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You are correct- the Shaman can do everything when it comes to magic.
But it can't do it all better than the established classes. You won't beat a dedicated sorcerer blaster in spell damage, won't heal as much as a Life oracle, won't debuff as well as a Mesmerist, and so on.
Is the Shaman a super versatile, incredibly malleable base class, able to fill basically any role in the party? Yes. Is it outright better than any other class in their best niche? No. Every class (with the possible exception of the Shifter) has a particular role where it is king, and the great thing about Pathfinder is how, with some tweaking and prodding, just about any class can fill just about any role.
Probably the best comparison I can give is to the Bard: the bard has decent healing, good skills, great buffing, decent melee, alright blasting, and so on. The Shaman is just that idea, being proficient in all areas, just extrapolated up to a full caster.
Pretty much agree, in that I find breadth and flexibility as full caster more useful than 'maximal specialization' which doesn't really seem necessary or critical to adventuring. Overall it's just comfortable to play, customizable to fill niches in party composition while enabling a wide range of potential directions. The spontaneous slot AND normally preppable Spirit Magic feels like how Cleric Domains should have worked from the beginning, giving you better chance to use all the spells. I never liked PFS but can see it shining there because of it's adaptability to different roles depending on party composition.
As far as Unsworn, I think it didn't live up to promise in comparison to every other Shaman taking Spirit Talker. Although perhaps my analysis is skewed given I also tend to really like Speaker For the Past Archetype which gives up Wandering Spirit in exchange for Ancestor/Time Oracle Revelations and Spells for different kind of flexibility/breadth.
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In my Skull and Shackles group, I play a shaman who is the only spellcaster (aside from one 4-level caster) in a party of 5, and I think shaman is probably the best class in the game for the Your-only-spellcaster-in-a-party-of-five role. He is almost entirely packed with spells to enable and improve his comrades and the party as a whole, from all three of the lists the OP mentions. But in some groups, a less generalist caster would be a lot more helpful.
Shamans are pretty stellar, but I'd say a Wizard or Druid has them beat in sheer utility.
I think a gestalt shaman and wizard would be a tier 0 character.
Depending on your stats, anyway. I don’t think there’s any pure int-based Shaman archetypes, so trying to maximize both Wisdom and Intelligence could lead to issues.
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I mean, for me, what this thread points to is kind of my issue with the Shaman. For me, the class is pulled in so many different directions at once I haven't been able to come up with a build that a) matches the concept I have in my head and b) works well.
Like I have players who adore the class, I just can't seem to make it work for me.
I think by default, any Gestalt char is already tier 0. Unless you pick Vow of Poverty Monk + Fighter or something literally designed to suck.
I think by default, any Gestalt char is already tier 0. Unless you pick Vow of Poverty Monk + Fighter or something literally designed to suck.Naw most gestault options will only bump a character up a tier or two not make them teir 0, for that you need 2 full casters.
Shaman is a full caster. With hexes instead of mediocre bloodline/domain abilities.
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I think by default, any Gestalt char is already tier 0. Unless you pick Vow of Poverty Monk + Fighter or something literally designed to suck.Naw most gestault options will only bump a character up a tier or two not make them teir 0, for that you need 2 full casters.
A gestalt of two full casters can only act as one or the other in any given round.
A truly strong gestalt uses the full abilities of both classes every round.
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I just hate the design of the thing. Most of the versatility resides in one racial heritage and one spirit choice. As soon as you play a non-human, non-lore shaman, you become much, much more limited. And that's just bad design in my opinion.
If you define 'best' by personal preference, I certainly agree that the Shaman is one of the bigger contenders for that title, at least to me. I favor the classes with 3/4 BAB 6+ level spellcasting, and the ability to harness a wide range of abilities to allow them to participate in nearly everything. I truly do NOT care how big the numbers you swing are, as long as they can handle CR appropriate encounters.
I just hate the design of the thing. Most of the versatility resides in one racial heritage and one spirit choice. As soon as you play a non-human, non-lore shaman, you become much, much more limited. And that's just bad design in my opinion.
You're absolutely right. Problem is that the flexibility of that choice is so dramatically better than anything else that I suspect Paizo would nerf it, rather than ever introduce anything else similar to it.
I've been increasingly drawn to flexible, variable characters with less overall power. The Akashic ruleset has proved very fun, if you like fiddly bits. The ability to shape different veils for different situations has been really, really fun and most similar to the shaman I played through Hell's Rebels.
I'm really enjoying playing my PFS shaman, who just reached 11th level after last night's scenario. Nar-Lok is a half-orc heavens shaman; his sacred tattoo alternate racial trait and Fortune's Favored background trait have ensured that he has had great saves since 1st level. He also snagged prayer from the cleric list (via favored class bonus) as soon as he could, but ironically, since he already has a +2 luck bonus to saves, and rarely if ever makes weapon attacks, it's still better for his allies than for him.
His usual default for wandering spirit is Life, for the channeling (albeit only 2/day due to middling Cha) and packing breath of life. (He always keeps one prepared, regardless.) If we have a dedicated healer at the table, he'll switch off to another spirit (most often fire).
But he's definitely not good at everything, or even a lot of things. He's indifferent at best in melee combat--honestly, he's wasting everyone's time if he's doing that instead of using a spell or hex. And he lacks the Int and skill points to be an expert at more that 2 or 3 skills, so when he earned a boon that gave him access to a unique improved familiar, I gave it the sage familiar template just to give him access to much better Knowledge checks.
Shaman is a badly designed class in that it takes a lot of the good points from both its parent classes and none of the downsides.
It has OP elements to it but is definitely not near the strongest 9th level caster although it is v.versatile.
Its issues:
1) The big one ironically is also one of its strong points - Arcane Enlightenment. The problem is that the entire class is basically designed on the assumption that you 100% will take Arcane Enlightenment as a hex. This instantly transforms the class to being the most MAD of the 9ers.... you need to invest in WIS, CHA and INT. This is before you have even thought about your physical stats..... a problem when you consider your poor FORT and REF saves.
When you consider the standard 20 point build this can be problematic.
Because of the assumption that you 100% will take AE hex which is a strong ability, the designers then understandably force you take sacrifices in your build. These are reflected in the rest of the class design
2) The basic spell list is crap. Probably the worst of the 9ers.
3) In order to get the precious FCB spells from the cleric list you are streamed into a fairly narrow race choice plus its 1 spell per level of a spell 1 level below that which you can cast, so it doesnt start till 3rd. Also you can no longer pick up an extra SP/HP.
4) Prestige classing is a bad choice because you are dependent on picking up class abilities as you level up.
The problem is that the entire class is basically designed on the assumption that you 100% will take Arcane Enlightenment as a hex.
I sincerely doubt the rules designers sat down and wrote up the class under that assumption. It may have ended up that way because they didn't really think through the combination of wandering hex and hexes that require a "permanent" choice, but it probably wasn't intentional.
Then again, I'm not really sure what the design team was going for. It doesn't really fill a niche that isn't already filled elsewhere.
The problem is that the entire class is basically designed on the assumption that you 100% will take Arcane Enlightenment as a hex.I sincerely doubt the rules designers sat down and wrote up the class under that assumption. It may have ended up that way because they didn't really think through the combination of wandering hex and hexes that require a "permanent" choice, but it probably wasn't intentional.
Then again, I'm not really sure what the design team was going for. It doesn't really fill a niche that isn't already filled elsewhere.
Yeah, being that most of the options in the ACG are on the lower side of the power curve, I think AE was more of an oversight than anything. The FCB had the same problem and didn't even get a playtest.
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I personally agree with Firebug's assessment of the OP's description. The shaman *can* do anything, but not all at once. Yes, it is versatile in how you build it, but that versatility isn't as at-the-same-time accessible like some wizard and druid builds are.
Don't get me wrong, I think shaman is a good class. I think it might be a low-key improvement on its parent classes (well, kinda, I like the witch's flavor too much to say that, and I have a personal dislike of the oracle that biases my opinion somewhat), and I think that it can have a few really neat tricks and abilities if carefully selected...buuuuut I still think a wizard or druid might be more versatile in the day-to-day.
I think Arcane Enlightenment is a trap option, unless the game has a very generous stat generation system. IMHO, for most games, the first step to creating an effective shaman is to pretend that Arcane Enlightenment doesn't exist.
It's not as hard as you think to get the stats you need, because of stat boosting items. And the shaman even has a hex for making wondrous items, so it's not unlikely for them to have the headband of mental prowess.
4) Prestige classing is a bad choice because you are dependent on picking up class abilities as you level up.
Isn't that kind of true about every post-CRB class which is not one of those really pre-loaded martial classes?
Like I don't want to take PrCs with Oracles, Inquisitors, Witches, Occultists, Maguses, Spiritualists, Arcanists, etc. either.
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It's not as hard as you think to get the stats you need, because of stat boosting items. And the shaman even has a hex for making wondrous items, so it's not unlikely for them to have the headband of mental prowess.
Maybe one day, someone will post an effective build using Arcane Enlightenment; until then, I remain unconvinced. It would need to be better than a conventional Speaker for the Past Shaman, who already gets access to Haste and Heroism.
Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman’s native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
So, charisma isn't "that" needed, but it is nice if you want to have more versatility. But you'll need a decent intelligence to cast the higher level wizard spells. I use this 20 point buy array: STR: 8 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 14 CHA: 14. The floating +2 will obviously go to wisdom.
With an intelligence of 14, you can cast spells from the wizard up to level 4, with level 5 not being available till class level 9. A headband of mental prowess (Int/Wis) +2 should be easily affordable by that level. Ultimately, the necessary headband should never be more than a quarter of your wealth by level. And the cost is even halved if you took the fetish hex, which you really should have done by that level.
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I like just the basic schtick, because otherwise there is no good option for caster-Druid or generic nature-y caster if you don't like classic Druid stand-bys and Fey Sorceror or Witch isn't quite it. It feels nature-y while being comfortable fighting the UN-natural and dealing with world of magic which Druid doesn't really, which is entirely flavor about how you magically interact with world, not mechanics & numbers. Maybe the base list alone is not super "impressive" (if one finds that necessary to play the game) but of course it's augmented at least 3 different ways so I never had problem with variety of worthwhile engaging effects to cast with spells & powers. The blend of Spontaneous/Prepared feels like one of best in game. Mixing and matching of themes is highly accessible.
So for me, what I like best about the shaman is that I prefer the idea of playing a divine caster who is an animist, a pantheist, a polytheist, etc. than one who is a henotheist (i.e. I don't want to play a cleric.) I find that to be a much more interesting creative space to RP in.
I just find the mechanics of the class get in the way.
I have a shaman, she's level 6 and I didn't take all the OP options in the OP. She is a ton of fun to play and very versatile in a group that lacks a blaster and a good healer.
You know, Clerics don't necessarily need to worship a god? You can choose to follow a philosophy, an ideal, or a pantheon if you wish. You don't get a favored weapon, but you get to choose any 2 domains you wish to (but alignment domains must match your alignment).
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval).
Odd phrasing, since in theory everything is subject to GM approval...
I know PFS doesn't allow it.
In my Skull and Shackles group, I play a shaman who is the only spellcaster (aside from one 4-level caster) in a party of 5, and I think shaman is probably the best class in the game for the Your-only-spellcaster-in-a-party-of-five role. He is almost entirely packed with spells to enable and improve his comrades and the party as a whole, from all three of the lists the OP mentions. But in some groups, a less generalist caster would be a lot more helpful.
I agree shamans are very flexible casters and a good choice for the only spellcaster.
But consider a witch. Also flexible casters though less so than a shaman. Witch hexes are much better offensively than the shamans. And because offensive hexes can normally be used once/ opponent, ie they almost never run out, a witch can use the hexes for offence most of the time. This means they will keep going longer than most nay other caster, as they can use hexes instead of spells a lot of the time.
So a witch is another excellent choice in a caster-poor party.
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In my Skull and Shackles group, I play a shaman who is the only spellcaster (aside from one 4-level caster) in a party of 5, and I think shaman is probably the best class in the game for the Your-only-spellcaster-in-a-party-of-five role. He is almost entirely packed with spells to enable and improve his comrades and the party as a whole, from all three of the lists the OP mentions. But in some groups, a less generalist caster would be a lot more helpful.I agree shamans are very flexible casters and a good choice for the only spellcaster.
But consider a witch. Also flexible casters though less so than a shaman. Witch hexes are much better offensively than the shamans. And because offensive hexes can normally be used once/ opponent, ie they almost never run out, a witch can use the hexes for offence most of the time. This means they will keep going longer than most nay other caster, as they can use hexes instead of spells a lot of the time.
So a witch is another excellent choice in a caster-poor party.
Some of the utility spells I've needed, a witch couldn't provide (witch is a good choice too though!). And the one witch hex combined with overlap hexes generally give pretty good hex support. Now if he wasn't a Waves shaman, he could be better, I'll grant, since Waves is so bad even at a pirate game, but the thematics were too cool and at least my GM let me make some adjustments to the Waves spirit to be better at actually fighting in and underwater (which I eventually sent in to be officially published in Aquatic Adventures). Deep Shaman is one of the few things I've written that intentionally is just pretty much stronger than the original after how lackluster Waves was at Skull and Shackles.
I think AE was more of an oversight than anything. The FCB had the same problem and didn't even get a playtest.
I don't remotely believe anything that is so potentially powerful relative to the other class features was an "oversight"
You know, Clerics don't necessarily need to worship a god? You can choose to follow a philosophy, an ideal, or a pantheon if you wish. You don't get a favored weapon, but you get to choose any 2 domains you wish to (but alignment domains must match your alignment).If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval).Odd phrasing, since in theory everything is subject to GM approval...
I know PFS doesn't allow it.
For what that's worth.
I think AE was more of an oversight than anything. The FCB had the same problem and didn't even get a playtest.I don't remotely believe anything that is so potentially powerful relative to the other class features was an "oversight"
Why?
No, they can take a witch hex. They can choose from the hexes but it's not exactly like they can keep doing it. They can't take witch only hexES
I'm not going to dig to double-check but I seem to recall that via a feat it's possible to take one witch-only hex. But if I'm misremembering, I won't be shocked.
I think by default, any Gestalt char is already tier 0. Unless you pick Vow of Poverty Monk + Fighter or something literally designed to suck.Naw most gestault options will only bump a character up a tier or two not make them teir 0, for that you need 2 full casters.
And even that can be a bit questionable.
The key problem is that, while a caster has to face issues of their spell list's utility and number of slots... higher level casters are more restricted by action economy- A high level wizard is already going to cast a spell and a quickened spell in the same turn.
A good gestalt tends to collect class features that feed off of eachother. Like a sorcerer focused in charm spells (higher level spells for DC, blood lines to boost them further) that grabs mesmerist for swift action debuffs to will saves (and various other goodies).