Resonance for Consumables! Let's call it Tolerance and have it tied to Con mod

[Azih]

Idea is in the subject!

Hardier folk can handle more magical Consumables. Higher level Consumables remain more valuable than low level ones!

[EberronHoward]

Not a bad idea. Constitution is the lowest priority "saving throw" attribute, has no skills tied to it, and it could use something.
Still, I think taking something away from Charisma for Constitution is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Strachan Fireblade]

Not a fan. Sorry.

[shroudb]

EberronHoward wrote:

Not a bad idea. Constitution is the lowest priority "saving throw" attribute, has no skills tied to it, and it could use something.

Still, I think taking something away from Charisma for Constitution is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Fort lowest priority saving throw? What?

Not a fan of the idea either since Con is already a "must raise" ability score already.

[RazarTuk]

Not a fan. The problem isn't specifically using resonance. It's the concept that a potion can not work at all.

[PossibleCabbage]

I like consumable limits and Con is a good place to put them.

[Alchemaic]

For Potions, sure. For Wands and Scrolls though?

[PossibleCabbage]

Alchemaic wrote:

For Potions, sure. For Wands and Scrolls though?

I see no problem with insisting magic takes a physical toll on you when it comes from outside of oneself.

[Greylurker]

I want to track less fiddly stat numbers not more

So far we've got

Hit Points
Spell Points
Resonance Points
Hero Points

and you want to add on another one?

[Data Lore]

As an aside, I'm gonna say that Resonance for perma-items should not be CHA based. Instead, that should be a fixed number (like 8-10 or something; more than 5e's 3 attunement slots for sure; too high a number and its meaningless though). Making permanent items based on CHA doesn't feel right to me, though.

More on topic, CON is a bad idea for consumables. People will boost that anyways now thanks to how downtime healing will work.

Put me down as disagree.

CHA based pool for boosting consumables feels good though. Reminds me of 3.5e UMD.

[PossibleCabbage]

So for a Con-based pool for consumable use, how about when you're out instead of "it doesn't work" instead you take Burn. Since what is the Kineticist's schtick other than "channeling external magic through your body".

[Voss]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Alchemaic wrote:

For Potions, sure. For Wands and Scrolls though?

I see no problem with insisting magic takes a physical toll on you when it comes from outside of oneself.

It seems an inherent contradiction to me. If it comes from outside, there isn't any reason for it not to be free. Nothing suggests the user is powering the scroll or the potion in any way at all.

It makes as much sense as insisting someone has to internally create calories to gain calories from drinking a soda.

[Vidmaster7]

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

[Greylurker]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

[thflame]

Greylurker wrote:

I want to track less fiddly stat numbers not more

So far we've got

Hit Points
Spell Points
Resonance Points
Hero Points

and you want to add on another one?

I want Resonance and Spell Points to be the same thing.

I also want Hero Points to die in a fire.

Besides, the alternative to Resonance is X times per day, tied to however many magic items you want.

I'd rather keep track of Resonance than the daily uses of each of my magic items.

[Vic Ferrari]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Alchemaic wrote:

For Potions, sure. For Wands and Scrolls though?

I see no problem with insisting magic takes a physical toll on you when it comes from outside of oneself.

That seems unintuitive, though, like it would be the opposite; drinking a potion does not generally seem like it would take a physical toll.

[thflame]

RazarTuk wrote:

Not a fan. The problem isn't specifically using resonance. It's the concept that a potion can not work at all.

This could be fixed by doing away with Resonance Checks.

You run out of Resonance? You're done. At least you KNOW that your potions won't do anything.

Alternatively, have potions be "toxic" like in The Witcher, and deal CON damage whenever you drink one. Your potions will always work, but eventually, they'll kill you if pop them like candy.

[Vic Ferrari]

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

Yeah, there was a strange debate on Enworld (5th Ed) about playing a 6 int character like Sherlock Holmes being fine, because only what is established in play matters. So, if you role-play like Holmes, and roll good Int checks, as far as the table is concerned, you are Sherlock.

[Vic Ferrari]

thflame wrote:

Alternatively, have potions be "toxic" like in The Witcher, and deal CON damage whenever you drink one. Your potions will always work, but eventually, they'll kill you if pop them like candy.

I don't think dying from downing a bunch of healing potions is the way to go.

[thflame]

Voss wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Alchemaic wrote:

For Potions, sure. For Wands and Scrolls though?

I see no problem with insisting magic takes a physical toll on you when it comes from outside of oneself.

It seems an inherent contradiction to me. If it comes from outside, there isn't any reason for it not to be free. Nothing suggests the user is powering the scroll or the potion in any way at all.

Nothing says the opposite either. Potions could be alchemical substances that react with Resonance/Life Force to produce an effect. Scrolls could be 99% complete spells that need a little more energy from you to work. Wands could be magical devices that turn Resonance/Life Force into spell effects.

Quote:

It makes as much sense as insisting someone has to internally create calories to gain calories from drinking a soda.

I suppose you'll say that you can drink 1000 sodas in one sitting. I mean, it's not like you have to burn calories to take in calories, there should be nothing stopping you from drinking 1000 sodas.

Or maybe it's the idea that your body can only take so much outside food/power/etc. before your body says "no more", or it doesn't do you any good, or it starts causing complications.

It's a two prong issue. Mechanically, without something like Resonance, it is too easy to for a mid level character to buy a bunch of low level wands/potions/etc. and never have to worry about getting hurt, so long as you don't die before you get to your magic first aid kit.

In game, people have preconceived notions that these items supply their own energy and just work.

The easy solution is to clarify, "no, potions/scrolls/wands don't just work. You have to supply outside energy to make them work."

This would explain why there isn't universal magical healthcare in Golarion and why adventurers supposedly actually die.

There isn't a single swords and sorcery fantasy genre, where the heroes run around with a keg of healing potion and a dozen wands of healing. (Before you say DnD/Pathfinder, note that in the books written in those settings, characters don't do this. This ONLY happens in the TTRPG, which means it is likely a bug and not a feature.)

Granted, I'm all for potions running off of a different pool of energy than what wands and scrolls run off of. I think Resonance makes perfect sense for wands, scrolls, and magic items, but I think potions should run off of something CON based.

[Vic Ferrari]

thflame wrote:

Mechanically, without something like Resonance, it is too easy to for a mid level character to buy a bunch of low level wands/potions/etc.

A solution is not having potions/wands, etc, be so readily available (magic marts, super-easy crafting); the Con deal seems a bit like Healing Surges.

[Vic Ferrari]

thflame wrote:

There isn't a single swords and sorcery fantasy genre, where the heroes run around with a keg of healing potion and a dozen wands of healing. (Before you say DnD/Pathfinder, note that in the books written in those settings, characters don't do this. This ONLY happens in the TTRPG, which means it is likely a bug and not a feature.)

I totally agree with this, and thus my campaigns are not awash with magic items (permanent magic is rare), certainly not for sale, they are usually found, stolen, bequeathed, etc. I would like less magic item reliance in this edition.

[Vidmaster7]

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

That totally explains why its a universal dump stat for anyone who is not playing a charisma based class or the party face.

[graystone]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

That totally explains why its a universal dump stat for anyone who is not playing a charisma based class or the party face.

And people aren't doing that with int NOW? There are only so many stats increases to go around so I don't really want EVERY stat to be a requirement especially in a system like this one where base rolls are figured out as if you have a max stat, max items, max everything. It's hard enough to get your base stats for your class up let alone other stats. Nothing IMO can be more boring that every class needing a 14 stat so every single person has to have the same starting stats.

[Vic Ferrari]

graystone wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

That totally explains why its a universal dump stat for anyone who is not playing a charisma based class or the party face.

And people aren't doing that with int NOW?

Yeah, Str, Int, and Cha, all take a bit of a beating in 5th Ed (all easily dumped, depending).

[Vidmaster7]

graystone wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

That totally explains why its a universal dump stat for anyone who is not playing a charisma based class or the party face.

And people aren't doing that with int NOW? There are only so many stats increases to go around so I don't really want EVERY stat to be a requirement especially in a system like this one where base rolls are figured out as if you have a max stat, max items, max everything. It's hard enough to get your base stats for your class up let alone other stats. Nothing IMO can be more boring that every class needing a 14 stat so every single person has to have the same starting stats.

Int does need some improvement sure.

Its not every stat being a requirement its every stats being useful. If I make a smart character I want an advantage if I make a charismatic character I want an advantage for that too. I want all stats some what desirable now as far as required goes I need you to define that. a fighter with a high str is preffered a wizard with high int. you want an ok dex and con usually. I want those last choice stats to mean something. If the stat isn't going to matter then why have it? (like the dex to damage hey just get rid of str if you don't have anything that uses it.)

Also your going about it the wrong way if the problem is the system assumes max everything you don't make it easier to max everything YOU CHANGE IT SO IT DOESN'T"T REQUIRE MAX EVERYTHING. people always have to do things the hard way.

Its not a matter of needing a 14 stat but it is nice when if I did get a 14 stat I got something out of it.

[Vidmaster7]

I frankly want every stat to feel like constitution may not be priority but I'm also not gonna dump it unless I have to. I get something out of buffing it but if i don't I can live just have to play a certain way (cautiously in constitutions case)

[Tholomyes]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I frankly want every stat to feel like constitution may not be priority but I'm also not gonna dump it unless I have to. I get something out of buffing it but if i don't I can live just have to play a certain way (cautiously in constitutions case)

This actually sums up my feelings as well. Unfortunately, I think this can be hard to do without every character feeling MAD, but I think, properly scaled, resonance has the potential to work well with this for CHA (though given that they seem like they're going to be changing it, who knows whether it will be so in the final game).

The issue, I think is the issue with that proper scaling. Firstly, with the limited healing (unless someone acquiesced to playing a cleric), healing took a disproportionate amount of the space of resonance, since you always had to weigh "is this worth more than a healing potion". Their changes to non-magical healing might solve this well enough. But the second issue is that Con is more a percentile increase in HP, though the percentile gains differ for different classes. Perhaps rather than +level, if it were Cha+5 (or whatever), and they gave a flat boost every X levels, to account for more invested magic items, I think it would get a better feeling as a percentile increase, especially if you could feel better about using it on things that aren't healing.

[ParcelRod]

FFG's Genesys system(can't remember if SW or WHFRP 3rd used a similar mechanic) has a mechanic where characters develop tolerace to their healing or restorative consumables over the day. They become less effective and eventually stop workin. Though I don't think its tied to the equivalent CON stat so much as it is a baseline for every character getting about 6 or so uses with diminishing returns. Gotta see if i can read the PDF sometime.

I also like PossibleCabage's suggestion as well. Too much of anything over a short-ish period of time should be a bad thing. The Positive energy plane is a great thing but good luck surviving on it for an extended period with no protection.

[Ilina Aniri]

Vic Ferrari wrote:

graystone wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Greylurker wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do.

Charisma has something to do, just a lot of people think they can bypass it by talking directly at the GM and claim they are "Role-playing" instead of playing the insecure mumbler that their 6 Charisma says they should be.

That totally explains why its a universal dump stat for anyone who is not playing a charisma based class or the party face.

And people aren't doing that with int NOW?

Yeah, Str, Int, and Cha, all take a bit of a beating in 5th Ed (all easily dumped, depending).

this is because a lot of New Game Masters forget how important Athletics and investigation are as Skills, which led to the perception of dexterity being a god stat and perception being a god skill. because a lot of GM's ask you to roll Acrobatics for checks that should be Athletics (like Jumping) or ask for Perception rolls for things that Should be investigation or insight.

one thing that is detailed in the dungeon master's guide and is a highly important optional rule is you can make a case to justify any attribute for a skill in the right circumstance. for example, you can roll the rare intelligence based persuasion check to Coerce an AI through Logic or a Strength based Intimidation roll as a show of raw might.

there are a lot of things that by the game's design should use strength or intelligence, that the game masters end up accidentally calling for dexterity or wisdom.

this is especially common amongst newer game masters of D&D 5e as well as less secure ones who allow their players to push them into rolling the skill they want to use rather than the skill they are supposed to use.

this is the big reason dexterity appears to be a god stat and perception appears to be the uber skill. because not enough game masters call for athletics or investigation rolls when they are supposed to and some 5e third party module writers can't really make the distinction. this is also confusing for game masters who came from Pathfinder or even 4th Edition, where you could take a five foot step as a free action and shoot a dude you were once in melee with for free, or make an acrobatics roll with an Easy static DC to negate opportunity attacks.

[Vidmaster7]

Tholomyes wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I frankly want every stat to feel like constitution may not be priority but I'm also not gonna dump it unless I have to. I get something out of buffing it but if i don't I can live just have to play a certain way (cautiously in constitutions case)

This actually sums up my feelings as well. Unfortunately, I think this can be hard to do without every character feeling MAD, but I think, properly scaled, resonance has the potential to work well with this for CHA (though given that they seem like they're going to be changing it, who knows whether it will be so in the final game).

The issue, I think is the issue with that proper scaling. Firstly, with the limited healing (unless someone acquiesced to playing a cleric), healing took a disproportionate amount of the space of resonance, since you always had to weigh "is this worth more than a healing potion". Their changes to non-magical healing might solve this well enough. But the second issue is that Con is more a percentile increase in HP, though the percentile gains differ for different classes. Perhaps rather than +level, if it were Cha+5 (or whatever), and they gave a flat boost every X levels, to account for more invested magic items, I think it would get a better feeling as a percentile increase, especially if you could feel better about using it on things that aren't healing.

Yeah I think some sacrifices you make sometimes but thats part of the game. Like you neglect int and you know your going to have problems with skills but its a sacrifice you make for that extra high str or dex or what have you. just like if you accept say I won't bump my con to a 14 ill keep it as a 12. you know their will be consequences but its a trade off. Thats how I want it. I don't want a situation where its like well I'll dump charisma because we have a bard to do all the talking so it won't do me any good to have anyways.

[Vidmaster7]

I don't think it is just new players. I have seen many a veteran player posting on optimizing threads that prioritize dex and perception too.

[Ilina Aniri]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't think it is just new players. I have seen many a veteran player posting on optimizing threads that prioritize dex and perception too.

i said new game masters, not new players. meaning game masters who are either new to 5e or just skim the rulebook for the basics and don't bother with the complex stuff.

[Vidmaster7]

Ilina Aniri wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't think it is just new players. I have seen many a veteran player posting on optimizing threads that prioritize dex and perception too.

i said new game masters, not new players. meaning game masters who are either new to 5e or just skim the rulebook for the basics and don't bother with the complex stuff.

Ah ok. Hmm not sure. that's harder to confirm. I have noticed that new GM's want to over use perception checks anyways. The new DM's didn't seem to take dex as much of a god stat I don't think but they did have experience playing and watching another GM so maybe they weren't exactly new.

[Ilina Aniri]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Ilina Aniri wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't think it is just new players. I have seen many a veteran player posting on optimizing threads that prioritize dex and perception too.

i said new game masters, not new players. meaning game masters who are either new to 5e or just skim the rulebook for the basics and don't bother with the complex stuff.

Ah ok. Hmm not sure. that's harder to confirm. I have noticed that new GM's want to over use perception checks anyways. The new DM's didn't seem to take dex as much of a god stat I don't think but they did have experience playing and watching another GM so maybe they weren't exactly new.

perception checks and dexterity rolls usually get over rolled for mundane things. perception isn't general vision, it is merely ability to notice minute details like ambushes.

[graystone]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I frankly want every stat to feel like constitution may not be priority but I'm also not gonna dump it unless I have to. I get something out of buffing it but if i don't I can live just have to play a certain way (cautiously in constitutions case)

I'm fine with taking a stat being a perk and nice to have but not a requirement: that's why I'm so against cha being tied to consumables. Tying it to a life and death resource [and quality of life one] makes it no longer a perk and instead makes it a requirement. It's not in the same league as int on a fighter or str on a wizard or cha on an alchemist.

[Vidmaster7]

graystone wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I frankly want every stat to feel like constitution may not be priority but I'm also not gonna dump it unless I have to. I get something out of buffing it but if i don't I can live just have to play a certain way (cautiously in constitutions case)

I'm fine with taking a stat being a perk and nice to have but not a requirement: that's why I'm so against cha being tied to consumables. Tying it to a life and death resource [and quality of life one] makes it no longer a perk and instead makes it a requirement. It's not in the same league as int on a fighter or str on a wizard or cha on an alchemist.

You do know they are changing that right?

Even if they weren't all you would need to do is get the starting number of resonance points right so that it was just your charisma mod.

[Madame Endor]

thflame wrote:

I also want Hero Points to die in a fire.

Agreed

[Ilina Aniri]

i can understand permanent items being attuned to resonance but consumables should be unlimited use and only limited by the group's supply. purely because the wand of CLW in PF1 and the Wand of IH were the only valid cures to the 1 minute adventuring day that didn't involving devoting a player character slot to a walking anthropomorphic first aid kit. what i hate about what i have seen about PF2e playtest is that they force you to bring a character that is minmaxed to be a walking sapient anthropomorphic first aid kit if you want to fight more than 1 encounter per like two weeks.

Edit: did i say 1 minute adventuring day? i meant to say 1 minute per 2 weeks.

[graystone]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

You do know they are changing that right?

This was all in reply to your "Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do." I'm not really commenting on any changes until I see them in, what 12 hours?

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Even if they weren't all you would need to do is get the starting number of resonance points right so that it was just your charisma mod.

I totally disagree: the starting number I think would be adequate for consumables isn't the number I'd want for charges/per day items and that isn't the number I'd want for item slots. SO you'd have to inflate the number high enough to allow for using up slots and for consumable use but not give too many to overpower charges/per day items... IMO, a number that does that well doesn't exist.

[Vidmaster7]

graystone wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

You do know they are changing that right?

This was all in reply to your "Part of the reason I liked resonance was because it gave charisma something to do." I'm not really commenting on any changes until I see them in, what 12 hours?

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Even if they weren't all you would need to do is get the starting number of resonance points right so that it was just your charisma mod.

I totally disagree: the starting number I think would be adequate for consumables isn't the number I'd want for charges/per day items and that isn't the number I'd want for item slots. SO you'd have to inflate the number high enough to allow for using up slots and for consumable use but not give too many to overpower charges/per day items... IMO, a number that does that well doesn't exist.

A number that does that well doesn't exist? you know how numbers work right? I'll take that as a bit more metaphorical and assume you mean that you just don't think its possible.

I still don't believe you go through 4+ consumable magic items for each party member per day at 1st level.

Also the topic of this thread isn't whether or not we like resonance but rather if it would be better con based I've already argued with you about why I like resonance if you want to go back to that one that is fine but the root of what I'm saying is that I'd prefer charisma to con while yours maintains that its best to get rid of it entirely. so rather then take up another page of a thread with the same argument I've had with you like 2 or 3 times now. we can just move it back to one of the other threads if you would like.

Also why are you opposed to progress you said you won't argue about the rules before they have applied but I feel it is pointless to argue about a rule that is already being changed or already planned to be changed. The new one is basically charisma will just be for slotted items and I'm waiting to see what the new limit on consumables will be before I start throwing rocks at people. (I do have some rocks saved up mind you.)

Its a play test you got to adapt fast or you'll get left behind.

[Igor Horvat]

Problem is that 6 abilities are The Sacred Cow.

In D&D, PF, SF or whatever variation of d20 "D&D" system.

6 is too much, not to mention WhiteWolf 9 abilities. Or Dragon Age 8.

The more abilities you have, it's easier to dump one, or even two.

You have other to focus on.

If we reduce abilites to 4:

Strength: Current mechanics+Con mechanics
skills: athletics

Dexterity: Current mechanics
Skills: acrobatics, stealth, thievery

Willpower: Current will saves and magic ability for all classes.

Cunning: Blend of current int,wis and cha skill usage(the "finesse" part of your brain)
used for all skill checks except: athletics, acrobatics, stealth and thievery.
bonus skills and languages(also less skills and languages for negative modifier)

This way any ability that is dumped will be felt really bad.

str: low HPs and fortitude saves, need to use low dmg finesse weapons

dex: low AC, bad ranged options, low reflex save

will: low will saves, useless at any magic

Cunn: lower number of skills, party's "dunce"

[Vidmaster7]

No it reminds me to much of the tri-system I hated the tri-system. I'm comfortable with 6. although their is a good argument for str and dex being combined. After all the only difference is the kind of muscle your strengthening. white or red.

[Vic Ferrari]

Ilina Aniri wrote:

this is because a lot of New Game Masters forget how important Athletics and investigation are as Skills, which led to the perception of dexterity being a god stat and perception being a god skill. because a lot of GM's ask you to roll Acrobatics for checks that should be Athletics (like Jumping) or ask for Perception rolls for things that Should be investigation or insight.

Yeah, untying specific ability scores from Skills, like making a Con (Athletics) check to swim for an extended period of time, it was in one of the playtest packets, ended up as a variant in the DMG, I use it, still has nothing to do with Dex's domination.

Oh, and tying grappling to Athletics (with Expertise: stupid) is another grave design error in 5th Ed. Fortunately, as per 5th Ed, easily house-ruled/tweaked, one of my favourite things about 5th Ed: ease of hackability.