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If you seriously concentrate on building a character around summoning they can get very strong indeed.

I built a Master Summoner that had its origin in seeing a build, by Mercadior I think, and thinking "I can improve on this". By methodically adding to your summoned creatures power, even if the improvement is not so large in itself, the strategy gets very powerful.

Eventually statements like this "It is quite easy to overrun the board with weak summoned creatures. The thing is they are weak summoned creatures." seem hopelessly wrong. I would bring out some kind of feline with multiple attacks that had decent chances to hit.

And if you are not playing a master summoner, and my GM comes down with all the symptoms of typhoid if the idea is floated, the strategy can likewise be made very powerful. It is not so easy, but you are a full caster as well, rather than a half caster. Cauldrons are great as are rods of giant summoning.

Liked the guide. Would like to discuss if anyone is listening out there.

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The whole idea is never going to produce an optimal character.

If you want to be a pure full arcane caster and go into melee regularly the best idea I can think of is Witch [Ashtifah].

Choose a race with a natural attack and take -

"Hex Strike (Combat)
Chanting and cursing, you put a hex on your enemy as part of your unarmed strike.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose one hex that you can use to affect no more than one opponent. If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen hex to that opponent. Doing so does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

You want the natural attack to save the need to spend a feat. At level 2 you get this-

Ghostwalk (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as a move action after using a hex, an ashiftah can become invisible as per vanish APG and can then take a 5-foot step. Using ghostwalk doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

This allows you to hit and vanish. Then do it again.

The bad news is your HP and BaB still suck. One level of swashbuckler for oportune parry and repost will help.

Remember if you try all this and die anyway I did tell you it is a long way from optimal.

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Basically I want something thats hard support and a musician and performer before anything else.

As of now the only thing I found that fits this is the duettist, but I'm open to other suggestions

If you get a warhorse put in a claim for being able to benefit from its barding as well as your mount. Makes sense right?

But you may well be bardfrom combat heavy campaigns. Then again you could do well in campaigns set in australia, which tend to be wombat heavy.

I hope you get on better with such logical claims than I do. I am still searching for a DM who will allow me to max out KS Local and use it for every skill roll made in the local area. I don't know what the problem can possibly be and the logic is clear.

I have not had much luck playing a quadruped and claiming 2 bonus feats either. Bloody GMs...

Azothath wrote:

it's nice that you're artistic.

I'm still waiting for the new british aerobics to catch on in the gym.

I was definitely right.

We are still amused. The violins on TV sketch was great.

Melkiador wrote:
So many people build their characters as lone orphans, so their family can't be used against them. I see things from the other side. If my family is being used against me, then I'm important to the story.

Melkiador- that might be the case if you were a human or halfling or something.

But you are a f###ing crocodile.

Crocodiles lay gigantic piles of eggs that result in gazillions of tiny, almost microscopic crocodiles. The overwhelming majority of these get eaten by birds, fish, snakes and most of all, especially once they reach any decent size, other crocodiles.

The way to use a crocodile's family against them is to get hold of a younger member, poison it and toss it in the water near you. You will then eat it and become an ex-crocodile, an un-crocodile that has ceased to be. A stiff mate.

HobgoblinLiker13 wrote:
Meanwhile I just pull girls by being severely autistic and a vessel for a hostile, invasive extradimensional resonance

We are amused.

I think I have found a like minded individual. That is to say one who has to keep their sense of humour in check on a site like this where young impressionable people may be reading.

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Melkiador wrote:
I'd be tempted to go with wizard or alchemist for the immortality.

Me, by contrast, would go for Druid or Paladin for the immorality, as explained in my last post.

Melkiador wrote:
Like, a specific character never suffers any danger, while those around them are constantly dying or nearly dying. Or worse, a specific character gets all the best loot, usually because it has been tailor made for their character.

Melkiador, everything you say is true imho. I seem to remember a Melkiador who was on these forums around a decade ago when I was really active here. And he always seemed to have his screwed on the right way, which is a little odd for a reptile.

Or maybe it was someone with a similar name or ikon.

One thing all you say is most of these phenomena are just not good enough on the GMs part. Generally anyway.

When I can see paying very different attention to players is in a similar situation to what I encountered coaching at my old chess club some years back.

I had one dream student named David Barry. He was young, ambitious, somewhat socially isolated so gave a lot of time to chess, worked hard on his game and was playing multiple rated games a week. I took him from around 1100 to around 1750 in 18 months, which included some breaks.

If you know what the numbers mean, and most of you will not, no I am not the world's best chess coach and Magnus Carlsen did not become world champion because he sacked Kasparov as coach and got me instead. David made huge progress because he worked hard, did nearly everything I told him to and came every week, always on time. A coach is like a teacher, you can help someone to learn but you can do little by yourself.

The only other person who came more than once or twice was Lucian Penis, who showed up infrequently and always late.

Naturally, after a while I essentially taught David and anyone else there mostly just listened though I was polite and answered questions. Before long, anything David didn't already know was way beyond anyone else who showed up.

Sometimes RPG campaigns have their Davids, dedicated players always there and attentive, and others who show up sometimes and pay attention sometimes. The GM is justified in giving his dedicated players more attention.

Otherwise playing favourites is among the worst GM flaws.

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A druid with wild shape and polymorph self. Just think, you could have sex with absol... uh, sorry, I mean a paladin . Strong, powerful, noble and you have to be good looking and charming to a high degree. And because of your mandatory alignment you would be universally trusted and liked and you have to rescue damsels in distress. You would get so much puss .. sorry, sorry. Somebody else has been messing with my post honest. What I mean is you would be universally well liked and admired and have the opportunity to do so many good deeds.

I am 62 and have been playing D&D and the like since 1978 or 1979.

Back in the good old days, that were not nescessarily so good, female role players were rare and were usually the GMs girlfriend.

This lead to me formulating 3 rules to deal with such campaigns. Don't expect the GM to be objective and never, never get into a conflict with the GM's girlfriend and always be nice to the GMs girlfriend.

I have played in campaigns that lead me to advocate for a law that nobody should GM for anyone they are bonking.

Since the bad old days, the world has had a sanity attack and it is actually entirely normal for role playing groups to include... girls.

Incidentally, playing favourites among players is among the worst, or the worst, of GM flaws. Everyone makes rules, logical, or continuity mistakes at times. In fact they are likely going on by the thousand w/o anyone knowing or caring.

The very worst example of bias in GMing I have ever seen involved 2 friends [I am pretty sure they were not a gay couple] and reads like a joke campaign made up parody of GM bias.

I will relate some examples of the GM, KC GMing for MP.

1 Every single thing MP did in multiple campaigns turned out roses. MP would often make trivial errors like going off by himself and having encounters designed for the whole party, not to mention turning the session into one for him alone.

2 KC ran a Star Wars campaign where, at the end, a dying sith gave the galaxy to MP. The party were the siths most persistent enemies and MP was a long way from being the most combat capable PC, so MP couldn't enforce his control over the galaxy over most of the characters in the party, let alone the galaxy.

3 KC always acted like MP was the party leader so he always was.

4 KC actually ran a highly overcrowded campaign where, as always, MP could play the whole session solo if he wanted to. All the other "players" would be left doing nothing for an entire session unless MP ordered them to do something. If they announced actions it would be ignored or quickly go nowhere.

Bizarrely KC was otherwise a good GM. I am pretty sure KC got on just as well as MP did when the other was GMing.

I think I am in love.

That is the suitable for all ages version.

And I am a guy.

I had difficulty finding a name that wasn't taken, so I tried a character from one of my favourite songs, Joynt Juke Jezebel by KMFDM. If industrial rock is your thing, google it and have a listen. Don't do it when you are feeling down though as it is kinda depressing.

Then I picked a female cool image to go with the cool female name. Then... regretted it.

It turned out I spent a lot more time on this site than I expected when I took on the ID. Add the fact I am a freak who often plays female characters and everyone thinks I am a girl.

Don't apologize. It is neither offensive nor your fault.

I like her.

A character with, well character and a definite style that relates well with what she can do in the game.

If I met her I would try to hit on her given a little encouragement. :)

thelemonache wrote:
I've never heard of Ashtifah! what a cool archetype!

You catch on fast. Witch is my favourite class to play and Ashiftah is close to, if not the, best archetype. And it works particularly well with your concept of being able to run around as a fox.

It is this which is best about the archetype-

"Ghostwalk (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as a move action after using a hex, an ashiftah can become invisible as per vanishAPG and can then take a 5-foot step. Using ghostwalk doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

This ability replaces the hex gained at 2nd level."

thelemonache wrote:
Swift Kitsune shapechanger is the feat, its the prereq for vulpine pounce.

My mistake. I thought you were referring to the Fast Shifter alternate racial trait. And you have the things the right way around, because superior shifter gives you the fox shape feat, where fast shifter is inferior to the swift kitsune shapechanger feat.

The bad news is you won't be reaching BaB +10 any time soon.

thelemonache wrote:
My worry with the witch archetype is that it might cover up my bite attack if I have to wear a veil right?

You will have to ask your GM about that.

If they say you can't bite with the veil on you can see about taking-

"Natural Finesse: Sophisticated kitsune hone graceful and precise movements at the expense of their skill with their natural attacks. The kitsune gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces natural weapons."

It is 3rd party so you will need your GMs approval for that too.

thelemonache wrote:

Core character concepts:
ROLE - melee with the option to shoot on surprise rounds, high rogue-like skills (disable/slight/acro) and magic traps. A big focus on stealth. I want a damage source that is irrelevant to size, like kinetic blast and sneak attack. Reach is good too.

Being tiny makes stealth real easy. sneak attack does damage w/o needing str.

thelemonache wrote:

CLASS 2: a trap springer class (so unchained rogue, slayer, trapper ranger, either of the seekers) the popular campaign trait for traps is not an option.

Not sure what "trap springer class" class means. I would look at unchained rogue and ninja and choose one.

thelemonache wrote:

CLASS 3 - one level of Mouser so that I can flank inside enemy squares

Underfoot Assault is very powerful and looks well worth the 1 level dip.

thelemonache wrote:

RACE: Kitsune for free fox shape,

This is your whole concept which means this

thelemonache wrote:

3. Vulpine pounce/swift kitsune shapechanger - this is why people play kitsune right??

is not on. Free fox shape and swift shapechanger both replace kitsune magic so it is one of only.

What I have in mind is an arcane trickster. What you want is 3 levels of witch (ashtifah), one of swashbuckler (mouser) and 1 of either ninja or unchained rogue.

What I suggest you do is look at the classes mentioned, especially witch (ashtifah). Look at ninja, unchained rogue and what achetype/s appeal and which one you want.

Then we can talk some more.

Mokmurian the Great- I too am submitting a witch, Boudacia, CG Bloodmarked Skinchanger Witch (Ashtifah) level 1.

The character is not finished. I want to know who I am adventuring with before I finalise skills, spells, equipment and maybe even the campaign trait.

I still have the familiar on the sheet though being an Ashiftah I don't have one. I want the stats for when I use bat shape.

But my familiar for the older character pioneered what is, to my knowledge, a new idea. My familiar, a bat named Wayne, had his parents murdered when the family was robbed by a [bat] criminal. Understandably, this has left him with a burning hatred of criminals and criminality and he plans to become a vigilante when fully adult and ready.

To this end, he intends to harness animals fear of man by dressing up as a human being. And that is why he has become a familiar, to gain enough knowledge of human society and behavior to pull this off.

When he is satisfied with his knowledge, he will return to his city of origin and launch his war on crime. This is a city where most of the population are androgynous, cross dressing pigs who all wear doc martens. It is called Goth Ham city. Thoughts?

I would like to help.

However, my only experience with the kineticist class was when a fellow player did, or at least said he could do, something so OP they have been banned in our games since. And if you are wedded to the Terrokineticist idea my advice would be ask someone else. Preferably someone who knows something useful.

If you are interested in how to make an effective arcane trickster kitsune with fox shape feat to start I can make suggestions there.

Derklord wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up?

Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.

Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex.

I have a law degree and used to be a solicitor, therefore am the perfect rules lawyer. And Derklord is dead right in reasoning and conclusion imho.

Further, When the taking of a hex at a level is compulsory Paizo phrase it differently, for example from the Bouda archetype:-

"Bouda’s Eye (Su)
This hex must be taken as a bouda’s 1st-level hex, and only a bouda can take this hex."

And the Winter
Witch Prestige class:-

"Winter Hex
Starting at 5th level, whenever a winter witch can choose a major hex, she must choose from the following hexes:

ice tomb
numbing chill (see below)
Once the winter witch has selected all three winter hexes, she may thereafter choose any other hex she meets the prerequisites for."

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
That's kind of tough. The original Juju (if I understand this right) was meant as an NPC for some AP or scenario of some sort. I'm not sure most DMs allow it as a PC class, because it is rather over-powered. So I'm hesitant to rate the Oracle class based on it, or honestly on a 3rd party mystery.

Since Spirit Vessels has not been banned by Paizo or altered by errata, I personally would include it in rating the class but note that many GMs won't allow it.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I just updated "Lion Shaman" to "Lion Shaman & Saurian Shaman" -- those are in fact the best choices. And totemic summons is already specifically called out.

One of the Druid guides goes into raptures over the Saurian Shaman and I think he is right about this. Lion Shamans can use Totemic Summons to call felines and Draconic Shamans Lizards. But the Saurian Shaman gets dinosaurs and reptiles which gives them many more options, which makes it the best of the 3 imho.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Of the categories we rated, I think the "Class Feature Score" best matches what you're talking about with hexes. And the druid & witch rate a 10.

I do like the Ashiftah witch quite a bit. Do you think any of our ratings should be adjusted in light of her?

If I was going to write a guide it would be to the Witch class. I might have done so if PF 1st ed wasn't being gradually replaced by 2nd ed.

The existing guides are OK but they are all rather dated and none of them go into how to play the class correctly. So I tend to go on as I did in my last post at any opportunity.

Since the Witch deservedly gets the maximum for class features I don't think a change is needed.

I too am interested. I have played in some good online campaigns but they all finished prematurely. :(

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Northern Spotted Owl-

I have looked at your guide and spreadsheet. There is little if anything I would say is wrong, but some things I think that could be added.

Going by class on which I have something to say.


Oracles can be completely different depending on the mystery selected.

The Ju-ju Oracle, the one that gets the Spirit Vessels revelation, is one of the best necromancers in the game by dint of that mystery alone and gets some other good stuff as well.

The 3rd party Snakes Mystery gets to be a powerful summoner by taking one
revelation Snake Summoner. The other revelations are good too making this a fine choice if allowed.


I think the Saurian Shaman archetype deserves to be called out as powerful and flexible.

The totemic summons gives great power and flexibility to your SNA. You can add feats to make SNA better still and get hold of a Rod of Giant Summoning asap.

A sly trick is to take the Destruction domain and when eventually you can summon Cylopes you have a deadly combination that costs not a lot to set up.

Finally, the bonus feats you eventually get while wild shaped promise added combat power. Your wild shape lacks the flexibility of many other druids but you can't have everything.


The Ashiftah archetype is wondrous.

Witches excell where due to a small or strangely constituted party the caster/s are overworked. If you take the extreme example, if the party has only one caster the best choice imho is a witch.

Firstly, just because witches have more healing magic on their list than other arcane casters does not mean you don't need a divine caster. You do. But if you have a witch with a wand of CLW you go a fair way to covering for the lack.

Secondly, the fact hexes don't run out gives witches a lot of stamina. You solve problems with hexes when you can and preserve your spells for the problems you can't. And if you are out of spells, it isn't the disaster it would be for, say, a wizard as you still have your hexes.

Faolán Maiali the Azure Abjurer wrote:

I know for a fact I want this Oracle to have the Time mystery, and I'm giving them the Dual-Cursed Oracle archetype, with Haunted for their advancing curse, and Tongues for their second curse. Their alignment is going to be NG.

Feat-wise, I'm not sure what to go for here, other than taking Extra Revelation twice so I can get all the revelations I want.

Well, in selecting the time mystery you have one of the best.

And dual-Cursed Oracle gives you this beauty-

"Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day."

Fortune isn't bad either.

Feats- there is always improved initiative.

Also, I don't agree Divine spells are too weak for a character built around casting. And you have a bunch of powerful revelations in addition to spells.

Excellent, that I can certainly do.

I am in Australia so playing real time over the net can create time zone issues.

What would you like for a character submission, a normal Camarilla starting vampire?

Most interested. But what kind of game is it, play by post or played over the net in real time?

Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (4, 4, 4, 3) = 15 -3=12
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 5, 4) = 15 -2=13
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 2, 6) = 18 -2=16
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 5, 5) = 15 -1=14
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 4, 2) = 11 -1=10
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (3, 2, 5, 4) = 14 -2=12

Which is quite OK.

This will become a force sensitive [unknown to the character] Sluusi soldier and tech specialist.

Will be back with a design soon.

Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 2, 1) = 7 -1=6
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 2, 5) = 13 -2=11
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 6, 3) = 19 -3=16
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 5, 4) = 15 -2=13
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 2, 2, 5) = 14 -2=12
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 3, 2) = 11 -2=9

total modifiers are +1, so roll again.

OK, roll then dice-

Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 5, 2) = 13 -2=11
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 3, 3) = 8 -1=7
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 2, 6) = 15 -1=14
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 6, 3) = 19 -3=16
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (2, 1, 5, 1) = 9 -1=8
Stats: 4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 5, 1) = 12 -1=11

total modifiers are +3, so roll again.

What I meant was where was it to be set, type of characters wanted and the like.

If it is to be Dawn of Defiance then that answers the question. I would love to play. :)

And Joynt Jezebel makes three.

Totally love the SW Saga system and I know it well and have all the books. Star Wars makes for roleplaying that is fun and nearly everyone can relate to.

What sort of campaign did you have in mind?

I would love to play Exalted. I have played and GMed the game tabletop and am all for trying it online.

The setting is so very, very good.

@ZotpoxLike Minigiant I often play witches and I thought I knew most of the tricks. Evidently not. Stone Familiar is an excellent idea in that it reduces the effect of a witches nightmare, their familiar biting the big one.

@ MinigiantLesser metamagic rods are often some of the best value magic items. I can't suggest which rod as I don't know what spells you use or have.

When you get to craft, a belt of physical might, dex and con, is within your budget. Not dying is good.

You are right about the CMB of course. And the witch can't wear armour either if they want to cast any spells. These are very serious negatives.

But the Bride of Hell can make AoO attacks over a wide area and attack at range and if it does grapple something it gets really horrid. And at level 20 it is a prepared arcane caster with level 9 spells. It certainly has it's power once it cranks up. Of course your GM has to allow some things for you to do it.

avr wrote:
Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

There is a build called "The Bride Of Hell" that can be found at Zenith Games- Guide to the Builds. I tried to give a link but it would not work.

I tried it some years back. It takes a fair while until it gets fully effective,but is really powerful once there.

The build is way out of date and you need a GM prepared to allow some things that are questionable.

Artofregicide wrote:

Eat them.

Extra provisions and you still get skeletons for the necromancer to use.

I'm totally chaotic neutral! Whee!

No, you are chaotic evil whether you know it or not.

We are playing "Way of the Wicked" and had a large group of prisoners, including one of the Barons of the realm, the highest rank outside the royal family.

My character used psychic reconstruction to max out her Profession, chef skill and knowledge of bugbear dietary preferences.

She then cooked the prisoners alive while the bugbear army watched and fed the prisoners to the bugbears.

I quite agree on all points VoodooistMonk. I just started trying to figure out the right answer logically. And got rather carried away,not for the first time.

I do want to play a necromancer someday. But have never managed to even start, much less design a character to level 20. Ryze Kuja's does seem good.

If there is one thread that should be dug from the grave it is this one.

The thread quoted by Crobat has a link to another thread that concerns casting animate dead from a wand, which reaches a conclusion of-

"When you're using a wand, you use the wand's caster level. The control limit is written in the spell, and the spell is Instant. Ergo, it's checked at the time of casting. So at the time of casting, any undead you control in excess of 4*CL become free-willed. While casting off of a wand, your effective caster level is that of the wand.

So if you've got a caster level of 15, you can control 60 HD of undead from the spell Animate Dead. If you pick up a wand of Animate Dead at caster level 5, and use it to animate a human skeleton, then at that point, you can control up to 20 HD of undead. You get your skeleton, and then any undead under your control in excess of 20 HD become free-willed (so this is probably a bad idea)."

Both these threads concern D & D 3.5. Nobody has noted, or maybe noticed, this.

So 3 questions.

1 Is the second thread, the one I quoted, right?

2 Then the thread Crobat links to cites the 2nd thread saying that this reasoning applies to the case of having 2 classes that can cast animate dead. Does this follow?

3 Does any of this apply to Pathfinder?

Well, I looked up animate dead from 3.5 and it reads, as relevant-

"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit."

The same, relevant,part of the spell from Pathfinder reads-

"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit."

These wordings are identical except that the second last sentence appears in parenthesis in 3.5 and the last sentence is differently worded because a cleric in Pathfinder needs a feat to control undead with channel energy but doesn't in 3.5. Aside from that they say the same thing.

Not knowing much about 3.5 or how the rules for that relate to Pathfinder I can't resolve the issue.

As for Pathfinder as far as I can recall the guides I have read all assume if you have 2 or more classes capable of casting animate dead the 2 pools of undead work and are calculated separately. This, as Voodooist Monk notes, makes the Mystic Theurge the pinnacle of Necromancy.

FaerieGodfather wrote:

Wiiiiiiiitch. They just need contingency and permanency, and they'd be perfect.

You forgot time stop and wish.

But if witches had all that nobody would play wizards, arcanists or sorcerers.

I don't think it is widely appreciated just how far ahead their hexes, many of which don't run out, put witches ahead in power compared to other full arcane casters at lowish levels.

Wizards and Arcanists eventually catch up and when approaching level 20 their more powerful and varied spell lists put them ahead. But witches are always a good power option and few campaigns ever reach that level.

I know I am not answering your question, but I once allowed my players to craft a Lyre of Building. I knew it was powerful, but never again. Never. Ever. Not even a little bit.

GMs take note, this relatively harmless sounding thing makes most broken powerful things look under powered.

This is more related to your question than answering it.

In my experience, unless the GM has lots of time or practically knows the game by heart, their time is better put into reading what the monsters can do and thinking about it a bit before the encounter.

Even unintelligent creatures will know how to make proper use of their natural attacks and capabilities. A crocodile is an ambush predator, have it act like one rather than waddle up to the party.

I have often run more powerful and complex enemies poorly, realising later that I had not made proper use of their capabilities, resulting in an encounter easier than it should have been. Others do it too.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Misfortune works against undead.

This was what I was going to suggest, but this clever person got there first. You already have cackle, so you want to accumulate hexes it works with.

Hag Eye is a good major hex, not game breaking but good.

Witches don't excel against undead. Not a disaster, but...

Your English is better than my French.

Not to criticise, but what you call a profane caster, which I think is either the term in French or a translation of it, is called an arcane caster in English Pathfinder.

Now to your questions-

"how can i be a profane (arcane caster), and stay a tough guy,"

You can't really. You don't like the Magus, so that is out. There is the eldritch knight, which does combine arcane caster with ability to fight hand to hand, but that is a prestige class that is both long away in levels and not that powerful anyway.

" who can have many skills"

Wizards spells run off intelligence. That means you have a good int mod to add to your skill points/ level. Same with witches.

"and be a face ? Any idea ?"

Sorcerer spells run off charisma. That means you have a good cha mod to add to your social skill, so you are an OK face. It also means you normally don't have a good int mod to add to your skill points/ level, which stay around 2pts/ level.

You could try a summoner, a cha based caster. Their spells are inferior to sorcerer or wizard but they are very useful and you control a creature called an eidolon which is tough and good in a fight.

LordKailas wrote:
to start with you're responding to a thread that is 2 years old.

Well, so are you. :P

Oh no, I am too. :(

No, my post wasn't aimed at you or anyone else. In fact I hadn't even read your post.

What was intended was a simple response to the thread title
"Recommendations with dealing with demons when you are not playing the paladin" ie Don't. Which still sounds like good advice.

And I am not hypocritical enough to criticise anyone for messing up quotes on a message board. :(


I think parts of your plan are over elaborate Minigiant. Getting stealth as a class skill is good imho.

But taking hellcat stealth, for which you need skill focus stealth, already costs you 2 feats. And hellcat stealth just allows you to make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty. Do you really need that if you are an ashtifah? And how effective is it? Is it worth 2 feats?

Secondly, in combat, how many actions does all this take? Putting those 3 hexes on an enemy takes 3 turns, per enemy, then you cast an illusion.

I think it better to misfortune your foes then start taking them out with slumber or spells.

Minigiant wrote:

Blood Havoc cannot be combined with Crossblooded powers unfortunately, and in addition to that it specifically only works with Sorcerer spells.

My biggest concern with a Witch Blaster is unlike Wizards, and to a lesser extent Sorcerers, Witchs don't gain any bonus feats

My mistake about Blood Havoc. Our group has been doing it wrong.

Valid point with some similarity to what I was saying about archetypes that gobble a lot of your hexes. See below.

avr wrote:

As blasters witches have a few problems, but I think the biggest may be a lack of spell slots. They're wizards without an arcane school (+1/level) or an arcane bond (+1, any level) in that regard. Blasters go thru spell slots really quickly.

I think a vanilla witch, an invoker w/out stacking, or an ashiftah or ley line guardian might be better than winter witch - even if winter winter witch witch looks like it's free class features, they're drawing a witch to something she's not that great at doing.

Valid point. Rings of wizardry will help a lot.

Another drawback to the blaster witch is the spell list lacks some of the best blast spells.

The winter witch build I am referring to, and can't find, dammit, is very focused on doing damage, adding debuffs, rime spell et al, and getting past saves,DR and spell resistance. It can't do anything else well, but it does that very well. Typical of the specialised builds that are most powerful at high levels.

If you want something utterly terrifying, play gestalt with the winter witch build on one side and an Aeromancer Arcanist on the other.

I suspect the best archetype stack as you put it is Invoker + Winter Witch into Winter Witch (PrC).

Invoker + Ashiftah trades away 6 of the witch's first 9 hexes, including all but one of the basic hexes, that gained at level 4. Despite being able to take the extra hex feat multiple times to replace basic hexes, this is going to hurt you at a lot of levels.

I saw a good build for a Invoker + Winter Witch into Winter Witch (PrC) with a one level dip into cross blooded sorcerer, orc and white dragon bloodlines, giving +2 damage per die on cold spells.

I can't find the thing now, but it was a good focused ice blaster build which if I recall rightly didn't even take slumber hex. Feats went into making ice blasting better.

Since it was put online, blood havoc has been published that allows a further +1 dice/ level. Take magical knack as a trait. This is one good candidate for the most powerful witch at level 20 imho.

You suffer at lower levels somewhat due to building towards a good end.

I think the witch with the most power consistently at all levels from 1 to 20 is the ashtifah. You get good, immediate value for the 2 hexes you give up, so it is very good at all levels.

Most or all of the other archetypes considered here are also very good and the "vanilla" witch is not to be underestimated.

Best race/s anyone?

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Hexes are excellent for dealing with single opponents,albeit one at a time and at close range. Most aggressive hexes can target each creature once a day, which means they never run out. the save scales with level and at level 10 you can take the split hex feat, allowing you to affect 2 targets per action.

Minigiant wrote:
The scaling DC of hexes is great, and I think that is why the Invoker is so popular, as it is effectively a Spell Focus for their hexes
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

IMHO this makes witches the most powerful of the arcane casters as low and medium levels. wizard's and arcanist's more powerful spell list eventually allows them to catch up and maybe go ahead. But that is at high level where most campaigns do not reach.

The fact you can use hexes where another arcane caster would have to use spells means your spells last longer and can be set aside for tasks you can't do with hexes like hurting groups.

Minigiant wrote:

Hexes in essence makes you a Sorcerer in that you Spam the same thing over and over, just with backup utility spells. This is indeed why they are great at low to medium levels. They have more actions than a regular wizard. Eventually though their action economy becomes obsolete as full prepared casters make up for it in their number of spell slot.

If you are never going to get through 40 spells a day, having hexes on top doesn't give you the endurance you had at lower levels

Precisely. At high levels hexes go from being endurance to another option, still good but not vastly better. The power gap between a witch with 2 spells and slumber hex and, say , a wizard with 3 spells, is really extreme.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The fact witches, unlike other arcane casters get healing and reviving spells allows them to cover for lacking a divine caster. Imperfectly sure, but much better than other arcane casters.

Minigiant wrote:
The Witch I think is a great backup healer, I reserve a couple of healing spells solely for our healer, in case they go down
Minigiant wrote:
Could you explain your Winter Witch comment further, I don't quiet see how it bypasses DR

My mistake , my post didn't say what it ws meant to. :(

It is the Winter Witch prestige class that can do that, with the following class features.

"Unnatural Cold (Su)
At 3rd level, whenever a winter witch’s spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability deals cold damage, treat affected creatures as having half their normal cold resistance when determining the damage dealt.

Unearthly Cold (Su)
At 8th level, a winter witch’s spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that deal cold damage become horrendously cold. Half the cold damage caused by these effects comes from an otherworldly power and is not subject to being reduced by resistance or immunity to cold-based attacks."

Minigiant wrote:
It is very easy to garner from just searching the web, and from frequenting forums, the Witch class is not one that gets the most attention.

I agree and think their power and versatility is under appreciated. You seem to be another witch fan Minigiant.

And it is fairly easy to build an effective witch. Make some sensible and fairly obvious choices as to race, ability scores and hexes. The hardest bit is selecting an archetype, if any. Many archetypes cost you a lot, often a lot of hexes, and don't give much in return.

Hexes are excellent for dealing with single opponents,albeit one at a time and at close range. Most aggressive hexes can target each creature once a day, which means they never run out. the save scales with level and at level 10 you can take the split hex feat, allowing you to affect 2 targets per action.

IMHO this makes witches the most powerful of the arcane casters as low and medium levels. wizard's and arcanist's more powerful spell list eventually allows them to catch up and maybe go ahead. But that is at high level where most campaigns do not reach.

The fact you can use hexes where another arcane caster would have to use spells means your spells last longer and can be set aside for tasks you can't do with hexes like hurting groups.

The fact witches, unlike other arcane casters get healing and reviving spells allows them to cover for lacking a divine caster. Imperfectly sure, but much better than other arcane casters.

Archetypes? My list is a bit different and I believe the Ashtifah is no one by some way.

1 - Ashiftah Ghostwalk is just brilliant.

2 Winter Witch- has an almost unique ability to get past DR. A specialist leading to the prestige class of the same name can be made very powerful.

3 - Invoker

I don't know exactly what the game will entail. However, picking a race that can breathe underwater and has a swim speed is likely to be more important than the choice of class or archetype.

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