“If this were the final version of the game, what would I house rule and why?”


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Envoy's Alliance

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This is the question I want to take the time to answer. I will do my best to format this post in a way that is easy to read and fulfills its purpose. Some of these issues and solutions stem from my own frustrations, others come from frustrations of my players. You (players, GMs, and designers) may not agree with everything I have on this list, but as far as I can tell they address theming or design issues I have with the game in its current iteration. Without further ado:

1. Resonance and Magic Items

Honestly, I love the resonance system as a concept, but there are major flaws in its implementation that I wish to see ironed out before the final game. Most of it comes down to the need to track multiple resource pools unnecessarily.

a. Consumables and charge based magical items no longer cost resonance


  • Alchemical Consumables Still Cost Resonance (see below with the alchemist)

Problem: The usage of consumable magic items exacts a double toll on its users. The user must spend resonance to activate it, and spend irretrievable gold to acquire it.

Wands no longer have charges (and as such should maybe cost more)

Problem: The resonance system offers a way for the system to move away from having to track the charge levels of individual items by and large. For the purpose of healing, a wand of heal (2) heals 3 times as much per resonance point as a wand of heal (1). Players should need no further incentive to invest in the stronger item at that point. I believe the charges are wholly superfluous.

Staves can be invested in multiple times per day, (and now takes 10 minutes?)


  • Casting from a staff still costs both resonance and charges (they are the sole exception to the rule about charges)
  • There is now room for a staff user's feat -- Staff Savant: You can charge a staff with 3 actions.

Problem: When comparing and contrasting wands and staves, there are three major differences:


  • Staves must first be invested to be used, as such they cost more.
  • Staves are flexible, they contain multiple spells.
  • Wands are unlimited in their uses per day (so long as you have resonance and sufficient charges or better yet charges are removed from them)

So, the main draw of staves is they're flexible, but the main cost is the increased resonance point cost to use them and the day-long downtime between recharging them. But is there any benefit to this time restriction? I'd argue that if a user has resonance and an hour (or 10 minutes, or whatever) to spare, they should be able to invest again to use their staff further.

Now, you may be wondering why I want to remove charges from wands but not staves. Well, the staff charge system serves a major purpose in my view: First, it increases the opportunity cost of staves, and second it leaves in a system for managing multiple different spells of varying levels within the same item while keeping the same resonance point cost. Is it perfect? No. But I like the implementation myself.

Resonance is now flat 3+level instead of cha+level


  • Alchemists still add int to their resonance pool

Problem: It appears resonance is this universally useful tool, yet aside from the fact that pathfinder 1 had use magic device as a charisma skill, there's little reason for it to be tied to charisma (other than perhaps that charisma should be more useful). I could go either way on this one, except for that alchemists should add their intelligence to their pool, not simply substitute the other bonus.

Trinkets are no longer consumable and their cost increases appropriately (becoming the “permanent level 1 magic item” which no one can seem to find)

Problem: Trinkets... are a neat idea I guess. The problem I find is the combination of them being consumable, being expensive for a level one player but being useless beyond that point makes me wonder if they would be better employed as permanent items, like weaker versions of higher level items. Consider, the potency crystal. In RAW, for one resonance, you can activate it as a free action for 2gp to get a single strike in where that weapon is enhanced to a +1 weapon. If, however, the player spent 50% more money for a scroll of magic weapon and handed it to a wizard, they'd get a potential 10-30 more strikes out of that gold. The difference is staggering. Trinkets could remain the level 1 boon they are but simply not be consumed on use. They're still hugely expensive per resonance, but in this way they'd be attractive.

The vast majority of items which have an activate action with a limit of “once per day” no longer have that restriction.

Problem: Again, we see the resonance system existing alongside another system of tracking which we shouldn't need. Again, I love resonance, so let me use it! Is it really game breaking to be able to use the Cape of the Mountebank (for example) multiple times a day? As a GM, "Hey, it's your level 11 magical artifact!" -- I'd remove this restriction.

2. Spell Points
Oof. Now that we have the big one out of the way, let's hit this fairly small one. First, a lot of powers seem pretty weak generally. I'd like to see their effectiveness normalized at least a little (buffed generally, I'd hope). That's a bigger problem than I can house rule though, and something that I consider more of a content issue than a foundational issue. Instead I'll focus on a bit more of a glaring issue.


  • You gain power points equal to key ability modifier plus level/2
  • Additional powers do not increase pool

Problem: With powers generally being as weak as they are, and spell points being as scarce as they are, one starts to question why the system is there in the first place. At the very least, players should be gaining spell points as they level.

Side note: Further down, I have some editorial suggestions about spell points and powers.

3. Feats
The purpose of this section is to address the concerns of myself and my players who feel their options are too limited in their build craft, particularly at lower levels. This is especially potent from players of Pathfinder 1E, who feel that their options are greatly reduced from what they had before even with similar builds (like a mostly-core level 16 paladin). These adjustments broaden those horizons some while hopefully not causing uncalled for player power creep.

You gain an additional class feat at level 1 and every 3 levels after (4, 7 etc)

Problem: In PF1, classes gained access to many flavorful class features. In PF2, many of these appear to be moved out into feats (which I think is very fun!)

The problem seems to be that in PF2, all characters gain a feat every other level but get fewer class features. This hurts the fighter most of all, as they went from some features and a feat almost every level to about the same amount of features (plus flexibility) and a feat every other level.

With multiclasses and prestige classes being feats now, the problem is exacerbated, where cool builds don't open up until really late, most notably the theurge (caster with 2 spell lists).

1 more feat per 3 levels will help here, without massively buffing PC power (and thus forcing a rebalance of the entire system).

The numbers could be tweaked, certainly. Perhaps 1 feat at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 instead. The point is I think more class feats are called for.

You now begin play with 2 ancestry feats at level 1

Problem: A lot of ink has been spilled here so I'll be brief. Half-Orc/Elf feats feel weird because options don't open up until much later. Feels odd that you'd only unlock feats of your own blood and ancestry until you're several levels into your adventuring career.

All classes gain access to the following feats as class feats


  • General Focus -- You gain a general feat
  • Skill Focus -- You gain a skill feat
  • Skill Training -- You gain a skill increase

Problem: 9 times out of 10, these skill feats and general feats are not as good compared to a class feat, but sometimes taking one opens up build options which would be otherwise unavailable until much later due to the slower rollout of these general feats. Or maybe you just wanna take hefty hauler at level 1.

4. Skills
Get ready. Most of this section stems from perhaps a sense of unmet expectations. The idea of "trained skill unlocks" was very exciting to me, and so I was pretty disappointed to see that so few of them got impactful, exciting unlocks. I'll lay out a list of feats which I believe should become trained skill unlocks, but won't go into detail on most of them. Those that didn't get an addition were ones which I felt didn't need it.

Several skill feats have become trained skill unlocks. (Recognize Spell, battle medic, etc) -- Backgrounds that would have granted this feat now grant a different feat


  • Acrobatics -- Cat Fall
  • Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion -- Recognize Spell
  • Athletics -- Quick Jump
  • Crafting -- Quick Repair
  • Deception -- None Sidenote: Ya'll feint is really good. Read that business.
  • Diplomacy -- Hobnobber
  • Intimidation -- Intimidating Glare
  • Lore -- ??? Sidenote: I'm not really sure what purpose lore serves in the game at this stage. I don't know how to approach it as a GM, and I don't know why I would want it as a player (unless the adventure told my GM to tell me to take it.)
  • Medicine -- Battle Medic Sidenote: Nonmagical healing is so exceedingly rare, despite it being needed more than ever that gating this ability off behind a feat feels really strange.
  • Performance -- Fascinating Performance
  • Society -- Sign Language
  • Stealth -- Experienced Smuggler
  • Survival -- None
  • Thievery -- None

All classes gain 2 floating signature skill selections
Problem: Many of my players have complained to me about not being able to select skills as signature that they would like to be able to use. They question why their class should entirely dictate what skills they can master or become legendary in.

5. Spells

The difference in power for any caster between PF1 and PF2 is stark. Again, the underlying systems I think are great, but the initial content pass on the playtest spells combined with the reduced meaning of what "full spell progression" is too much. I have some minor suggestions for at least addressing some easy problems.

Spells per day progression goes from 0 to 2 to 4 instead of 0 to 2 to 3 (+1 for sorcerer)

Problem: At the very least, it's odd that every other level one gains access to one fewer spell. The reduction in the amount of spells which can be prepared per level down to 3 is again in stark contrast from the 6 or 7 one could prepare from PF1e. Now, I'll agree that casters were far better than martials in 1e as the next guy, but again I think this is too far.

Sorcerers can heighten lower level spells spontaneously without knowing the higher level variant
Problem: The fact that sorcerers have to learn the higher level variant just feels like a slap in the face to a class that historically has been the weaker cousin to its prepared counterpart. I'd remove this restriction.

More Heightening
It's a cool concept, but it'd be a shame to see all these core, staple spells not gain heightening capabilities and fall by the wayside as splatbooks come in full of heightening capabilities. Not all of them need heightening, mind, but there are a number of easy ones, like magic weapon! (example: Heighten +2, increase the potency by another +1)

6. Classes

I'll only be able to comment on classes I've been exposed to so far. This means: No druids, no barbs, no rangers. That said, I'll do my best with what I have.

Sidenote: Clerics. Clerics are really good. But I don't think they're *too* good, I just think their relative strength is indicative of a larger problem. I think rather than bumping the cleric down, the healing capability of any party should be increased, whether that's by reducing access to non-magical healing options, giving druids and other casters better access to healing abilities (better goodberries with the above spell point change, perhaps?), and/or increasing the availability of healing via magic items. This could also perhaps be solved with this "healing surge" system I've heard about from dnd5e, or the stamina system from starfinder. I'm down for anything!

Alchemist


  • Items with the infused trait do not cost resonance to use for anyone.
  • Items made from the quick alchemy feat remain usable until the next time the alchemist does their daily preparation (or at the same time as advanced alchemy items becoming inert)

Problem: Consider, the alchemist as a support. A supportive alchemist is hardly any more than a drain on their party's resources. The cleric need not use its ally's resonance when healing, nor need the wizard do the same when applying haste. Why then should the alchemist, who spent their own resonance creating these alchemical items, force their allies to spend yet more resonance to use them? It's a strange situation which makes the class at the very least seem unwelcome in the group.

Further, the efficient alchemy feature allows an alchemist at preparation to make items at double the efficiency per resonance than quick alchemy. Therefore, holding your resonance to use it for quick alchemy is for those emergency situations where you "have just the thing for this" and you'll whip it up. The extremely limited duration by which that item is usable makes for annoying action economy management, especially when trying to make something like an antidote.

Wizard


  • The wand from makeshift wand feat has 3 charges but costs no resonance to use

(This one mostly just keeps up with the above changes to wands)

Monk


  • Monastic Weaponry is a level 1 free class feature

Problem: Most monk weapons are at best "okay", gating them behind a feat makes the option completely unattractive.

Sorcerer


  • Bloodline powers are now optional (they become feats which can be selected, with appropriate prerequisites)

Problem: Much ink has been spilled here as well, so I will simply offer my +1 to this minor change.

7. Actions
Last, but not least in my house rules is actions. Where I have one minor change:

The interact action allows the character to interact once with each hand (sheathe 2 weapons, draw a weapon and open a door, etc)

Problem: As one of my players walked through the dungeon with 2 hands free, he looked at me in confusion when I said he had to spend 2 actions to draw both of his weapons. This seemed strange to both of us. You have 2 hands, and 2 weapons, just pull both of them out at once!

That's all for now! Later I'll do a post on what I perceive as severe core content problems and some editorial changes which should make the rule book easier to navigate.


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Outside the playtest, for some home-games, we are currently going with:

+Level is omitted.

Touch Armour Class is omitted.

Spell Attacks are made with your spellcasting ability score (Int for Wizard, etc).

Item (magic) bonus for weapons and extra damage dice is omitted.

Potency Runes are omitted.

Trained Proficiency Bonus/Extra Weapon Damage Dice by Level: Armour Class, Weapon Attacks, Saving Throws (and DC), and Spell Rolls (and DC).

Level
2-4: +1/2 x weapon damage dice
5-8: +2/3 x weapon damage dice
9-12: +3/4 x weapon damage dice
13-16: +4/5 x weapon damage dice
17-20: +5/6 x weapon damage dice


Vic Ferrari wrote:

Outside the playtest, for some home-games, we are currently going with:

+Level is omitted.

Touch Armour Class is omitted.

Spell Attacks are made with your spellcasting ability score (Int for Wizard, etc).

Item (magic) bonus for weapons and extra damage dice is omitted.

Potency Runes are omitted.

Trained Proficiency Bonus/Extra Weapon Damage Dice by Level: Armour Class, Weapon Attacks, Saving Throws (and DC), and Spell Rolls (and DC).

Level
2-4: +1/2 x weapon damage dice
5-8: +2/3 x weapon damage dice
9-12: +3/4 x weapon damage dice
13-16: +4/5 x weapon damage dice
17-20: +5/6 x weapon damage dice

so you don't gain either attack bonus or skills or base saves through levels? I mean I don't like the +1 for everything because it creates problems in the math for me, but not having anything but proficiency to scale the numbers with level is worse than 5e.


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-2 to all monster attack rolls
-2 to all monster skills for monsters below level 13, -3 for monsters above

Possibly -1 or -2 to monster saving throws and AC

Double shield hardness (since hardness no longer reduces damage taken by shields)

Riding an animal without the Ride feat/that's not an Animal Companion doesn't fatigue you in exploration mode.

Let Animal Companions/Familiars be capable of functioning semi-independently in exploration mode - follow a given command until it's finished rather than following it for one turn and then needing the command again.

Some homebrew animal training options (there currently are none and there's no simple way to just house rule it).

Mount trait on more of the monsters.

Some homebrew version of Smite, Divine Grace and Retributive Strike switch places, Retributive strike allows a free step before the attack and works with bows, Aura of Justice no longer tied to Retributive Strike (maybe tied to smite?), and a feat to give Paladins more reactions. This should "fix" Paladins with the least amount of work

Paladins can be any good (with slight changes to the 'respect lawful authority' part of their code to make sense for NG and CG Paladins).

Give the ranger access to basically all the fighter bow feats. They should get unique stuff, but at least this would allow bow rangers to exist properly.

Clerics can be 1 step within alignment provided their reasoning is good if it's not one of the listed alignments.

Possibly make a weaker version of the Cleric channel available as a Cleric Archetype feat. I'd prefer the other healing focused classes to get their own thing, but this would be easier/faster to implement. But this way all classes could provide adequate healing.

Possibly some homebrew multiclass archetypes (at it's limited to just the 4 right now).

Possibly give monks more class feats (or roll some of the feats into the base class) as it's sad they've got to essentially pick between 'classic monk situational utility' option and 'really useful' option every level.


necromental wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:

Outside the playtest, for some home-games, we are currently going with:

+Level is omitted.

Touch Armour Class is omitted.

Spell Attacks are made with your spellcasting ability score (Int for Wizard, etc).

Item (magic) bonus for weapons and extra damage dice is omitted.

Potency Runes are omitted.

Trained Proficiency Bonus/Extra Weapon Damage Dice by Level: Armour Class, Weapon Attacks, Saving Throws (and DC), and Spell Rolls (and DC).

Level
2-4: +1/2 x weapon damage dice
5-8: +2/3 x weapon damage dice
9-12: +3/4 x weapon damage dice
13-16: +4/5 x weapon damage dice
17-20: +5/6 x weapon damage dice

so you don't gain either attack bonus or skills or base saves through levels?

That's exactly what you gain, through Trained proficiency (E, M, and L are gravy, extra +1, and unlock stuff, as usual), the maths work out the same, it just assumes at 17th level you have +5 armour and weapon (as long as you have Trained proficiency), it's baked into advancement.


The four uncommon exotic weapons become uncommon martial, because short of guns, there's no reason for any weapons to be exotic, now that we have common/uncommon.

On a related note, common/uncommon is strictly at the setting level, and can vary from location to location. For example, the dwarven waraxe is common in the Five Kings Mountains, but uncommon in Kyonin, while the elven curve blade is common in Kyonin, but uncommon in the Five Kings Mountains. Elves with the Weapon Familiarity feat don't have access to some secret black market where they can get a curve blade anywhere.

I'm still tweaking the exact numbers, but everyone is trained in all simple weapons, then gets to pick some number of weapon groups to also be trained in. This ranges from the Monk getting 0 extra to the wizard and sorcerer getting 1, to the fighter getting a decent 6 or 7, including 2 at expert level.

The three fighter abilities about weapon proficiency let you pick a good 6 or 7 groups to advance your proficiency in by one step.

Weapon Proficiency as a feat lets you advance one from untrained to trained or trained to expert.

And anyone can unlock critical specializations by reaching expert in a group.

Envoy's Alliance

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Outside the playtest, for some home-games, we are currently going with:

+Level is omitted.

Trained Proficiency Bonus/Extra Weapon Damage Dice by Level: Armour Class, Weapon Attacks, Saving Throws (and DC), and Spell Rolls (and DC).

Level
2-4: +1/2 x weapon damage dice
5-8: +2/3 x weapon damage dice
9-12: +3/4 x weapon damage dice
13-16: +4/5 x weapon damage dice
17-20: +5/6 x weapon damage dice0

After having played a certain adventure with a certain creature 2 levels higher than the party (no spoils), I've come to appreciate the level growth quite a bit. You know that old problem with the pathfinder action economy making it so single boss enemies die just by virtue of not having enough actions to keep up with a party of 4 or 5?

Well... their higher level attack bonus combined with the "10 over DC crits" rule makes such encounters VERY dangerous, and I think in a good way. Personally, I like the level growth in the proficiency system very much.


Here are the ones I'd use.

1. Bound
Remove the +lvl mechanic from everything. Adjust static DCs etc as detailed here. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8

2. Magic Weapons- Extra Damage Dice
Remove extra damage dice from Magic Weapons and instead grant them automatically at levels 4/8/12/16/20.

3. Magic Shield- Potency Runes
Let armor potency runes affect magic shields. But, instead of granting a bonus to AC, instead have them increase the number of dents the shield can take before being broken and its hardness by 1 for each degree of potency. Remove Sturdy Shield. Potency can apply to other magical shields.

3. Underlying Math for PC and Monster Skills

3A. Monster Perception and Skills
The underlying math for Monster skills has some issues, essentially every monster named skill assume the equivalent of magic item enhancement. I'd differentiate into a tiers of monster proficiency. It would result in many monster skills, outside of an iconic or specialized skill for that monster, coming down a handful of points.

3B. If Unbound- 10-2 Table
If you are not removing the +lvl mechanic and making the changes above, then the faulty underlying math of the 10-2 table which assumes and necessitates magical skill items needs to be addressed. Essentially you create a new Low DC track between Trivial and Low. Rename Low to High. Severe is the average between the existing High and Severe tracks. Extreme and Trivial remain the same.

4. Sorcerer Feats
Turn Bloodline powers into a feat chain and grant Sorcerers feats at those levels instead.

5. Heightening and Prepared Casters
Let spontaneous casters heighten any spell they know. Let Prepared casters cast any spell of a level they prepared at that level, ie prepare Fireball Haste and Dispel Magic at 3rd level and they can cast Fireball 3x or Haste 3x, or one of each etc but cannot cast Fireball with a 4th level slot unless they prepared a 4th level fireball.

6. Longsword/Bastard Sword
Bastard Sword is Two-Hand D10. Gains Versatile P. Remove Longsword.

7. Class Skills
Classes all gain at least 5+Int starting skills. Classes gain a Skill increase at every level 2+.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

At this point, if this were the final version of the game, I'd just keep playing 1e and cancel my subs (except the AP).

There's no reason to play a game that's less fun with less options and requires more work than the one I have right now.

-Skeld


Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:

Outside the playtest, for some home-games, we are currently going with:

+Level is omitted.

Trained Proficiency Bonus/Extra Weapon Damage Dice by Level: Armour Class, Weapon Attacks, Saving Throws (and DC), and Spell Rolls (and DC).

Level
2-4: +1/2 x weapon damage dice
5-8: +2/3 x weapon damage dice
9-12: +3/4 x weapon damage dice
13-16: +4/5 x weapon damage dice
17-20: +5/6 x weapon damage dice0

After having played a certain adventure with a certain creature 2 levels higher than the party (no spoils), I've come to appreciate the level growth quite a bit. You know that old problem with the pathfinder action economy making it so single boss enemies die just by virtue of not having enough actions to keep up with a party of 4 or 5?

Well... their higher level attack bonus combined with the "10 over DC crits" rule makes such encounters VERY dangerous, and I think in a good way. Personally, I like the level growth in the proficiency system very much.

Yes, leveraging the 4-tiers of success action with the +Level deal (I wonder which came first?), I am generally not a fan of crit-fishing/spikes, and fumbles; I play with and without +Level, I prefer the experience/feel of the latter (opens up the threat range of monsters).


Assurance comes with training.
Trained characters can succeed at DC 5 checks without rolling unless suffering from some physical or mental malady
Same for Expert at DC 10 check
Master for DC 15
Legendary for DC 20

The return of Take 10 and Take 20
For characters Trained or better in a skill in non stressful situations.

Take 10 takes no extra time. Take 20 takes 10 minutes though.

Monks get weapons Level 1.

Characters get two ancestry feats Level 1.
One ancestry feat Level 2.
The rest as usual

Master skill training skill feat
Req: Must be Level 11. Choose a skill you're expert in. You improve to Master.

Legendary skill training skill feat
Req: Must be level 17. Choose a skill you're master in. You improve to Legendary.

I like plus Level. It allows for higher level characters to really rip through lower level monsters that they used to have trouble with.


Also I've never been a caster and I'm sad 2e spellcasting didn't become simpler. (I do feel it needed a nerf though which is accomplished.)

Might be naive but I don't see why prepared casters can't undercast their prepared spells at will (using up a prepared lower level spell in the process) while spontaneous casters can't heighten their spells at will (using up a higher level spell slot).

Also I'd rename Spell Points to Power Points and get rid of ability scores (ability modifiers can go up by 0.5s as usual).

Envoy's Alliance

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Azih wrote:
Also I'd rename Spell Points to Power Points and get rid of ability scores (ability modifiers can go up by 0.5s as usual).

I didn't get around to formatting my suggestions for editorial changes, but spoiler alert you got two of the big ones right there ;)

Envoy's Alliance

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Skeld wrote:

At this point, if this were the final version of the game, I'd just keep playing 1e and cancel my subs (except the AP).

There's no reason to play a game that's less fun with less options and requires more work than the one I have right now.

-Skeld

Idk, I house ruled the hell out of 1e because I had so many problems with it but liked the content breadth. 2e has a much better foundation on which to build content but has some rough edges which can be smoothed out with relatively simple house rules, and the content will come with time. If it released as is, I'd be disappointed but I'd still play it with these house rules.

I get the sense I'm a bit in the minority on that though.


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Zman0 wrote:

1. Bound

Remove the +lvl mechanic from everything. Adjust static DCs etc as detailed here. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8

I'm against bounded accuracy. It might be nice from a player perspective, not having to worry as much about high numbers, but it's horrible for designers. I've tried converting 3.PF homebrew and 3pp to 5e, and let me tell you, there is no design space available. For example, BAB goes from +0.5 to +10 or +1 to +20, so there was enough design space for Spheres of Power to introduce 1/2 and 3/4 Caster Level. But even if BAB had been like saving throws, there's still room for 0+1/3*Lv, 1+2/5*Lv, and 2+1/2*Lv. Meanwhile, your proficiency bonus in 5e ranges from +2 to +6. There isn't any room to add things like Mageknights, who are better at landing spells with full BAB, but who also have weaker spells with 1/2 CL.

Or with armor, the only parameters are AC, weight, type, and whether or not you get disadvantage when sneaking. Even max Dex is a strict function of armor type, with light armor being unlimited (or +10 because of system-wide bounds), medium armor being max +2, and heavy armor being max +0. I tried converting d20 Despot's armor to 5e for a friend, and Hide presented a challenge. He made Hide have a variable bonus and be dirt cheap, but strictly inferior to other armor with the same AC bonus. But the only way I could think of to represent that in 5e was re-dividing armor into Ultralight (+10 Dex), Light (+4 Dex), Heavy (+2 Dex), and Superheavy (+0 Dex), then saying Hide counts as one armor type heavier.


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RazarTuk wrote:
Zman0 wrote:

1. Bound

Remove the +lvl mechanic from everything. Adjust static DCs etc as detailed here. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8

I'm against bounded accuracy. It might be nice from a player perspective, not having to worry as much about high numbers, but it's horrible for designers. I've tried converting 3.PF homebrew and 3pp to 5e, and let me tell you, there is no design space available. For example, BAB goes from +0.5 to +10 or +1 to +20, so there was enough design space for Spheres of Power to introduce 1/2 and 3/4 Caster Level. But even if BAB had been like saving throws, there's still room for 0+1/3*Lv, 1+2/5*Lv, and 2+1/2*Lv. Meanwhile, your proficiency bonus in 5e ranges from +2 to +6. There isn't any room to add things like Mageknights, who are better at landing spells with full BAB, but who also have weaker spells with 1/2 CL.

Or with armor, the only parameters are AC, weight, type, and whether or not you get disadvantage when sneaking. Even max Dex is a strict function of armor type, with light armor being unlimited (or +10 because of system-wide bounds), medium armor being max +2, and heavy armor being max +0. I tried converting d20 Despot's armor to 5e for a friend, and Hide presented a challenge. He made Hide have a variable bonus and be dirt cheap, but strictly inferior to other armor with the same AC bonus. But the only way I could think of to represent that in 5e was re-dividing armor into Ultralight (+10 Dex), Light (+4 Dex), Heavy (+2 Dex), and Superheavy (+0 Dex), then saying Hide counts as one armor type heavier.

Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.

Envoy's Alliance

Zman0 wrote:
Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.

One of the designers said something about off-the-cuff monster creation is a lot easier with the +lvl growth, so I'll reserve final judgment until those are released. So far, again, I still like it from both sides of the table.


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Skeld wrote:

At this point, if this were the final version of the game, I'd just keep playing 1e and cancel my subs (except the AP).

There's no reason to play a game that's less fun with less options and requires more work than the one I have right now.

-Skeld

Pretty much this. If/when I get tired of 1e, I'd probably switch to Mutants and Masterminds 2 or 3, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2, or a system I haven't played before.


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Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:
Zman0 wrote:
Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.
One of the designers said something about off-the-cuff monster creation is a lot easier with the +lvl growth, so I'll reserve final judgment until those are released. So far, again, I still like it from both sides of the table.

Monster creation will be roughly the same actually. But, monster modification on the fly, ie scaling a monster up or down to serve a purpose is much simpler with the +lvl mechanic. It is really the biggest advantage of it. Though, both will be roughly equally viable using something like their Elite/Weak mechanic. It just is a bit more fiddly for Bound, but the basic Elite/Weak template will look similar. There are other considerations here too, with the wider range of viable opposition in Bound you will often have less need for that kind of on the fly scaling to its a catch 22 etc. etc.


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I've considered this, and the fact is if these were the final rules, I simply wouldn't play... There are better systems out there without as many built-in flaws as are present currently in PF2e. Honestly, I'd probably try doing AD&D5e with some of the 2e concepts (3 action system, critical thresholds...).

Right now, my biggest issue with the system which likely requires heavy reworking:
1. Proficiency under/misused: Proficiency for all but skills is boring, it has no effect outside of a minor bonus. This would likely be solved via #2 below.
2. Class-gated combat styles/spell metamagic: likely solved by abstracting these out and making them available via feats gated by proficiency (see also proficiency problems in #3).
3. Access to proficiency class-gated: Likely fixed by adding general feats that increase weapon/spell proficiency by one step, to a maximum bound by character level.
4. AC inflation/second attack success rates *far* too low: Your first attack should have a >50% chance to hit if you're fighting using your focussed fighting style. It doesn't now. Likely fixed by adjusting Armor bonuses to AC and having monsters come in line with this.

Maybe after *all* of these changes, or something suitably similar to open up character design and make combats more than a festival of whiffs, and make criticals *actually* happen on more than just a 20 when you're fighting a challenging boss, maybe then I'd play the game. I'll even say I probably would, as the underlying combat mechanics are *very good*, but yeah, the rest of the system is a step backwards. 5e got this right, 2e didn't...

NOTE: I'm continuing to playtest largely due to product loyalty at this point/wanting to provide good feedback. I honestly hope Paizo fixes these issues, but they don't seem to have presented a good direction in their initial release, so I find it unlikely they'll be able to remedy this in any final version, particularly with the timeline they've set for themselves.


Zman0 wrote:
RazarTuk wrote:
Zman0 wrote:

1. Bound

Remove the +lvl mechanic from everything. Adjust static DCs etc as detailed here. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8

I'm against bounded accuracy. It might be nice from a player perspective, not having to worry as much about high numbers, but it's horrible for designers. I've tried converting 3.PF homebrew and 3pp to 5e, and let me tell you, there is no design space available. For example, BAB goes from +0.5 to +10 or +1 to +20, so there was enough design space for Spheres of Power to introduce 1/2 and 3/4 Caster Level. But even if BAB had been like saving throws, there's still room for 0+1/3*Lv, 1+2/5*Lv, and 2+1/2*Lv. Meanwhile, your proficiency bonus in 5e ranges from +2 to +6. There isn't any room to add things like Mageknights, who are better at landing spells with full BAB, but who also have weaker spells with 1/2 CL.

Or with armor, the only parameters are AC, weight, type, and whether or not you get disadvantage when sneaking. Even max Dex is a strict function of armor type, with light armor being unlimited (or +10 because of system-wide bounds), medium armor being max +2, and heavy armor being max +0. I tried converting d20 Despot's armor to 5e for a friend, and Hide presented a challenge. He made Hide have a variable bonus and be dirt cheap, but strictly inferior to other armor with the same AC bonus. But the only way I could think of to represent that in 5e was re-dividing armor into Ultralight (+10 Dex), Light (+4 Dex), Heavy (+2 Dex), and Superheavy (+0 Dex), then saying Hide counts as one armor type heavier.

Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.

Not really. TEML at least leaves more room than +2 to +6, extra bonuses can be more than just "Roll twice, take the better", and with armor, you can independently change AC bonus, TAC bonus, max dex, ACP, type (light, medium, heavy), and traits.


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RazarTuk wrote:
Zman0 wrote:
RazarTuk wrote:
Zman0 wrote:

1. Bound

Remove the +lvl mechanic from everything. Adjust static DCs etc as detailed here. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8

I'm against bounded accuracy. It might be nice from a player perspective, not having to worry as much about high numbers, but it's horrible for designers. I've tried converting 3.PF homebrew and 3pp to 5e, and let me tell you, there is no design space available. For example, BAB goes from +0.5 to +10 or +1 to +20, so there was enough design space for Spheres of Power to introduce 1/2 and 3/4 Caster Level. But even if BAB had been like saving throws, there's still room for 0+1/3*Lv, 1+2/5*Lv, and 2+1/2*Lv. Meanwhile, your proficiency bonus in 5e ranges from +2 to +6. There isn't any room to add things like Mageknights, who are better at landing spells with full BAB, but who also have weaker spells with 1/2 CL.

Or with armor, the only parameters are AC, weight, type, and whether or not you get disadvantage when sneaking. Even max Dex is a strict function of armor type, with light armor being unlimited (or +10 because of system-wide bounds), medium armor being max +2, and heavy armor being max +0. I tried converting d20 Despot's armor to 5e for a friend, and Hide presented a challenge. He made Hide have a variable bonus and be dirt cheap, but strictly inferior to other armor with the same AC bonus. But the only way I could think of to represent that in 5e was re-dividing armor into Ultralight (+10 Dex), Light (+4 Dex), Heavy (+2 Dex), and Superheavy (+0 Dex), then saying Hide counts as one armor type heavier.

Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.
Not really. TEML at least leaves more room than +2 to +6, extra bonuses can be more than just "Roll twice, take the better", and with armor, you can...

So, then you rescind your early argument in its entirety criticizing the removal of +lvl and making P2 Bound?

Silver Crusade

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1) all casters become arcanist style. Can heighten on the fly. Sorcerers can use their limited special ability to heighten to raise a spell one level higher than effective than they can cast.

2) all players get 3 Ancestry Feats at 1st and when they would get an Ancestry feat they get an extra class feat

3) remove magic weapon bonus dice and make it tied to level 4/8/12/16/20

4) add heal to occult list

5) simple hand waive the lawful good restriction on paladins. Any pc playing a non LG paladin I would refer them code wise to the code of conduct found in the 1e Champions series of splat books

6) make up new Mc Feats and homebrew prestige chains

But I'm pretty happy over all with it. I think the core math is better than most. I like dangerous combat and the economy reminds me of what was right with 4e without the duldrum of the power system

Ps. Make a hero lab style character sheet... The old 1e hero lab sheet is simple but it's so easy to read.


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I probably wouldn't bother at this point. There's too many things I'd need to change, and the core mechanic is one of those things. I'm starting to think the game isn't intended for how my group plays. There are a handful of things I plan on back porting to PF1, so it's not a total wash.

This should be great for PFS players though, and I'm happy that they will be in a different system from PF1. I'd be quite happy if both systems continued their development.


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I'd pick and choose a few things out of 2e and then port them into 1st. And then play 1st. There are APs for years out there.

I might even look at 2e APs because the Golarion story is strong enough for me. Then I'd convert them to 1st for my purposes.

As-is, 2e is not my game. It has some good ideas. But that's not enough to entice me to play.


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1) Use PF1 XP system

2) Use PF1 Hero Points system

3) Use PF1 DCs for stuff like climbing, fog, doors, locks, just so there would actually be an established reality for the world and I don't have to stare at that table on p.337 and think about it everytime somebody tries to do something

4) Keep the math but cap the +1/level by proficiency (i.e. expert proficiency can't get you higher than +10, master +15 etc.) so that high-level wizards don't have the BAB of fighters and the AC of naked monks. The proficiencies are a really good idea, but the +1/level, not so much.

5) Continue to use useful rules like Sunder, Coup-de-grace, +1 for height advantage etc. etc.

6) Do something to ensure that super-nerfed conditions like paralyzed, drained, are still scary instead of a minor inconvenience

7) Resonance, dying rules, I have no idea but something needs to change

8) Move some class feats into general feats. Allow feats so anyone can pick up expert, master and legendary expertise in a weapon, skill, armor, whatever. (In the playtest, I was super annoyed that the only way my druid could even be trained in the use of the trident--the holy weapon of her god!--was to multi class into fighter.)

9) Fold some existing skill feats into rewards for achieving higher levels of proficiency in a skill.

10) In general, proficiencies of all sorts need to be more important and exciting than your character's level. Proficiencies are one of the best thing this game has going, but they hardly matter at all right now. Achieving Master in a weapon should automatically (without having to take a feat) open up all sorts fo fighting possibilities heretofore impossible. Likewise, Religion. Likewise, Nature. Likewise Mastery of chainmail, for instance. Likewise, Master reflex saves.

Being expert, master, legendary, should be an achievement and all sorts of new possibilities should open up when I get there.


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ANebulousMistress wrote:
I might even look at 2e APs because the Golarion story is strong enough for me. Then I'd convert them to 1st for my purposes.

I'd have to do that anyway. I recently switched over to Spherefinder. (1e, but replace all the classes with Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might)

Liberty's Edge

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I also would bring back "take 10" pretty fast (and get rid of most of the multiple-roll skill checks, too), but the biggest house rule I'm going with when I start in on a true homegame and not a playtest is:

The GM very rarely rolls any dice.

Not only do I hate the idea of Secret checks, but with the rare exception (mostly for things like Trapspotter/Trapfinding) I don't want to roll against the players, at all. You want to fireball a monster? Roll a spell attack against its save+10. You are getting attacked by a monster? Roll your defense (basically AC-10). You're hurt? Well, roll the damage against you, too.

The players get to control very little in the game and the idea that I should be busily rolling dice behind the screen and chuckling to myself is a bad old notion that should just die.

I know there are other systems out there that do this (though they have their own problems), but PF2 is pretty easy to accomplish it in with only a few minor tweaks.


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If this were the final version of the game, I wouldn't houserule anything.

I'd just not play it.

I'd stick to playing PF1e, use the Unchained action economy, ABP, and skill unlocks as well as the 3rd party Spheres of Might/Power from Drop Dead Studios. There's nothing I like from 2e that isn't done better with this framework, especially with the unbounded modifiers across same level characters - I actually like that characters of the same level can be radically different in their likelihood to pass or fail certain checks, especially skill checks.


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If I was choosing for the gaming group, put me in the play PF1 camp as well. I would end up house ruling so much stuff...


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If PF2 released as it is now, here are some changes I'd implement as houserules. I haven't test with them, but I would like to see how they play out.

Big system changes:

1. Use 2d10 for rolls:
The crit mechanics in PF2 make crits important, and crit rates are too high when using a 1d20. By using 2d10 for rolls, the crit rates are much more controlled and the average case occurs more often, making rolls more reliable in general. This fixes problems with critfishing, or PCs and monsters spamming their 3rd attacks in hopes of getting a crit, seeing as each attack has at least 5% chance of critting under the old system.

2. Players roll for everything:
Players love rolling dice, and dice love to be rolled. Monsters no longer have bonuses, but all their stats get converted to DCs. A Pit Fiend would have a 45 attack DC, 45 Intimidation DC for example. A level 20 Fighter would have +34 Armor Roll (instead of 44 AC).

This change lets the GM focus on storytelling and setup while letting the players decide their own fate via dice rolls. There's also a player advantage to rolling vs. DCs, since they are now more likely to succeed.

Before: Pit Fiend attacks Fighter, needs a 9 to hit. PC has a 40% chance to not take damage. (28% if rolling 2d10)

After: Pit Fiend attacks Fighter, PC needs an 11 to dodge or 50% chance to not take damage. (55% if rolling 2d10)

A PC trying to dodge has has almost twice as much chance to succeed using 2d10 compared to if the Pit Fiend had attacked. This change, coupled with the change to rolling 2d10 for resolution, makes PCs succeed more often at tasks while keeping crits rare and valuable.

Players roll saving throws as normal, but for spells and abilities that require saving throws, they would roll a check vs. the enemy's defensive DC.

3. Condense defensive stats:
I'd propose changing defenses to just Physical Defense and Mental Defense, but that might be departing too far from Pathfinder. Instead, here's what I would do:

AC -> Defense Save: Dex and/or armour adds to AC
Fortitude Save: The higher mod of Str or Con adds to Fort
Reflex Save: The higher mod of Dex or Int adds to Reflex
Will Save: The higher mod of Wis or Cha adds to Will

I like the way 4e did Fort, Ref, Will and will be porting it into PF2. It also makes sense for Charisma to benefit Will saves, since it represents, among other things, force of will. TAC is gone because it's redundant with Reflex most of the time.

4. Variable attribute for skill/Signature skill change:
5e got 1 thing right when it let you use different stats for skill usage. A menacing Half-Orc Barbarian should be able to rely on his towering physique and bloody greataxe to Intimidate a peasant, not just his winning personality. Within reason, skills may use different attributes for checks, such as Intimidation using Strength.

On a related note, each class gets 2 'free' signature skills they can assign (number of trained skills for each class goes up by 2 to accommodate this).

5. Advantage/Disadvantage:
I like this mechanic from 5e, but there it had the disadvantage (heh) of affecting the die roll too much. With 2d10, advantage means rolling 3d10 and dropping the lowest die, and disadvantage means dropping the highest die.

This mechanic can replace a lot of conditions currently in the system. It works out to be a bit better than a +2 bonus most of the time.

Example: If you hit on a 9, you have a 72% chance to hit, with advantage, the chance to hit becomes 89.4%

If you get a +2 bonus and hit on a 7, you have a 85% chance to hit.
Dice stats can be found here

So things that gave a +2 Circumstance bonus could be replaced by Advantage, and things that gave a -2 Circumstance penalty could be replaced by Disadvantage. It makes conditions a lot easier to grok. Screening can stay the same, because it's just a +1 bonus.

That means a Flat-Footed enemy just gives you advantage to hit their AC, for example.

6. Inherent item bonus:
Magic items should feel special, and not a mandatory requirement. The math in PF2 assumes you need the best appropriate magic item for your level in order to compete with equal level challenges. These changes let you get there automatically, and any magic items just provide gravy on top of what you get.

- Each PC gets a +1 item bonus to weapon and unarmed attacks at levels 4/8/12/16/20. Weapon damage dice increases at the same levels.

- Each PC gets a +1 item bonus to Saves at levels 3/7/11/15/19 (AC is now Defense Save, so it gets counted here too)

- Each PC gets a +1 item bonus to spell attacks at levels 4/12/20. The reason for this will be explained under Spellcasting changes below.

- Proficiency bonus for skills increased. Expert grants +2, Master grants +5, Legendary grants +8. This is basically baking the item bonus to skills into proficiency. It's fine for skills because a PC would usually get an item bonus to a maxed out skill anyway.

- Each minion benefits from the same item bonuses as the PC who commands them. Animal Companion and Summons scale super poorly and this should address that.

Spellcasting:
1. 5e Casting:
Another thing that 5e got right was with regards to how spells are cast. Prepared casters have a list of spells they prepare for the day and can cast any spell from among them using any appropriate spell slot. Spontaneous casters can heighten any spells they know freely.

2. Spell attack rolls:
Touch attacks are gone. Spell attacks now use the caster's spellcasting modifier instead of Str or Dex for to hit. Spells and effects that used to target TAC now target Reflex DC.

Because monster Fort/Ref/Will DCs are lower than AC, casters don't need as much of a scaling item bonus to hit, especially since all casters are legendary with spell rolls, unlike martials.

Equipment:
1. Shields:
Shield Hardness is doubled. A simple change that makes shields more usable.

2. Armour:
Simplified Armour system: individual armors don't exist, just types.

Light Armour: +2 AC, 5 max Dex
Medium Armour: +4 AC, 3 max Dex, -1 ACP
Heavy Armour: +6 AC, 1 max Dex, -3 ACP, -5 ft Speed

Higher quality armour (Expert, Master, Legendary) reduce ACP as normal.

Conclusion:
There are more minor changes I would make to classes, but this post has gone on long enough.

My conclusion is that I like the base idea of PF2, I just think the math needs adjustment, and these houserules are how I would change them. I don't yet know how it works out in real games, but I hope to playtest the changes and see how well it does in actual play.

EDIT: HERO POINTS! An idea I think PF2 should poach from another TTRPG called Unity is the concept of shared Hero Points. Instead of individual points, every PC shares a pool that starts out at X, where X is the number of players. Each time someone gains a Hero Point, it gets added to the pool. Otherwise, Hero Point rules stay the same. This allows for more cooperative storytelling moments, less spotlight hogging, and a tradeoff between rerolling a crucial attack or saving points to potentially cheat death if things go south.


Pramxnim wrote:

1. Use 2d10 for rolls:

The crit mechanics in PF2 make crits important, and crit rates are too high when using a 1d20. By using 2d10 for rolls, the crit rates are much more controlled and the average case occurs more often, making rolls more reliable in general. This fixes problems with critfishing, or PCs and monsters spamming their 3rd attacks in hopes of getting a crit, seeing as each attack has at least 5% chance of critting under the old system.

Yeah, I've argued that PF (both 1e and 2e) work much better as 3d6 systems. This is along those same lines. With 3d6, however, I'd change crit ranges to +/-5 rather than +/-10, and similarly, I'd have advantage/disadvantage (fortune/misfortune) be roll an extra d6 and take the higher/lower of the 4.

EDIT: note that while you might *call* this 2e, it's pretty far from 2e, and is probably *actually* a whole different game :).


tivadar27 wrote:

Yeah, I've argued that PF (both 1e and 2e) work much better as 3d6 systems. This is along those same lines. With 3d6, however, I'd change crit ranges to +/-5 rather than +/-10, and similarly, I'd have advantage/disadvantage (fortune/misfortune) be roll an extra d6 and take the higher/lower of the 4.

EDIT: note that while you might *call* this 2e, it's pretty far from 2e, and is probably *actually* a whole different game :).

Haha yeah, these are more things I want to playtest and see how it goes, rather than what I envision 2E to be like. 2E will end up as whatever the Paizo devs decide, but in writing out these rules, there's a chance something in there gets noticed by a dev.

I also want to write out the rules to see how they look like on paper as well as get feedback. I considered 3d6 before, but the max number being 18 threw me off a bit haha.


The game is pretty good as-is in my book. I would just focus on class balance issues.

1. Healing: This, to me, is the most important change (and the most drastic) since I don't want mandatory clerics. I would remove channel energy and give clerics spontaneous conversion instead (ala 3.x). I would then buff up everyone's healing powers (heal would do like 2d6 per spell level plus spell mod - d4 plus spell mod when you hit an area). Paladin LoH would be at d6 plus Cha, d10 plus Cha with the feat (no channel feat - its silly to have all these LoH and trump them with a channel option). I would then put in some kind of doctor general feat chain (the first obtainable via background) that lets you do limited downtime healing with healing kits and medicine. That way, using spell slots for Heal isnt a waste and the cleric isn't the only viable healer. I would also probably exclude curative magical items from any resonance restrictions. If folks can't survive with all that, dunno what else can be done.

2. Spontaneous Casters: Sorc's would get light armor proficiency so they don't need mage armor. Sorc and Bard would get to heighten spells freely without needing feats. Sorc bloodline stuff should absolutely be option and also way more awesome.

3. Rogues: No dex to damage and I would make their Sneak attack only go off once per turn (maybe up the damage at higher levels - once per turn is fine at lower levels - rogue in one group I Dm for is murdering things too easily, IMHO).

4. Ranger: I would modify his double slice to take advantage of hunt target somehow if someone played one.

5. Dunno, probably other minor class stuff to be dealt with as it comes.


Pramxnim wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:

Yeah, I've argued that PF (both 1e and 2e) work much better as 3d6 systems. This is along those same lines. With 3d6, however, I'd change crit ranges to +/-5 rather than +/-10, and similarly, I'd have advantage/disadvantage (fortune/misfortune) be roll an extra d6 and take the higher/lower of the 4.

EDIT: note that while you might *call* this 2e, it's pretty far from 2e, and is probably *actually* a whole different game :).

Haha yeah, these are more things I want to playtest and see how it goes, rather than what I envision 2E to be like. 2E will end up as whatever the Paizo devs decide, but in writing out these rules, there's a chance something in there gets noticed by a dev.

I also want to write out the rules to see how they look like on paper as well as get feedback. I considered 3d6 before, but the max number being 18 threw me off a bit haha.

Yep, that's why the crit ranges get smaller :). Essentially DC 11 (average) requires a 16 for crit success or a 6 for crit failure. The one issue with all of this is that it amplifies being better than average, because if your bonus is +2 above what it should be, then suddenly you're critting on a 14 or better...

I'd also consider only having crits do 150% damage rather than 200... but this is just throwing ideas out there...

Honestly, DeadManWalking has a good post on what's wrong with PF2, and someone point out (I think correctly) that the crit ranges are essentially part of it. The problem is with ranges as wide as they are, a fighter who's got a 60% chance to hit on their first attack (pretty low really...) is going to crit 10% of the time (pretty high!). As soon as you move away from that problems arise. If you want your warpriest cleric to hit >50% of the time on their first attack, suddenly the Fighter is critting 20% of the time...


tivadar27 wrote:

Yep, that's why the crit ranges get smaller :). Essentially DC 11 (average) requires a 16 for crit success or a 6 for crit failure. The one issue with all of this is that it amplifies being better than average, because if your bonus is +2 above what it should be, then suddenly you're critting on a 14 or better...

I'd also consider only having crits do 150% damage rather than 200... but this is just throwing ideas out there...

Yeah, the problem with crits being too frequent under the +/- 10 critical system is a result of using the uniform distribution of a d20. Both 2d10 and 3d6 give different percentages. Let's compare the two:

Rolling 2d10 (crits occur when rolling +/- 10 from DC):

Hit on 11: 55% accuracy
Crit chance: 1%

Hit on 10: 64% accuracy
Crit chance: 1%

Hit on 9: 72% accuracy
Crit chance: 3%

Hit on 8: 79% accuracy
Crit chance: 6%

Hit on 7: 85% accuracy
Crit chance: 10%

Rolling 3d6 (crits occur when rolling +/- 5 from DC):

Hit on 11: 50% accuracy
Crit chance: 4.7%

Hit on 10: 62.5% accuracy
Crit chance: 9.3%

Hit on 9: 74.1% accuracy
Crit chance: 16.2%

Hit on 8: 83.8% accuracy
Crit chance: 25.9%

Hit on 7: 90.7% accuracy
Crit chance: 37.5%

As you can see, if you have crits occur in the 3d6 system at +/- 5 from target number, then they will occur much more frequently, even more than the d20 system at the extremes. If you hit on a 7 with a d20, you have a 70% chance to hit and only 20% chance to crit. As such, I would suggest that if your house games use 3d6, to adjust the crit range to be at +/- 7 of the DC for more manageable crit rates.

Looking at the numbers above, I must say I still prefer 2d10 because it allows you to increase player accuracy without increasing crit range too much. Crit ranges with the 2d10 system only get a little bit out of hand when you factor in advantage, but even then it only becomes that high if you have advantage AND an already high accuracy.

E.g. If the PC already hits on a 7 without advantage, advantage would shoot his crit chance from 10% to 23.3%. That situation is very rare though, so it's not too big a deal.


Double proficiency bonuses.

Untrained in a skill becomes +1/2 level.

Add General Feats: Weapon Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen weapon group), Armor Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen armor weight category), Shield Focus (improve proficiency one degree with shields).

Monsters would be completely redone. (if they're going to be built differently than PCs, then I would reintroduce types among them (physical, magical, skillful, so on) rather than have them all be good at everything.

Return to static skill DCs.

Remove Vancian casting entirely in favour of a spell point casting system.

Wands no longer have charges, instead they become the equivalent of reusable scrolls (and have static results of average rolls --ie wand of level one Heal will always return 6 HP as if a 4 was rolled and caster had wis 14) that consume resonance per casting.

Others as well, this is just off the top of my head.


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Scythia wrote:

Double proficiency bonuses.

Untrained in a skill becomes +1/2 level.

Add General Feats: Weapon Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen weapon group), Armor Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen armor weight category), Shield Focus (improve proficiency one degree with shields).

Monsters would be completely redone. (if they're going to be built differently than PCs, then I would reintroduce types among them (physical, magical, skillful, so on) rather than have them all be good at everything.

Return to static skill DCs.

Remove Vancian casting entirely in favour of a spell point casting system.

Wands no longer have charges, instead they become the equivalent of reusable scrolls (and have static results of average rolls --ie wand of level one Heal will always return 6 HP as if a 4 was rolled and caster had wis 14) that consume resonance per casting.

Others as well, this is just off the top of my head.

Let me know how double proficiency bonus works out. Unless you change the underlying system, it's just going to make the gap between a Trained and Legendary PC huge. One will pretty much auto-succeed at what they do while the other struggles with stuff. It also requires reworking monster math, because they're currently designed to fit the -2/+0/+1/+2/+3 system.

With an increase in proficiency bonus, those Focus feats immediately become feat taxes that everyone who's not legendary must take. This means your martials become straddled with feat taxes to be effective, while spellcasters enjoy their automatic legendary proficiency in spell rolls, spell attacks and DCs.

The monster specialty thing sounds a lot like the types of monsters in 4e (Skirmisher, Brute, Soldier etc.). It's a good idea, I think.

Envoy's Alliance

Pramxnim wrote:


2. Players roll for everything:

I was actually talking to a friend about this today :) It seems like an interesting approach. Perhaps we could have a situation where "The Players roll everything" or "The Defender never rolls". I'd be interested in seeing what people thought of those approaches. iirc Numeria is a game which employs "The Players Roll Everything"

Pramxnim wrote:


Advantage/Disadvantage:
I like this mechanic from 5e, but there it had the disadvantage (heh) of affecting the die roll too much. With 2d10, advantage means rolling 3d10 and dropping the lowest die, and disadvantage means dropping the highest die.

I'm not feeling this or the 2d10 thing. I think it over-normalizes the die, but maybe i'm just too attached to that volatility.

Pramxnim wrote:


Inherent item bonus:

Someone likes automatic bonus progression ;) I agree to an extent here, but iirc runes can be removed and put on different items so I think the problem magic items had in pf1 aren't there in pf2. I could go either way on this.

Pramxnim wrote:


1. Shields:
Shield Hardness is doubled. A simple change that makes shields more usable.

2. Armour:
Simplified Armour system: individual armors don't exist, just types.

I feel like the shields thing is indicative of how mandatory healing is, and thus how absolutely necessary mitigation is. I think at the very least it should be clearer about how much shields block, but doubling the amount might be a bridge too far. Then again, when was the last time your shield got hit and NOT dented?

The armor change sounds like a pretty slick idea. The variation between armors is pretty minor, but it allows some wiggle room from "I don't any dex" to "I have like 2 dex" and the spaces in between. I could get behind this though.

Pramxnim wrote:


Shared hero points

I really like this!


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Pramxnim wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Double proficiency bonuses.

Untrained in a skill becomes +1/2 level.

Add General Feats: Weapon Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen weapon group), Armor Focus (improve proficiency one degree with a chosen armor weight category), Shield Focus (improve proficiency one degree with shields).

Monsters would be completely redone. (if they're going to be built differently than PCs, then I would reintroduce types among them (physical, magical, skillful, so on) rather than have them all be good at everything.

Return to static skill DCs.

Remove Vancian casting entirely in favour of a spell point casting system.

Wands no longer have charges, instead they become the equivalent of reusable scrolls (and have static results of average rolls --ie wand of level one Heal will always return 6 HP as if a 4 was rolled and caster had wis 14) that consume resonance per casting.

Others as well, this is just off the top of my head.

Let me know how double proficiency bonus works out. Unless you change the underlying system, it's just going to make the gap between a Trained and Legendary PC huge. One will pretty much auto-succeed at what they do while the other struggles with stuff. It also requires reworking monster math, because they're currently designed to fit the -2/+0/+1/+2/+3 system.

With an increase in proficiency bonus, those Focus feats immediately become feat taxes that everyone who's not legendary must take. This means your martials become straddled with feat taxes to be effective, while spellcasters enjoy their automatic legendary proficiency in spell rolls, spell attacks and DCs.

The monster specialty thing sounds a lot like the types of monsters in 4e (Skirmisher, Brute, Soldier etc.). It's a good idea, I think.

The gap between a trained and legendary PC should be huge. That's the difference between an apprentice electrician and Nikola Tesla.

I was pretty unimpressed by most of the general feats, so giving a few options that are desirable doesn't seem like much of a downside to me.

I don't know if I'm willing to put enough effort in to revamp all the monsters, so that's just speculative for now.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1. You can select class feats from any class, as long as there is no class feature prerequisite.

2. Remove resonance, make all activatable items 1/day, bring back a universal Use Magic Device that lets you squeeze more uses out per day, remove any sort of restriction on consumables besides actions and gold.

3. Give everyone two race feats at first level, and remove level restrictions.

4. Backgrounds become: Choose a stat increase, a skill feat, and two signature skills.

5. Give paladins a smite ability baseline and make retributive strike a feat. Also give a bonus reaction along with divine health. Make lay on hands usable with full hands baseline.

6. Make Hunt Target instead allow you to make a strike as a reaction at any time during a round for the next three rounds with no MAP.

7. Make sneak attack apply to any weapon type.

8. Give out more skill increases.

9. Remove armor check penalty and movement speed reduction for all armors.

10. Make fighter and paladin armor proficiency boosts apply to all armors, not just heavy.

11. Allow general feats to purchase class feats.

12. Make several skill feats baseline to the skill (pick pocket, recognize spell, etc.)

13. Remove multiple rolls for disable device checks.

I'll try to remember the rest later.


One of the changes would be to 'Versatile performance' as for a Bard class feat, it traps you into Performance, instead of empowering the skill {which in it of itself is pretty underwhelming, but I have not thought of a solution to give it a little bit of a kick.)

The major problem I have is it takes activates from Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Deception, and places them into Performance {Not so bad, depending on the Character your making), but doesn't let you use Performance as a Prerequisite for those skills in other things. (For example Skill Feats involving those activates.) So your either stuck with the plain uses for those skills, or have to invest in those skills, rendering Versatile Performance useless.

I would house rule that you could use your Performance instead of the skill as a Prerequisite for things which only involve the activates mentioned in Versatile Performance (So you could say use as a prereq for Skill Feats involving the 'Make an Impression' activity, but not for things such as the 'Gather Information' activity.)

A good portion of the other things have already been mentioned or I haven't had enough experience with the new system to really contribute on.


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If this was the final version? I'd either stick with pathfinder classic or try out a new game. I'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of things in the current playtest I'd like to see elsewhere.


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I'd see if I could cannibalize some of the rules that are playing out reasonably well (action economy, bulk instead of weight, and scaling cantrips, for example) and integrate them in a balanced way into PF1E.

But the base system? I wouldn't. The 2 rulesets thing (different rules for "the party and whoever is on their side" and "everything else in the known universe" for character creation, initiative ties, dying, etc.) is just a hard stop for me. It's not the game world I want to run or play in.

I'm not even sure what, exactly, the intended benefit of this change is. It was one of the best things about going from AD&D2.5E to D&D3.0E was that we not only had the tools, but the tools could be applied to the world as a whole. Once I had that, I never wanted to go back to the opaque and arbitrary model of world creation.

I'll keep running the playtest, and hope for the best. I really want 2E to be the sparkly new and improved version of 1E. I'm not sure it's feeling like that for me, so far. YMMV.


We will houserule dying to something a lot simpler, possibly 5e style.


I'm going to try and get the game changed to the way I think it should work through the play test before I house rule anything.


Potentially signature skills out or giving fighter an extra skill. Probably changing sorc greater and advanced powers to feats and possibly playtesting how a crossblooded sorc works by porting over an equivalent of the expanded domain power.

Otherwise I'm happy with the bulk of the playtest.


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for big sweeping changes (that'd very likely need some more specific tuning afterwards), i'd probably do these off th top of my head:

Spoiler:
  • nerf all DCs and monster skills/attacks by 2-3 (so optimized characters don't have a 50/50, and unoptimized characters have a more decent chance at a given task)
  • alter signature skills' limitation to legendary-only, and grant a bonus signature skill of the player's choice. and give pretty much every non-caster a few extra skill points to actually make use of skills.
  • list perception as a skill again--currently it acts like a skill (several skills, now), calculates like a skill, and scales like a skill. just save people the confusion and call the duck a duck.
  • [this is the most controversial/in need of individual balance] combine all class features from levels 1-3 or 4 into level 1 and work up from there, to actually begin play as the class as advertised, not a half-gimped version (and actually lets players interact with the "build your own class" design like class feats and archetypes/multiclassing from the start in a meaningful way). this also grants everyone a general feat at 1 so people can actually flex out of their paizo-decided compartments a little (such as wielding a different weapon.
  • look over actions and costs VERY closely and eliminate needless action-taxes, as the rules currently disallow any caster/alchemist from ever, EVER using a two-handed weapon or shield due to sheer action economy nightmare from handedness-changing and spellcasting. this makes things like staff-wielding wizards, "link" bards a la LoZ, and most stripes of gish completely impossible.
  • split weapon-specific class feats/abilities (TWF, quickdraw, etc) off into general feats again to cut down on reprinting for every class entry's off-brand flavor, replace with something actually attractive to choose for those classes that specialize in it (bonuses on top, not basic competence).
  • upgrade master and legendary skill feats to be actually impressive--be it emulating magic or otherwise approrpaitely world-changing stuff (stealthing so hard you become invisible in darkness, diplomacy so hard you basically charm without repercussions, etc).
  • goodbye resonance, you useless, over-corrected mechanic to punish everyone for a problem that only exists in paizo's houserule collection content. swap alchemist to simple "X crafts per day" along the same baseline accordingly, with +2 crafts tacked on whenever they take bomb feats or something, like all the other spell point classes' feats in the same vein.
  • swap weapon and armor bonus scaling/dice over to player proficiency, since they already have matching tracks, and allows players to be competent even if their magical +5 sword of awesome is stolen or they are taken prisoner.
  • rebalance class feats to appropriately scale with their peers--rangers shouldnt be getting "craft free traps at a penalty" at the same level wizards get "9th-level spells".
  • redial some classes to better fit their "design directions". for example: completely overhaul the paladin's retributive strike--include some sort of active ability for the player to incentivise being the enemy's focus (like a group challenge), increase the penalty/debuffs for ignoring them, add additional RS's in a turn as you level (like a scaling combat reflexes) to allow you to actually make use of your other reaction abilities (AoO and shield warden)
  • look into converting/rebalancing DSP's "path of war" content or something similar to give martial classes something "on top" of their class abilities to balance against spellcasting's strong power/utility (even 2e's diminished casting).
  • rolling back a few of the more extreme nerf-angles that were taken on spellcasting. there were several means of dialing back spellcasting from 1e, and 2e seems to have applied all of them where they only needed perhaps one or two (leaves casters feeling terrible, and comes with "too rare to actually use" syndrome for their few good spells in play).

of course this amount of homebrewing would effectively be me just making a wholly different system, which raises the question as to why i wouldn't just do that to begin with...


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Honestly, if this was the final version of the game, i would have to sit and write again atleast half the book to be worth playing...

So i wouldnt do it.

Anyway: The entire magic system, rebalance and recheck the familiar and AC, check over the items, probably alter the skill system, find a way to remove the expected 50% status the game is trying to build...


Zman0 wrote:
Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:
Zman0 wrote:
Then you don't like P2. The system underlying the +lvl scaling is Bound. Literally nothing about design concerns you've listed is easier with the +lvl scaling tacked into P2.
One of the designers said something about off-the-cuff monster creation is a lot easier with the +lvl growth, so I'll reserve final judgment until those are released. So far, again, I still like it from both sides of the table.
Monster creation will be roughly the same actually. But, monster modification on the fly, ie scaling a monster up or down to serve a purpose is much simpler with the +lvl mechanic. It is really the biggest advantage of it. Though, both will be roughly equally viable using something like their Elite/Weak mechanic. It just is a bit more fiddly for Bound, but the basic Elite/Weak template will look similar. There are other considerations here too, with the wider range of viable opposition in Bound you will often have less need for that kind of on the fly scaling to its a catch 22 etc. etc.

Also, removing the +Level treadmill makes the +1, +2, and +3 from Expert, Master, and Legendary proficiency, feel all the more special. As far as monster design concerns, opening up the threat ranges makes for more design space.

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