How Deadly Can You Make A Dagger?


Advice

1 to 50 of 77 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

I like the Fkying Blade archtype for Swashbucklers, which revolves around daggers or starknives. The starknife has a dozen feats like Star of Desna and Slashing Grace which can apply, but I much prefer the dagger.

So as a human, how far can the dagger be pushed as a weapon? Obviously not as far as the starknife, but it's gotta be respectable.


Your best bet in that regard is the Knife Master rogue, I'd say. d8's for sneak attack damage with daggers is a HUGE boost to power.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Divine obedience (Pharasma) gives +2 attack with daggers. The river rat trait gives +1 damage
IIRC. Possessed hand would help whether you mean one dagger or TWF. Slashing grace can be used with a dagger if you like.

Warpriests can up the base damage of anything, similarly fighters with an advanced weapon training. It takes a lot of feats but a feat in the ascetic style line does the same.

Named bullet can apply to a thrown weapon if it's just one deadly attack you want. Better with a higher crit weapon though.

There's a bunch of specific magic weapons. IIRC there's at least one such dagger which involves poison, and the dagger of doubling which makes high level TWF dagger use cheaper if it's further enchanted.

Any idea which way you want to push the dagger as a weapon? It'd be easier if you lay any preconditions like 'true hybrid form' out in advance.


A Champion focused medium who is a halfling (or a human who spends a feat to qualify for the halfling FCB) can do some scary damage with daggers, just by stacking all the static bonuses (twf is good if you can spare the feats). A vigilante twfing with lethal grace can also get pretty scary. Both of these eventually can get pounce.


avr wrote:
Any idea which way you want to push the dagger as a weapon? It'd be easier if you lay any preconditions like 'true hybrid form' out in advance.

More general. As mentioned I'm probably making a Flying Blade, as it's closest to the 5e Rogue concept I had that I'm trying to convert. It was a lot of weild one dagger defensively, throw as many of the other as you can manage. 5e Rogues have really good action economy.

Mostly, it's what kind of feats are out there for daggers. I can always tweak the combat style to work with the feats available.


Well, are you primarily interested in throwing or stabbing? It's hard to do both equally well.

So River Rat and Deific Obedience (Pharasma) are good choices for any dagger character, but most flying blades I have seen focus around throwing and so go for the startoss style chain (for the bonus damage as much as anything) and also richochet toss (ask your GM if a swashbuckler's weapon training analogue qualifies, by RAW it doesn't but this is silly; if it doesn't "Martial Focus" isn't the worst feat.)


Since you probably want the +1/level swashbuckler precise strike damage bonus you'll be using a single dagger then. OK, on feats the startoss style line works just fine with daggers despite the name. If you can afford some Int then VMC magus gives feat replacements which are good at all levels except 11 (spellstrike just won't be useful to you unless you multiclass normally as well). Given you have a hand free and plan to be ranged then deflect arrows might help; martial focus & cut from the air/smash from the air are an alternative which requires 13 Str and one more feat.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
The starknife has a dozen feats like Star of Desna and Slashing Grace which can apply, but I much prefer the dagger.

Starknife has three specific feats (Divine Fighting Technique -> Desna's Shooting Star, Starry Grace, and Guided Star), with Starry Grace being just a special version of Slashing Grace, and Guided Star being rather underwhelming due to the way too limited daily uses.

For a Flying Blade, dagger is actually better than starknife (because of how over-reliant Swashbuckler is on crits).

Helpful feats might be Martial Focus + Ricochet Toss, and either the Startoss line or Rapid Shot. You basically need to throw, of the archetype is a strict downgrade.


You might look here for a few ideas:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mis1&page=3?The-PFS-DPR-Olympics-12th-lev el-challenge#119


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Pfft. XD Startoss + Ricochet is just ridiculous in concept.

The dagger leaves my hand, zips through a bunch of enemies, and then back to my hand.

Even just ricochet on a full attack. Just bouncing your dagger off an enemy repeatedly.

Makes no sense. XD Startoss is defs the way to go, if only for +6 damage. Rapid shot makes more sense just from a physics perspective. There's also no reason not to go for both eventually. Startoss Shower isn't very helpful vs a single big opponent, so Rapid Shot would be wanted for those situations.

I was honestly thinking more a Blinkback Belt than crazy physics-defying ricochets, but it does work. Will need to ponder on it.


The trait and Obedience, as mentioned.

But build a Flying Blade if that is what you want to do.

You can include 4 levels of Rogue (Knife Master/Scout), you get 2D8 sneak attack damage on any charge you make, one feat makes it 3D8. They don't have to be your first levels, or even consecutive. For the two Rogue Talents you get, take Fast Getaway and Slow Reactions. This will help with the whole Rogue thing that you said you are trying to accomplish with your Flying Blade.

For feats: Quickdraw, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Point Blank Shot, Shot on the Run, Partying Shot

For Equipment: Agile Dagger, Blinkback Belt, Decoy Ring

For Tactics: Use your charge to activate your sneak attack damage if you have to engage in melee. Use Fast Getaway to Withdraw (activating your Decoy Ring), you move to your new location invisible, and throw your dagger as you depart for more sneak attack damage/Slow Reactions. I think the Flying Blade's Disruptive Counter Deed will go great with this.

Otherwise stick to using Shot on the Run with your Blinkback Belt.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Makes no sense. XD Startoss is defs the way to go, if only for +6 damage. Rapid shot makes more sense just from a physics perspective.

I'm sorry, I thought these were the Pathfinder message boards. Seriously, if you want your characters to be 100% based in real life, don't play Pathfinder!

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I was honestly thinking more a Blinkback Belt than crazy physics-defying ricochets

Because nothing about a magic item that teleports weapons is "physics-defying", how stupid of me.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

You could play a warpriest and hove your base damage dice go up with level, or you could just be an inquisitor, use judgements and slap bane on your dagger and have the base damage dice be inconsequential. Power Attacking with a huge Strength isn't that much weaker on a dagger than any other one-handed weapon.


Derklord wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Makes no sense. XD Startoss is defs the way to go, if only for +6 damage. Rapid shot makes more sense just from a physics perspective.

I'm sorry, I thought these were the Pathfinder message boards. Seriously, if you want your characters to be 100% based in real life, don't play Pathfinder!

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I was honestly thinking more a Blinkback Belt than crazy physics-defying ricochets
Because nothing about a magic item that teleports weapons is "physics-defying", how stupid of me.

I didn't mean it as any sort of slight. I was just amused more than anything. Startoss and Ricochet seem more like magical effects than feats. I picture the arrow fellow from Guardians of the Galaxy when I read their effects more than a skilled swordsman, martial artist, or cunning rogue. Comparatively my other throwing character, a Hinyasi Brawler, can throw a dozen rocks from seemingly nowhere with ridiculous efficiency.

My first imagining of the character was with a dozen daggers on a bandolier tossing as they go. I find it funny that to get the most out of each throw, the feats incentivize just having one with a level of nonsense. It is a good thing there are feats though that prevent needing to rely on specific magic items.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:

Pfft. XD Startoss + Ricochet is just ridiculous in concept.

The dagger leaves my hand, zips through a bunch of enemies, and then back to my hand.

It's not like there isn't precedent for this sort of thing in popular fantasy. If anything, the Swashbuckler is *the* martial who should be pulling off improbable stuff like this.

Sovereign Court

For the throwing build: 2 level dip in Far Strike Monk for 3 bonus feats (4 if you equate flurry with rapid shot), 3 to all saves, evasion earlier, wis to AC, though you'll end up more MAD.
And with a Fortuitous Dagger and Disruptive Counter, you'll actually want to provoke AoOs by throwing from melee range.


ryric wrote:
You could play a warpriest and hove your base damage dice go up with level,

And cast Righteous Might and get a Size Bump to Damage.

ryric wrote:
or you could just be an inquisitor, use judgements and slap bane on your dagger and have the base damage dice be inconsequential.

I like Inquisitor for the Teamwork Feats. Say take Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunist, and you will get an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are Attacked. Maybe Outflank or that other one and Improved Critical, although that combo would work better with Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage, There's a Warpriest Archetype that gets a Bonus Teamwork Feat and Tactician. Holy Tactician, iirc.

ryric wrote:
Power Attacking with a huge Strength isn't that much weaker on a dagger than any other one-handed weapon.

There is a Feat, Piranha Strike, which is Power Attack for Light Weapons.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
halfling (or a human who spends a feat to qualify

Racial Heritage, iirc.

There is a Halfling Feat, Risky Striker, which is also like Power Attack except you sacrifice AC for Damage instead of Attack.

VoodistMonk wrote:
You can include 4 levels of Rogue

3 levels in Unchained Rogue will let you Dex-to-Damage with your Daggers. Then there are lots of ways to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage, Quick and Greater dirty tricks to Blind your opponents, for instance. I like Snakebite Striker Brawler with that Snake Feint. If you are Feinting while you are moving, say as a Halfling or Human with Racial Heritage, maybe also take Panther and Ascetic style feats and get multiple attacks/round inflicting SAD Damage every time. Slayers also get SAD and Bounty Hunter Slayers get a Class Ability that works like Quick Dirty Trick.


Alright, I think I've got something working. Plan is going to be first 5 levels in Swashbuckler (Flying Blade) to get all the frontloaded abilities including +5 at attack and damage on the dagger. Then a 3 level dip into Unchained Rogue (Knife Master) since it changes the need for the Slashing Grace feat into a class ability, freeing up a feat choice, and can pick up the Fast Getaway which synergizes really well with Parting Shot if I do end up stuck in melee with something. With Accomplished Sneak Attacker the 3d8 sneak makes up for the +3 lost from Flying Blade Training (2d8 is still fine if the extra feat isn't available). After that, back to Flying Blade until character end.

So I wanna get feats as follows, though I'm not 100% sure on the order to get the most out of each level. Organized by chain:

Quick Draw

Point Blank Shot
- Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Parting Shot
- Weapon Focus (Dagger), Startoss Style, Startoss Comet, Startoss Shower
- Precise Shot

Combat Expertise, Improved Steal

Signature Skill (Sleight of Hand)

Accomplished Sneak Attacker

Precise Shot is more a tax than working towards the combo. Not so much worried about always getting Sneak Attack, but hear me out.

Signature Skill Sleight of Hand means at level 5 it can be done as part of a Steal maneuver, and at level 15 Sleight can be performed as a Swift action on its own. Since Sleight is one of the triggers for Fast Getaway, perform this quick snatch or dagger palm and get the withdraw as a move. That withdraw triggers Parting Shot giving an attack on the withdraw, and if it was the swift action Sleight (rather than the Standard Steal) then the standard action is still available for a Startoss.

Downside, never get ricochet shot. I was imagining the startoss as similiar to having invisible wire on the dagger and manipulating it through the air, they tugging it back. Getting that combo working is pretty heavy on feat reliance.


There is also the opportunity for 5 levels of Fighter after Rogue. Weapon Training at 5 will mean the dip doesn't lose the +1 to attack and damage on the dagger, but in exchange there's 2 extra bonus feats in that range, as well as not needing the extra feat to apply for Ricochet Shot.

There's also the opportunity for a Fighter Archtype that'll push things further. Someone mentioned the Far Strike Monk which would be nice on a 6 level dip to get Shot on the Run and Parting Shot without prereqs, but the additional MAD due to needing Wis in the build and of course making those feats need 6 extra levels (not counting the 2 of rogue needed for the synergy) means the character doesn't come truly online for basically forever.

EDIT: After reading, the Weapon Master seems like a really good archtype. It reduces the level dip to only 3 since it gets Weapon Training at 3 instead of 5 (albeit slightly weaker), and there's still 2 bonus feats to get. So effectively 3 free feats for a 3 level dip.

End build: Swashbuckler (Flying Blade) X, Unchained Rogue (Knife Master) 3, Fighter (Weapon Master) 3.


With the Fighter addition, I'm thinking the best order of levels for the character will be first 3 levels the U Rogue Knife Master, since the Dex - damage is going to be the most valuable asset. (Starting with 8 Str, 19 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha, so negating the Str penalty comes first). Then swap over to 3 levels of Fighter Weapon Master (Dagger) to get the bonus feats and the first quick instance of Weapon Training, then 7 finally swap over to Swashbuckler Flying Blade. Unfortunate that it'll be level 11 before Improved Critical kicks in, but I think that this is probably the best order in terms of keeping power growth steady.


... and then it all fell through.

Finesse Training and Slashing Grace both specify melee attacks. You can't get Dex - damage on thrown through either of those routes.

Back to the drawing board...


If you want to stack the damage on daggers, even if you're not going to use the feat chain for the original purpose (bouncing things off people) each feat in the startoss style chain does give you +2 damage to every attack with daggers, so you can basically take weapon specialization 4 times.


Note to self. Come back to this later and dump my Alchemist.

Doesn't Agile weapon enchantment give you Dex to Damage with a knife? Or was there a reason I missed you don't want that?

I had, at one point, a rather good throwing dagger alchemist build.

Off hand I think it had the Startoss feats + Empty Quiver+ Toxicant poison

Empty Quiver is a weird situation though. The fluff sites 3 weapons. but the crunch only requires weapon focus in chosen weapon.
My GM let it apply to my Dagger. Because they uses fluff as a vague guideline (because there are more than a few feat whose fluff directly argues against its own crunch).

So I could add several of the damage boosts from Startoss to it. So extra melee damage with it, which was nice.
-------

IF i was redoing this these days. As not an alchemist. I think I would look into a Kukri, Jitte, sai or something like that.
Then use StarToss + Shikigami style+certain traits to throw it improvised weapon style, with several categories larger. This combined with vital Strike is pretty fun.
3 style feats from shikigami = 3x the effective improvised die size +vital strike is really amusing for me.

It isn't the most effective, nor the most feat efficient. but it did a nice job of representing "that guy who could throw a bowie knife with deadly precision" that I wanted.

hmm..
Extra points if you can do a Warpriest with "improvised weapon" as your choice..
but that might not stack with shikigami


Zwordsman wrote:
Then use StarToss + Shikigami style+certain traits to throw it improvised weapon style, with several categories larger.

Wouldn't work. Can only be in 1 style at a time, and Startoss is a style, same as Shikigami. The same would be true of Empty Quiver Style? Unless you're a class like the fighter archtype that lets you be in 2 styles at once, neither of your suggestions would work.


In order to be in two styles at once, you can use Weapon Style Mastery, which is compatible with Startoss since it has weapon focus as a prereq.

I *think* this should still be compatible with Richochet toss, since that feat requires "weapon training with a ranged weapon" which a dagger is even if your weapon training is through the light blades group. I strongly recommend Ricochet toss since it saves you a ton of money on enchanting a big stack of daggers/lets you have a dex belt instead of a blinkback belt.


I suggested 4 levels in the Scout archetype, which stacks with Knife Master, to get sneak attack any time you charge. It's the 4th level ability granted by the Scout archetype. Increasing your opportunities to get sneak attack damage reliably is worth the extra level, in my opinion. You could still be UnChained Rogue for Dexterity to damage without Slashing Grace.


VoodistMonk wrote:
I suggested 4 levels in the Scout archetype, which stacks with Knife Master, to get sneak attack any time you charge. It's the 4th level ability granted by the Scout archetype. Increasing your opportunities to get sneak attack damage reliably is worth the extra level, in my opinion. You could still be UnChained Rogue for Dexterity to damage without Slashing Grace.

The problem is none of being a Scout really works with how the character is intended to play. And both those Dex - damage optons don't apply to thrown, meaning for the main type of combat the character will be doing it's a 4 level dip for effectively nothing but sneak.


I think the only way to get dex-to-damage on throwing weapons is to put the agile special ability on them, which gets really expensive to do multiples of so you're going to want a blinkback belt, ricochet toss, or I guess the sharding special ability on your main weapon (which is even more expensive, but it's cool).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I like the Fkying Blade archtype for Swashbucklers, which revolves around daggers or starknives. The starknife has a dozen feats like Star of Desna and Slashing Grace which can apply, but I much prefer the dagger.
Well, the one thing you can do with a dagger that you can't do with a starknife is exploit a dex-rage class class. (True, you can throw starknives with dex, but I assume most starknife builds are enamored of Desna's Shooting Star charisma tricks, particularly if they're also swashbucklers.)
Quote:
So as a human, how far can the dagger be pushed as a weapon? Obviously not as far as the starknife, but it's gotta be respectable.

Why be a human when goblins are so much more fun?

STR- 5
DEX++ 21 (goblin, 20pt buy)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA- 5

racial alternative: Over-Sized Ears
traits: River Rat, Goblin Foolhardiness
01 barbarian1 (Hurler/SavTech), Extra Rage
02 uRogue1 [Knifemaster/?][finesse][SA+1d6]
03 uRogue2 [combat trick:Quick Draw], Two Weapon Fighting
04 uRogue3 [dex>damage:dagger], DEX>22
05 Cavalier1 [Luring/Order of the Land], Boon Companion
06 Cavalier2 [Adaptive Strike:Catch Off Guard]
07 Fighter1 [Skirmisher][Martial Focus], Ricochet Toss
08 Cavalier3 [Careful Aim]
09 Cavalier4 [Expert Trainer], Horse Master (retrain Boon Companion to Mounted Combat or Chain Challenge)
10 (any)

equipment: +3 dagger, Vambraces of the Tactician, Champion's Banner, +4 belt. Sniper Goggles, Goz Mask

damage:
d3
+1 River Rat
+3 enhancement
+10 raging dexterity of 30
+10 Challenge (9th)
+2d8 (sneak-attack)

Where to go at 10th: ...more cavalier piles up more challenges and more challenge damage; wapriest makes the weapon die bigger and locks in Deific Obedience (Pharasma) by trading a lesser blessing (although this build hardly needs higher attack bonus). uRogue4 is a good choice, as is Sohei monk with the bonus feat in Mounted Skirmisher.


To my knowledge, the OP was rebuilding a 5e ROGUE...

A couple levels of Rogue to get the quintessential Rogue ability, Sneak Attack, didn't seem far fetched.

I didn't specify UnChained Rogue because the Agile weapon enchantment doesn't care if you throw the melee weapon you have Weapon Finesse for... dexterity to damage without Slashing Grace or UnChained Rogue.

The 4th level Scout archetype ability just gives a reliable way to use the quintessential Rogue ability, Sneak Attack.

But if we aren't trying to rebuild the 5e Rogue from the OP, then disregard everything I have said.

Four levels scattered throughout a Flying Blade Swashbuckler build isn't unreasonable to add D8 sneak attack and some Rogue Talents to achieve the vibe of the previous Rogue.

Flying Blade appears to cater to the hit and run style that Spring Attack/Shot on the Run/Parting Shot would allow the character to do. The OP said one dagger, not two, so these tactics seem like the superior option.

I could be wrong, as I have never played a Flying Blade, nor played with one. So what would I know?


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the only way to get dex-to-damage on throwing weapons is to put the agile special ability on them, which gets really expensive to do multiples of so you're going to want a blinkback belt, ricochet toss, or I guess the sharding special ability on your main weapon (which is even more expensive, but it's cool).

Been meaning to reply on agile. It's probably going to be the only way to shore up the character concept.

I have a bit of a philosophy though when I build, and it's generally to try and not be dependent on a specific magic item or enchantment. Like... Magic to me should be an enhancement not mandatory. Probably why I've built so many unarmed and improvised characters as of late. My goal was to explore every other option first before throwing in the towel.

As it stands, I likely won't be able to make the character I wanted, though I did get an idea through all this for a kusarigama-type combat character with a weapon they can manipulate through the air with Startoss + Ricochet.


The human only feat Martial Versatility would allow you to apply the effects of Starry Grace to all Light Blades. A swashbucklers bonus feats may be used to select fighter only feats. You could have Dex to damage with all light blades online by 4th level. The downside being that you must sacrifice a feat for Weapon Focus (Starknife).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-huma n/


Isaac Zephyr wrote:


I have a bit of a philosophy though when I build, and it's generally to try and not be dependent on a specific magic item or enchantment. Like... Magic to me should be an enhancement not mandatory.

Problem with this is that very much so, a lot of the core design in Pathfinder assumes magic as a normative function of leveling. And so often leave certain options purely to a magic (or i guess magi-tech in the techguide) choice.

The game itself is very much against completely mundane concepts. One reason something like the Alchemist is still a magic class, and never got (that i know of) an archtype turning it completely EX based and switching extracts for free boosted alch items. (though the 2E prototype was pleasingly amicable to mundanity)


Plus, I feel like "specific enhancements on magic weapons/armor" are the sort of thing one would plausibly commission with qualified crafters (as these things are so expensive to make they are only done on commission.)

It's not like you're looking for a specific named magic item (who all was making all those Jingasas in Cheliax exactly?), you just want someone to inscribe the correct runes in your sword.


I think that you might be focusing too much on getting dex to dmg on thrown attacks. I mean its good and you should go for it, but its not the end all be all.

If you go for the U. Rogue option it seems better to try and spend resources on diversifying, making for an agile and versatile switchhitter.

If you go for Fighter, than getting Trained Throw and Gloves of Dueling would give +3 to atk and +6 to dmg with daggers. On top of any fighter feat you get (Ex ranged weapon mastery/targeting feat).


It would take 9 levels into Fighter to get Trained Throw though (and the bonus would be +4 atk, +8 damage with the gloves at that point, which I do like). At which point making a Fighter would just be better.

Honestly, 3 levels of Fighter Weapon Master might be the only worthwhile dip. Just because it saves a feat in Martial Focus and gives 2 bonus feats for the cost of the Swashbuckler capstone, 19th level deeds, 1 point of Nimble and 1 bonus feat. As nice as Sneak is, the build is too feat reliant to get properly rolling, and cutting that out evens it out a bit at the cost of some power. May not even need the extra feats from Fighter with the need for Parting Shot removed (though I'd swap that feat line for the Rapid Shot lines and bursting down single targets).

Gotta do some reading to re-determine what feats I want for the build again.


It doesn't take 9 levels of fighter to get your first advanced weapon training- you can take the "advanced weapon training" feat with 5 fighter levels (4 if you're a weapon master).

But the "double your weapon training" options aren't great unless all your levels are fighter. It's possible a GM could rule "you can count your swashbuckler weapon training as weapon training, and since you can count your levels as fighter levels for purposes of bonus feats, take "advanced weapon training" as a bonus feat at 8th level if you wanted to. It's kind of silly how many things that are "reskinned weapon training" don't count for things like weapon mastery feats and awt.


Yeah, I'm starting to pick up on that. I get trying to give fighters something unique to them, but if you're making hybrid fighter classes with the same abilities but with an extra word at the beginning, it should probably count as that ability.


That restriction has to do with a multiple of abilities that share similar mechanics but shouldn't stack unless specified.

And I agree that they aren't as good for multiclassed fighter, but it is effectively a scalling Weapon Specialization so I mentioned it as an option.


ryric wrote:
You could play a warpriest and hove your base damage dice go up with level, or you could just be an inquisitor, use judgements and slap bane on your dagger and have the base damage dice be inconsequential. Power Attacking with a huge Strength isn't that much weaker on a dagger than any other one-handed weapon.

Fighter does the same thing as the warpriest with Focused Weapon, and gets to add in weapon specialization and weapon training bonuses.


Despite what the title of this discussion, the OP has said that it is the 5e Rogue that is being rebuilt into Pathfinder. Possibly a particular 5e Rogue that has been played in the past, that used a single dagger. This is not a min/max dagger discussion, to my knowledge.

9 levels of Fighter hardly sounds like a 5e Rogue. 3 of Weapon Master, maybe just for Gloves of Dueling, but the OP already said that the Flying Blade Swashbuckler is what fits the particular character being rebuilt. Why stray so far from the OP's request?

Being reliant on magical enchantment properties is not that big of a crutch. Agile is a +1 enchantment, relatively cheap all things considered. Especially when the OP has said only one dagger is being used. Agile only requires a melee weapon with Weapon Finesse... it doesn't care if you throw the aforementioned melee weapon with Weapon Finesse.

If anything, we should be helping the OP build the best Flying Blade Swashbuckler with one dagger, as possible, because that is what this discussion is actually about...

Or, perhaps, everyone can continue to offer completely different builds that in no way resemble a 5e Rogue.

Not to toot my own horn, but...
1. Swashbuckler-1 (Flying Blade)
2. Rogue-1 (Knife Master/ Scout)
3. Swashbuckler-2 (Flying Blade)
4. Rogue-2 (Knife Master/ Scout)
5. Swashbuckler-3 (Flying Blade)
6. Rogue-3 (Knife Master/ Scout)
7. Swashbuckler-4 (Flying Blade)
8. Rogue-4 (Knife Master/ Scout)
9+.Swashbuckler-5 (Flying Blade)

Leaves you -1BAB, but full Rogue utility in your otherwise Flying Blade Swashbuckler build. Way more skills than either would have alone. Oh yeah, D8 Sneak Attack...


VoodistMonk wrote:
Especially when the OP has said only one dagger is being used.

For a clarification, I actually never said just one dagger. To the contrary, my second post specifies it was one dagger defensively to take advantage of Defensive Duelist to use my reaction to buff my AC, and then using the free hand to quick draw and toss other daggers freely. They carried about 5 at any given time.

Flying Blade fits the style best because of Disrupting Counter, which does exactly what Defensive Duelist did and then some. Then you of course get the heavy focus on thrown daggers with Flying Blade, and deeds like Precise Strike which hold similarity to Sneak Attack.

However a lot of the Swashbuckler abilities ask for a single weapon and free hand, in particular there's feats like Slashing Grace. So somehow things dropped to singke dagger over the course of conversation.


Can't we do this straight swashbuckler? One can make an argument for 11 levels of Swash at least, since taking signature deed on disrupting counter can be borderline hilarious (you can attack anyone who attacks you as an AoO!) Plus you get to add all your class levels to damage with precise strike.

Getting to 11 as a swashbuckler gets you 9 feats, so you could take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Deific Obedience (Pharasma), Richochet toss*, weapon specialization (dagger), Combat Reflexes, and then Signature Deed (Disrupting Counter).

*It's my personal opinion that ersatz weapon training should count for purposes of Weapon Mastery feats, but not Advanced Weapon Training.


avr wrote:

Divine obedience (Pharasma) gives +2 attack with daggers. The river rat trait gives +1 damage

IIRC. Possessed hand would help whether you mean one dagger or TWF. Slashing grace can be used with a dagger if you like.

Warpriests can up the base damage of anything, similarly fighters with an advanced weapon training. It takes a lot of feats but a feat in the ascetic style line does the same.

Named bullet can apply to a thrown weapon if it's just one deadly attack you want. Better with a higher crit weapon though.

There's a bunch of specific magic weapons. IIRC there's at least one such dagger which involves poison, and the dagger of doubling which makes high level TWF dagger use cheaper if it's further enchanted.

Any idea which way you want to push the dagger as a weapon? It'd be easier if you lay any preconditions like 'true hybrid form' out in advance.

i can't seem to find Divine Obedience anywhere. is it a feat, trait, or what?


I am Nemesis wrote:
i can't seem to find Divine Obedience anywhere. is it a feat, trait, or what?

It's actually Deific Obedience, here's the Pharasma Version.


What if it was one guy with six guns...?

With [Dodge, Mobility, QuickDraw, Point Blank Shot] Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Parting Shot... a multitude of daggers and a Blinkback Belt overcome many obstacles.

The Flying Blade Deeds combined with a few Rogue Talents, and some D8 Sneak Attack, you have a player in the game.

Oh wait, I have a dagger for this, says the Rogue (who is actually a Swashbuckler)...


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I am Nemesis wrote:
i can't seem to find Divine Obedience anywhere. is it a feat, trait, or what?
It's actually Deific Obedience, here's the Pharasma Version.

thanks for the link, PossibleCabbage. still having issue with how to apply it to a build i'm working on. i'm using hero lab and can't seem to find a way to apply it to a character, much less finding it in the hero lab database. any ideas on what i'm doing wrong?


I was actually considering raw swash for Signature Deed.

Deific Obedience can be swapped for Martial Focus to avoid any need to argue whether Flying Blade Training counts (Flying Blade replaces Swashbuckler Weapon Training, so by Advanced Weapon Teaining's FAQ it wouldn't apply, even though the ability is fundamentally the same).

Downside, 11 levels in without Rapid Shot or Startoss. I would almost swap specialization for Startoss only for the fact it builds into further feats for more damage and attacks. And then dumb as it is, possibly forgo Precise Shot for further pushing (or at least delay it).

Precise Shot is like, the biggest feat tax for ranged characters... But with Startoss Comet I won't really have enough allies next to targets to need it all the time. Just need to play smarter.


1. Swashbuckler-1 (Flying Blade)
1. Weapon Finesse
1. Feat (Point Blank Shot)
2. Rogue-1 (Knife Master/ Scout)
2. 1D8 Sneak Attack
3. Swashbuckler-2 (Flying Blade)
3. Charmed Life
3. Feat (Dodge)
4. Rogue-2 (Knife Master/ Scout)
4. Evasion
4. Rogue Talent (Fast Getaway)
5. Swashbuckler-3 (Flying Blade)
5. Deeds
5. Nimble
5. Feat (Mobility)
6. Rogue-3 (Knife Master/ Scout)
6. Blade Sense
6. 2D8 Sneak Attack
7. Swashbuckler-4 (Flying Blade)
7. Bonus Feat (Spring Attack)
7. Feat (Shot on the Run)
8. Rogue-4 (Knife Master/ Scout)
8. Scout's Charge
8. Rogue Talent (Slow Reactions)
9. Swashbuckler-5 (Flying Blade)
9. Swashbuckler Training
9. Feat (Parting Shot)

How did you play your 5e Rogue?


You have ALL the skills, use them!

Skill monkey Rogue, with D8 Sneak Attack, all the Flying Blade Swashbuckler you want.

Use hit and run tactics to your advantage...

Everything is your cake, and you can eat it, too.

1 to 50 of 77 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / How Deadly Can You Make A Dagger? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.