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I've had some of my fellow players swear that in the CRB there are rules that state you can hook up to six grenades to a single detonator, and use it as a single powerful (and expensive) grenade. I can't find this rule anywhere for the life of me.
Has anyone else seen this or are they pulling a fast one on our GM?
A six grenade bomb took a huge chunk out of what was supposed to be the BBG for the adventure.
Pulling a fast one more or less. There's no rules for what happens when you do this.
It was for an organized play game too, so that really made it odd to me, but they convinced the GM the rule existed and he didn't want to stop play to search the CRB for a single line of text somewhere.
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Lets see what the rulebook says.
Detonator - Tech Items pg 128
This conical device primes and detonates explosives (including grenades) with a push of a button. Programming a detonator to a specific package of explosives takes 1 minute, after which the detonator can be triggered in one of several ways. The detonator can be set to ignite its payload with the simple press of a button (no action), a four-digit command code (a move action), or a complex input method, such as scanning your retina or thumbprint (a full action). You choose the triggering method when setting the detonator. A detonator detonates its payload only if it is within 500 feet, but some detonators can make use of signal-boosting technologies at the risk of becoming vulnerable to countermeasures like signal jammers and other effects. Explosives have the same price, effect, and weight as grenades. If you successfully set an explosive on a stationary object with a detonator using the Engineering skill, the explosive’s damage ignores half of the object’s hardness.
Also if you see the Table 7-26 under "Capacity" it lists 5 for this item with 1/use.
To me this pretty explicitly states that you can take 5 INDIVIDUAL Explosives/Grenades, pack them in a "Conical Device" (Like a breaching Charge). It notes "package" of explosives which tells us that it detonates everything you place inside of it once activated in whichever way you setup.
This may seem powerful being able to trigger up to 5 grenades at once but mind you still have to have access to/loot/pay for them and they would all go off with their own independent Saving Throws none of would be raised by a Dex Modifier. Getting caught in this explosion would trigger 5 Saving throws with each corresponding to a different Grenade.
So, they were incorrect but only in terms of the total capacity for destruction by a digit.
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Considering that for the price of a Frag Grenade II you get 20 Frag Grenades I, it's quite explicit that it's not intended by the rules. 20d6 damage instead of 2d6 damage at level 4 is far from balanced.
So, no, it's nowhere in the rules, and it shouldn't be allowed if you want your fights to stay interesting.
I've had some of my fellow players swear that in the CRB there are rules that state you can hook up to six grenades to a single detonator, and use it as a single powerful (and expensive) grenade. I can't find this rule anywhere for the life of me.
Whether or not you can rig up multiple explosives to the same detonator is a GM discretion type thing, with a lot of wiggle room and gray areas, which means you should assume that one explosive can be rigged to one detonator with one minutes time unless the GM says otherwise.
In regards to your question, that was entirely against the rules. Grenades can't be rigged up to detonators in the first place. Explosives may be the same price, effect and item level as grenades, but explosives are not grenades and grenades are not explosives. Detonators can only detonate explosives, they can't RAW detonate grenades.
This same question was basically addressed here.
But the short answer is: Nowhere does it ever explicitly say this is allowed. And based on other things, it's much more reasonable to assume it is not allowed.
Like, why would you ever buy a level 20 explosive if you could just combine 20 level 1 explosives, for much cheaper.
Lets see what the rulebook says.
Detonator - Tech Items pg 128
This conical device primes and detonates explosives (including grenades) with a push of a button. Programming a detonator to a specific package of explosives takes 1 minute, after which the detonator can be triggered in one of several ways. The detonator can be set to ignite its payload with the simple press of a button (no action), a four-digit command code (a move action), or a complex input method, such as scanning your retina or thumbprint (a full action). You choose the triggering method when setting the detonator. A detonator detonates its payload only if it is within 500 feet, but some detonators can make use of signal-boosting technologies at the risk of becoming vulnerable to countermeasures like signal jammers and other effects. Explosives have the same price, effect, and weight as grenades. If you successfully set an explosive on a stationary object with a detonator using the Engineering skill, the explosive’s damage ignores half of the object’s hardness.
Also if you see the Table 7-26 under "Capacity" it lists 5 for this item with 1/use.
To me this pretty explicitly states that you can take 5 INDIVIDUAL Explosives/Grenades, pack them in a "Conical Device" (Like a breaching Charge). It notes "package" of explosives which tells us that it detonates everything you place inside of it once activated in whichever way you setup.
This may seem powerful being able to trigger up to 5 grenades at once but mind you still have to have access to/loot/pay for them and they would all go off with their own independent Saving Throws none of would be raised by a Dex Modifier. Getting caught in this explosion would trigger 5 Saving throws with each corresponding to a different Grenade.
So, they were incorrect but only in terms of the total capacity for destruction by a digit.
It probably was just five and I was mis-remembering a few days later. Thanks for pointing out the capacity 5 was on a table, that's what I must have been overlooking.
Lets see what the rulebook says.
Detonator - Tech Items pg 128
This conical device primes and detonates explosives (including grenades) with a push of a button. Programming a detonator to a specific package of explosives takes 1 minute, after which the detonator can be triggered in one of several ways. The detonator can be set to ignite its payload with the simple press of a button (no action), a four-digit command code (a move action), or a complex input method, such as scanning your retina or thumbprint (a full action). You choose the triggering method when setting the detonator. A detonator detonates its payload only if it is within 500 feet, but some detonators can make use of signal-boosting technologies at the risk of becoming vulnerable to countermeasures like signal jammers and other effects. Explosives have the same price, effect, and weight as grenades. If you successfully set an explosive on a stationary object with a detonator using the Engineering skill, the explosive’s damage ignores half of the object’s hardness.
Also if you see the Table 7-26 under "Capacity" it lists 5 for this item with 1/use.
To me this pretty explicitly states that you can take 5 INDIVIDUAL Explosives/Grenades, pack them in a "Conical Device" (Like a breaching Charge). It notes "package" of explosives which tells us that it detonates everything you place inside of it once activated in whichever way you setup.
This may seem powerful being able to trigger up to 5 grenades at once but mind you still have to have access to/loot/pay for them and they would all go off with their own independent Saving Throws none of would be raised by a Dex Modifier. Getting caught in this explosion would trigger 5 Saving throws with each corresponding to a different Grenade.
So, they were incorrect but only in terms of the total capacity for destruction by a digit.
"Package of explosive" is the unit of measure that explosives come in.
Like "1 grenade" is equivalent to 1 "package of explosives".
As far as capacity is concerned, it only means you can use the detonator 5 times before it's power reserve is expended. Even if you could hook multiple packages of explosives to be detonated simultaneously it would still only use one charge to set all of them off.
Most everything has been said here, but I just wanted to chime in and mention energy resistances and hardness. 5 grenades going off at once isn't 5d6, it's (1d6-Resistance)x5. Items and beefy characters aren't going to take much damage.
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As a recommended house rule, have the damage and radius increase by 1 die and 1 square for every doubling of the payload, respectively. (For example, using 8 identical grenades would result in +15 foot radius that does +3 dice worth of damage.)
That along with the prohibitive cost would keep it from being used too often.
D20 Modern did something similar with its explosive rules and it always worked out fantastically.
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I've had some of my fellow players swear that in the CRB there are rules that state you can hook up to six grenades to a single detonator, and use it as a single powerful (and expensive) grenade. I can't find this rule anywhere for the life of me.Whether or not you can rig up multiple explosives to the same detonator is a GM discretion type thing, with a lot of wiggle room and gray areas, which means you should assume that one explosive can be rigged to one detonator with one minutes time unless the GM says otherwise.
In regards to your question, that was entirely against the rules. Grenades can't be rigged up to detonators in the first place. Explosives may be the same price, effect and item level as grenades, but explosives are not grenades and grenades are not explosives. Detonators can only detonate explosives, they can't RAW detonate grenades.
Did you ever read the statblock, it LITERALLY states "primes and detonates explosives (including grenades)" right in the first sentence.
You seem to be confusing RAW with your personal view on how it should work.
You can fit 5 grenades in and detonate them all at once. It's really quite simple, just .... read the book.
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You can detonate grenades that much is clear.
Doing 5 at once is your personal view that isn't supported by the rules.
Capacity rules determine how many times you can use an item.
If you could connect multiple items, it wouldn't be limited by capacity. Capacity simply means you can use the detonator 5 times before it's internal power runs out and you have to buy a new one.
It doesn't even cover whether you could recharge it or not in the case of a detonator.
Personally I like Raving Dork's suggestions as a moderate way to reward "ingenuity" without allowing it be overpowering.
Also I'm not sure that once you have five all wired together it's going to be easy to throw anymore. I would say non-proficient with a 5 or 10 ft range increment at that point?
Apparently I am blind, whoops.
Now, 'package of explosives' is the sticking point up to GM discretion. Is that one? as many as you have free hands including the detonator? All explosives in reach? an infinite amount?
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Regardless if you're using the Detonator you're going to have to spend 1 full minute setting up the Explosives wherever you want them, throwing them and detonating is simply not in the cards, the device simply wouldn't work in that situation.
So, there IS no throwing this item for on the fly in-combat use... thats part of my justification for why this equipment is not "OP."
To me, "package of explosives" tells me everything I need to know, and the 5 Capacity indicates how much "Ammo" it fits. The 1/use is there to indicate that the Device is consumed when you use it.
These would all be DC 10 Saving throws for Frag Grenades MKI, and even for the most crazy Frag VIII Detonator with 5 enclosed in the blasting cap you'd still be looking at only a DC 20 Saving throw, something that ANY CR 20 Creature is going to make on a roll of 3+, esp given that they'd need to make 5 throws...
I just don't see ANY wording anywhere in the description that would indicate that it can only hold 1 Grenade, it would literally just be a straightup downgrade for more time and money investment in order to simply reduce an items hardness by 1/2.
All that aside, this probably needs FAQd for clarity since it's clear that different people read it differently.
Even if you can't connect a detonator to five grenades at once, I think it's clear that you can connect five detonators each to one grenade. As a skittermander, you hold all five detonators and as a free action set all of them off.
Detonators are a bucket of worms from a game-balance standpoint.
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To me, "package of explosives" tells me everything I need to know, and the 5 Capacity indicates how much "Ammo" it fits. The 1/use is there to indicate that the Device is consumed when you use it.
Please see the text on how to read the table which contains the detonator on core book page 218.
Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that
requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical
charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190).
The detonator's entry does not indicate that its capacity is measured in grenades rather than charges. Thus it means you can detonate 5 explosives with it before you need to recharge or replace it.
Contrast the grenade launchers on page 178 which explicitly have their capacities listed as X grenades.
To me, "package of explosives" tells me everything I need to know, and the 5 Capacity indicates how much "Ammo" it fits. The 1/use is there to indicate that the Device is consumed when you use it.Please see the text on how to read the table which contains the detonator on core book page 218.
Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that
requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical
charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190).The detonator's entry does not indicate that its capacity is measured in grenades rather than charges. Thus it means you can detonate 5 explosives with it before you need to recharge or replace it.
Contrast the grenade launchers on page 178 which explicitly have their capacities listed as X grenades.
I tried to point this out already, but themetricsystem isn't listening.
So if i can duct tape 5 grenades together this pistol should be 24d6 damage at level 1 right?
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So if i can duct tape 5 grenades together this pistol should be 24d6 damage at level 1 right?
So right :D
I want a plasma flame launcher rocket bolter thrower, tactical red star subzero!Duct tape weapons for the win!!
So if everything is being interpreted properly a detonator can be used to detonate 5 explosives or grenades primed to that detonator?
So if everything is being interpreted properly a detonator can be used to detonate 5 explosives or grenades primed to that detonator?
There's no agreed upon interpretation. It's all GM discretion.
The only guaranteed thing you can do at any table is detonate one grenade using one of a detonator's charges after spending one minute to link the detonator to the grenade.
Anything else is going to be up to the GM.
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So if everything is being interpreted properly a detonator can be used to detonate 5 explosives or grenades primed to that detonator?
No.
Most of the people in this thread would disagree with that interpretation. The only person asserting that is themetricsystem who is conflating the capacity of the detonator to say that you can attach 5 explosives/grenades to it.
Rather than realizing it means it can be used to set off 5 things, with no definition of "how many" things can be set off at once.
So if everything is being interpreted properly a detonator can be used to detonate 5 explosives or grenades primed to that detonator?
Sequentially, sure.
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That's also a great way to rule it Nimor.
Heck, I might even be generous and say you can keep combining more for higher and higher save DCs and blast radius. The part that's unbalancing about multiple grenades is the damage increase. Not accounting for appropriate DR or energy resistance, 20 grenades would do a minimum of 20 damage.
But by simply expanding the blast radius and save DC, sure the damage might be more likely to be full but you're still only dealing 1d6 with a level 1 grenade cluster.
Edit: Actually, I think I like this rule best on how to deal with. Sure, you can cause a planet wide explosion with a save DC of infinity. Most people survive and now everyone hates you.
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As a Game Master (or Star Lord)
Who?
In the Dead Suns adventure, book 2, encounter C5, the enemy has rigged 10 explosives to go off, triggered with a detonator all in one go. In the example, the explosives are used to destroy a large section of ceiling, making it fall down on the PCs, so it’s falling debris that hurts the players, not the actual explosion itself. So I think it is fairl to say that you can rig several explosives to go off at once. L
I would still have the area of effect increased, and not the damage.
We discussed that above and said that was more a plot device than an actual example with rules to explain how it was done.
My group played through this scenario, and I freaked out at first because our GM had the NPC monologue about having "several explosives rigged to go". When they set them off we thought we we're going to die. And then the explosion did no damage to us and we just had to roll to avoid the falling debris.
If anything I think this is more an example of a plot "hazard" that just happens to use "explosives" as a dramatic example, rather than a mechanical one.
For the purpose of deciding if you can detonate several of explosives at once it is. We are not talking about a special NPC/monster ability here - it’s weapon items: explosives and detonators plus skills engineering.
It's really not. And even if it were, the example given has the explosives deal no damage to people and instead cause the building to collapse. So sure, if you set up explosives in advance of the people you're trying to kill in their building and then lure them in you can detonate them and deal building collapse damage.
But you don't make a super bomb.
My point is the rules don't explicitly cover what would happen if you combine grenades.
I agree it probably should be possible, but we simply don't have rules that cover it anywhere.
People have provided reasonable house rules in this thread about how to approach it.
But saying that "the adventure path does it" and using that to imply that it should just be linear damage increase isn't supported by anything.
Now, you seem to be saying that you don't support a linear damage increase, although the original poster seemed to. I was still focusing on that aspect where people were trying to argue that 20 level 1 explosives would do 20d6 damage.
I'd be all for increasing the save DC and radius by putting multiple grenades or explosives together. If you want to spend 20 grenades worth of credits to and increase the radius by 20 squares and the DC by 20 and still only have it do 1d6...hey I'm pretty okay with that. The radius and DC increases are exaggerations, but with the damage not scaling it just shouldn't be much of an issue.
For grouping explosives I agree that increasing the radius and DC are reasonable but not increasing the damage seems unreasonable. Linear progression is very unbalancing and counter to the feel of the game so that's out.
Why not use damage dice progression such as the rules listed here. You could use an opened ended progression for cases where more numerous explosives/grenades are being set off at once. Combine it with a DC adjustment and a radius adjustment based on the same progression.
One question is would/should this be used with non-kinetic based grenades? Game mechanics wise I'd assume so but realistically speaking (yea I know, no such thing) the kinetic grenades rely on explosive force but others, like cryo based ones, not necessarily.
Just thinking out loud.
Considering the number of players asking about this, I think it should be FAQed. It would end all debates with a "read the FAQ", and no more homebrew stuff with increased radiuses or whatever, just an official ruling.
Considering the number of players asking about this, I think it should be FAQed. It would end all debates with a "read the FAQ", and no more homebrew stuff with increased radiuses or whatever, just an official ruling.
I definitely can get behind this.
Imagine hooking up 190 missiles (50 Tactical, 50 Stellar, 30 Advanced, 30 Ionized, and 30 Plasma HED) to a detonator and then blowing it up. That is 300d8 + 400d8 + 390d8 + 360d10 + 510d12. That minimum damage is <_1960 damage and the max is 18,440 damage. That would probably blow a large base to smithereens. This was so.ething I came up with a 20 million credit Level 20 Bombard soldier for fun.
Hell that would probably blow up a Large ship or bigger
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Duct tape. it has a light side, a dark side, and binds grenades together so you can blow the universe apart