| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Heres a list of problems Ive written down. Not absolutely comprehensive.
#1 Spells per day are Reduced and Fixed. This is just a flat reduction in what players have access to. Not a benefit
#2 Removal of Bonus Spells Per day. Just a negative, not a benefit.
#3 Changed and now Fixed spell effects make many spells useless, even Jokes to have them remain on spell lists.
They dont increase in range or area of effect, how many people they effect, or duration. Its just a negative.
#4 Tier 10 spells and slot. Only unlocked through a Class Feat to just gain access to ONE Tier 10 slot, and the Tier 10 spells were previously tier 9s. Not beneficial.
#5 Concentration. A negative mechanic added to limit how much players can do. Not beneficial.
#6 Heightened spell effects vary in terms of effectiveness and I see many are so weak that it puts the important of the entire Heigtened mechanic into question.
Also its little use for Spontaneous Casters as they have to "buy" each slighlty different version of a spell eating up their finite number of spells known.
#7 Spontaneous Casters have moved backwards in flexibility. A major boon in Pathfinder was the Racial Favored Class Bonus.
Some Races could go beyond the normal list of Spells Known. 20 more spells known was large benefit.
A Prepare class like the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid would know or at least learn every spell on their list.
Spontaneous spellcasters can learn a maximum number and no more. If and when updates come out they will lose access to any new releases.
#8 Redundant Free Ability bonuses. There are additional Free Ability bonuses for each Background, Race, and Class.
Its unnecessary to give so many "free bonuses" to every choices instead of just adding 3 more Ability Score boosts to for "general" character ceation.
#9 Starting VS Leveling ability scores. At the begining you have many Ability Scores boosts. As you level you gain more.
However you can gain a Maximum of +4 to each ability score. You can start at 18 and end at 22. There isnt much growth.
#10 Confusing Vague language. Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, and Legendary being used for each category required either memorization of terms or frequent checking.
Also too many things called "Feats". Class Feats, Ancestry Feats, Skill Feats, General Feats.
#11 Ancestry "feats". Characters used to get all these when they made a character. Not a beneficial change.
#12 Reduction in number of General Feats available and number each character gains. Not beneficial.
#13 Class feats. Many of them were abilities that the classes recieved for free and could gain more. Youre getting more choices but less overall.
#14 Resonance. You have to keep track of a new resource and"pay" to use items now.
Items with limits like charges now have an additional restrictions on how many times you can can activate regardless of how many charges or lack thereof.
#15 Action system. Limited of three actions per turn, unless they are Free Actions. Some actions use up all actions, like spellcasting.
This will be broken in various ways so that players dont dont have to repeatedly count down or argue over what is "free" or takes an action.
#16 Spell Focus. Spellcasting characters have to find ways to keep equipment from interacting poorly with limited number of actions, like taking off and putting a shield back on taking 2 actions
#16 Multiple Attack Penalty. Same -5 per additional attack in the same turn as old Full Round Attack Actions.
#17 Attacks of Opportunity are now Fighter Class only?
#18 Druids dont seem to be to cast spells while in Animal Form anymore.
=================
Benefits.
Bards are now full tier 9/10 spellcasters, sweet.
It's true, basically everything is powered down compared to PF1. Yes, martial characters too, but spellcasters especially. It's an attempt to extend the early/mid level zone of that game I think.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
INT is probably the worst stat now because lol, what skill bonuses?
Also - no bonus spells and just one bonus language if over 14
|
I can only agree with the complaint about everything being called a feat. I would have preferred something like Ancestry Attributes, Background Features and Class Abilities or something, to easily reference the kind of ability, without it becoming too general, as is now the case.
Intelligence gives you additional Trained skills. No way that's weak... But you have to like skills for that, and accept the shift in game balance.
Also Language unlocks becoming more rare is an interesting story component.
I'm sorry, but comparing the balance of a new edition by basing it on the previous edition makes no sense. This is a totally different game: Play it and judge based on those experiences, rather than on fear of losing power.
#7 Spontaneous Casters have moved backwards in flexibility...
This is where you lost me. Spontaneous casters should never be able to have that many spells known on their list. Being able to have the flexibility of a Spontaneous caster with the versatility of a Prepared caster was one of the huge downsides of PF1E for me. It legitimately made Oracle/Sorcerer the go-to for Casters and tended to exclude most races that didn't get free spells.
Sorcerer's in 2E are in a GREAT place, though the one thing that I would like to see them have is a class feat they could pick up to raise their number of spontaneous heightens by two (to a total of four) just like the Bard gets.
Just to keep things on more of a positive note, there was at least one piece of feedback that you gave that I do agree with at least partially.
#14 Resonance. You have to keep track of a new resource and"pay" to use items now.
I can agree with this, while I do like the removal of "Magic Item Slots" on a character and using some sort of resource to power magical items through investment.. it goes a bit too far when you tie it to consumable and use activated magical items. It goes even further when you tie it to a class feature like they did with the Alchemist.
I posted this and immediately after the forum went down for days. I didnt even know if it actually got posted.
Look I also put this up on the Pathfinder 2 Playtest group on Facebook.
I am trying to be objective.
I cant change the opening because Paizo still hasnt made it possible to edit things after 1 hour.
Point Number One. Even if you dont know me I can tell you things about myself. Personally I like open systems. I like characters to be somewhat flat at the beginning and for players to personalize them, but also not be locked in like they set their Destiny when the idea came up in their head. In Pathfinder I like flexible characters rather than specialized.
Point Number Two. Personal belief and ideals dont changes facts from being facts. Not everything on that list is a fact.
Point Number Three. While being objective many of the items on the list as "detrimental" are in regards to the the target being affected by the change. Its not in regards to game balance. This is not about game balance. This is about changes between Pathfinder 1 and Pathfinder 2.
This is just an attempt to write a impartial report, and its a work in progress. I retrospect dont believe the Paizo forum is a good place for this because of the aforementioned limits on editing. I cant edit in the updated version.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can sympathize with the OP's attitude.
When Pathfinder came out in 2008-09, it felt like Christmas morning. All of a sudden, Rogues, Rangers, Sorcerers and Wizards got more hit points! Quicker feat progression? Yes, please. They introduced us to Deadly Aim! Barbarians and Half-Orcs are back! Druids are back, and they can wildshape one level sooner, yes please thank you. Ditching Concentration as a skill? Bless you merry gentlemen. Stealth was a new, fresh-faced skill combining Hide and Move Silently, so a great boon to rogues that helped alleviate some of their skill tax. Listen, Spot and Search were combined into a single new skill: Perception: hurray for Rogues, and everyone else! It felt like every class was receiving a very nice, thoughtful Christmas present, wrapped up with a bow under the tree.
Today, it feels like we're losing things, e.g., skill choice and character customization are greatly lowered. I thought martials were supposedly weak compared to casters, but Deadly Aim is gone, while Power Attack and other martial feats have been diminished. Everyone now has to wait for all those nifty little racial abilities you previously started with instantly at character creation (I don't know what that balances). Many feats that used to be available to everyone now are restricted to certain classes. Instead of the GP price and body slots limiting magic items, we have to account for one additional limiting mechanic, Resonance. (I really don't understand the hate against wands of cure light wounds: what's wrong with healing after a battle if it extends the 10-minute workday??) Only 1 bonus language for high Intelligence (which seems unfair to Rogues and other martials to the benefit of casters, who can use magic to cast comprehend languages etc.).
Today it feels a little like the opposite of Christmas morning, for the sake of "balance" for a game where myself and my players didn't feel this imbalance that others apparently are upset about. It's like we received all those nice Christmas gifts 10 years ago when PF1 came out, but now our parents are making us box up all the shiny toys.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can sympathize with the OP's attitude...
...Today it feels a little like the opposite of Christmas morning, for the sake of "balance" for a game where myself and my players didn't feel this imbalance that others apparently are upset about. It's like we received all those nice Christmas gifts 10 years ago when PF1 came out, but now our parents are making us box up all the shiny toys.
I tend to agree here. I feel like the developers really perceive level 1 to 12 as the play experience they want to emulate with Pathfinder 2, and in an effort to emulate that they've taken roughly the amount of player choice you used to have in 12 levels and stretch it over 20 levels. That means stretching ancestry bonuses over multiple levels. Having to take multiple class feats just to keep feature relevant, or to not fall behind the games expected numbers. Having next to no class features, having to gain everything through class feats, but then reducing the number of general feats because you get a class feats as well. It all adds up to a class advancement chart that looks very generous, but when actually creating characters ends up feeling pretty unrewarding.
It almost feels like they're so afraid of letting the game get away from them that they're not willing to actually give players impactful, or meaningful choices.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can sympathize with the OP's attitude...
...Today it feels a little like the opposite of Christmas morning, for the sake of "balance" for a game where myself and my players didn't feel this imbalance that others apparently are upset about. It's like we received all those nice Christmas gifts 10 years ago when PF1 came out, but now our parents are making us box up all the shiny toys.I tend to agree here. I feel like the developers really perceive level 1 to 12 as the play experience they want to emulate with Pathfinder 2, and in an effort to emulate that they've taken roughly the amount of player choice you used to have in 12 levels and stretch it over 20 levels. That means stretching ancestry bonuses over multiple levels. Having to take multiple class feats just to keep feature relevant, or to not fall behind the games expected numbers. Having next to no class features, having to gain everything through class feats, but then reducing the number of general feats because you get a class feats as well. It all adds up to a class advancement chart that looks very generous, but when actually creating characters ends up feeling pretty unrewarding.
It almost feels like they're so afraid of letting the game get away from them that they're not willing to actually give players impactful, or meaningful choices.
I honestly don't understand the mentality behind the changes. I get that 1-12 was some of the most popular play, but that was only because firstly the higher level play started to get too complex. I've run multiple games at level 15+ and so long as you keep the mentality of "yeah these guys are freaking big dang heroes" then it's hardly an issue, so long as you state firmly as the GM what you're alright with and what you aren't as far as spellcasting goes.
But also the biggest limiting factor in high level was time. It takes a LONG time to reach 12th and up for most tables if people have jobs and can only meet maybe every 2 weeks like my current group. It took us several months to clear 10th level in the Skulls and Shackles AP for example, and that's not always something people can just do. So now it seems they have taken the 1-12 feeling and stretched it out so badly that in this same several month periods we would be 12th level with the proportionate power of like what...6th level characters then? That's not a very rewarding feeling just as you've said.
I don't see why they wouldn't keep the existing feel of 1-12 as the actual 1-12, but just managed the higher levels better. Maybe say that "characters literally stop being regular adventurers at 10th level" and having specific challenges and flavor for being larger than life heroes and such (if they are trying to go for a 'radical departure' from the tradition as they say I could see this being a better option). That would at least preserve the feeling of progression.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can sympathize with the OP's attitude.
When Pathfinder came out in 2008-09, it felt like Christmas morning. All of a sudden, Rogues, Rangers, Sorcerers and Wizards got more hit points! Quicker feat progression? Yes, please. They introduced us to Deadly Aim! Barbarians and Half-Orcs are back! Druids are back, and they can wildshape one level sooner, yes please thank you. Ditching Concentration as a skill? Bless you merry gentlemen. Stealth was a new, fresh-faced skill combining Hide and Move Silently, so a great boon to rogues that helped alleviate some of their skill tax. Listen, Spot and Search were combined into a single new skill: Perception: hurray for Rogues, and everyone else! It felt like every class was receiving a very nice, thoughtful Christmas present, wrapped up with a bow under the tree.
Today, it feels like we're losing things, e.g., skill choice and character customization are greatly lowered. I thought martials were supposedly weak compared to casters, but Deadly Aim is gone, while Power Attack and other martial feats have been diminished. Everyone now has to wait for all those nifty little racial abilities you previously started with instantly at character creation (I don't know what that balances). Many feats that used to be available to everyone now are restricted to certain classes. Instead of the GP price and body slots limiting magic items, we have to account for one additional limiting mechanic, Resonance. (I really don't understand the hate against wands of cure light wounds: what's wrong with healing after a battle if it extends the 10-minute workday??) Only 1 bonus language for high Intelligence (which seems unfair to Rogues and other martials to the benefit of casters, who can use magic to cast comprehend languages etc.).
Today it feels a little like the opposite of Christmas morning, for the sake of "balance" for a game where myself and my players didn't feel this imbalance that others apparently are upset about. It's like we received all those nice Christmas gifts 10...
I am too getting this feeling when reading the playtest.