or otherwise having a physical mechanism of injury?
My understanding of force effects is that they are essentially momentum or "substance" that happens to not have physical mass. But if there's an example of a force effect that causes harm merely by touching it without a physical mechanism of injury, similar to how cold or poison might, then my understanding must be wrong.
i kinda already did..magic missile is force spell. deal force energy damage. has nothing in it saying anything about "striking the target at speed, being sharp, or otherwise having a physical mechanism of injury"
-your welcomebtw it does say it 'darts' to the target but even acid arrow has the words "speeds to it's target" so how fast it goes is not any factor.(i think the magic missile flavor is more to point out it's unavoidable)
as i said above. force spells have two common ways they appear. as force energy damage which follow all energy damage rules (such as magic missile spell) and solid force objects that deal physical damage (such as force sword spell)
Magic Missile does strike the target at speed. Because it's a projectile. It might derive its damage from its abstract force-energy rather than the kinetic impact, but it also makes sense if we assume that it's just guided magical "pseudo-matter" moving pretty fast, and therefore proves nothing either way.
I'm asking for a spell like a force Wall of Fire or Noxious Cloud.
You cannot use Rock Catching to catch a Battering Blast. If it was meant to, it would say so in the spell description and/or the feat description.
You cannot use Rock Catching to catch a Battering Blast. If it was meant to, it would say so in the spell description and/or the feat description.Not really.
Rock Catching predates Battering Blast.
But as someone has already mentioned the comparative ability Deflect Arrows specifically says you can deflect ranged attacks, not just arrows, but not Magic generated ranged attacks. Rock Catching does not have any such restrictions.Spells don't generally try and cover every ability that could interact with them. If they did the spells would require several times as much space to write, and a lot more work.
Using Rock Catching to catch a Battering Blast is a non-sequitur. Rock Catching is from the Universal Monster Rules, so if you're going to suggest that Stone Giants and Hill Giants are proficient at catching Magic Force Balls because they're also proficient at catching rocks, then I dunno what to say other than that I seriously disagree.
Battering Blasts are ranged touch attacks, so as soon as it touches you, you get damaged. The only way to avoid this is to successfully dodge out of the way. It's actually impossible to "catch" them.
Giant, StoneThis giant has chiseled, muscular features and a flat, forward-sloping head, looking almost as if it were carved of stone.
Stone Giant CR 8
XP 4,800
N Large humanoid (giant)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +12DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 20 (+2 Dex, +11 natural, –1 size)
hp 102 (12d8+48)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +7
Defensive Abilities improved rock catchingOFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee greatclub +16/+11 (2d8+12) or 2 slams +16 (1d8+8)
Ranged rock +11/+6 (1d8+12)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rock throwing (180 ft.)STATISTICS
Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +9; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatclub), Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw
Skills Climb +12, Intimidate +12, Perception +12, Stealth +4 (+12 in rocky terrain); Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in rocky terrain
Languages Common, GiantSPECIAL ABILITIES
Improved Rock Catching (Ex)A stone giant gains a +4 racial bonus on its Reflex save when attempting to catch a thrown rock with rock catching. This ability otherwise works like the rock catching ability.
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It's still not possible to "catch" a battering blast. It detonates if it touches you at all, including if you "catch" it. It's like saying that a cactus can "catch" a water balloon.
That totally ignores the special properties of force damage. Insubstantial creatures are usually affected by force damage without any damage reduction. DR normally has no effect on force damage, or any other energy damage. Force damage is specifically a type of energy damage.
The way I interpret them, force effects are "kinetic energy or substance without real matter". They affect insubstantial creatures because whatever allows insubstantial creatures to phase through normal matter doesn't allow them to phase through the ideal "substance-ness" of force. It is "energy damage" in the same sense that kinetic force is a kind of energy. DR does not apply because it's a magically idealized form of kinetic energy.
If you need convincing, look at 10 different force effects. There will be a large discrepancy between what they do. The designers of the different spells will not agree with each other. Some imagine that force effects are sharp cutting effects. Some imagine they make nearly invincible barriers. Others that it can mimic natural attacks. Some think they mimic physical objects. And Magic Missile doesn't think the fluff was important enough to describe how it damages things. And Gravity based energy weapons do force damage. No substance is created, its just a beam of gravity. Does force damage.
Gravity-based energy weapons dealing force damage is something of a kludge in my view, but not wholly inconsistent either. It's, in effect, "momentum without matter" (please forgive me, physicists). But Battering Blast does rather explicitly create that idealized force-substance, and then launches it at the target at speed.
You haven't given me anything that would disprove or question my understanding of force effects; you've only given me things that one might choose to interpret as being against it, but which are equally explicable if one assumes my understanding instead.
It's still not possible to "catch" a battering blast. It detonates if it touches you at all, including if you "catch" it. It's like saying that a cactus can "catch" a water balloon.
Where in the spell description does it state that the projectile detonates at all? I've always pictured the spiked balls of force ramming into the target, then forcibly pushing them back with their remaining momentum.
The size argument is the only compelling argument I've seen against being able to do this. If you're willing to houserule that they can catch fist-sized objects (which I wouldn't do in my personal games), then I still believe it works.
The size thing is an interesting issue that is yet to be fully resolved. Would you allow this giant to catch a sling stone hurled by a halfling? Is that item a small stone because it was used as a weapon by a small creature? Or is it a diminuitive stone because that's literally the size of the object?
Is it reasonable for a giant to catch something this small? A battering blast is still big enough for him to see and notice, but at what point does it actually become cumbersome to catch? What if it were cast by a halfling, or a pixie? Imagine as a human using a rock-catching ability to try and grip and catch something the size of a BB coming your way.
I think that based on the size issue, this wouldn't be allowed. If the size of the force projectile were increased to actual small size then I think it would be back in consideration.
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The size thing is an interesting issue that is yet to be fully resolved. Would you allow this giant to catch a sling stone hurled by a halfling? Is that item a small stone because it was used as a weapon by a small creature? Or is it a diminuitive stone because that's literally the size of the object?
Is it reasonable for a giant to catch something this small? A battering blast is still big enough for him to see and notice, but at what point does it actually become cumbersome to catch? What if it were cast by a halfling, or a pixie? Imagine as a human using a rock-catching ability to try and grip and catch something the size of a BB coming your way.
I think that based on the size issue, this wouldn't be allowed. If the size of the force projectile were increased to actual small size then I think it would be back in consideration.
The stone is a Fine object, and he's already spent some of the thread explaining that he's okay with using Rock Catching on objects of this size.
It's still not possible to "catch" a battering blast. It detonates if it touches you at all, including if you "catch" it. It's like saying that a cactus can "catch" a water balloon.No, you are confusing it with Fireball which says -
"A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely."There is no such language for Battering Blast.
Indeed all the language indicates that the Battering Blast does not explode but stays intact Bullrushing targets after doing damage, including attempting a strength check to knock down a door target after doing damage to the Door.-----------------------------
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm not confusing anything. If there's anyone in this thread who's confused, it's you my friend. Battering Blast is Instantaneous duration, so it flies at your target at twice the speed of Gimme Ur Loot and blasts the target, sending them backwards with a successful Bull Rush attempt.
Here's the steps:
PC: "I'm casting Battering Blast"
DM: "Okay, make a Ranged Touch Attack"
PC: "I rolled a 17 to Touch"
DM: "That hits, roll for damage and your CMB to Bull Rush"
You hurl a fist-sized ball of force resembling a sphere of spikes to ram a designated creature or object. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike your target. On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.
A creature struck by any of these is subject to a bull rush attempt.
You'll notice that the spell doesn't say this:
You hurl a fist-sized ball of force resembling a sphere of spikes to ram a designated creature or object. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike your target. On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6) unless the target has Rock Catching, then the Battering Blast duration is no longer Instantaneous and the balls of force that are caught can be thrown like rocks. For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.
A creature struck by any of these is subject to a bull rush attempt.