What Classes do better in a low Point-buy game(15)?


Advice

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Secret Wizard wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.

Arrays are fine.

One of the biggest problems of Pathfinder is that a lot of onus is placed on ability scores, and not enough on feats/etc.

Honestly, I've found starting ability scores to be not as important as other choices. Most of the time one is waffling about an extra +1 here or there. Sure, sometimes that's the difference between life or death, but a poorly chosen feat can mean that choice is dead weight the entire game. I'll play any ability-score-determining method you like, from straight 3d6 in order to 50-point buy.


blahpers wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.

Arrays are fine.

One of the biggest problems of Pathfinder is that a lot of onus is placed on ability scores, and not enough on feats/etc.

Honestly, I've found starting ability scores to be not as important as other choices. Most of the time one is waffling about an extra +1 here or there. Sure, sometimes that's the difference between life or death, but a poorly chosen feat can mean that choice is dead weight the entire game. I'll play any ability-score-determining method you like, from straight 3d6 in order to 50-point buy.

Feats can be retrained starting stats can not a bad feat will be dead weight until you can retrain it, bad starting stats are there till you either die or retire the character.


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doomman47 wrote:
Feats can be retrained

...if your GM lets you, and you have the opportunity.

Quote:
starting stats can not

...unless your GM lets you, etc. (All that is written is not in stone.) My post assumed no retraining involved.


blahpers wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Feats can be retrained

...if your GM lets you, and you have the opportunity.

Quote:
starting stats can not
...unless your GM lets you, etc. (All that is written is not in stone.) My post assumed no retraining involved.

Even then there are several classes that can retrain feats even with out gm permission.

Shadow Lodge

doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.

Having everyone assign their stats from an array isn't dictating what to play. It will actually increase class diversity since there isn't the massive incentive to play a SAD class. You don't need a 20 in your casting stat at level one.


Serum wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.
Having everyone assign their stats from an array isn't dictating what to play. It will actually increase class diversity since there isn't the massive incentive to play a SAD class. You don't need a 20 in your casting stat at level one.

One day I want to start a campaign with a 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9 array. One point higher across the board than the elite array, technically a 25pt buy, but less than optimal by far.


Serum wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.
Having everyone assign their stats from an array isn't dictating what to play. It will actually increase class diversity since there isn't the massive incentive to play a SAD class. You don't need a 20 in your casting stat at level one.

You do if you want to have more than just 1 spell per day with some classes. Also it doesn't really do much to diversify since with those stats the only classes that are semi decent are 6th level casters who are also some what martially inclined. I would not want to play either a full caster or a full bab character even one with spells with those stats.


doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Serum wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, fundamentally I would be happy with lower point buy if the system also did not reward you with "more points to spend on other stuff" by deliberately lowering certain scores.

I mean some classes can work with a (pre-racial) 18/14/14/7/7/7 array and some cannot. I just dislike this asymmetry in terms of "how much classes depend on stats" as there is very little you can do to fix starting stats (sure you can buy a belt and a headband, but you'd still have been better off starting with more.)

Having everyone use elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) stops these shenanigans.
Why don't you just build your players characters while you are at it? You could also play the characters for them too.
Having everyone assign their stats from an array isn't dictating what to play. It will actually increase class diversity since there isn't the massive incentive to play a SAD class. You don't need a 20 in your casting stat at level one.
You do if you want to have more than just 1 spell per day with some classes. Also it doesn't really do much to diversify since with those stats the only classes that are semi decent are 6th level casters who are also some what martially inclined. I would not want to play either a full caster or a full bab character even one with spells with those stats.

Trust me, full casters are really fun with those stats too. The one time you whack an orc down with a wizard is with it.


I asked a question with which I wanted help. Thanks for the gifted minority of people who answered the topic. Your advice was duly considered when I made my character.

To the majority of posters who disregarded the question, brought in their hobby horses, and derailed the thread- the uselessness of your responses was matched by their unhelpfulness. Please feel free to make any and all points about how my issue is beside the point and how low point buy rules or sucks on a different thread.


My personal admiration goes to all the brave souls who came to a forum to debate, something unread of to this date.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
My personal admiration goes to all the brave souls who came to a forum to debate, something unread of to this date.

My admiration goes to all who helped me with my build issue. My admiration goes to those who stayed on topic. My admiration cannot be granted to those who ignored what was explicitly stated and clogged up a thread.

My admiration could be extended to those wishing to debate a particular issue on an apt posting. The general topic here is "Advice." That's what I asked for and I'm thankful for those who helped out.


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Ever think that maybe the discussion branched out because there wasn't really much anymore to discuss on the original topic?

The original question as worded by you ("What classes do well with that parameter?") can basically answered with just five words, "look at the tier list". Ignoring for the moment that everyone has their own definition of what constitutes "doing well". Because that's what it boils down to - 15 point buy compared to 20 or even 25 point buy doesn't actually change that much when you look at the big picture, i.e. the class as a whole (and not just at the individual character). Also, as I've already said and the most common suggestions in this thread confirm, the high tier classes also are usually the least hindered by low point buy.

That is really no surprise - almost everything a martial character does in combat directly scales with one or more ability scores (attack rolls, damage rolls, ability DCs, etc.), but the same is not necessarily true for other clases: "Pets" and summoned creatures are unaffected by the owner's ability scores, and there are many potentially combat changing spells that don't have a DC (e.g. Haste, (Greater) Invisilibily, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm, Wall of X, Black Tentacles, Waves of Exhaustion, Maze). Such spells don't care if you ability score is 30, or if it's the bare minimum to cast them. How many things does a Fighter do in combat where the same is true for him?
Likewise for defense - martials usually have a large portion of their defenses dependant on on ability-score-affected stuff like AC, HP, and the saves, while spells like Mirror Image and abilities like Greater Gift of Consumption can form a seperate layer of defense.

So while the difference between say a cRogue and a Summoner will be even more pronounced, the fact remains that a Summoner at 10 point buy is stronger than a cRogue at 30 point buy. You cannot keep this discussion "pure", because things are interconnected, and understanding how the point buy affects classes is a necessary part. If you set the focus on "What classes do well", you very quickly end up with a tier list discussion that has nothing to do with point buy. If you set the focus on "that parameter", well, you see in this thread what happens. What remains is some blanket thing where you don't examine specific aspects - which doesn't really leave much room for discussion.

Shadow Lodge

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EpicFail wrote:
JiaYou wrote:
EpicFail wrote:

Dedicated arcane or divine casters are a bonus as our group will probably need me to be one, but suggestions are welcome.

Otherwise one trait, Pathfinder published material ok.

I would definitely recommend an Elf Conjurer or Sloth mage if your GM allows you to be a Thassilonian mage. Elf with Illustrious Urbanite just trades away Keen Senses for Spell Focus Conjuration, Illusion or Transmutation (trade of the century I'd say). I'd recommend a 19 INT at level 1, meaning DC 16 Greases, DC 17 Glitterdusts, and DC 20 Stinking Clouds (because of COURSE you took Greater Spell Focus between level 1 and 5). As a conjurer you also get a minor bump to the duration of summoning spells, so that's another option for you (although Occultist Arcanist is I believe a better summoner, I don't have any experience with them).

1.Great minds think alike! I'm probably going with just that selection. Although the Evangelist Cleric build suggested early on is a close second.

2.I guess I should have been clearer and more emphatic. I'm also thinking of future people searching threads like this one. Please oh please don't tell me how great or how awful a 15 point buy is. Don't tell me how characters are better or worse off with stat arrays EXCEPT how it directly involves picking a class that works well within the parameters set (a 15 buy when one is used to 20 plus as standard).

3. Thanks Evilserran. Kineticist is a class I've never played before so I'll have to look into that.

Who knew? The answer was 9th level spellcaster and other SAD classes all along!


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And, of course, "low point buy gives the advantage to classes which are already more powerful" leads to people who prefer other classes, or who just want to see a diversity of strong options available preferring more generous stat generations.

Like when I GM it's my preference to give people whatever stats they need to play the character they want to. It's just that this varies wildly from "Invested Regent Monk" on the high end to "Summoner, or Loracle" on the low end.

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