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This thread reminds me of that "bards only" 3.5 group. Not all of them were archers, but all had a bow and sooner or later Rapid Shot.

Haste was the only spell ALL of them knew. Figures.

Great times. I would have never expected them to survive for long. We did, and er did it with style.

Edit: lvl17 for 80 points with one hit? I think there was a singleclass barbarian build with much more.

Well, for me fear effects have always been the BBEGs low
level tactic of choice to survive against a group of PCs when usually one of them can kill him in one or two rounds.

Players aren't used anymore to losing. Either you make them get used to it again… or you change the encounters. Or play Hackmaster. Watch Gamers ("I hide behind the mount of dead bard bodies!").

If it's always one specific character who's done in because of a will save... change tactics now and then and allow him to shine too.

Houseruling that trait for a dwarf looks very logical from a Fantasy POV. Ask your DM. That fixes many of your feat problems and you can go singleclass Magus.

Edit: One Level Bolt Ace is not worth it with WIS 12 for emergency case touch attack(s).

I second the gun chemist or the steel hound investigator. Ranged studied combat is only short distance though... but you can do a lot of other fun things and youll be a strong switch hitter.

One level dip Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) will get you ranged touch attacks with a heavy Xbow... you wont have a lot of grit though if you go for high INT. On the other hand, a Xbow has better crit Chance than firearms.

I've used some Bolt Ace alchemists with explosive missile.... my players hate them!

WATERFRONT! And I miss the brothel in Ultimate Campaign...

Kingmaker story: ditch the BBEG and make up your own.

Fights in kingmaker: often too lame and sometimes real hard for our group. Never fought three trolls with 3 level 4 characters before.

Ninja does not get evasion before picking it as advanced Trick at level 10. Vanishing trick is worth the second level though, since its a swift action.

Not that strong but versatile and with all the feats you need: zen archer4 for many good feats and ki Pool plus good saves, AC and WIS to hit and AC. Then inquisitor. Many swift action self buffs, but since you only need a decent STR then put all raises into WIS, hitting is scarcely a problem (you shoot at Full BAB -2 for level 10).

Depending on books allowed starting at level 10 a pure inquisitor may be more tempting but has to put all feats into archery. Zen archer can spend some feats for fun (drow nobility feats for spell resistance anyone? Which other archer build can do that?)

We had a Goblin Alchemist as blaster… worked very well.

If you want another melee: swashigator.
If ranged: inquisitor. Perhaps for low level survivability zen archer multiclass.

Reach weapon and Trip isnt as funny as Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip... I third the notion about dirty fighting. Its a gnome barbarian... who else would go for blows below the belt?

I dont see big problems with simply allowing the bomber discovery plus studied strike. He needs that discovery, Ranged Study, has no INT to damage and can only use most stuff within 30ft. I'd give him an effective bomb damage of an alchemist who's a level or two higher.

Compared to firearms slightly more damage subject to elemental resistance.

Not unbalanced IMHO. I'd be careful with discoveries improving bombs though.

Bard fighter? Use Skald. Plus some barbarians.

Poor Group.

baggageboy wrote:
Enlightened bloodrager, the version that starts with spells. You get to have a few utility spells right from level 1, are still a full BAB, and you have a pretty big and good spell list (all bloodrager spells, plus all druid spells of 4th level and lower) so you can use a lot of scrolls and wands. Should mix well with any melee type class. Also you can qualify for arcane strike from level 1 which can be a good use for swift actions.

Why not blooded arcane strike? No Action needed.

Andostre wrote:

Here's what I would do:

Split the party into two parties
- 13, 12, 12, 9, 9, 9 (APL=11+1 for 12)
- 12, 12, 12, 12, 10, 9 (APL=11+1 for 12)

Design two CR 15 encounters. Mash everything back together for the actual gameplay encounter.

If you don't design Encounters with many resistances and immunities, three CR15 Encounters would be more fun.

Aloha.... Did this.

Don't increase the CR of the monsters by picking stronger monsters. Take more monsters.

Otherwise you risk many PC deaths. A few big monsters are either a joke for big groups or absolutely deadly. More often absolutely deadly at these levels.

I played a whole campaign with 12 Players... sometimes more characters than 12. I simply took an encounter for their normal APL and tripled (not doubled) the monsters number. That made up for Team synergies in the group (Prayer and bard song rock or similar buffs, even Bless rock in such combinations).

Another vote for the twohanded weapon Investigator. Very strong, no problem at all to hit with studied combat, lotsa skills and many self buffs. Who needs bombs?

Your to hit will be better than a full BAB class with studied combat.

Go halfelf for curved blade proficiency and everything that's immune to precision Damage will be killed with two handed Power Attack.

Claxon wrote:

Zen Archer is only good for the opening of the build.

You're better off retraining those levels later on. They're not actually that useful to 12+ level Inquisitor.

Certainly campaign dependant, that WIS to hit is huge. IME high level inquisitors without a lot of buffing time need every constant to hit bonus they can get.

Slim Jim:
Savage Technologist is not core, otherwise it would have been nerfed for sure.

Not an item but there's an aasimar heritage trait.

Arcane trickster wizard might be another way to reach DimDoor rather fast. A Dex build with TWF and sneak attack might be what you're looking for. Feat intensive though.

Grandlounge wrote:
The problem with the build is that it still need high Dex for feat prerequies so it end up only being able slightly better in terms of point buy but being behind in divine favor/power, the judgements, bane, Heroism etc. Most of the power of the inquisitor archer, much like the warpriest, comes from stacking an insane number of bonuses. The zen archer delays that significantly. It does have the beifit of an insane will save.

Zen archer 4/Inquisitor works very fine. You gain many many feats for these 4 levels, flurry replaces Rapid Shot, Divine Favor (with Magic Knack) scales quickly to its Limit, WIS Mod to initiative, to hit and AC makes Dex very obsolete (if you don't want Snap Shot)... Ki pool extra attack stacks with haste (if there wasn't an errata lately that I missed like so many others).

Weapon Focus at level 2, Point Blank Master for free at level 3, Precise Shot without having to fullfill any prerequisites… which feats do you want with Dex?

Yeah, 4 Levels behind in spellcasting hurts but you still get Level 6 spells. Divine Power is great… getting boots of haste instead helps a lot together with Wrath and Divine Favor (if there is time to buff).

Easy saving throw fix for very high CHA swashies: Multiclass two levels Paladin.

Musket Vital Strike builds help with mobility and avoiding too many misfires that disrupt Full attack action.

Meirril wrote:


IMHO seeking is the best enchantment any ranged character can get. That enchant bypasses every miss chance in the game which saves you a ton of grief. A +1 seeking bow is a lot stronger than a +2 bow.

Right. Especially if the archer has blindsense like a Dragon disciple… without seeking, blindsense is very weak, with seeking it rocks.

Imp Eldritch Heritage for archers seems like a run of the mill feat choice. Though most archers here end up with +3 adaptive seeking bows.

Throwing cards with slashing damage.

Well, that only reduces the 6d8 to 3d8... and i forgot the -4 to hit... old man goes to take a nap now;)

Thanks Wonderstell, it isnt just my week looks like me and my books got old. :)

No gunslingers anymore that kill anything at once. Back to my stylish one shot pirates!

Don't forget to fire two shots with double barreled pistols at once. Tri-barreled? Ouch.

Means your char might fire three shots with one Standard action?

Thats what most Gunslingers do.
Level6 example:
Use one pistol for three attacks firing two shots with each attack for 6d8+three times DEXmod+ three times Deadly Aim Bonus +12 plus any weapon enhancement.

So dex 20 handelt with a +1 double barreled pistol at point blank ranged hits touch AC with +9/+9/+4 for 6d8+33 points... average 60 points with 4000gp of bis 16k for level 6. Thats not optimized yet.

You need PBS, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload and asap Precise Shot.

Even point blank shot helps here a lot, not speaking of pistoleros.

Your only problem: misfires. But that stops at higher levels.

EDIT: has the no misfires ability been errataed? Looks like, my books say pistolero has no misfires anymore at level 13... Hot changes.

Well. Simply collect many firrrearms like them ARRRH pirates. Looks cool and works. If one weapon jams, draw the next.

What about shifter? Just a few levels for swift wild shape while charging with some temp hitpoints and WIS to AC. Two levels.

Yeah, other options are stronger, but we had a level ten dire tiger shifter in play and he was a lot better than the unbuffed druid... buffing time depends in the campaign. If the group gets ambushed often, the shifter wildshaped with extra hitpoints during a Charge with possible Grab while using minor aspect for nice little buffs.

But ask your GM for the not errataed Shifters Edge!

4 levels of zen archer if you can wait for your level 6 spells a bit. You only need WIS afterwards for to hit, your saves and AC (Touch too) will be huge, good movement if you want to.

And most feats you take with slayer Talents are yours after three levels.

Extended Bane!

Edit: forgot Ki Pool goodness.

Gestalt? Gunslinger with mysterious stranger and bard.

An old time favorite: degenerate halfling cannibals with filed teeth. Warrior/rogues who tumble into Sneak attack positions.

Good old TPKs.

Instead of gun chemist, a steel hound investigator with that one level dip might be fun.

Perhaps tattoo for an additional caster level +1? Instead of crafting?

Jabbing style needs flurry or brawler as prerequ.

Why not add a tentacle cloak?

Well, it was too mythic, i guess.

doomman47 wrote:
Darklone wrote:
Easiest Move and Full Attack for everyone: quickrunners Shirt. Buy several and change them as needed. First round of combat only.
24 hour atunement on those my dude.

Sooo sad, it finally got errataed?

Dimensional dervish lists only dimdoor and shadow Step.

I'd get structural strike asap.

Easiest Move and Full Attack for everyone: quickrunners Shirt. Buy several and change them as needed. First round of combat only.

Another idea: Vigilante Brute archetype. Can be very funny.


What about buffing spells? My level 8 group would get annihilated as well without some buffs like barkskin, shield of faith for the tank and other goodies... prayer sometimes ...

So yes, AC 18 for a barbarian is slightly low but not too unusual depending on the normal combat buffs the group employs.

Wonderstell wrote:

@River of Sticks

If you have decent Charisma, then Death's Nightmare is an option.

Thanks, thats what she was looking for, sadly shes horribly feat starved.

How to get rid of negative levels: introduce the hero point system and get a +8 to the Fort Save.

maouse33 wrote:

My reply: No group of really strong guys has ever hit Mars, but groups of really smart people have.

Funny can of worms... how often did they have to try cause they mixed units?

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Anything that makes you tiny, like reduce person on a small creature, would allow you to use dexterity instead of strength for climb and swim.

Shifter 5 with the Mouse aspect can do that as medium sized race.

Thanks for the input everyone

Currently playing the kingmaker crpg and was rethinking planned characters for pnp.

What do you think, is advance deed with precise strike worth it for a magus? Or for an eldritch archer?

Or what about hex strike?

River of Sticks wrote:
Oh, I like that combo! Widened Draconic Malice would be helpful for her...

Very good advice since she multiclassed to inquisitor and will have level three spells soon!

My wife is very happy about her heresy Inquisition for boosting Intimidate. WIS+7 and Stern gaze.

River of Sticks wrote:
If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.

Theres a drow zen archer with snake style, nightmare fist and similar stuff in my group now.

She intimidates everything in the whole darkness area. Including dragons. Thats why she hates my undead.

You might take some wilding feats for the unarmed damage instead of Monk levels. More precise strike damage. Though you need shadow strike and structural strike.

BadBird wrote:

Strength Patron grants Divine Favor. Adding Divine Favor (possibly also Divine Power) to a Dragon Disciple is truly monstrous. Throw a +4 to attack and damage in there.

Interesting, that witch build. But how do you get +4 with Divine Favor? Fates Favored?

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