1, the movement speed increase makes a lot of other movement speed increases marginal or irrelevant.
I won't argue that the speed increase isn't sweet, but are you of the same opinion of spells such as Fly and Expeditious Retreat (lv 1), which both gives equivalent speed increases?
Because inflated movement speeds will happen, and Haste is just another example of it.
2, it (and Slow) massively impact different characters in different ways.
3, it makes full attacks even stronger which warps the game. Archery and pounce become much better and they're already insanely good. Combat maneuvers which are a standard action becomes much worse because you lose more. Things like Feint become worse. Anything but "full attack" gets significantly relatively worse -- and whoever manages to full attack first has even more of an advantage than they already do.
This sounds more like grievances with the Pathfinder system, not the spell itself. Martial builds that doesn't depend on full-attacks in higher levels are rarely competitive.
Also, it's really not recommended to make move-action feints when you have more than one attack. That's why Two-Weapon Feint and Feinting Flurry exists. If anything, Haste makes those options better.
*******
TL;DR: I altered Haste from 1 AB/1 AC/1 reflex/doubled movement (max 30)/1 extra attack on a full attack to 2 AB/2 AC/2 reflex/10 feet of movement. Most of my players seem to like it or at least be okay with it, a few miss the idea of extra attacks. Trying to find a way to make us all happy(ish).
Have you had a couple sessions with this altered version in play yet? Or is this idea still on the writing board, so to say?
Because my prediction is that your players will sell their Boots of Speed and the casters won't bother buffing the party with Haste.
I'd honestly still buy Boots of Speed even if they only gave an extra attack, that's how good of a martial buff it is. The altered version you're proposing could probably be fine if it had a minutes/level duration, or was a 2nd-level spell. But it won't fill the martial power gap you've just created.
If it's mostly that you don't like the emphasis on full-attacks and the movement overshadowing other increases, then maybe you could zero in on that.
Increases the creature's movement by 50% of the character's own speed. Min 10, Max 30.
May make one extra attack as a free action per turn, albeit at a -5 penalty. This extra attack can not be modified by feats or effects such as vital strike, which specifies the standard action attack.
***
Is there a reason that the extra attack from Haste is concerning you? After all, a PC does need a full-attack action (hardly a given) to exploit it, and odds are only mediocre that the additional attack will be the crucial one that drops the monster. Most often it either survives til next round anyway, or it drops before the additional attack is realized. (All damage is useful, of course, but timing is paramount.)
Is there a reason that the extra attack from Haste is concerning you? After all, a PC does need a full-attack action (hardly a given) to exploit it, and odds are only mediocre that the additional attack will be the crucial one that drops the monster. Most often it either survives til next round anyway, or it drops before the additional attack is realized. (All damage is useful, of course, but timing is paramount.)
This may be your experience, but I wonder how you can posit this. as the attack is at your highest BAB, its actually one of the most likely to hit, which puts it at one of the more likely to kill your opponent, assuming all attacks are equally likely to, in a void, because we can't know the amount of HP each individual monster has when starting or finishing our attack. Moreover, each extra attack you can make during one round brings your full attack more likely to drop a monster, leaving you less likely to suffer a full attack back, so the hasted attack is HUGELY beneficial, and the timing of it will help far more than say, your iterative attacks, because they're less likely to kill your opponent in the first place, being less likely to hit.
* If your situation requires you to take a move action to close distance (or you're not an archer or can't shoot or whatever), then it makes little difference to have an extra attack if you're capable of unloading just one anyway.
* If the monster has a hundred hitpoints left, and your last attack dishes out forty, then it's still alive for it's turn. Sure: it'll be nuked into oblivion next round by the party, but it's still going to get its turn even if you crit.
* OTOH, if you can dish out fifty per attack, and you go from two to three attacks with Haste, but your opponent is currently wheezing with 3hp left, your extra isn't going to make a difference that round the 399 out of 400 times you don't roll two 1s in a row..
-- Haste is great, but even great things can be overrated (e.g, my polearm barbarians will usually see more AoOs generated by a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person than they will off Haste from 12000gp Boots of Speed).
Haste is great, but even great things can be overrated (e.g, my polearm barbarians will usually see more AoOs generated by a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person than they will off Haste from 12000gp Boots of Speed
Seeing as haste won't generate any aoos at all, this seems like an odd thing to say. You sure you know how the game works?
OTOH, if you can dish out fifty per attack, and you go from two to three attacks with Haste, but your opponent is currently wheezing with 3hp left, your extra isn't going to make a difference that round the 399 out of 400 times you don't roll two 1s in a row..
this is utter ridiculousness. For the majority of characters, at level 5, when you first get access to haste, your damage potential doubles with haste, far more than any other buff. Again, your personal experience may be different, but 399/400 or whatever numbers you're pulling straight from your rear are completely untrue, with no actual math to back them up. Bonus to hit, plus potential of double the number of attacks, equals more potential damage than almost any other buff in the game, for the majority of builds. There are exceptions, of course, like the octopus mentioned above, but if you're going to argue this, at least show some proof
* If the monster hasa hundredthirty hitpoints left, and your last attack dishes out forty, then it'sstill alivedead.
* OTOH, if you can dish out fifty per attack, and you go from two to three attacks with Haste, but your opponent is currently wheezing with 3hp left, your extra isn't going to make a difference that round the 399 out of 400 times you don't roll two 1s in a row..
This is such a weird angle to argue from, isn't it?
"Don't bother getting more attacks or damage, because if the opponent only has 3 hp left your extra damage won't matter."***
-- Haste is great, but even great things can be overrated (e.g, my polearm barbarians will usually see more AoOs generated by a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person than they will off Haste from 12000gp Boots of Speed).
Three standard lv 6, 11 and 16 barbarians, with an attack bonus lower than the AC of the opponent they're facing, are getting Hasted. If we assume the average damage of their first attack is B, then we'll get the following dmg increases.
The lv 6 barbarian's damage was 1.75 B, with Haste it's 2.9 B. ~65% increase.
The lv 11 barbarian's damage was 2.25 B, with Haste it's 3.45 B. ~53% increase.
The lv 16 barbarian's damage was 2.5 B, with Haste it's 3.75 B. ~50% increase.
Haste is great, but even great things can be overrated (e.g, my polearm barbarians will usually see more AoOs generated by a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person than they will off Haste from 12000gp Boots of SpeedSeeing as haste won't generate any aoos at all, this seems like an odd thing to say. You sure you know how the game works?
<scowl> I've been sitting here wondering if you would belabor that point after my hour's worth of edit time passed before I'd noticed the incongruity.
Suffice to say: I think you know what I was getting at there. I.e,. I'm saying that the ability to generate massive piles of cheap AoOs is invariably worth a lot more than receiving a single extra attack action usable only during full-attacks, and at some considerable expense if one is not personally a spellcaster. To this day, the inordinate fondness for 5' weapons among most players never ceases to amaze me. --Carrying a polearm is like getting Haste for free at 1st level.
OTOH, if you can dish out fifty per attack, and you go from two to three attacks with Haste, but your opponent is currently wheezing with 3hp left, your extra isn't going to make a difference that round the 399 out of 400 times you don't roll two 1s in a row..this is utter ridiculousness. For the majority of characters, at level 5.....
My arguments are in-general; you're responding with a carefully-positioned goalpost.
"The majority of characters" are not at 5th level. --As soon as 6th level arrives, the seeming 100% increase in ideally-realized damage quickly drops off to only a 50% gain for BAB6s martials, Ki-chipping monks and ninjas, 33% for BAB6 TWFs and the cavalier horse, 20% for ITWFs and Manyshot archers, and possibly even less than that for AoO-fishers such as Swashbucklers and reach-builds who strive for off-turn damage by locking the enemy down and forcing it to eat pain via Fortuitous high-threat weaponry. At higher levels, encounters are often deliberately designed to make full-attacks achievable only after some effort if at all, or, when granted, amount to "wasting the PCs' time" delaying tactics, such as when NPCs spam Summons while making their escape. Yay, I got Haste, and I'm using it to bat away worthless chaff.
when you first get access to haste, your damage potential doubles with haste, far more than any other buff.Nobody's arguing that Haste isn't a phenomenal spell when doled out to BAB5 martials facing zerg-rushes.
Again, your personal experience may be different, but 399/400 or whatever numbers you're pulling straight from your rear are completely untrue, with no actual math to back them up.
Math: If you will deliver enough damage to drop an opponent with any hit (this being a frequent mano-a-wobbly situation in later rounds) and can nail them on a "2" (that also being relatively common for high-powered martials), then they only miss 5% of the time when rolling at their highest bonus. Given two attacks, they drop their opponent 399 out of 400 times.
Three standard lv 6, 11 and 16 barbarians, with an attack bonus lower than the AC of the opponent they're facing, are getting Hasted. If we assume the average damage of their first attack is B, then...
My "assumption" is that most barbarians are going to have an attack bonus (+average d20 roll) considerably in excess of CR-appropriate-for-the-party opponent AC.
Haste *is* really good for PCs who are actually bad at combat.
Three standard lv 6, 11 and 16 barbarians, with an attack bonus lower than the AC of the opponent they're facing, are getting Hasted. If we assume the average damage of their first attack is B, then...My "assumption" is that most barbarians are going to have an attack bonus (+average d20 roll) considerably in excess of CR-appropriate-for-the-party opponent AC.
Haste *is* really good for PCs who are actually bad at combat.
Even if we assume that all iteratives only fails at natural 1's, Haste would still mean 25% increased damage if you normally have four attacks.
Sure, we're all aware that "one extra attack" becomes less valuable as you level up. But it certainly doesn't hurt to get one extra attack in addition to +1 AC/Attack and increased movement speed.
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Math: If you will deliver enough damage to drop an opponent with any hit (this being a frequent mano-a-wobbly situation in later rounds) and can nail them on a "2" (that also being relatively common for high-powered martials), then they only miss 5% of the time when rolling at their highest bonus. Given two attacks, they drop their opponent 399 out of 400 times.
Yup, and if they're Hasted they can kill that wobbly foe in one hit and focus the other two on a more lively enemy within reach. Or they could have killed the foe outright the turn before.
The only time Haste isn't "the greatest" is when you've already got multiple attacks, and low average damage per hit.
A lv 6 multishot/rapid shot archer with an average of 10 dmg per successful hit would benefit more from Inspire Courage, for example.
But for everyone else, I'd recommend Haste.
Other posters have already covered why haste is an incredibly powerful spell as currently written. Assuming 3 martial allies, you're trading 1 standard action to provide 75-150% of their average damage per round that they full attack. That's really really significant. Add +1 AC and the extra movement speed an you have a must-have spell.
Here's one alternative to curb in the power of the spell while retaining the 'bonus attack' flavor:
+30 base movement (rather than double)
No attack roll or AC bonus
+1 bonus attack during full attack, made at your full BAB-5 rather than full BAB. (This chops about 1/3 off the effective damage output, though the effect varies by level)
Alternatively, the following version allows the recipients to full-attack far more often, but doesn't multiplicatively improve their damage when full attacking and standing still:
Haste grants an extra move action that can only be spent to move.
If you move and full attack, you take a -1 penalty on all attacks that round.
(No other benefits)
Beyond mid-level, my martials while take some sort of communal defense buff over Haste every time. Many things you don't even want to full-attack, because said situation implies that they can full-attack you, too, and the bell-curve of inbound damage possibilities widens to extremes and you lose ability to manage attrition. Combats end one of two ways: TPK, or the party survives the encounter. What's important is that you survive the encounter, and being able to manage your attrition is how you plan that. If really vicious multi-attack monsters don't lay them all on one PC at a time in your games, it's because your GM is "nice" and has decided not to flat-out murder you by running the monsters as ruthlessly as they're written being capable of or implied (through decent intelligence, for example).
Even archers have to be leery of situations seemingly tailor-made for them: Unobstructed ranged-fire generally means that the target also has a clear charge-lane to pounce and rip them into itty-bitty pieces. (True Tales from the PFS Crypt: I've had my archers willingly forgo a full-attack to instead just Manyshot and then move out of charge-lanes.)
Even archers have to be leery of situations seemingly tailor-made for them: Unobstructed ranged-fire generally means that the target also has a clear charge-lane to pounce and rip them into itty-bitty pieces. (True Tales from the PFS Crypt: I've had my archers willingly forgo a full-attack to instead just Manyshot and then move out of charge-lanes.)
Full-Attack Manyshot, interrupt it after the first attack, and then move action away. I'll have to remember that.
Beyond mid-level, my martials while take some sort of communal defense buff over Haste every time. Many things you don't even want to full-attack, because said situation implies that they can full-attack you, too,
Sure, but until now we've talked about how strong of a damage bonus Haste is. It's important to keep a balanced diet of defense/offense, but at the moment we're discussing offense.
We're kind of assuming full-attacks since the average high-level martial's damage isn't even worth considering if they're stuck with a standard action attack. If they've failed to secure full-attacks, it's a fault of their builds.
If they don't come out on top in a trade of full-attacks between themselves and a CR-equivalent monster, it's a fault of their builds.
We're kind of assuming full-attacksYou really shouldn't do that, because it is precisely equivalent to "I assume my GM is a creampuff." --Many of them are, but taking it for granted will eventually kill your character.
since the average high-level martial's damage isn't even worth considering if they're stuck with a standard action attack.I build high level martials to deliver an ass-ton of pain in a single attack, and all the better if that single-attack is really supercharged versus what the opponent can do with their single attack.
If they've failed to secure full-attacks, it's a fault of their builds.Or the GM is on the ball (see above). --I consider inability to deliver decent damage on a standard-action to be a build-fault in dedicated martials (especially high-level ones).
If they don't come out on top in a trade of full-attacks between themselves and a CR-equivalent monster, it's a fault of their builds.
Parties don't need Haste to prevail over CR-equivalent opponents their cooperative action-economy dooms the opposition in any situation that's not party-on-party. But what can and often does happen is that, by trying to race things with full-attack slug-fests, is that one particular PC (and Murphy's Law says it's you this time) eats two crits in one round and instant face-plants with big, stupid Xs where his eyes used to be because, in his excitement, he forgot about attrition-management.
since the average high-level martial's damage isn't even worth considering if they're stuck with a standard action attack.I build high level martials to deliver an ass-ton of pain in a single attack, and all the better if that single-attack is really supercharged versus what the opponent can do with their single attack.
If they've failed to secure full-attacks, it's a fault of their builds.Or the GM is on the ball (see above). --I consider inability to deliver decent damage on a standard-action to be a build-fault in dedicated martials (especially high-level ones).
I have no doubt you can make strong standard-action builds, but the average high-level martial takes a significant hit in damage if they're not allowed full-attacks. Even your build would deal around 80 dmg with a standard, and 250 with a Hasted full-attack (glanced through it, assumed no crits and one TWF attack).
So even though you have a stronger standard action than normal, it's still just one third the damage your full-attack would have dealt.
If they don't come out on top in a trade of full-attacks between themselves and a CR-equivalent monster, it's a fault of their builds.Parties don't need Haste to prevail over CR-equivalent opponents their cooperative action-economy dooms the opposition in any situation that's not party-on-party. But what can and often does happen is that, by trying to race things with full-attack slug-fests, is that one particular PC (and Murphy's Law says it's you this time) eats two crits in one round and instant face-plants with big, stupid Xs where his eyes used to be because, in his excitement, he forgot about attrition-management.
Yup, attrition-management.
Like, for instance, dealing more damage than what you take.
Maybe we could use some kind of spell buff to deal more damage so that our attrition-management gets better?
Haste is great. It may be dependent on full-attacks, but so are most martials already.
We're kind of assuming full-attacksYou really shouldn't do that, because it is precisely equivalent to "I assume my GM is a creampuff." --Many of them are, but taking it for granted will eventually kill your character.since the average high-level martial's damage isn't even worth considering if they're stuck with a standard action attack.I build high level martials to deliver an ass-ton of pain in a single attack, and all the better if that single-attack is really supercharged versus what the opponent can do with their single attack.
First off, for level 17, that dmg is very low so if that is how you built your character, it must be you who has the creampuff GM who is taking it easy on you. You should be doing over 100 if you want to compete with other classes. Second, I am not sure what this fight is about. Are you saying that Haste is never worth anyone's time? Would it not be worth it in a group where the caster can give it to 2 or 3 martials?
Even your build would deal around 80 dmg with a standard, and 250 with a Hasted full-attack (glanced through it, assumed no crits and one TWF attack). So even though you have a stronger standard action than normal, it's still just one third the damage your full-attack would have dealt.Which is a much better ratio than that of most multi-attack monsters denied their full-attack. Result? Favorable attrition parameters to the PC built toward tit-for-tat combat rather than slugfests.
First off, for level 17, that dmg is very low so if that is how you built your character, it must be you who has the creampuff GM who is taking it easy on you. You should be doing over 100 if you want to compete with other classes. Second, I am not sure what this fight is about.Dishing out 80 on a standard with two listed pieces of equipment (one of which is the weapon) is pretty damned good, not to mention having a neigh-automatic one-shot 130pt max/crit on a standard-action -- that is a very not bad at all goodie in any martial's bag of tricks. The build posed was for a specific request, and certainly has room for further optimization (e.g., four levels of Weapon Master fighter, for instance, not to mention all the other gear WBL17 would entail).
Are you saying that Haste is never worth anyone's time?
You're posing an extremist/red-herring fallacy as my argument; no one's claiming that, or alluding such.
What I was doing was taking the side of Haste not being overpowered enough to "rethink"/"revamp" or otherwise nerf. --After all, it only works with damage anyway, when high-level combats are frequently decided by save-or-suck (e.g., Dazing Spell, etc), with damage-delivery then amounting to janitorial mop-up.
Haste is a 3rd-level spell, and Boots of Speed only 12,000gp, for a reason: it's far from the most powerful thing out there, arguably even among the set-of-all-things a 5th-level wizard could cast in a martial-heavy party.
Are you saying that Haste is never worth anyone's time?You're posing an extremist/red-herring fallacy as my argument; no one's claiming that, or alluding such.
What I was doing was taking the side of Haste not being overpowered enough to "rethink"/"revamp" or otherwise nerf. --After all, it only works with damage anyway, when high-level combats are frequently decided by save-or-suck (e.g., Dazing Spell, etc), with damage-delivery then amounting to janitorial mop-up.
Haste is a 3rd-level spell, and Boots of Speed only 12,000gp, for a reason: it's far from the most powerful thing out there, arguably even among the set-of-all-things a 5th-level wizard could cast in a martial-heavy party.
I agree that haste is very good but I also agree that does not need to be changed. May I ask what other spells that are level 3 you could use for your full Martial Party?
Personally, I find haste to be kinda broken. Don't get me wrong. If I'm playing a martial character, then I won't complain if an ally casts it. But at the same time, I abstain from using it as a caster.
I just don't like the idea of options that are so powerful that there is almost no reason not to use it. To me, haste is one of those options.
Perhaps you could consider giving them the extra attack, but no AC penalty or reduced movement speed. Have a chat with them and explain that you feel it is slightly altering game balance & the element of challenge, and try to come up with a healthy compromise.
Have you had a couple sessions with this altered version in play yet? Or is this idea still on the writing board, so to say?We've been using it for about half a year.
Because my prediction is that your players will sell their Boots of Speed and the casters won't bother buffing the party with Haste.They still cast Haste religiously and have very much noticed when it wasn't active.
Also, a few higher level NPCs I've built definitely still get Boots of Speed as it's by far the cost efficient option to gain AB/AC in crunch situations (for example, going from +3 to +4 armor is 7k alone compared to Boots of Speed 12 for 2 AC *AND* 2 AB).
Huh, that's unexpected. But now that I look closer there's just not that many group buffs available to the standard caster.
Your revamped version is undoubtedly weaker than the original spell, but if that was your intention then go ahead.
I agree that haste is very good but I also agree that does not need to be changed. May I ask what other spells that are level 3 you could use for your full Martial Party?Clay Skin, various Communal, Circle, and Mass spells, Daylight, Campfire Wall, Flame Arrow, Paragon Surge (on you, if you're a half-elf caster who does not intend to wait another two levels to get that metamagic feat), Marionette Possession (when your "martial" is the giant you've previously Charmed), Invisibly Sphere (because you shouldn't be murdering the town guard anyway), Ray of Exhaustion (on the enemy's barbarian, who'll be nerfed even if he saves), Slow (again on the enemy, which even despite its save can often be better than Haste because it results in much more favorable attrition ratios), Earth Tremor (among other battlefield control spells at 3rd, such as Spiked Pit, Wall of Nausea, and Greater Thunderstomp).
Just throwing this out there. As good as Haste is, Slow is every bit as good. But Slow allows a saving throw and it falls behind as you gain levels. Haste being a buff gives it the edge over slow.
That's what Heighten Spell is for; Slow, assuming you heighten it to keep beating enemy saves, gets better and better at high level because the enemies to be affected are more powerful and lose a greater percentage of their combat capacity while Haste is providing the PCs an increasingly lower percentage gain in combat capacity.
Compare: party versus three in-bound flying pounce monsters with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake, rend, and a rider-effect (poisonous bite) or a breath-weapon; let's imagine that four PCs will be performing melee attacks in such a situation, and each normally has three attacks in a full-attack.
Haste: the party's AC goes up by 1, and there will be four more melee attacks once things resolve to close-melee, with those affected having 33% more attacks. Does nothing to prevent an enemy charge or assist the party's fighters with ready actions.
Slow: any affected enemy loses 80%-to-100% of its combat capability. Any that fail are staggered, and can only move or take a standard-action. With fliers, any enemy that fails is right out of the fight until it lands. It can't even fly (move) and use its breath-weapon in the same round. Even if it could move in for a single attack (note: it can't), it's losing as many attacks overall in a single unit as the party would have gained in total.
I agree that haste is very good but I also agree that does not need to be changed. May I ask what other spells that are level 3 you could use for your full Martial Party?Clay Skin, various Communal, Circle, and Mass spells, Daylight, Campfire Wall, Flame Arrow, Paragon Surge (on you, if you're a half-elf caster who does not intend to wait another two levels to get that metamagic feat), Marionette Possession (when your "martial" is the giant you've previously Charmed), Invisibly Sphere (because you shouldn't be murdering the town guard anyway), Ray of Exhaustion (on the enemy's barbarian, who'll be nerfed even if he saves), Slow (again on the enemy, which even despite its save can often be better than Haste because it results in much more favorable attrition ratios), Earth Tremor (among other battlefield control spells at 3rd, such as Spiked Pit, Wall of Nausea, and Greater Thunderstomp).
Let's look at those options then.
Clay Skin targets one person. It is a long term buff but can only last throw 50 dmg which is going to be 5 attacks. Its OK. Not getting hit is better which means displacement would be a better 3rd level buff for this kind of thing.
Daylight. Very limited use.
Campfire wall is not really a combat spell. It would not replace any of the other spells you talked about.
Flame arrow is nice but its only 3.5 added damage of the most common resist in the game. Most likely would never take this spell if I have limited choices.
Again, a bit on the limited side since you need to be a half-elf. Great buff if you are.
Marionette Possession is something I would agree is very strong and if used right can change a lot of fights in your favour. Problem is that you do need to know the guy's name so if you fail to charm him then you will have a harder find getting that. I like the spell, I know many GMs that hate it for the reason you explained.
Invisibly Sphere is very strong.
Ray of Exhaustion is a bit of a mixed bag for me. Great starter since it can stop those guys from charging you but if you fail to get the exhust then its not as great after that.
Earth Tremor seems good. Seening it for the first time. I would agree that battlefield control spells are all on par or better then Haste. Anything that goes through SR is even better or ones that force them to change how they move.
Just throwing this out there. As good as Haste is, Slow is every bit as good. But Slow allows a saving throw and it falls behind as you gain levels. Haste being a buff gives it the edge over slow.
That's what Heighten Spell is for; Slow, assuming you heighten it to keep beating enemy saves, gets better and better at high level because the enemies to be affected are more powerful and lose a greater percentage of their combat capacity while Haste is providing the PCs an increasingly lower percentage gain in combat capacity.
Compare: party versus three in-bound flying pounce monsters with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake, rend, and a rider-effect (poisonous bite) or a breath-weapon; let's imagine that four PCs will be performing melee attacks in such a situation, and each normally has three attacks in a full-attack.
Haste: the party's AC goes up by 1, and there will be four more melee attacks once things resolve to close-melee, with those affected having 33% more attacks. Does nothing to prevent an enemy charge or assist the party's fighters with ready actions.
Slow: any affected...
Problem with slow in the framework of this thread is that he has also nerfed slow to -2 AB, -2 AC, -2 reflex, and half movement. No longer staggers. So take that as you will.
How would it work out if instead of the speed increase and additional attack haste granted an extra move action that is required to be used for movement? Full attacks are no stronger, but more likely.
Versus persistent health drains (swarms, running a kobold archery gauntlet, etc), it will keep that vulnerable PC alive. In other words, good attrition management.Let's look at those options then.
Clay Skin targets one person. It is a long term buff but can only last throw 50 dmg which is going to be 5 attacks. Its OK. Not getting hit is better which means displacement would be a better 3rd level buff for this kind of thing.
Daylight. Very limited use.When you need it, you need it. Haste is luxury, but you seldom need it (if you do, it's because your tactics were committed with perhaps less than recommended acumen).
Campfire wall is not really a combat spell. It would not replace any of the other spells you talked about.It's your "leftover spell at the end of the day" that actually doesn't go to waste. Cast it, and your party is now largely safe from the prospect of a nocturnal ambush dropping one or more PCs before they can get a handle on things. (Even invisible creatures are going to have a tough time.)
Flame arrow is nice but its only 3.5 added damage of the most common resist in the game. Most likely would never take this spell if I have limited choices.
Few things resist fire at 5th-8th, when Haste is doling out its largest percentage gain in damage at a time when damage-per-attack is still relatively modest, particularly in the case of archery, where the Manyshot archer or shuriken ninja might rather have +4d6 than a fifth attack. It also helps you in the surprise round, when you don't receive a full-attack anyway.
This thread reminds me of that "bards only" 3.5 group. Not all of them were archers, but all had a bow and sooner or later Rapid Shot.
Haste was the only spell ALL of them knew. Figures.
Great times. I would have never expected them to survive for long. We did, and er did it with style.
Edit: lvl17 for 80 points with one hit? I think there was a singleclass barbarian build with much more.
What I was doing was taking the side of Haste not being overpowered enough to "rethink"/"revamp" or otherwise nerf. --After all, it only works with damage anyway, when high-level combats are frequently decided by save-or-suck (e.g., Dazing Spell, etc), with damage-delivery then amounting to janitorial mop-up.I want to be very clear about something. I cannot overstate how strongly I fundamentally disagree with this idea. I vehemently oppose the notion that...
- [list of core class features that dish out damage]
...are all unimportant because they're "only damage."
Attend to my context (now bolded).
If all I have in my bag of tricks is the ability to drop 5,340 points of damage, and my opponent is an arcane caster with 9th-level spells -- he is a god and I am a flea.
@Balkoth
Okay, So I've gotten a little more background from your new post.
In a vacuum, nerfing Haste is just kicking martials in the shin. I didn't realize you've implemented/restricted much more than just Haste, so our arguments may not be totally applicable to your table.
...how many other forms of inflated movement are there?
Most polymorph spells and class features that emulates them. That's the big fish, I'd wager.
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That said, I'm not trying to change martial builds to not depend on full attacks -- I'd just like the difference between full attacks and non-full attacks to be smaller.
You can take away options that improve full-attacks (like haste), but that won't stop the standard action attack from being bad. Are you certain you want to shorten the difference from the angle of full-attacks, and not the standard attack?
Because that's just kicking martials in the shin.
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So...to me that sounds like we're having to bring in extra books and pay feat taxes in order to fix a flaw in the system.
Yup. Move-action feinting is just not competitive at higher levels.
To feint as part of a full-attack, around three feats are needed. And if you meet something mindless your whole shtick is worthless.*
Point is, that'd be much stronger than Heroism at minutes per level because it's an AoE.
Yeah, I'll have to agree. I didn't realize the lack of good arcane buffs before this thread.
The 'problem' is that removing good buffs from the spell list just creates an ever bigger incentive for the casters to ignore buffing the martials and to end the fight with one spell.But you mentioned you've already slapped casters with the nerf bat, so it might not be a problem at your table.
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Also, when I've made NPCs that are level 10+ martials I've still found the Boots of Speed to still be a mandatory buy. Going from +3 to +4 armor is 7k for 1 AC...Boots of Speed are 2 AB/2 AC for 12k (plus some reflex and movement).
That's a problem with comparing NPC gear to PCs. Your NPCs are almost always going to Nova in every fight.
The NPC won't care that they only have +2 AC/Attack for ten rounds per day, because that's more rounds than they will experience combat in their (short) lives. I'd wager that three rounds of combat is as much as they'll live.For example, instead of buying magical weapons for your NPC martials, you could just make them take Quickdraw and buy a bunch of Scabbard of Vigors.
A level nine martial PC is expected to have a +2 weapon. Your Scabbard-NPCs could afford to 'effectively' get a +3 weapons at level five.
Or, more noticeable, imagine every low-lv NPC bought and used scrolls of Stoneskin before every fight.
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I want to be very clear about something. I cannot overstate how strongly I fundamentally disagree with this idea.
I think the reason you're not seeing eye to eye on this subject could be the difference in expected optimization.
As you can see from the build Slim Jim posted, he's accustomed to creating highly optimized characters with high attack bonuses.For a highly optimized character, +2 to attack might mean an average damage increase of less than 10%. For a character than only hits on 19-20, that's 100% increased damage.
Personally I think haste is fine, strong yes, but it doesn't insta win any encounters (usually...)
But persinally, if you want to limit it, make it a single Target touch spell, or split the duration amount creatures touched, same effect, but it will take more effort to use
Don't nerf Haste. Nerfing Haste would affect martials much more than it would affect casters, and casters already dominate the late game something fierce. Haste is a really powerful low/mid level spell but has ALL KINDS of mid/late-game use that keep martials "somewhat closer" to the full casters in the late game. The +30ft movement speed is really important for martials to line up those Full Attack actions.
Since when has d20 ever promised/claimed that martials will have the same "power level" (however that is defined) as casters? ...I don't recall Paizo ever saying so, and certainly not WotC before it.If all I have in my bag of tricks is the ability to drop 5,340 points of damage, and my opponent is an arcane caster with 9th-level spells -- he is a god and I am a flea.Vehemently disagree with that notion. If you're both level 20 characters you should be roughly on the same power level -- that's what the game promises and how it claims to be balanced.
"...Beyond the veil of the mundane hide the secrets of absolute power. The works of beings beyond mortals, the legends of realms where gods and spirits tread, the lore of creations both wondrous and terrible—such mysteries call to those with the ambition and the intellect to rise above the common folk to grasp true might. Such is the path of the wizard...."
Vehemently disagree with that notion. If you're both level 20 characters you should be roughly on the same power level -- that's what the game promises and how it claims to be balanced.
We're this close to having another Caster/Martial disparity thread. I can basically smell it.
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How are we defining competitive?
While it is possible to make a strong build that uses move-action feints, the large majority of all who depend on such a tactic will fall behind those who used other tactics.
That's how I would define competitive in this scenario.Another example would be the Vital Strike feat chain, or maneuver builds.
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Yeah, that assumes casters CAN end the fight with one spell which is itself a problem.
It's part of what makes casters so fun to play.
Yes, sure. You can give the martials 10 percentage point greater chance of hitting stuff.
Or you could summon monsters behind the enemy defense lines, checkmating their casters/archers in one go.
Or you could use 1st-level spells such as Grease to prevent melee foes from advancing.
Or you could throw up a Wind Wall, shutting down all ranged martials.
And that's what I expect a fully unoptimized caster to be capable of doing. Like, a wizard with a starting int score of 12.
Their actions are 'wasted' on giving the martials +2 to attack.
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Optimization to me means tweaking things to try to eek out another 3-5% of power...not putting the whole Pathfinder system in a headlock and making it cry uncle.
It's "only damage" because you're expected to be doing a whole lot of damage even without spells as a martial. If you depend on spell buffs to deal damage, then your build isn't what I would call 'optimized'. (speaking of mundane martials now, not Warpriest and the like)
So if you're in a normal campaign where the fighter is overjoyed to gain +2 to attack, then I'd confidently say that their build isn't very 'optimized'.
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So, the problem I see with the changes is this:
If your players find the +2 to attack exciting, then their builds are probably on the lower end of optimization. Which means you really shouldn't do away with one of the stronger martial buffs.
There's a very small percentage of martial characters that would benefit more from +1 Attack/AC than an extra attack. But if this is supposed to be a nerf then I'm okay with that. It's your table.
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Back to the question at hand, what kind of benefit are you okay with Haste giving your players?
You removed the extra attack, but was that because you don't like full-attacks or because you don't want a spell to give extra attacks?
Do you want Haste to give extra actions, or improve certain actions?
Since when has d20 ever promised/claimed that martials will have the same "power level" (however that is defined) as casters? ...I don't recall Paizo ever saying so, and certainly not WotC before it.The fact that every class at every level is assigned the same CR value and is worth the same amount of XP.
CR is wrecked, and arguably more so in Pathfinder than 3rd edition. Blood Orcs, for example, are 1/3CR (...go look at those guys; you do not want to face them as a 1st-level party). Meanwhile, many higher-CR non-caster monsters with lousy Reflex saves are dead-meat-walking due to Paizo brokenness such as Dazing Spell. And armor-ignoring firearms were one of their worst ideas, putting the equivalent of Brilliant Energy (+4 enhancement cost) effect on a ranged weapon given to a 1st-level character -- which thoroughly trashed any and all monsters originally considered tougher due to sky-high natural armor bonuses. (The archer's union complained vociferously, however, and kept firearm range increments inferior to bows, even rifles, which makes utterly no sense whatsoever...)
Oh Pathfinder is most certainly about as well balanced as a drunken rhinoceros dancing over a floor of greased ball bearings but intent is intent.
CR wasn't meant to be an Animal Farm type "All monsters of this ranking are equal, but some are more equal than others" even if that's how it invariably pans out.
Mon chéri, your goalpost looks like this.
Most of my groups would spam haste as often as possible, especially in melee-heavy groups. To curb the behavior without nerfing the spell entirely, I changed the number of targets from one creature/level to one creature/3 levels. Everyone liked the change as the spell was still useful at any level, but no so good as to be "automatic".Some choice analysis from Brewer's Guide to the Blockbuster Wizard:
Instant Gratification: Your Friend
Or, in other words: Haste Versus Fireball
Haste deals more damage over time. You know what also deals damage over time? Your enemies!
Let’s say you’re part of a 10th level party, and you run across three CR=8 monsters – not too dangerous, but it’s still a CR=11 encounter. Those guys will have about 100 hit points and have reflex saves good enough that they’ll succeed 1/3 of the time.
A plain vanilla Fireball will deal 40 (10d6+5) damage to each of them. A 10th level wizard is capable of a lot more than a vanilla fireball, but we can use it as our baseline.
Between one or two fireballs, and the rest of the party doing their thing, do you think the encounter is going to last more than 2 rounds? Nope, those twerps are going down, and going down fast. Casting Haste probably won’t do any extra damage that first round (you’d have to be going before your party mate, who in turn is somehow already in position to do a full attack.) In the second round, it might give everyone an additional swing… but are those few extra swings really going to clock in over a hundred damage in one round? And that’s just with the baseline fireball – the wizard could easily be throwing Intensified Empowered Fireballs at the enemy for 68 (12d6 + 50% + 5) with the right feats and traits.
Oh, sure, if the battle dragged out for 10 rounds, that Haste might end up wracking up more damage. And, who knows, maybe that cardigan-wearing God Wizard might have time for boring protracted battles – but we’ve got more things waiting to be blown to smithereens.
And as a side perk? Not only did you have more fun than the Wizard of Fogs, but you did better at protecting the party because you've killed the danger. And thanks to Admixture, the whole issue of Immunities and Resistances is moot: you just turn the Fireball into an Acidball, or Frostball, or whatever element they're susceptible to.
True story: my first "blockbuster" build (this was some years ago; I'm sure they're more powerful now than in this older guide) was a de-tuned concept who was actually a conjurer rather than an admixture-evoker.
First combat after leveling to 7th, I rolled first in initiative, and popped out his shiny new toy. I rolled high, they low, and wiped out the entire enemy party with a single spell. (Needless to say, the GM mades some adjustments to our challenges going forward.)
If your players find the +2 to attack exciting, then their builds are probably on the lower end of optimization. Which means you really shouldn't do away with one of the stronger martial buffs.Some numbers might help here. By my calculations (and based on actual numbers in-game) +2 AB is often something like a 20-25% damage increase against classed enemies with decent AC.
Don't forget the defensive benefit of 2 AC either.
Alright, assuming an eleventh level archer paladin without Manyshot as that was banned.
For +2 to attack to give 20-25% increase of damage, then the first two attacks must have around 0.65% accuracy. Normal Haste would in this case give almost 50% increased damage.
But 0.65% accuracy isn't that bad (0.75% buffed). It's not great, but I retract my 'lower end of optimization' statement. They're probably in the middle.
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I'm fine with Haste the way it is. A few of my players would like Haste to improve action economy (like an extra attack) -- they want to do MORE with Haste. But they don't want Unchained Action Economy (or PF2 action economy).
Hm, It's quite hard to improve action economy without indirectly increasing their damage output. Maybe let them take those 10 ft from the spell in addition to their normal actions?