Specific beats general. If you can't usually do something, and an ability specifically says you can do something, then that ability supersedes the general rule.
Also, that FAQ is really silly. Talons are just a more specific type of claw.
The FAQ was to prevent some ridiculous natural attack builds that people we're attempting.
As for the magic items that give "talons". It's just a name. Unless the say they give a talon in the actual description (instead of a claw) they're just poorly named items.
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So, say a Strix goes barbarian: beast totem. Would putting the claw attacks on her feet be kosher?
No. Not by the rules.
The ideas was the didn't want 4 claw attacks or 2 claws + weapon attacks.
In general the whole thing was to limit the number of attacks available.
As a GM, I would allow you to put claws on your feet, but if you attacked with one it would count the same as attacking with a hand slot. But that's definitely a house rule.
So, say a Strix goes barbarian: beast totem. Would putting the claw attacks on her feet be kosher?
That's a funny example, because in all of the art, the strix already look like they should have talons. I guess officially, you can't do that, because the ability isn't specific about where the claws go to override the FAQ. But unless it's for PFS, you should just ask your DM if he's cool with it. It doesn't feel abusive to me.
It's not really a mistake. The FAQ came much later in time, and was just a contrived way to reduce the power of natural attack builds. Regardless, part of the rules is breaking the rules. Talons could go on hands and claws could go on feet if the text specified it to work that way.
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Honestly, I would have preferred they just write a "advisory notice" that says something like:
"Everybody, we never intended for someone to be able to get this many natural attacks and still be able to use weapons with their hands too. We think you should probably limit the overall number of attacks that can be made."
And issue a separate ruling for PFS that said "Player characters can only make 7 weapon or natural attacks total in a round". Or even have a limit per level range, or whatever.
As far as what is a claw vs a talon, I figure it comes down talons having opposite thumbs while claws have side thumbs or no thumbs.
Not allowing claws or talons on strix feet is a copout for the sake of balance. A strix with clawed/taloned feet is basically a physical mimic of a harpy.
For me, the biggest issue with claw or talon attacks on the feet is balance. By that I mean balance for the creature, not just balance for the game. Flying creatures like the harpy get away with it, because they are flying, which from a combat mechanic perspective is a lot like standing on their wings. But for your average walking creature, putting natural attacks on their legs means that during combat they don't have a leg to stand on.
If a creature does have four or more limbs, it turns into a question of directional control; the creature must be able to face its claws forward to use them in combat. Generally only a single pair of legs can be brought to bear against an opponent. This is why an eidolon can only apply the claws evolution to one pair of legs. (Back legs can still get a rake attack, because the creature's weight shifts to its grappling limbs.)
A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.
If you don’t believe that then get a timer and throw a punch with each arm and a kick with each leg. And even throw in a headbutt. Unless you are incredibly slow that will take you less than 6 seconds, and you’re probably not even a natural fighter. Imagine how fast that would be if you were actually good at fighting.
Also, you can take a five foot step in the middle of a full attack action. So, you could even attack with one leg and then 5 foot step to another enemy and attack them with the other leg. All in 6 seconds.
A round is six seconds long.
I have always been under the impression that one did a lot more than just take one's own actions during that six seconds. For example, avoiding injury and keeping track of one's surroundings.
I remember learning in basic (white belt) martial arts that the power of an attack comes from the body, not just the limb. Striking with precision and power takes longer than just tossing a limb out and bringing it back again. Punches are faster because the legs and waist position the body for power and balance while the arms aim. Kicks are slower, partly because the person kicking needs to shift their weight just to free each leg to move.
Trained martial artists learn more efficient methods of combining the various actions needed to strike solidly with an array of limbs. That's what flurry of blows represents.
Out of curiosity, I tried it. Two punches took only a second, and I could sidestep immediately afterwards. Two kicks took four seconds for side kicks, or about two and a half seconds for weaker front kicks; any less and I had both feet off the ground at once. And I wasn't dodging anything at the time. (Side kicks were turn/kick/turn/step/turn/kick/turn/step, which is why they took so long. My balance isn't bad, but it isn't great either.)
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I can only say that the natural attack rules are a mess, I won't speak to the point of what is SUPPOSED to be, only that as-is it's pointlessly contrived and still fails to accomplish the primary goal of limiting the number of full BAB attacks a PC can get.
IMO they didn't go far enough but that's the fault of 3.X backwards compatibility.
This is one thing I personally am really grateful is being changed with PF2 in that each attack or ability requires an individual action instead of lumping everything into some nonsense "Fullround" action that is ripe for abuse like stacking as many natural attacks for a Full-Attack sequence.
I can only say that the natural attack rules are a mess, I won't speak to the point of what is SUPPOSED to be, only that as-is it's pointlessly contrived and still fails to accomplish the primary goal of limiting the number of full BAB attacks a PC can get.
IMO they didn't go far enough but that's the fault of 3.X backwards compatibility.
This is one thing I personally am really grateful is being changed with PF2 in that each attack or ability requires an individual action instead of lumping everything into some nonsense "Fullround" action that is ripe for abuse like stacking as many natural attacks for a Full-Attack sequence.
Honestly BAB confuses the heck outta me. I've seen some builds on reddit where people were getting up 16 attacks per round by taking feats that increase speed or class abilities that give extra limbs.
Natural attacks can only be made once per round, right? It seems weird that they nerfed (is it nerfing if the thing being nerfed was never a thing?) a non-iterative attack type.
Natural attacks can be made once per round each, often in addition to iterative attacks. At the low to mid levels PFS plays, natural attack builds can be ridiculous.
Natural attacks can be made once per round each, often in addition to iterative attacks. At the low to mid levels PFS plays, natural attack builds can be ridiculous.
That's putting it mildly. In just three levels, I can make a character with Claw, Bite, Hair, Hoof, Gore, and Slam attacks.
Go kitsune or half-orc for the bite attack, one level of either Feral Champion Warpriest or Sorcerer/Bloodrager with the Draconic bloodline for the claws, one level of White-Haired Witch for the hair, and one level of Shifter using the Alternate Natural Attack rules for the Gore, Hoof, and Slam.
I'm starting to really want to make another natural attack character, only without the character theme limiting what attacks I can use like my last one. I wonder just how crazy I can make it.
I went looking for ways to get talons (Talons of Leng, Demon Talon, yadda yadda) they all go on your hands!
Those are claws. If you want actual talons, take a level in Shifter, using the alternate natural attacks option for Deinonychus, Falcon, or Owl aspect.
Natural attacks can only be made once per round, right? It seems weird that they nerfed (is it nerfing if the thing being nerfed was never a thing?) a non-iterative attack type.
No, you can attack with the same natural weapon more than once per round. It's just that natural weapons don't get the usual iterative attacks, because the rules say "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus." CRB pg. 182
With certain abilities like Haste or the Multiattack ability animal companions (and Eidolons) have, you can attack with the same natural weapon more than once per round.A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.
Or you do somethignn like this.
@Yaba: Don't forget that it takes less force to injure someone with claws, talons etc., as those tend to be sharp.
A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.
If you don’t believe that then get a timer and throw a punch with each arm and a kick with each leg. And even throw in a headbutt. Unless you are incredibly slow that will take you less than 6 seconds, and you’re probably not even a natural fighter. Imagine how fast that would be if you were actually good at fighting.
Also, you can take a five foot step in the middle of a full attack action. So, you could even attack with one leg and then 5 foot step to another enemy and attack them with the other leg. All in 6 seconds.
Now take a yardstick and spaz out for a bit. How many swings do you think you can make in 6 seconds? Probably more than 4. Does that make you a 20th level full BAB class? Of course not. An attack in Pathfinder represents the overall outcome of your actions for that period of time. You swing your weapon more than once, you also use it to defend yourself (which isn't reflected in the rules except for some class abilities). As you get to higher levels you get more opportunities to make telling blows in the same time frame. You become more efficient at combat.
And natural weapons? They aren't very efficient. It is a bit like trying to use a box cutter against someone with a sword. The manufactured weapon just has a lot of advantages over evolution.
None of that seems to do anything to disprove my assertion that you can attack with one leg and then the other within the span of 6 seconds, even with a 5 foot step between them, so were you just nitpicking?
eidolon can have claws on their legs. it is limited to no more then one pair of claws used on limbs (legs). same goes for all felines (cats. tigers,leopards etc). their claws are on legs. as mantioned above talon vs claws is more of how the digits in the paw are set.taalonss are mostly on legs. but claws can be on ether arms or legs.
A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.Or you do somethignn like this.
@Yaba: Don't forget that it takes less force to injure someone with claws, talons etc., as those tend to be sharp.
But it does take balance. That winding double kick is impressive... and made by a skilled martial artist. Definitely something I would lump under flurry of blows. If I tried anything remotely like that I'd fall flat.
In some cases it does take less force to cause injury with natural attacks, but the trade-off is that it takes more precision. If you need your feet to stand on, balance still becomes an issue when making natural attacks with those same feet.
Most creatures with both front and back leg attacks (or arm & leg attacks) either use the back legs in a grapple, a pounce (i.e. leap attack), or a dive (i.e. flying attack). Most of the damage from a claw or bite comes from the pull after the claws connect, not the initial push or puncture. (It's a fact I use against my cats if they get rowdy. Press in to pin the limbs and they are mostly harmless.)
None of that seems to do anything to disprove my assertion that you can attack with one leg and then the other within the span of 6 seconds, even with a 5 foot step between them, so were you just nitpicking?
I think the general point is, try doing all of that while somebody is whaling on you. Attacking in combat takes much more skill than doing it in an empty room. There is a LOT of motion in that six seconds that isn't specifically accounted in the actions a character takes on his/her turn. Natural attacks don't make someone lose their dex bonus to AC, which means they need to make those natural attacks without sacrificing attention or control.
If you make your two punches and two kicks in rapid succession, all an opponent needs to do is step into your face and you will land on your rear, guaranteed. Odds are it'll spoil your attacks as well. They could also step back, forcing you to overextend, and down you go (though you'll probably just land hard on that overextended leg, costing you time). Or sidestep one of the kicks and use the opportunity to whack you in the back. None of these actions require the degree of commitment that would define them as combat maneuvers.
Also, a five-foot step isn't ONE step.
Try this. Roll out a tape measure to five feet. Set up paper targets 3-4 feet past each end of the tape measure. Start at one end, facing the target. Make your two punches and two kicks. Make three fake dodges (let's say sidesteps, those are quick). Putting your foot down from a kick does not count as a dodge. Now scramble to the other end of that tape measure. Repeat this four more times. If done correctly, you have now been moving for 30 seconds and made 20 strikes, and are probably tired. If done incorrectly, you are either over the time limit, or you fell down at least once. For more realism, try doing all this while wearing a winter coat (or trench coat) over a sweatshirt, to simulate the weight and resistance of light armor.
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What I'm pointing out is that combat in D&D/Pathfinder is an abstract system. Pointing out that it is physically possible for the real you to do anything isn't a compelling argument, especially when the devs are apparently making FAQ answers to deny such actions.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules to suggest you can't attack with both feet in the same round though. The only argument against it would be a house rule based on things you can do in our world. The point is that it is possible for some to do this in the real world, so the argument against it working is completely baseless.
The point is that it is possible for some to do this in the real world, so the argument against it working is completely baseless.
If you don’t believe that then get a timer and throw a punch with each arm and a kick with each leg. And even throw in a headbutt. Unless you are incredibly slow that will take you less than 6 seconds, and you’re probably not even a natural fighter. Imagine how fast that would be if you were actually good at fighting. Also, you can take a five foot step in the middle of a full attack action. So, you could even attack with one leg and then 5 foot step to another enemy and attack them with the other leg. All in 6 seconds.
There is a LOT of motion in that six seconds that isn't specifically accounted in the actions a character takes on his/her turn.
Try this. Roll out a tape measure to five feet. Set up paper targets 3-4 feet past each end of the tape measure. Start at one end, facing the target. Make your two punches and two kicks. Make three fake dodges (let's say sidesteps, those are quick). Putting your foot down from a kick does not count as a dodge. Now scramble to the other end of that tape measure. Repeat this four more times. If done correctly, you have now been moving for 30 seconds and made 20 strikes, and are probably tired. If done incorrectly, you are either over the time limit, or you fell down at least once. For more realism, try doing all this while wearing a winter coat (or trench coat) over a sweatshirt, to simulate the weight and resistance of light armor.
Did you try this yet, Melkiador? I am genuinely curious about the result.
I think it’d be more exhausting to set up all of that stuff than to do the actual exercise. But more importantly, you can often evade and attack as part of the same move.
I think it’d be more exhausting to set up all of that stuff than to do the actual exercise. But more importantly, you can often evade and attack as part of the same move.
If you think laying a tape measure on the floor and taping two sheets of paper to walls would be more exhausting than the equivalent of a high school sport team's sprint drill, then I can no longer place any trust in your judgement of action difficulty.
On a more general note, as a GM I would have no qualms about placing claws on a character's feet, but usage would be limited based on the difficulty of bringing such weapons to bear. For flying creatures like the Strix, it's barely a limitation, but for someone reliant on their feet for transit, I would limit the attack options to a rake attack during a grapple or pounce, or when prone. Damage die would probably be 1d3 per foot for a medium-size creature, and given the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (negated by a feat), it wouldn't be much of a game balance issue.
Well first I’d have to buy paper and tape and a measure. And then I’d have to find a place where I could put tape on the walls. And then I’d want it to be a place where people don’t look at me weird for doing the exercise. So yeah, that’s a lot of time, money and work I don’t intend to do. But the exercise just sounds like a standard workout.
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Pathfinder martials are not average human beings.
Pathfinder martials are not average human beings.
Pathfinder martials are not even highly-trained human beings, and holding them down to real-world expectations in a high-fantasy setting is an incredibly toxic design paradigm.
I suggest you try doing that while someone with a sword and shield is trying to hit you with the sword and blocking your attacks with the shield. If you get touched by the sword, you lose.
Swords aren't lightsabers. If a sword merely touches you, you'll probably be fine, especially if you are wearing armor.
But there is a lot of nuance among swords in the real world. If you are unarmored and up against a flesh slicing sword, like a katana or a scimitar, then getting "touched" could be dangerous. But that's a level of granularity that Pathfinder doesn't account for.
I took a closer look at the FAQ linked by the OP. The wording could have been clearer, but I gather the gist of it. Basically, augments don't add talons. The people who make the rules reserve the use of talons for specific creatures. If your race already has talons, your race already has talons. If you gain a claw attack, you gain a claw attack according to the limitations specified in the FAQ. Items or spells that include 'talon' in their names still grant claw attacks per their descriptive text, and the name is just a name.
And aside from the reliance on naming something a claw or a talon, I agree with the mechanical aspects of the FAQ. I agreed with it without even looking at it first. I agree with it because I have cats and have observed their behavior. I agree with it because I have a mental acuity for such details and can understand the mechanical complexities involved. And I agree with it because the primary exception, that being someone who is sufficiently skilled or gifted to bypass the mechanical difficulties inherent in making attacks with any or all of their limbs in a complex combat situation, is already covered by the Monk class feature called Flurry of Blows.
Now if a GM decides to override the decision of the publishers, that is up to the GM, because the GM is the arbiter of the rules for games that the GM runs. The FAQ is there for GMs who seek advice from the entities who made the rules, and to prevent players from manipulating the rules without the consent of their GMs.
I suggest you try doing that while someone with a sword and shield is trying to hit you with the sword and blocking your attacks with the shield. If you get touched by the sword, you lose.A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.
If you don’t believe that then get a timer and throw a punch with each arm and a kick with each leg. And even throw in a headbutt. Unless you are incredibly slow that will take you less than 6 seconds, and you’re probably not even a natural fighter. Imagine how fast that would be if you were actually good at fighting.
Also, you can take a five foot step in the middle of a full attack action. So, you could even attack with one leg and then 5 foot step to another enemy and attack them with the other leg. All in 6 seconds.
Do you houserule monks into oblivion when they make unarmed attacks vs. an armed and armored opponent?
Why or why not?
The main point is that you could attack with both feet during a 6 second round, everything else was just to prove how much more free time you have besides doing just that. Whatever else you get done in that time frame is rather meaningless.
And going by pure rules, you could attack with one foot, then 5 foot step, and then attack with the other foot. So saying that you could only attack with one foot in one turn is a silly limitation to impose, when you're already shifting your weight from one foot to another multiple times in many 6 second rounds.
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And I'm pointing out it's easy to say "oh I can do that" when you're sitting in your chair at a computer and an entirely different thing to put it into practice in the real world. Talk is cheap, and all that.The main point is that you could attack with both feet during a 6 second round, everything else was just to prove how much more free time you have besides doing just that. Whatever else you get done in that time frame is rather meaningless.
And going by pure rules, you could attack with one foot, then 5 foot step, and then attack with the other foot. So saying that you could only attack with one foot in one turn is a silly limitation to impose, when you're already shifting your weight from one foot to another multiple times in many 6 second rounds.
No the real world and it's physics have no dictate over how easy/difficult it is to do something in pathfinder. As seen above we got a nerf to weapon cords because of that type of logic.
I'm pointing it out to everyone doing it note that I said easy/difficult I don't care how fast a normal human can run in a round or how fast Usain bolt is my human can move 30ft in 6 seconds and still do other things in pathfinder no if ands or buts.