| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This should probably be in the Rules forums, but anywhoozles
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Short Answer: Anything that is not crafted to be a weapon used in combat is an improvised weapon. So, sledgehammer = Not meant for combat. But it would do similar damage as a Light Hammer (2lbs) or a Warhammer (5lbs) depending on how much the sledgehammer in question actually weighs.
Generally speaking though, improvised weapons should not out-damage a real weapon because of the -4 penalty to hit and reduced chance/damage to critically strike. The only way I could see that happening is if they were specifically building their character for using Improvised weapons, like Shikigami Style/Mimicry/Manipulation, Throw Anything, Catch Off-guard, Chairbreaker, etc.
The best part of actual weapons are the enchantments tbh, so actual weapons have a significant advantage over improvised weapons.
And honestly, if a player was walking around with a masterwork sledgehammer enchanted with Keen and Returning... I would just tell the player that thing definitely meant to be used in combat so it’s now a warhammer and no longer an improvised weapon.
Hi,
I need some clarity around Improvised Weapons - let me filter the people who will tell me "everyone does", etc., please - I am looking for the real scoop if you have it.
As it is being shown/explained to me with a couple of styles and tricks and pony shows, improvised weapons do more damage than "real" weapons.
Seriously, I have a 4th level character in one of my games who crits for 3 x all of the HP of all of the other characters in the group combined. Now EVERYONE wants to play Improvised Weapons.
What I need to understand better is not the why or the how but the WHAT. What exactly IS an improvised weapon. In my opinion, I am walking through a room or wherever, and whatever I pick up and swing and throw is an improvised weapon. You know, Jackie Chan, right?
As I read the rules, and everything I can find anywhere, and what my players are telling me...you can actually take a hammer - a sledge hammer that's not a weapon - no it's a tool - and carry that around with you ALL OF THE TIME and call it an improvised weapon. People are trying to make them from special materials and do all of the fancy things they can short of enchanting and masterwork...
So what is the REAL answer? Is it really like they say? In my mind that is an exotic weapon proficiency, and the spirit of the "Improvised weapon" and the "surprise" is, holy *&*^ he is swinging that ironing board at me, I didn't expect that vs. a large dude walks up with his silver pruning shears in their back scabbard and pulls them out and starts pruning you...help!
To me it sounds like your players have misinterpreted some rules, because there's no way they should be dealing that much damage, regardless of what feats or abilities they might have.
You have the rough and ready trait, which would allow you to be a blacksmith with a hammer (normally an improvised weapon) and gets rid of the attack penalties for using improvised weapon and also provides a bonus.
But regardless of anything else, the main drawback with improvised weapons is that can't be given magical enhancements.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Short Answer: Anything that is not crafted to be a weapon used in combat is an improvised weapon. So, sledgehammer = Not meant for combat. But it would do similar damage as a Light Hammer (2lbs) or a Warhammer (5lbs) depending on how much the sledgehammer in question actually weighs.
A Sledgehammer used as an improvised weapon deals damage as a equally sized Earthbreaker. That is, 2d6 for an average Medium creature.
This means that:
- A Large Sledgehammer deals 3d6 base damage. It can be used only by Titan Fighters and Titan Mauler Barbarians.
- Shikigamy Style x3 pumps it up to 8d6 due to virtual size increase (not stacking with other virtual size increases such as Impact).
- If made Large via spells that preserve equipment (Enlarge person), the wielder will now deal 12d6 due to actual size increase.
- If made Huge via spells that preserve equipment (Giant Form), the wielder will now deal 16d6 due to actual size increase. 16d6 is also, incidentally, the maximum damage explicitly addressed by size increase rules.
This however doesn't mean that you can't achieve the same level of damage with proper weapons. Given, in fact, the same level of optimization and focus, you can get pretty much to the same point.
- Medium Butchering Axe deals 3d6 damage
- Large Butchering Axe deals 4d6 damage (only usable by Titan Fighters and Titan Mauler Barbarians)
- +1 Impact Large BA deals 6d6 damage
- A Large creature wielding the weapon would deal 8d6 damage
- A Huge creature wielding the weapon would deal 12d6 damage
While the base damage is one step lower, unlike the improvised case this time the character has spent no feats. This means he can spend feats to achieve higher accuracy (which indirectly affects damage), get other feats ahead of time (such as Vital Strike), or implement other strategies that overall greatly increase DPR via other means (for example: Cornugon Smash + Hurtful to get a whole extra attack). Furthermore, enhancing improvised weapons cost much more than manufactured weapons (see below).
But regardless of anything else, the main drawback with improvised weapons is that can't be given magical enhancements.
Luckily, those days are over.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To me it sounds like your players have misinterpreted some rules, because there's no way they should be dealing that much damage, regardless of what feats or abilities they might have.
You have the rough and ready trait, which would allow you to be a blacksmith with a hammer (normally an improvised weapon) and gets rid of the attack penalties for using improvised weapon and also provides a bonus.
But regardless of anything else, the main drawback with improvised weapons is that can't be given magical enhancements.
My friend, have you seen the Extemporaneous Channeler archetype of the Occultist (swift action enchantment of improvised weapons, free Catch of Guard and Throw Anything, and the usual Occultist abilities to cast Lead Blades and use that Enlarge Person transmutation power), the Shikigami style feat chain (up to three virtual size increases for improvised weapons, plus weapon qualities, plus free enhancement bonus based on the very caster level of any very cheap magic items you wield as an improvised weapon), and/or the Gloves of Improvised Might (basically an Amulet of Mighty fists for improvised weapons, stacks with Occultist weapon enhancements), on top of the aforementioned sledgehammer which explicitly functions as a 2d6 improvised Earthbreaker?
A level 5 Occultist (Extemporaneous Channeler) with all three Shikigami feats can do 6d6 damage with a sledgehammer while in this style, 8d6 while enlarged. If he puts a +1 on it with Magic Weapon or Gloves of Improvised Might he can use his class ability to further enchant it with Bane as a swift action, for a +3 to hit and 10d6 (plus strength and other bonuses).
Or use a 1,500 gp metamagic rod (CL 17th) to act as a +4 improvised mace or club with the third Shikigami style feat, enhanced to +6 with Bane. Lower damage die, though.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
stuff
Maybe if you spent 5 more minutes to understand the context...
What I am doing in my post is comparing two similarly optimised builds trying to do the same thing, that is getting the maximum base damage:
- both builds require a Titan Fighter dip level (you can't use a Large Sledge otherwise)
- both builds get the same penalties to hit due to size
- both builds lose one Bonus feat due to the fighter archetype
- Butchering Axe can be used a martial weapon with a ioun stone at the negligible cost of 1500gp. On the other hand, improvised weapons need Catch Off-Guard, i.e. an extra feat.
And it turned out that, while with a manufactured weapon you can get maximum at 12d6, you also get three feat slots to spare. Is it clear now?
And the cherry on top is...you could make an improvised Medium Butchering Axe
Yeah, no way buddy. The section on improvised weapons says:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
As you can see, it clearly refers to items not crafted to be weapons. The following paragraph, when it talks about the damage, sits on the assumption that the item is not crafted to be a weapon. As a result, the moment you use an "improvised" Butchering Axe and you expect it to work as a proper Butchering Axe, that's not an improvised weapon any more: it's an item crafted to work as a Butchering Axe, i.e. a fully functional weapon.
Several sources imply that, by default, light improvised weapons should deal around 1d4 damage, one-handed improvised weapons around 1d6 damage and 2-handed improvised weapons around 1d8 damage for a Medium creature.
Example 1:
You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
So, if you need a feat to pull-up your 2-handed improvised weapon base damage from 1d8 to 2d6, why would you ever assume that an average 2-handed weapon should already deal 2d6 damage or more by default? An improvised Butchering Axe will deal damage as an average 2-handed axe, that is 1d8 or 1d10 if your GM feels generous, definitely not 3d6. The Sledge is an exception to the rule because it's explicitly stated otherwise, and it still does not overcome the limit defined by Improvised Weapon Mastery.
Example 2:
Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.
An archetype that focuses on improvised weapons still limits improvised weapon damage to, guess what, 1d4 and 1d6 damage.
By your reasoning, there would be no need whatsoever to take any weapon proficiency feat at all if not for crit-fishing and reach builds, since you could pick Catch Off-Guard and use virtually any weapon as the improvised version of itself, and deal exactly the same damage, while also giving them 10ft range increment. I would understand if we were talking about old feats made obsolete by new ones, but what we are talking about here is plain old Catch Off-Guard, written in the Core rulebook. Clearly, this makes no sense in terms of game system.
EDIT. Ah, and about the Spirited Charge thing. That's even wrong-er, since improvised weapons do not inherit any special quality of the base weapon they refer to. This means no reach and definitely no double damage while charging.
Short Answer: Anything that is not crafted to be a weapon used in combat is an improvised weapon. So, sledgehammer = Not meant for combat. But it would do similar damage as a Light Hammer (2lbs) or a Warhammer (5lbs) depending on how much the sledgehammer in question actually weighs.A Sledgehammer used as an improvised weapon deals damage as a equally sized Earthbreaker. That is, 2d6 for an average Medium creature.
It still depends on how big the sledgehammer in question is. Sledgehammers come in multiple sizes (i.e. mini-sledges). The weapon you linked is 10lbs, so yes it would deal the same damage as an Earthbreaker if the sledge in question was 10lbs. But if the player picked up a 2lbs. sledgehammer and tried to say it should do the same damage as an Earthbreaker, I would extend that player a raised eyebrow and a sigh of exhaustion before I said "no" :P
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
A five ounce bird can't carry a 1 lb. coconut!
|
|
It still depends on how big the sledgehammer in question is. Sledgehammers come in multiple sizes (i.e. mini-sledges
Dude, come on, you were wrong in your first post, it's ok, deal with it. A Medium Sledge for a Medium creature is a 2-handed weapon and deals damage as a Medium Earthbreaker, end of the story. There is no talking about weight, size and what not.
Of course you can get a miniature one if for some reason you are so inclined, but this is clearly not the point of having a Sledge in the first place.|
|
stuffMaybe if you spent 5 more minutes to understand the context...
What context? You presented a titan fighter vs a shikigami build. Now you want to compare your vanilla titan fighter vs a shikigami titan fighter? And your saying that your vanilla titan fighter spends 4 less feats than a titan fighter that takes shikigami style? Really? That is completely obvious and irrelevant at the same time. Congratulations on backing off from your presented argument and setting up a strawman argument while you back peddle. Well done.
Shikigami build doesn't need titan fighter. It is much stronger without that nonsense.
Backing off? What are you talking about?! The comparison I did was always the same, just read the damn posts!
This means that:
- A Large Sledgehammer deals 3d6 base damage. It can be used only by Titan Fighters and Titan Mauler Barbarians.
- Shikigamy Style x3 pumps it up to 8d6 due to virtual size increase (not stacking with other virtual size increases such as Impact).
- If made Large via spells that preserve equipment (Enlarge person), the wielder will now deal 12d6 due to actual size increase.
- If made Huge via spells that preserve equipment (Giant Form), the wielder will now deal 16d6 due to actual size increase. 16d6 is also, incidentally, the maximum damage explicitly addressed by size increase rules.This however doesn't mean that you can't achieve the same level of damage with proper weapons. Given, in fact, the same level of optimization and focus, you can get pretty much to the same point.
- Medium Butchering Axe deals 3d6 damage
- Large Butchering Axe deals 4d6 damage (only usable by Titan Fighters and Titan Mauler Barbarians)
- +1 Impact Large BA deals 6d6 damage
- A Large creature wielding the weapon would deal 8d6 damage
- A Huge creature wielding the weapon would deal 12d6 damage
Obvious and irrelevant? For you maybe, since you can't read, but since the OP was interested in the performances of improvised weapons vs manufactured ones, I think an actual comparison between two top-builds is quite useful.
Your build just does not work, deal with it. The maximum base damage you can achieve with only Shikigami Style feats is 6d6 for a Medium Sledge. Everything else needs to come from a Large Sledge (requires Titan Fighter), virtual size increase and actual size increase. Once you remove one step (e.g. Titan Fighter, because for some reason -4 to hit is a big penalty on a Str-based full-BAB class who will probably focus on a single-hit build), you are bound to get less damage overall, that's how math works. After that, you can do whatever you want with it. Full-attack? Cool. Spirited Charge for double damage? Go with it. Vital Strike + Furious Finish? That's the stuff. There's a reason if it's called base damage.
So yeah, you have no idea of what you are talking about.
EDIT. An "improvised" Butchering Axe that works exactly like a Butchering Axe IS a Butchering Axe, not an improvised one. What's not clear about it? And I dare you find a single one improvised weapon sized for a Medium creature that deals more damage than a damn dagger, club or quartestaff.
|
|
Improvised weapons according to Meirril.
> 3ft heavy wooden pole. Not made for fighting, so it's an improvised weapon.
> Attach a thick, fairly flat piece of metal at the end. Still an improvised weapon.
> Shape the piece of metal a little bit. Still an improvised weapon.
> Make it a little bit sharper. Still an improvised weapon.
> Wrap the wooden pole with a bit of leather to make it slightly easier to wield. Still an improvised weapon.
> Use it to butcher a cow. Still an improvised weapon.
> It's an improvised Butchering Axe. It deals 3d6 damage. Crit is only x2, but has a range increment of 10ft. Still an improvised weapon.
Also:
> Repeat for any single weapon by simply stating the sum of the parts, neglecting the whole.
> Pick Catch Off-Guard.
> Free proficiency with any weapon.
Yeah, no s*it.
There are tradeoffs and depending on what you want to do with your character one route will be more appealing then the other, but which option is more appealing depends on what you're trying to do and how much money you have to spend.
The best printed improvised weapon is a sledge since it counts as a 2d6 earth breaker (2-handed weapon). You might be able to do better but it will require DM approval.
The best normal weapon is a butcher axe which is a 3d6 2-handed weapon. Again, you might be able to do better but it too would require DM approval so for the sake of comparison I will look at these two
For basic proficiency both weapons require a feat. There may be archetypes, traits, etc that will give you said feat but in the end they both cost a feat to have proficiency with them.
Sledge ->Catch off Guard
Butcher Axe -> exotic weapon proficiency
The sledge is basically one size smaller then the axe. You can spend one feat to make them the same. Both weapons could be enchanted with impact but this does not stack with the weapon enchant. So, to arrive at the same damage you can either have
butcher axe +impact
or
sledge +Shikigami style x2
There is a 3rd feat that you can grab for shikigami which allows you to increase the sledge one additional size category. There is no equivalent feat that can be taken for the butchering axe. At this point both weapons are maxed out in terms of virtual size increases. Any other size increase that happens will be an actual size increase and could equally apply to both weapons.
This means that for the sledge you have spent 3 feats, while those same feats are available to the butcher axe wielder to spend on something that doesn't increase size. Conversely, the sledge wielder has an extra weapon enchant they could spend on something else that isn't impact. Any feat the sledge wielder could take at this point the butcher axe wielder can also take while still having 3 extra feats to spend on whatever.
The butcher axe wielder therefore has more flexibility then the sledge wielder does in terms of feats they could take. But after a certain point the sledge welder will always have a weapon that is one size bigger then the axe wielder.
then I'm only going to use them unless I really have to use something else (bow, usually).
Why let that stop you? Carry a cello around. Use it as an improvised bow. } : D
It still depends on how big the sledgehammer in question is. Sledgehammers come in multiple sizes (i.e. mini-sledgesDude, come on, you were wrong in your first post, it's ok, deal with it. A Medium Sledge for a Medium creature is a 2-handed weapon and deals damage as a Medium Earthbreaker, end of the story. There is no talking about weight, size and what not.
Of course you can get a miniature one if for some reason you are so inclined, but this is clearly not the point of having a Sledge in the first place.
I'm not wrong, you're being unrealistic. If you pick up a 2lbs sledgehammer and use it as an improvised weapon and try to tell me it's going to do the same damage as a 10lbs sledgehammer just because they have the same name, then you're adhering to the rules so strictly that it doesn't make sense.
You ever been to a construction site before? Well, if you haven't, newsflash: sledgehammers come in different sizes. They range from 2lbs to 25lbs. Sometimes you have to make whack, and sometimes you have to make bigger whack. Medieval/Fantasy settings would be the same way. Just because Archives of Nethys only has one entry for a Sledge being 10lbs doesn't mean that every Sledge you come across is now exactly 10lbs. It seems like you're assuming that every smithy in the realm got a memo that all sledgehammers have to be 10lbs and deal the same damage as an Earthbreaker? Lol. That 10lbs sledge you linked is for basic adventuring gear, not for every sledge you'll ever come across. I mean, are you really going to tell me that if you get into a fight in a blacksmith's shop and there's 30 sledgehammers and they all weigh 10lbs? And then right across the street, there's another blacksmith with 50 sledgehammers that are all 10lbs too? That's laughably unrealistic.
TLDR: Hammers come in different sizes. The hammer you linked is for basic adventuring gear.
It even says in the Improvised Weapon rules: "To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
So if you pick up some random 2lb sledgehammer and use it as an improvised weapon, I'm going to say that thing deals the same damage as a Light Hammer (1d4), not an Earthbreaker (2d6).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You are being wrong in the sense that a Medium Sledge has specific weight and damage (equal to that of a equally sized Earthbreaker), as it is explicitly stated in its description.
A Sledge that weights 1/10th of the standard weight does not deal the standard damage? Oh really, you don't say? Of course it doesn't, because we are not talking about a standard Sledge anymore! A differently sized one will follow standard improvised weapons rules, but rest assured that 99.99% of the times someone here on the boards will be talking about a Sledge in the context of improvised weapons, they will be referring to THIS, not a randomly sized hammer they happened to find in a damn construction site.
Or are you going to pull off the same completely redundant talk every time someone talks about longswords saying that their damage depends on size and hence weight because in MeDiEvAl/fAntAsY SeTtInGs you could find different sized longswords and JuSt BecAusE ArChiVes oF NethYs onLy HaS oNe EntRy fOr a LoNgSword BeiNg 4lbs dOeSn't mEaN tHaT eVeRy LonGswOrd yOu cOmE aCroSs iS nOw eXacTly 4lbs?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
To Meirril:
- Penalty for a Large Slege is -3 at 5th level, not -4. It becomes -2 a couple of levels after.
- The penalty comes with an increase of +2d6 damage at Medium size, or +4d6 after chugging an inexpensive Potion of Enlarge Person, which is integral part of my suggested build.
- So, to summarize, at 5th level we get -3 to hit for +14 damage, and -2 to hit for +14 damage at level 7. Without Enlarge Person, we get -3/+7 and two levels later -2/+7. Just for comparison, Power Attack trades -2 for +6 damage on a 2-handed weapon, which is universally considered a good trade.
If this is sign of a sad build, as you said, then it's your problem. Looking forward to your strawman.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now that we’ve established that sledgehammers weigh 10 pounds, and only something the equivalent size and weight to an earth breaker would count as an earth breaker...
Earth Breakers weigh 14 pounds...
*runs and hides*
|
|
Now that we’ve established that sledgehammers weigh 10 pounds, and only something the equivalent size and weight to an earth breaker would count as an earth breaker...
Earth Breakers weigh 14 pounds...
*runs and hides*
Ahahah dude, you are right! :D I swear I checked before on the d20pfsrd table and for some reason I read 10lbs. Probably I was reading the wrong row.
Anyhow, since the RAW argument is essentially closed, I would like to add an insight from physics perspective.
Indeed weight is an important factor in determining real life weapons damage, especially bludgeoning ones, but that's not all. Damage is essentially an index of how much energy is delivered to the target. Front-heavy weapons, such as hammers, are usually handled to store energy through rotational movement. The stored rotational kinetic energy, and so the damage, can be then represented as:
dmg = 1/2 I ω^2
with I being the moment of inertia of the object and ω being its angular velocity.
Since both a Medium Sledge[1] and a Medium Earthbreaker[2] deal the same damage, it meas that:
dmg[1] = dmg[2] ==> I[1] ω[1]^2 = I[2] ω[2]^2
Assuming the same creature wields both weapons, it will impart the same torque τ = I α, where α is the angular acceleration, defined as the variation of ω over time t:
α = dω / dt
As a result:
τ[1] = τ[2] ==> I[1] α[1] = I[2] α[2]
substitute Eq. 3 in ==> I[1] dω[1] / dt = I[2] dω[2] / dt
integrate over the same interval of time (1 standard action) ==> I[1] ω[1] = I[2] ω[2]
so that ==> ω[1] = I[2]/I[1] ω[2]
Assuming the majority of the hammer's mass m is stored in the head, its moment of inertia can be approximated to:
I = m r^2
with r being the length of the handle. Substituting Eq. 4 and Eq. 5 in Eq. 2 we get:
==> I[2]/I[1] = 1 ==> I[1] = I[2] ==> m[1] r[1]^2 = m[2] r[2]^2
I[1]I[2]^2/I[1]^2ω[2]^2=I[2]ω[2]^2
==> 10lbs r[1]^2 = 14lbs r[2]^2 ==> r[1] = 1.18 r[2]
So yeah, not only a Medium Sledge and a Medium Earthbreaker have different weights, but they have also different sizes, with the Sledge being about 18% longer than the Earthbreaker.
And since, according to the Earthbreaker's description:
The crude metal of this massive hammer’s head ends in multiple blunt spikes that help concentrate the force of a powerful swing down into a smaller, more focused area, allowing it to smash through armor with greater ease. Due to the tremendous size and weight of its head, an earth breaker is poorly balanced, and requires two hands to properly lift and control.
Earthbreakers are already poorly balanced, it is this size increase which probably makes the Sledge too cumbersome to use in battle, and thus an improvised weapon.
The moment however someone can overcome this challenge (Catch Off-Guard), they can make great use of Sledges in battle as well.
The RAW argument is not closed.
Your 10lb Sledge example is for simple, basic adventuring gear, not a description of every sledge you'll ever come across while adventuring.
Therefore this excerpt from the Improvised Weapon rules is the more appropriate rule to follow: "To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the to find a reasonable match."
.
Gray Warden, I apologize for what I said earlier. It was uncalled for and bad form.
Quick question since a sledge hammer functions as an improvised earth breaker can you use thunder and fang to wield it in 1h?
RAW it must be an Earthbreaker, so no. But it doesn't really change anything mechanically so I'd allow it.
I'd definitely say no. You're trained with a specific weapon combination. Something that behaves differently form an earthbreaker doesn't match your training (muscle memory etc.), and if it does behave like an earthbreaker, it's not an improvised weapon but *drumroll* an earthbreaker!
|
|
I don't understand why you keep stating the obvious. Of course if we are talking about an unconventionally sized Sledge we get to follow improvised weapons rules, the same way if we are talking about an unconventionally sized Longsword we have to adapt its damage according to size rules. And I have already agreed with you on this point several times already.
What I do not agree with is essentially this statement:
It would do similar damage as a Light Hammer (2lbs) or a Warhammer (5lbs) depending on how much the sledgehammer in question actually weighs.
and not because it's intrinsically wrong, but because it conveys the idea that there is no such thing as a clearly defined and codified item called Sledge in the rulebooks. After I pointed out this fact, you then started insisting on the fact that size matters. But again, that's obvious, it's just not the point of this discussion.
The point is that we are talking about a game that, you like it or not, is based on clearly defined stereotypes. As a result, if the GM says "You find a Longsword", anyone in their right mind will rightfully assume it's a Medium sized Longsword made of steel, weighting 4lbs, dealing 1d8 damage and in pristine conditions, regardless if it was found in a 2000 years old ruin in Osirion or the high-tech Numeria or anywhere else.
Similarly, if someone talks about a Sledge, with any chance they will be referring to the one linked so far, because that's the most sensible assumption without any further and explicit information saying otherwise. IF for some reasons they are not referring to that one, say because it's a Fey-sized Sledge or because it's made of unconventional materials or it has the broken condition, then it's up to the OP (or the GM) to specify it.
But until then, these are the stats for Sledges, the same way these are the stats for Longswords, and it makes no sense questioning them without a clear reason to do so.
|
|
Quick question since a sledge hammer functions as an improvised earth breaker can you use thunder and fang to wield it in 1h?
It doesn't, the same way other weapon-specific feats would not apply, such as Weapon Focus [Earthbreaker]. Essentially, Derklord's statement sums it up: it doesn't matter if you say it's improvised; if it works as a specific manufactured weapon, it is that specific manufactured weapon.
|
I would recommend using the Pathfinder society's campaign rule, which states that the maximum damage for shikigami style is 3d6.
Further, if the player is combining shikigami style with the Extemporaneous Channeler, it's good to note that both boosting the weapon AND activating the style feat are swift actions, so he can't do them both on the first round.
Further, while the channeler stacks with shikigami style, and it stacks with gloves of improvised might,the gloves and shikigami style do not stack with each other, nor do they stack with whatever enchantment the improvised weapon would have.
And if they want to enchant the "improvised" item as if it were a weapon, it no longer counts as an improvised weapon since it's now meant to be used as a weapon.
As a sidenote, the shikigami manipulation is mostly brokenly strong because before it, the caster level of items usually meant next to nothing. It had no use whatsoever. So there are items that have caster levels that do not correlate in anyway with their power level, like a 250 gp traveler's any-tool that has cl9 and thus functions as a +2 weapon despite specifically saying it works poorly as a weapon (compare the price of a +3 weapon which also has CL 9 and costs 18 000 gp, or rod of merciful metamagic with CL 16, costing 2500gp, functioning as a +4 weapon which would normally cost 32k and would have a caster level of 12). While not RAW, it would be a good idea to houserule shikigami manipulation to work off of the CL AND the cost of the weapon, say, +1 per 4 caster levels, maximum bonus equal to +1 at 2k gp, +2 at 8k gp, +3 at 18k gp, +4 at 32k gp, and +5 at cl 20 and 50k gp.
|
|
Sorry, that merciful metamagic rod is just 1500gp, not 2500.
Realistically, the most they should be doing caps around lvl 5, and should be AROUND*:
Lesser Merciful Metamagic Rod (1500gp), ruled by the GM to work as a 1d6dmg club (you could always rule it's just 1d4, though?)
Three shikigami feats -> 3d6, capped at max
Swift action to enter the style, turning the rod into a +4, 3d6+4 weapon.
Next round swift action, using extemporaneous channeler occultist to give the weapon +1 bane (whatever they are fighting) (requires successfully identifying the monster),
they now have a weapon that is effectively +7 to hit, 3d6+2d6+7 dmg, before any other feats or abilities or stats are factored in.
This has taken up their 1st, 3rd, and 5th level feats.
(do note that you can't have shikigami manipulation before level 5).
Should they grow large, 3d6 -> 4d6. No other size modifications should stack.
*I realize that a more effective build would have just 1 level of occultist and 4 levels of something else, like fighter for power attack and furious focus and 4 bab to get an effective +4 ab, +6 dmg to the weapon, maybe with a barbarian/bloodrager dip for rage to boost str -> more attack and dmg. This isn't the "maximum damage they can do" but it's an example of how much their base should probably be, before tweaks and multiclassing.