How resonance destroys a game with a single roll of the dice

[callmedoug]

I roll a play test character as a Dwarf fighter. Dwarf starts with 8 Charisma. so at level 1 gets a resonance pool of 0.

First combat, gets hit hard a couple times, tried to drink potion - Nat 1. character can no longer be healed without a Cleric casting heal on him.

Ooops no Cleric in party. sorry guys, I am done as a front liner for the day, will stand in the back until we can rest.

In PFS, i can count on one hand the number of times we had a true Healer in the party. Now without one, the game becomes fight - rest for 24 hours, move on, fight - rest for 24 hours - move on. especially at low levels.

Sure at higher levels people say oh you have enough levels that you can use your items, but you can't heal - and at high level games you have to be able to heal yourself in combat. and a single dice roll can ensure you are out of the fight for a full day.

as a single rule, this is enough to not play 2.0.

[callmedoug]

Should also point out, in looking through the playtest scenarios and bestiary i didn't find a single instance of NPCs or creatures being affected by resonance. Does this only affect PCs? is it assumed that an NPC always makes their roll to use a potion or a wand? if i missed resonance in the bestiary where do I find it in the statblock?

[Dire Ursus]

I agree at level 1 you should never have to start with 0 resonance, but yeah you kinda asked for it by completely dumping charisma. Also it sounds like you're a player but you're looking through the bestiary and scenarios? That's kinda cheating. I don't really see many instances of Creatures using magic items anyways. So no they aren't affected by resonance unless you want them to be. A GM can easily track their resonance by just adding their level and cha mod but it's quite a bit of work to do when you can just hand waive it and say they have enough resonance for whatever task they are trying to accomplish.

[Themetricsystem]

Don't dump CHA or pay the price, its all about risk v reward... especially if you don't have a healer, its really quite simple.

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to, you'll adapt.

[Mark Seifter]

Dire Ursus wrote:

I agree at level 1 you should never have to start with 0 resonance, but yeah you kinda asked for it by completely dumping charisma. Also it sounds like you're a player but you're looking through the bestiary and scenarios? That's kinda cheating. I don't really see many instances of Creatures using magic items anyways. So no they aren't affected by resonance unless you want them to be. A GM can easily track their resonance by just adding their level and cha mod but it's quite a bit of work to do when you can just hand waive it and say they have enough resonance for whatever task they are trying to accomplish.

We included resonance when the creature had a real chance to exhaust it all or uses it for its main abilities, which I think is only the demilich.

[Malk_Content]

You seem to be forgetting that as a Dwarf you have innately more HP over other races than that potion could have possibly have given you. So the lack of resonance didn't do you in even if it feel like it, because someone with 10 cha but 4 less HP would be in just a bad a state. And bad rolls happen. You could have died because you rolled a Nat 1 climbing up a 20ft wall. You could have died because an enemy got a Nat 20 against you. I'm not sure how this is a Resonance problem any more than it is a "dice rolls exist" problem, except that the Res roll just happened to be the thing that exposed the dice problem.

[Robert Bunker]

Malk_Content wrote:

You seem to be forgetting that as a Dwarf you have innately more HP over other races than that potion could have possibly have given you. So the lack of resonance didn't do you in even if it feel like it, because someone with 10 cha but 4 less HP would be in just a bad a state. And bad rolls happen. You could have died because you rolled a Nat 1 climbing up a 20ft wall. You could have died because an enemy got a Nat 20 against you. I'm not sure how this is a Resonance problem any more than it is a "dice rolls exist" problem, except that the Res roll just happened to be the thing that exposed the dice problem.

4 Extra HP is worth a lot less than the RP you lose by being a Dwarf.

Resonance is fine at high levels and makes low levels feel like crap.

Either there needs to be a minimum, or low level consumables should be excluded.

Or the developers could join the modern world of tabletop games and give us healing on short rests.

This is something players want, its a big reason for 5e's popularity, and its something all of my players want to see in 2e or we won't be playing.

Mandatory dedicated healers makes the game feel like WoW. If I wanted that experience I would just re-up my subscription.

[callmedoug]

Dire Ursus wrote:

Also it sounds like you're a player but you're looking through the bestiary and scenarios? That's kinda cheating.

I am both a player and GM (3 Stars). I am looking at the play test from both sides for that reason. Hard for me to run a game as a GM without reading the Bestiary and scenerio

Never dumped Cha - I rolled a character like someone who would as a new player - and a Dwarf starts with 8 in Cha. It is only considered dumping when you deliberately reduce the stat to raise something else.

The point is a single roll stops you from healing through potions for the rest of the day, and in PFS most scenarios take place in a single day. So in PFS a character who hits that 5% chance of a 1 is SOL for the rest of the Scenario.

I agree that as a GM I can add up the points, but without a RP count to start with, I have to count what they have for gear, and figure out their starting point based on what they are wearing then track the RP for each NPC as the fights go on. So thus the question is RP for PC only or for both PC and NPC?

[necromental]

Dire Ursus wrote:

Also it sounds like you're a player but you're looking through the bestiary and scenarios? That's kinda cheating.

You are aware that some GMs are players, and some players GM? Also, it's a playtest not a great mystery campaign.

[Ryan Freire]

The modern world of tabletop games sucks.

[RazarTuk]

Robert Bunker wrote:

Mandatory dedicated healers makes the game feel like WoW. If I wanted that experience I would just re-up my subscription.

It also doesn't fit in well with PFS. Unlike a home game, you can't assume every party will fill every role. So if no one brought a cleric, though luck.

[Malk_Content]

Robert Bunker wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

You seem to be forgetting that as a Dwarf you have innately more HP over other races than that potion could have possibly have given you. So the lack of resonance didn't do you in even if it feel like it, because someone with 10 cha but 4 less HP would be in just a bad a state. And bad rolls happen. You could have died because you rolled a Nat 1 climbing up a 20ft wall. You could have died because an enemy got a Nat 20 against you. I'm not sure how this is a Resonance problem any more than it is a "dice rolls exist" problem, except that the Res roll just happened to be the thing that exposed the dice problem.

4 Extra HP is worth a lot less than the RP you lose by being a Dwarf.

Nope you always get that 4HP, whereas drinking a potion of healing might give you more than 4HP but also might not (and the Elixers can give at BEST that much) and you don't have to take any actions to have that 4HP, you just have it so you have an action economy advantage over a person who has to drink a potion to have the same overall HP as you.

At higher levels of course that extra HP becomes worth less, but so to does the -1 Res become less problematic.

[Vition]

For me, this looks like a character where the GM didn't quite do his job when he introduced the new game (yes, I read that the OP was also a GM). As a GM myself, I expect to have greater system mastery than my players do. My response to the character would be as follows:

"You made a dwarf fighter as your first character, huh? Can I look at your character sheet?... It looks like you dumped charisma, it's possible you may want to rethink that. As a front-line fighter there's a very good chance you are going to be taking some damage, and magic items, particularly including potions, use a resource in this game based off charisma. With an 8 you won't reliably be able to use healing potions at level 1, and you might even be at a disadvantage in using magic items at later levels. All your stats matter for important parts of gameplay now, so you have to make decisions on what you are willing to go without."

Knowing my regular players, whoever made this character would have follow-up questions where I would probably expand on the rules regarding resonance.

[Aristophanes]

While I generally like resonance, I do agree that every character should get a minimum of 1 resonance point at the start of the day. So that Dwarf, and I suspect many others, would have one RP at first and second levels.
One of the characters I had created for part 2 was a Dwarf Barbarian. I left charisma at 8, to test the resonance system, but someone else brought a Barb, so I used my backup, a Cleric with the wizard dedication.

[Zedth]

It feels really punitive to have zero Resonance, even as a first level lowbie. Seems like there should be a minimum of 1.

[Gratz]

This scenario looks like it's going to be quite a rare occurrence: At level 1, you don't have enough gold (or rather silver) to buy a single Healing Potion nor a single Elixir of Life, as both cost 3gp. Even if you pick up one of these during or after your fights, they only heal you for 1d8 or 1d6 respectively, so neither of those would even heal you up to half of your maximum hit points. So at that point, the most efficient answer would be to adapt your fighting style and let someone else take some hits, instead of you. The only conclusion I draw from this scenario is that a healer is probably required at this point of the playtest, even if it doesn't have to be a fully dedicated healer.

Honestly, overall I don't have a big problem with this scenario, as it feels like this actually makes having Charisma as a dump stat relevant, which rarely has been the case before. The only thing that makes me worry a bit about this is how it affects the potential of Alchemists as healers, because it puts an additional cap on their healing, which they can't even influence themselves and is dependent on their companions. But I don't know if Alchemists can even pump out enough elixirs for this to become a problem too often...

[callmedoug]

CHA IS NOT - REPEAT NOT - A DUMP STAT FOR A DWARF. They start with CHA 8.

I was building how a new player who wanted to play a regular character of a certain race would build. It was NOT a min-max build.

Can people stop calling anything below 10 a dump stat - it isn’t. Only when you deliberately drop a stat so you can raise another one is it a dump stat.

Even if it were a 10, tell me once when anyone have played a full scenario when the front liner only required a single heal. Cause after that you are SOL anyway if you roll bad

[Funky Badger]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to,

Why is this?

Does it improve the game?

[Gratz]

callmedoug wrote:

Only when you deliberately drop a stat so you can raise another one is it a dump stat.

By that defintion there are no more dump stats in PF2, but that doesn't change the fact that the game punished your WEAK stat, or whatever you want to call it. In my book that's fine, because there should be consequences for weaknesses, which were rarely present before in the case of Charisma.

callmedoug wrote:

Even if it were a 10, tell me once when anyone have played a full scenario when the front liner only required a single heal.

I don't think anyone has made that claim, but I also don't think that groups have that many healing potions at their disposal at level 1, not even in PF1. So I guess this should lead to a rethinking of tactics, especially if you know that you don't have a healer in your group. You can't just play PF2 just like it were PF1 and expect to be successful with the same strategies.

[Ryan Freire]

Funky Badger wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to,

Why is this?

Does it improve the game?

No, it doesn't as evidenced by how much people hate resonance, hate having to stop adventuring due to hp loss, and hate the idea of a dedicated healer being required in party.

[Funky Badger]

Gratz wrote:

You can't just play PF2 just like it were PF1 and expect to be successful with the same strategies.

Dunno where people would have got the idea they were similar, really.

[Rules Artificer]

I do think that this indicates that the scaling with Resonance is a little off. The developers have also stated that the current mechanics of Resonance do little to limit the huge quantities of cheap magic items that high-level players can use, which is (by dev statement) one of the design goals of the Resonance mechanic.

It seems like an easy solution to me to have Resonance start higher and scale slower than 1/level. This both helps low-level characters from being scrapped for Resonance when they arguably need it most, and helps high-level characters having way too much Resonance (according to the devs).

[Mathmuse]

Gratz wrote:

callmedoug wrote:

Even if it were a 10, tell me once when anyone have played a full scenario when the front liner only required a single heal.

I don't think anyone has made that claim, but I also don't think that groups have that many healing potions at their disposal at level 1, not even in PF1. So I guess this should lead to a rethinking of tactics, especially if you know that you don't have a healer in your group. You can't just play PF2 just like it were PF1 and expect to be successful with the same strategies.

What alternative tactics would work? First-level characters have few feats for fancy tactics.

When I began an Iron Gods campaign in December 2015 (Iron Gods among Scientists), I had only three players. I gave the player characters more resources to compensate for the undersized party, including three potions of Cure Light Wounds donated by a local cleric Mylan Radli.

One of the PCs was a dwarf gunslinger with no social skills. Her Charisma was probably 10.

The strix skald in the party could cast Cure Light Wounds twice a day (strix also have a Charisma penalty, but she boosted her Charisma for her class). The party recruited a 1st-level bloodrager NPC to help. Nevertheless, they used up the healing potions. They pooled their wealth and purchased a Wand of Cure Light Wounds before upgrading any of their other gear.

That one wand lasted until the strix skald learned to make wands herself at 5th level. First level was rough on them. They were better at avoiding damage and healing it themselves at higher levels. Well mostly. We found a 4th player who played a well-armored fighter, but that fighter went unconscious in one difficult fight at 2nd level. The next near-death experience I recall was at 7th level.

A restriction on healing consumables that most restricts 1st-level characters feels misplaced.

Rules Artificer wrote:

I do think that this indicates that the scaling with Resonance is a little off. The developers have also stated that the current mechanics of Resonance do little to limit the huge quantities of cheap magic items that high-level players can use, which is (by dev statement) one of the design goals of the Resonance mechanic.

It seems like an easy solution to me to have Resonance start higher and scale slower than 1/level. This both helps low-level characters from being scrapped for Resonance when they arguably need it most, and helps high-level characters having way too much Resonance (according to the devs).

I agree.

[thorin001]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Don't dump CHA or pay the price, its all about risk v reward... especially if you don't have a healer, its really quite simple.

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to, you'll adapt.

No I won't, I will just play a different game.

[theservantsllcleanitup]

I'd like to point out for posterity that 3gp is 30sp and you start at level 1 with 150sp, enough for 5 healing potions (not advisable of course lol). But having one or two in your party at level 1 is certainly not out of the question.

[WatersLethe]

I GM'd the Lost Star. Fighter was downed, drank a potion and was out of resonance. Would have drank a second, but opted instead to face tank Drakus because it wasn't worth possibly wasting the potion and the cleric could pick him back up again.

And it's absolute garbage that no one is complaining that the 10 str wizard or rogue aren't having any problems, or that everyone's rocking 10 int, but playing with 10 cha? Unacceptable badwrongfun. Everyone must be likeable, smooth talking adventurers so you can woo your potions before drinking them.

[PossibleCabbage]

Dwarves are why I feel like the floor for resonance should be 3+ChaMod+Level not 1+ChaMod+Level, that way you can only end up with 0 resonance at level 1 if you make 3 separate choices (to be a dwarf, to leave your charisma at 8, and to take ancient's blood) but it at least increases by 1 every level instead of having to first buy back a -3.

[Skeld]

I GM'd Lost Star a couple weeks ago and one of my players made a Dwarf Fighter because, he reasoned, that Dwarf Fighters are relatively iconic to the genre. His fighter also had 0 resonance, because Dwarves start with 8 Cha and you have to pick Cha buffing character options to raise it.

His character was down, tried to drink a potion, and failed the Res check, wasted the potion, and had nothing to show for it. As a GM, I think this completely sucks.

Gratz wrote:

You can't just play PF2 just like it were PF1 and expect to be successful with the same strategies.

Agreed; we can ignore PF2 and just keep playing PF1. I don't see any reason to switch to the new game when it's less fun that the old game.

-Skeld

[Ryan Freire]

Rules Artificer wrote:

I do think that this indicates that the scaling with Resonance is a little off. The developers have also stated that the current mechanics of Resonance do little to limit the huge quantities of cheap magic items that high-level players can use, which is (by dev statement) one of the design goals of the Resonance mechanic.

It seems like an easy solution to me to have Resonance start higher and scale slower than 1/level. This both helps low-level characters from being scrapped for Resonance when they arguably need it most, and helps high-level characters having way too much Resonance (according to the devs).

Its not about resonance being "a little off" its about it being a bad solution to a "problem" fewer people want solved than some think. An easy solution is to scrap resonance entirely, up the prices of wands and/or change their mechanics to work more like 1 spell staves.

[Luceon]

callmedoug wrote:

I roll a play test character as a Dwarf fighter. Dwarf starts with 8 Charisma. so at level 1 gets a resonance pool of 0.

First combat, gets hit hard a couple times, tried to drink potion - Nat 1. character can no longer be healed without a Cleric casting heal on him.

Ooops no Cleric in party. sorry guys, I am done as a front liner for the day, will stand in the back until we can rest.

In PFS, i can count on one hand the number of times we had a true Healer in the party. Now without one, the game becomes fight - rest for 24 hours, move on, fight - rest for 24 hours - move on. especially at low levels.

Sure at higher levels people say oh you have enough levels that you can use your items, but you can't heal - and at high level games you have to be able to heal yourself in combat. and a single dice roll can ensure you are out of the fight for a full day.

as a single rule, this is enough to not play 2.0.

Mistake #1 Dump stating CHA.

Mistake #2 Playing Dwarves. (JK)

Mistake #3 Getting hit.

Mistake #3 Rolling a 1.

Mistake #4 Joined a party with no healing, spells or otherwise.

[Luceon]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Dwarves are why I feel like the floor for resonance should be 3+ChaMod+Level not 1+ChaMod+Level, that way you can only end up with 0 resonance at level 1 if you make 3 separate choices (to be a dwarf, to leave your charisma at 8, and to take ancient's blood) but it at least increases by 1 every level instead of having to first buy back a -3.

This seems like a good idea.

I think there should also be that same floor to overnight recovery for low CON characters.

[Doktor Weasel]

Ryan Freire wrote:

Its not about resonance being "a little off" its about it being a bad solution to a "problem" fewer people want solved than some think. An easy solution is to scrap resonance entirely, up the prices of wands and/or change their mechanics to work more like 1 spell staves.

Maybe 1st or second level wands need to be increased in price, but the 3rd and 4th need to be reduced or have their effectiveness increased to avoid the point that it's always more cost effective to just spam low-level wands than have a higher level one. Exponential pricing breaks down on things like healing where you can get the same effect cheaper by just using it more times. It's even worse with potions, the True Healing Potion has an absurd price that's not worth it's effect even with resonance forcing you to use higher level items. A highly artificial and punitive system is a bad solution for a problem caused by the insistence on exponential pricing (and all the other problems it's supposed to fix, many of which aren't problems in my mind). Fix the pricing instead so there is an actual reason for higher level healing items, instead of punishing players for using magic.

Wands in general might need to be reworked and an eye kept on the pricing so there isn't a financial incentive to use the lower level ones. Maybe higher level wands have more charges than lower level ones. How about level 1 wands have 5 charges, level 2 have 10, level 3 have 15 and level 4 have 20? Perhaps the higher level healing items have extra effects than just healing HP.

[graystone]

Luceon wrote:

Mistake #1 Dump stating CHA.

Mistake #2 Playing Dwarves. (JK)

Mistake #3 Getting hit.

Mistake #3 Rolling a 1.

Mistake #4 Joined a party with no healing, spells or otherwise.

IMO, Mistake #1 playing a game with Resonance.

Mistake #2 see Mistake #1

Mark Seifter wrote:

We included resonance when the creature had a real chance to exhaust it all or uses it for its main abilities, which I think is only the demilich.

This confuses me. We were told in the lead up to the playtest that in house testing showed that players weren't hitting the resonance limit. Going by what you just said, it seems PC's shouldn't have resonance for the reason most monsters don't going by the same logic.

[Luceon]

Doktor Weasel wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

Its not about resonance being "a little off" its about it being a bad solution to a "problem" fewer people want solved than some think. An easy solution is to scrap resonance entirely

I played a healer in the Level 4 adventure, as the two level 2 items I chose two wands of heal, I had so much healing power it was a blast. With 14 CHA I started the day with 6 Resonence, which ended up giving me at a minimum 6 more heals from the wands. Just an idea, that some people don't think of. When people say get rid of resonance, I wonder if they realize the implications, without residence I could have spammed those wands like crazy. I don't think I would like being that OP.

[Matthew Downie]

This seems more like a healing issue than a Resonance issue. Removing Resonance would only fix the issue for PCs who have sufficient potions - and would probably create a game where every fight is followed by glugging a bunch of potions.

It could equally be fixed through the various healing systems people have proposed in other threads.

[Twilight_Arcanum]

graystone wrote:

How many days does it take before he has 2 useless sticks and 2 less items than everyone else? There is a big difference between a one shot and a character you're playing from level to level.

You would hope the other party members would help you buy more sticks.

In a 4 party maximum efficiency with a level 2 wand is using 3 action heal for 4d8+4*spellmod(probably 16). For a total of 40d8+160
but we will just use the flat 40d8 below.

(I am converting +4/+5 into an additional d8 of healing below)

Buying 40 1d8 healing potions costs 120gp vs the 72 of the wand
buying 13 2d8+4 costs 104gp vs 72 of the wand
buying 10 3d8+5 is 200gp vs 72

Minimum efficicany is 3d8+4 or 30d8+40
2d8+4 gets down to 10 for 80 vs 72 the others aren't close

So if you are buying consumable healing I'd skip more than a single potion and invest in a wand instead. Clearly though a Cleric is worth his weight in gold since all you need to do to keep them precious heals flowing is a good night's rest

[Vali Nepjarson]

Resonance is my favorite new system added to a Pathfinder/D&D iterative since spells. I love it for several different reasons.

1) It helps world-building in an amazing way. Golorian feels like magic is much more woven into everything and everyone now than it ever was. I am magic, even as a fighter, my very body and spirit are magic, and the magical flow of energy between me and my magical items and potions is what creates these effects. I love it.

2) Charisma is no longer useless and there are consequences to leaving any stat weak. This is as it should be. Obviously, every class has stats that are particularly important to them, but if a Sorcerer has to deal with the reprecussions of a low Dex, then a Fighter should have to deal with the reprecussions of having a low Cha.

3) Magic items are now extremely valuable and coveted and one has to actually put thought into whether they should be used or not. This sort of ties into the whole "Wand of CLW" thing in showing how much of a cheap commodity magic items were in PF1.

Now does this mean that the system is perfect as is and couldn't be improved? Absolutely not! I agree with many people here that you should always at least have a minimum of 1 Resonance no matter what (I mean, given what I said regarding the world building earlier, a character in Golorian having no Resonance would be like a person Star Wars having no connection to the Force, which would be absurd). Plus, at higher levels, you get so much resonance that Cha is no longer important and magic items become casual consumables again.

Personally, I'd probably scale resonance something like...

2*Cha + 1/2Lvl (not counting negative Charisma). Maybe add +1 or +3 to that. There may be better ways of doing this, as the math is a bit clunky, but I think it scales better than the current set up.

Also, since you can't use as many potions at low levels as you could before, and have to spread them out, they should he more powerful and useful to compensate. At least the low level ones. Since a low Cha Fighter or Barb can't be expected to be able to use many health potions per day, they should be about twice as effective, IMO.

And we need a way of healing at least somewhat between combat encounters without potions or spells or clerics. A short rest system that you can use once per day, and more reliable healing access for Alchemists, Bards, and Druids at least. They shouldn't be as good as the Clerics, but they should have something more than they have. That way there are still other options for when Resonance runs out.

[Vic Ferrari]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Dwarves are why I feel like the floor for resonance should be 3+ChaMod+Level not 1+ChaMod+Level, that way you can only end up with 0 resonance at level 1 if you make 3 separate choices (to be a dwarf, to leave your charisma at 8, and to take ancient's blood) but it at least increases by 1 every level instead of having to first buy back a -3.

Yeah, or: 1 or Charisma modifier, whichever is greater, + Level.

[Goldenfoxx]

I still think the problem with resonance is that it doesnt go far enough. Consumable items should have two levels, one basic and one "Resonance charged". You want the heal stick... ok, that will be 1d4 per activation unless you charge the activation with a resonance. Consumables are never wasted, just a much lesser effect. Already made a post about this previously.

[Themetricsystem]

thorin001 wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Don't dump CHA or pay the price, its all about risk v reward... especially if you don't have a healer, its really quite simple.

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to, you'll adapt.

No I won't, I will just play a different game.

How am I supposed to react to that? K bye?

[Ryan Freire]

Themetricsystem wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Don't dump CHA or pay the price, its all about risk v reward... especially if you don't have a healer, its really quite simple.

Cheap unlimited healing for everyone is going away, and it needs to, you'll adapt.

No I won't, I will just play a different game.

How am I supposed to react to that? K bye?

You could start by not responding to peoples unhappiness with "nothing is wrong with the game its surely the players who are wrong"

[ENHenry]

Jason Bulmahn stats in the Friday Paizo Twitch chat that Resonance in its current form will NOT survive the playtest, but it is unlikely that it will be totally rolled back to the PF1 way of doing things, so those upset with resonance can be assured that it is at least being changed in some way.

For this particular case from the original post, I don’t see a problem, myself, because the character was built to optimize something else (STR, CON, whatever was chose besides charisma) at the cost of a weakness in resonance. However, in my experience a party who plays without any healer is courting disaster, and it has been standard wisdom in 40+ years of D&D gaming to have a healer of some kind in the party, it’s only been during the lifetime of 3.x D&D that some groups have been relying on cure wounds wands and potions as their main source of healing, and at the risk of a “badwrongfun” statement, I think it’s a bad habit for the hobby as a whole to have established. It has taken what was once a viable role in the party (that of healer) and relegated it to “healing in a can.” Some people don’t like healer as a party role? That’s fine, but it’s been denigrated completely in PF1 as being “mechanically unviable” and “worthless waste of actions”.

That said, since it IS now a precedent, for good or ill, there does need to be more widespread healing capability, at the very least in between encounters, and resonance in its current form does need some tweaks. Either a limited pool of healing surges (as D&D4) or recovery dice (as in D&D5) or classes that can heal need more ‘oomph’ (which is the direction Jason Bulmahn seemed to be leaning in the recent Twitch stream).

[Goldenfoxx]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

You could start by not responding to peoples unhappiness with "nothing is wrong with the game its surely the players who are wrong"

"Bulk is bad and needs to go away because my 8 STR Alchemist cant carry his equipment & 15 other things without being encumbered."

This is no different, you're actively choosing to leave your Cha at a negative score and you complain about the drawbacks.

Having a Character die because of poor rolls is one thing and it feels bad that I'll admit, but when the player knowingly chose to endanger the PC by relying on luck in order to use a Healing Potion... that on the player, not the system.

Mane, I totally get it. It doesn't matter how many resonance points you had... At one point, you are gonna need a heal potion not to die, and a flat roll failure that you have no agency to control, could make your character die. Totally get it. I think what alot of people are saying is that the heal stick is not the option because it totally removes a key role to the party, which is a "healer type". I believe that pf2 is trying to get away from the one man army and be more team oreinted...and that means party roles.

[graystone]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

You could start by not responding to peoples unhappiness with "nothing is wrong with the game its surely the players who are wrong"

"Bulk is bad and needs to go away because my 8 STR Alchemist cant carry his equipment & 15 other things without being encumbered."

This is no different, you're actively choosing to leave your Cha at a negative score and you complain about the drawbacks.

Having a Character die because of poor rolls is one thing and it feels bad that I'll admit, but when the player knowingly chose to endanger the PC by relying on luck in order to use a Healing Potion... that on the player, not the system.

I agree it's like the bulk issue. For me, it's be like out of the blue saying heavy armor and heavy shields now require a 14 intelligence and fighters and paladin players complaining they have to spend the extra points to the basic functions of the game and their expected equipment. Or wizards spell books suddenly upped to 6 bulk and every wizard now needs a 14 strength.

From my perspective, if the game expects everyone st start with a 14 stats, you should JUST start with the and then make your character. This illusion of choice is annoying.

[Ryan Freire]

graystone wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

You could start by not responding to peoples unhappiness with "nothing is wrong with the game its surely the players who are wrong"

"Bulk is bad and needs to go away because my 8 STR Alchemist cant carry his equipment & 15 other things without being encumbered."

This is no different, you're actively choosing to leave your Cha at a negative score and you complain about the drawbacks.

Having a Character die because of poor rolls is one thing and it feels bad that I'll admit, but when the player knowingly chose to endanger the PC by relying on luck in order to use a Healing Potion... that on the player, not the system.

I agree it's like the bulk issue. For me, it's be like out of the blue saying heavy armor and heavy shields now require a 14 intelligence and fighters and paladin players complaining they have to spend the extra points to the basic functions of the game and their expected equipment. Or wizards spell books suddenly upped to 6 bulk and every wizard now needs a 14 strength.

From my perspective, if the game expects everyone st start with a 14 stats, you should JUST start with the and then make your character. This illusion of choice is annoying.

The game also doesn't work if you dont maximize your main stats