I really like the blood kineticist, if you are going to entertain the idea. If you know your enemies will most likely have lood, you get an autohit, DR ignoring attack for low damage, plus a ranged normal damage attack, if you pick up the class ability you can heal people for a burn point, which is better then most cure spells (arguably as it heals more, but applies an amount of unhealable NL until rest).
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Please oh please don't tell me how great or how awful a 15 point buy is. Don't tell me how characters are better or worse off with stat arrays
It is awful. 15 pt buys suck, especially as a DM. You're going to have the Min Maxers and you're going to have the non-Min Maxers, and someone in the group is going to make the wildest character that is SAD.
I'm not trying to tell you or your table what to do, but in my experience, someone will always suffer with a 15 pt build, and that detracts from their fun. My personal philosophy on this is to have lots of points, because then if you don't come up with some awesome stuff then that's your own laziness.
15 point buy benefits short, bursty fights because no one will have acceptable stats to stand toe-to-toe with enemies.
15 point buy benefits full caster, end of story.
Can’t you make an Oracles will saves against mind effecting effects, AC, Initative, DC and attack and damage roles all run off of Charisma? Lol.
Aside from that, any summoning class and any 9th Level caster will benefit.
15 point buy benefits short, bursty fights because no one will have acceptable stats to stand toe-to-toe with enemies.
15 point buy benefits full caster, end of story.
SAD builds are less affected. But, as I demonstrated above, if your build still works after turning one 14 into a 10, then you're perfectly fine -- because that's all the difference there is between 20 and 15 point-buy.
STR: 15
DEX: 12 or 10
CON+ 16
INT: 10 or 12
WIS+ 16
CHA- 5 (15,14,14,12,10,7 15pt array)
--I could take this dwarf into a game and be better than probably over half of the 20pt martial builds I see. Hell, probably 9/10ths, given my anecdotal experience.
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The point about playing a Kineticist is well made (although it's off-topic, OP asked for casters).
With a 15 point build you can go 16,14,10,10,10,10 to get a 16 Con and 14 Dex. Then tweak the other 10s for pluses/minuses. And that's before racial mods. If you aren't going PFS, then there are option for races that boost both Dex & Con. Aasimar & Hobgoblin come to mind.
15 is low?
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Well, relative to monsters you fight it's low.
As everyone else said, 15 points actually make the min-maxers better; role players will not dump stats and basically end up with a 16-14 setup; a wizard can pretty easily dump str, chr, and to a lesser extent Wisdom and basically not feel anything.
That's why I tend to go higher points (my default is 24 points nothing under 10... a 20 point buy giving everyone "credit" for taking a 7, so those who refuse to dump stats don't end up vastly underpowered).
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Not sure what you're talking about. The AP iconics have been 15 point buy since the OGL days.
It might have changed very recently but as recently as Hell's Vengeance they were 15 point buy. Check it out.
Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25
The APs are balanced around 15-point buy characters as well.
No they are balanced around 4d6 drop the lowest which is 20 points.The APs are balanced around 15-point buy characters as well.Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. ; )
Except it's not and a paizo staff member has even said so.Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. ; )No they are balanced around 4d6 drop the lowest which is 20 points.The APs are balanced around 15-point buy characters as well.Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25
OK.
15 was chosen back when they believe that it was the average of 4d6 drop low. Mark Seifter (back when he was Rogue Eidolon) showed that 4d6 drop low is actually on average closer to 21 points than 15.
Seifter's calculation was predicated on the observation that "when actually rolling for stats, basically everybody rejects low rolls that would result in a hopeless character" (like a 6,7,10,12,9,11 array).
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15 was chosen back when they believe that it was the average of 4d6 drop low. Mark Seifter (back when he was Rogue Eidolon) showed that 4d6 drop low is actually on average closer to 21 points than 15.
Seifter's calculation was predicated on the observation that "when actually rolling for stats, basically everybody rejects low rolls that would result in a hopeless character" (like a 6,7,10,12,9,11 array).
Sort of. I was analyzing the original math of 3.0/3.5 D&D 25 Point Buy (the equivalent to Pathfinder 15 Point Buy), where there actually were specific rules for a "hopeless character" that entitled you to a reroll. At the time, after someone was worried that throwing out the hopeless characters was the main cause of the finding, I also calculated without removing hopeless characters and it was a little lower, if I recall a little under 1 point, but still way higher than 25/15; there just weren't that many characters that were hopeless and they didn't affect the numbers that much on the low end as the characters with high stats did on the high end.
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The fewer ability scores a class needs, the better it does in a 15-point-buy game.
Paladins do fairly well since they can get by with nothing other than Charisma and their main attack stat (either STR or DEX) above a 10.
Wizards can often get by with Intelligence and some DEX, though 1st level can be a scary place if they don't have some way of mitigating their low hit points (though that's a pretty large toolbox and there are ways to get that mitigation).
Unchained Rogue would do all right since you can go DEX-focused with a splash in CON and don't particularly need to raise anything else above a 10 starting out.
Inquisitor can do reasonably well with DEX primary and WIS secondary.
Kineticist does reasonably well since they can also go CON/DEX without needing to worry much about other stats.
The more stats a class needs, the harder it will be to keep them viable and effective in a 15-point-buy. Gishes who don't have stat consolidation or combat types with a wide spread of abilities and/or needs that key off different stats can all end up feeling the squeeze. Fighter, magus, and monk will really feel the strain since they are dependent upon multiple stats (or have class features that are effectively dead if they can't boost the related stat, like a fighter's armor training), while a lot of 9th level casters can often get by with a single good stat and a wisely chosen array of spells and abilities.
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As GM and player that primary uses 15 point buy. In almost every home game for the past 6 years. My players complained a lot the first time I did this. After the first time and they got to playing it was never an issue again. I can say it does one thing more than any other. It forces the players to function as a group. With a 15point buy there is much more likely chance there is a flaw in the character. This helps role play more then a character with 0 flaws.
After that my top recommendations for a low point buy game. Any really, I have made many 15 point buy characters that are effective. The goal is not to make unkillable superpowered character. The goal is to make one that can be effective at there job.
The 15 point buy things to understand.
1: This is the one time where you don’t have much wiggle room. You need a balanced or larger then normal party. The group will need someone to cover each of the following. Divine Caster, Arcane Caster, 2 Front line combat characters, and Trapfinding (Depending on the game you are playing).
2: Every party should have a bard. If there is no bard play one. 15 point buy really lends to bards being better for the group then any other. As the bard can enhance the groups combat character to as effective as if they made the characters with a higher ability scores.
3: Any character with animal companion, eidolon, or mount class feature. As stated before point buy dose not affect them at all. Even in higher point buy game class that offer an ally are stronger then ones that do not.
I don’t really like, it feels like it limits class selection a lot in the realm of many of the 3/4 bab 6th Level caster range specifically.
Which many feel is the sweet spot of pathfinder class design, is also already favours the generally considered strongest cast of classes (full casters) and further incentivises min maxing and stat dumping.
For in my opinion very little return, besides holding onto a legacy of how things used to be done.
Edit: it also heightens the chance of new players making bad characters and incentivises racial selection being more mechanics and less fluff based.
Seriously, don’t we have enough dwarfed clerics and Elven wizards? Lol
What I do is 25 pb but they’re only allowed to dump one stat and only down to 8 and only one stat 18 or above after racials.
Get more balanced noob friendly characters that way and more freedom is racial selection.
I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.
I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)
I actually made a spreadsheet to calculate all possible 4d6 less one characters. here.
Average point buy for 4d6 drop one is 20.7. This ignores the 36 entries that generate a stat < 7. Average number for the stat is 12.44 (for valid point buy) or 12.24 for all 1296 possibilities.
/cevah
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Apologies for derailing the OP's initial question. It irks me when people spread misinformation on the power levels for APs. With a few exceptions, they're all built to accommodate a party of four PCs built with 15 point buy. The iconics associated with those APs reflect this fact. The iconics linked by doomman47 are designed for PFS and are built for that specific campaign.
To answer the original question, the limitation around point buy is mostly a problem at lower levels. By middling to higher levels, due to buffs, magic items, and class features coming online, the difference between a 15, 20, and 25 PB character is less painful.
Characters that excel in low-mid point buy at early levels:
* Any martially inclined character that can abuse dexterity as a primary stat.
* Any dedicated spellcaster. By dedicated I mean spellcaster that's exclusively spellcasting - not one that's splitting his focus between spellcasting and martial stuff.
* Any character with a fully scaling pet. This includes animal companions, eidolons, phantoms, etc.
* Synthesist summoners.
kill this thread and bury 15 point buy originalists
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kill this thread and bury 15 point buy originalists
Sounds like you are rendering judgement against people who like to play the game, simply because they prefer to play the adventure paths as they were designed. That's a bit like telling us we are playing "wrong". No one is stopping you from playing beyond the "standard fantasy" setting. Go play your more powerful characters in peace. PFS might be a better fit for your tastes, but I have a feeling the condescending attitude might find few allies.
I'm not saying I hate 15 pt buys, but... I would let a charging centaur drag my favorite character's exposed buttocks through a mile of broken glass and caltrops just so I could spend 1 hour standing in a picket line in the 2nd circle of hell protesting 15-pt buys with a sign that says "games are supposed to be fun".
kill this thread and bury 15 point buy originalistsSounds like you are rendering judgement against people who like to play the game, simply because they prefer to play the adventure paths as they were designed. That's a bit like telling us we are playing "wrong". No one is stopping you from playing beyond the "standard fantasy" setting. Go play your more powerful characters in peace. PFS might be a better fit for your tastes, but I have a feeling the condescending attitude might find few allies.
Look, we've discussed this. Paizo enacted 15 point buy as the baseline because they thought it modelled 4d6 drop lowest, they screwed up the math, ended up gimping characters for the material they designed (which was mostly ported over from 3.5e rather than created anew).
Not to mention Paizo realized low point buys warped power towards ability-score independent classes, and used PFS as a way to popularize a better, fairer stat attribution.
It's been established that 15pbros want to freeze the development of the game and its history at a specific point of time.
20pbosses understand the game and its tenets as evolving mechanisms that can be understood and developed upon.
If your response to the light of character agency at creation is to hide, then I agree with your sentence – perhaps it is for us to stay apart.
That's because they were created under wrong math. They are meant for 4d6 drop the lowest which is 20 point buy, paizo made a math error in the beginning end of discussion.Apologies for derailing the OP's initial question. It irks me when people spread misinformation on the power levels for APs. With a few exceptions, they're all built to accommodate a party of four PCs built with 15 point buy. The iconics associated with those APs reflect this fact. The iconics linked by doomman47 are designed for PFS and are built for that specific campaign.
To answer the original question, the limitation around point buy is mostly a problem at lower levels. By middling to higher levels, due to buffs, magic items, and class features coming online, the difference between a 15, 20, and 25 PB character is less painful.
Characters that excel in low-mid point buy at early levels:
* Any martially inclined character that can abuse dexterity as a primary stat.
* Any dedicated spellcaster. By dedicated I mean spellcaster that's exclusively spellcasting - not one that's splitting his focus between spellcasting and martial stuff.
* Any character with a fully scaling pet. This includes animal companions, eidolons, phantoms, etc.
* Synthesist summoners.
Exactly. I believe that’s why PbP PFS and PFS legal is played with 20 pt buys.
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Go play your more powerful characters in peace.
The problem is that you are wrong. Lower point buy doesn't lead to less powerful characters, it often does the opposite!
They underlying issue is that Pathfinder is very badly balanced, with casters being way more powerful and more veriable than martials. Now, if you look at the classes mentioned in this thread, you see that those most mentioned are full casters and Summoner, in otherwords the classes that are already the most powerful (tiers 1&2).
The natural reaction to a low point buy is to play something that works well despite the point buy (as evidenced by the OPs question), which leads to more people playing tier 1&2 classes. Now, the power level differences between those and martials are greater than the differences between point buys, which means that a 15-point-buy party picking mostly tier 1-3 classes will be a significantly stronger party than a 25-point-buy party where most people play martials.
Go play your more powerful characters in peace.The problem is that you are wrong. Lower point buy doesn't lead to less powerful characters, it often does the opposite!
Perhaps I should have put 'more powerful' in quotations? Perhaps then you wouldn't make an assumption on what I happen to believe about point buy and how it relates to character power.
Look, we've discussed this.
You are right. We have discussed this already. My point was stop telling people how to play the game. You don't like 15 point buy. Personally, I am not a fan of the restriction 15 point buy places on my ability to play my favorite 3/4 BAB and 6th level casting classes. But I get over it and don't tell people they are wrong to use it.
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Sheesh, people get angry about the dumbest things. Play 50 point if that's your idea of fun.
Look, we've discussed this.You are right. We have discussed this already. My point was stop telling people how to play the game. You don't like 15 point buy. Personally, I am not a fan of the restriction 15 point buy places on my ability to play my favorite 3/4 BAB and 6th level casting classes. But I get over it and don't tell people they are wrong to use it.
Hey I'm just happy you admitted modules are not designed for 15 point buy
That was my point
Sheesh, people get angry about the dumbest things. Play 50 point if that's your idea of fun.
20-25 pt buys are my idea of fun. I think its a perfect balance. MAD and SAD classes are all competitive with those styles of pt buy, and quite honestly, if the PC can't make something awesome with that many points then it's their own fault.
I think the reason why I'm so averse to 15pt buys is that I like to do campaigns, typically long ones like ~1yr-2yrs, and I like going from lvl 1 to lvl 20 as often as possible. If a PC is stuck with a 15 pt buy as a MAD class for that long, they're not going to have fun, they're going to get frustrated and experience burnout. This is my own personal experience, and when the PC's aren't having fun, then neither am I.
Hey I'm just happy you admitted modules are not designed for 15 point buy
That was my point
I admitted nothing of the sort, merely agreed that we HAD discussed the issue. If you want to refresh yourself with how I address the issue, feel free to go back and read the posts. But if it makes you feel better to think that way, go for it. I can't control what you think.
Perhaps I should have put 'more powerful' in quotations?
Why, was it a quote? If yes, by whom?
Perhaps then you wouldn't make an assumption on what I happen to believe about point buy and how it relates to character power.
So you are saying that when you talked about "more powerful characters" in the context of point-buy, you were not implying that characters are stronger at higher PB? Then what the hell were you talking about? If you do not believe that higher PB leads to higher power characters, then what makes you presume that Secret Wizard plays "more powerful characters"?
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I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.
I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)
Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
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I just finished one of the toughest AP's Age of Worms. Made the players use effectly a 15 point buy. They griped at first but after a few games never complaned again about it for the next 3years 2months of the game. So yes it can be done with lower point buy characters.. More to the point by the end they did not notice they where low point buy. They just enjoyed playing there characters.
We just started Rise of the Rune Lords using 15 point buy. With 6 players you would think they would be all high tire classes at the table. Nope.
Me: Dwarf Slayer Two Weapon Fighting
Dwarf Barbarian Dwarven Axe and Shield.
Human Oracle/Brawler bladed scarf unarmed strike.
Half Orc Monk unarmed strike
Gnome Sorcerer
Human Swashbucker
As for the best character to play. It is any you want to play. Just know you have to chose to be bad at something. To make your self better at the job you pick.
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As for the best character to play. It is any you want to play. Just know you have to chose to be bad at something. To make your self better at the job you pick.
This doesn't change in 20 point buy, but you see more diversity.
As someone who likes Monks, seeing CHA/INT dumps all the time removes diversity and personal expression, and munchkinning into agile to be able to function seems against any sort of game immersion.
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Not that it matters much, but I do 35 point buy, minus your chosen character's Race Points.
Ex. (Human):
35-9=26
You have a 26 point buy for a human.
Ex. (Aasimar):
35-15=20
You have a 20 point buy for an Aasimar.
Ex. (Kobold):
35-5=30
You have a 30 point buy for a Kobold.
......................................
I also don't allow dump stats below 8, post racial adjustments.
So those points go into fixing weaknesses and making a well rounded character.
You end up with Fighters who have super high Wisdom to make up for Will saves.
Wizards with enough Strength to carry their own stuff.
If you want to try make your character overpowered by abusing my generosity, I will simply kill your character, repeatedly if necessary, until you build something sensible or leave my table.
It's obviously possible to break any campaign with a 15 point buy. Imagine what a min-max'er can do with ~30 points to spend.
Yeah, I don't cater to "those people".
Build a well rounded character with the ample points I have provided, and lets go adventure as a well rounded party.
I don't pull any punches. I will use cursed items, attack your ability scores, make you climb and swim, infect you with diseases and poison, trap your treasure with Weird...
Your best hope is that you spent those extra points hemming up your weaknesses, rather than maximizing your whatever.
I think the thing about stat generation methods is the best thing to do is just change them up a lot to find a sweet spot (one offs or short campaigns are great for this).
Like we recently did one where the stat generation was "everybody's Int is 16, you have 15 points for the rest of your stats, Int-based casters are banned."
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Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.
I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)
Arrays are fine.
One of the biggest problems of Pathfinder is that a lot of onus is placed on ability scores, and not enough on feats/etc.