No surprise round?


Playing the Game


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Am I reading this right?

I've read Encounter mode starting on page.304 and as I can tell there is no surprise round.

Is there any point in sneaking or setting ambushes as now worst that can happen when you walk into an ambush is that you maybe act after ambushers.

And many times you will act before your ambushers.

I don't think that this was thought through well enough.


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If your Stealth bonus is much better than the Perception bonus of your foes (something that you would want to ensure if you are trying to ambush them), then you would have a major advantage in initiative.


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David knott 242 wrote:

If your Stealth bonus is much better than the Perception bonus of your foes (something that you would want to ensure if you are trying to ambush them), then you would have a major advantage in initiative.

and?

so you get to act 1st.

Before you always acted 1st and depending on initiative acted the 2nd time before they did.


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Sneaking successfully means you can start combat undetected. Even if you don't beat them in initiative opponents would either not attack you at all or have to spend actions detecting you. Either one is to the benefit of you. If you act first and choose to attack, your foe is flat-footed to you. In this system every advantage you can get to your rolls is huge.

Rulebook page 317 wrote:

Sneaking

You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while moving at half your travel Speed, unless you have an ability to move at full Speed while Sneaking. If you’re Sneaking at an encounter’s start, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check as part of your initiative roll, both to determine initiative order and to see if the enemies notice you.


Looks like about the best you could get is your DM giving a +4 circumstance bonus on the Stealth Initiative roll if you carefully set up an ambush.


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So if the ambushed party wins initiative, what do they do?

Do they know they rolled initiative and all start to Seek? While this seems silly if the sneaking person doesn't get surprise, then why roll initiative?

Or I suppose they all ready actions since combat has started?

Not to mention the sneaker drops out of stealth before the attack.


I would asume the fact that they went first in initiative means they noticed something with their perception vs the (hypotetical) ninja. Basically they got 'a bad feeling', I guess. Doesn't mean they know exactly where you are or anything, they still have to find you.

If your Stealth's high enough, and you have patience, you could even recreate the classic "it was probably nothing" Skyrim experience, I suppose.


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Fumarole wrote:

Sneaking successfully means you can start combat undetected. Even if you don't beat them in initiative opponents would either not attack you at all or have to spend actions detecting you. Either one is to the benefit of you. If you act first and choose to attack, your foe is flat-footed to you. In this system every advantage you can get to your rolls is huge.

Rulebook page 317 wrote:

Sneaking

You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while moving at half your travel Speed, unless you have an ability to move at full Speed while Sneaking. If you’re Sneaking at an encounter’s start, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check as part of your initiative roll, both to determine initiative order and to see if the enemies notice you.

They're only Flat-Footed if you're a Rogue, or have Surprise Attack from Rogue Multiclassing. If you do not, well...

"If you do anything else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."

Which means, if they win Initiative, even if you're Unseen, the moment you try to capitalise on it you become Seen (unless you're under 4th level Invisibility) and they're not Flat-Footed.

Stealth and Initiative rules in PF2 are pretty borked. There's no way to ambush or snipe effectively.


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TheFinish wrote:
Fumarole wrote:

Sneaking successfully means you can start combat undetected. Even if you don't beat them in initiative opponents would either not attack you at all or have to spend actions detecting you. Either one is to the benefit of you. If you act first and choose to attack, your foe is flat-footed to you. In this system every advantage you can get to your rolls is huge.

Rulebook page 317 wrote:

Sneaking

You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while moving at half your travel Speed, unless you have an ability to move at full Speed while Sneaking. If you’re Sneaking at an encounter’s start, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check as part of your initiative roll, both to determine initiative order and to see if the enemies notice you.

They're only Flat-Footed if you're a Rogue, or have Surprise Attack from Rogue Multiclassing. If you do not, well...

"If you do anything else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."

Which means, if they win Initiative, even if you're Unseen, the moment you try to capitalise on it you become Seen (unless you're under 4th level Invisibility) and they're not Flat-Footed.

Stealth and Initiative rules in PF2 are pretty borked. There's no way to ambush or snipe effectively.

This was corrected to include everyone in the Paizo Twitch stream on Friday. It will be included on the errata document that will be released on Monday.

Silver Crusade

I took a quick glance through the bestiary. Even top level stealth monsters seem to have only about 2 higher stealth than perception.

So (at least until Mondays errata) there is next to no difference between surprising, being surprised, and just walking around a turn and all seeing each other.

1) I really don't like the fact that surprise now apparently gives next to no advantage (+2 to initiative rolls is pretty minor)

2) I checked todays playtest group (level 1). Exactly 1 of the 6 characters had a stealth higher than the perception. So, at least as it stands now, very few characters even CARE if they surprise or get surprised.

3) It is REALLY unclear to me how "notice opponents and pre-buff" is now supposed to work. Does throwing a buff spell count as a hostile action and prompt initiative?


Igor Horvat wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

If your Stealth bonus is much better than the Perception bonus of your foes (something that you would want to ensure if you are trying to ambush them), then you would have a major advantage in initiative.

and?

so you get to act 1st.

Before you always acted 1st and depending on initiative acted the 2nd time before they did.

And that was a little overpowered and made low level encounters almost trivial when you had a stealth monger.

"I sneak attack in the surprise round as they are flat footed."
"Normal round, I sneak attack as they are flat footed, and two weapon fight for additional attack!"

"Dude, You are level 3. With your short swords you did 3d6+5, then 3d6+5, and 3d6+2 It dies."


pauljathome wrote:
1) I really don't like the fact that surprise now apparently gives next to no advantage (+2 to initiative rolls is pretty minor)

Actually it gives your enemies a -4 to initiative according to the play test core.

Quote:
2) I checked todays playtest group (level 1). Exactly 1 of the 6 characters had a stealth higher than the perception. So, at least as it stands now, very few characters even CARE if they surprise or get surprised.

Not every character is stealth based.

How it works is, if you are stealthing, you use Stealth as Initiative. If you are not stealthy, you are not stealthing, so you don't need a high stealth score.

Quote:
3) It is REALLY unclear to me how "notice opponents and pre-buff" is now supposed to work. Does throwing a buff spell count as a hostile action and prompt initiative?

You don't. Once you see enemies, and they see you, Encounter Mode begins. There is no pre-buffing surprise round. Once you start buffing, you're going to get noticed.

Silver Crusade

HWalsh wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
1) I really don't like the fact that surprise now apparently gives next to no advantage (+2 to initiative rolls is pretty minor)

Actually it gives your enemies a -4 to initiative according to the play test core.

Where is this, please? I didn't see any such statement.

Quote:


You don't. Once you see enemies, and they see you, Encounter Mode begins. There is no pre-buffing surprise round. Once you start buffing, you're going to get noticed.

That is unclear to me. I ran The Rose Street Revenge the other day and in one encounter the PCs potentially alert there enemies, who then get to move and position themselves prior to combat.


O. N. wrote:

I would asume the fact that they went first in initiative means they noticed something with their perception vs the (hypotetical) ninja. Basically they got 'a bad feeling', I guess. Doesn't mean they know exactly where you are or anything, they still have to find you.

If your Stealth's high enough, and you have patience, you could even recreate the classic "it was probably nothing" Skyrim experience, I suppose.

That's the best way I've heard of describing it, even though I'm not sure I like that being how a lot of combats are going to go.

Multiple times my players have walked into a room and either actively Sought or were asked to make Perception checks for something lurking that wasn't intending on attacking immediately, or that was out of line of sight due to darkness or cover. The dice were not in their favor and the locations appeared to them to be nonthreatening.
So as soon as they move to a spot where the enemy launches an attack, it appears I have two choices:

1. The most reasonable might be to assume that the foe was Readying an action, which would mean that they could get a single action off as a reaction to a PC walking into the right place, and then I call for initiative to determine where everyone else falls in order

2. If the creature was not readying, and goes to take an action which would start encounter mode, but rolls poorly for initiative, the the PC's hear the 'Glass Breaks', but would be unable to to actually do much for their, since the foe hasn't actually done anything yet and is still not within any line of sight.


Aramar wrote:

1. The most reasonable might be to assume that the foe was Readying an action, which would mean that they could get a single action off as a reaction to a PC walking into the right place, and then I call for initiative to determine where everyone else falls in order

2. If the creature was not readying, and goes to take an action which would start encounter mode, but rolls poorly for initiative, the the PC's hear the 'Glass Breaks', but would be unable to to actually do much for their, since the foe hasn't actually done anything yet and is still not within any line of sight.

I don't have the book with me right now, but, as I see it:

PC is sneaking: They roll stealth vs passive perception, and it they fail, the enemy 'feels something' and gets a chance to Seek and/or act (basically, the enemy WON initiative). If you critfailed sneak, I guess maybe they see the PC right away, would have to check that. If the PC succeeds, they go first (winning initiative), becoming Sensed as they attack, unless they have a feat against that or something.

PC is being sneak upon: The enemy rolls vs the PC's passive perception EXCEPT if the tactic is 'paying attention' (searching?), in which case maybe the GM ought to roll for the PC's active perception if thy want to keep the suspense. If the enemy fails, the PC 'feels something' but don't know where or what (basically, the enemy LOST initiative), they have to Seek. If the enemy critfails, the PCs see the enemy. If the enemy succeeds, they go first, becoming Sensed as they attack.

Do creatures that were already hiding somewhere get passive or active stealth vs active or passive perception, for example in case of the ooze in Part 1? Hmm. I would have to read sneaking again.

Anyway, in case of multiple people, the ambushed all roll either active perception or passive, depending on what they were doing, while the ambushers roll either passive or active stealth. All this is either rolled secretly for suspense, or open if your players can avoid metagaming. All these results tell you who saw/felt what first.

Ej: if a creature rolls really good stealth and wins agains everyone EXCEPT one (say, a rogue), then that rogue 'feels something' and goes first, maybe finding the ambusher/alerting the others, then goes the ambusher, then everyone else (who may or may not be flatfooted anymore after being warned, would need to check).

If it works like this, it IS very organic, and I actually like it. It's gonna need some adjusting time to remember all the details though, not gonna lie.


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I think this needs some clarification from Paizo as it appears that it's causing a lot of confusion - to me and to a lot of you as well!

Here's how I'm running it right now.

If Party A is hiding and Party B is walking around, and Party B is not explicitly looking for Party A, then at the point of where Party A would do its thing, initiative is rolled. Party A rolls Stealth and Party B rolls Perception.

If Party A wins, then Party A jumps out of the shadows and does its thing. This probably results in a flat-footed attack and maybe some extra effects.

If Party B wins, then Party A jumps out but Party B sees them just in the nick of time and does its thing first, possibly damaging Party A first.

This, to me, is basically the same thing as rolling Stealth Vs. Perception and if Stealth wins, an Ambush occurs, and if not, then it does not. The ambusher does lose the benefit of an extra action in the form of a surprise round. I'm okay with that, though. I actually like this mechanic quite a bit. One thing I DON'T like is that in this scenario, Party A is now flat-footed. That seems a little weird to me - the guy doing the ambushing is somehow taken by surprise? (I mean, you could say that the ambusher is just taken aback by the quick reflexes of the seeker and so is essentially flat-footed... I dunno... seems weird.)

On the other hand, if Party A is hiding and Party B is actually looking for something unusual, then Party B rolls Perception against Party A's Stealth DC. If Party B wins, then they notice Party A and then initiative is rolled at that moment. If Party A wins, then Party B notices nothing, and you proceed as above. So it's possible for Party B to miss their perception roll, but still win initiative by noticing at the last second.

I don't really love this. It makes hiders potentially have to win two rolls to stay hidden. Of course, the seekers have to remember to seek, and in my experience players don't always roam around doing this. I suppose that this is one reason that the team added Exploration tactics?


O. N. wrote:


PC is being sneak upon: The enemy rolls vs the PC's passive perception EXCEPT if the tactic is 'paying attention' (searching?), in which case maybe the GM ought to roll for the PC's active perception if thy want to keep the suspense. If the enemy fails, the PC 'feels something' but don't know where or what (basically, the enemy LOST initiative), they have to Seek. If the enemy critfails, the PCs see the enemy. If the enemy succeeds, they go first, becoming Sensed as they attack.

Do creatures that were already hiding somewhere get passive or active stealth vs active or passive perception, for example in case of the ooze in Part 1? Hmm. I would have to read sneaking again.

Anyway, in case of multiple people, the ambushed all roll either active perception or passive, depending on what they were doing, while the ambushers roll either passive or active stealth. All this is either rolled secretly for suspense, or open if your players can avoid metagaming. All these results tell you who saw/felt what first.

I don't know if I like the idea of not only rolling my players' initiative for them, but also rolling it in secret.(There's a Dork Tower strip on that topic somewhere) Either way, indicating that they 'feel something' would be a sure of indicating that they're in for combat sooner or later, and while some groups might be able to avoid metagaming that at all, with my group at least it's pretty unlikely.

The ooze is a good example of 'sooner or later combat' - my PC's rolled Perception when they entered the 1st room, actively looking for anything of interest, and they all rolled poorly and so failed to even note that the ooze was present. The ooze attacks when something gets near, so that point we ended up rolling Perception v Stealth for a second time - and the ooze went last. Without a surprise round mechanic, it makes the PC's look like incredibly trigger-happy murder hobos - the ooze hadn't even had an action before the players had a chance to beat it to death. Narratively, it couldn't have done more than twitch before the barbarian sliced it into pieces.
I suppose could have treated the first Perception rolls as initiative, but it wouldn't make sense to even let the PC's know that actually been rolling for initiative until the combat started, since they weren't actually in combat until approaching the ooze's square. And I would have to keep track of what those earlier rolls were.


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This has been patched in the Errata.

Now when you are sneaking and you strike the enemy is flat footed to you (+2 attack). That's the surprise, but not a full surprise round anymore.

Also remember you don't roll twice for stealth and initiative, you only roll once. If you declare you sneak up to an enemy you just roll stealth AND THAT IS ALSO YOUR INITIATIVE ROLL. You don't even need to roll Stealth twice like somebody suggested, it's just one roll.

If you beat the perception DC of the NPC then you go first and the NPC is flat footed to you, if you fail he noticed you and can decide to attack you instead.


Aramar wrote:

I don't know if I like the idea of not only rolling my players' initiative for them, but also rolling it in secret.(There's a Dork Tower strip on that topic somewhere) Either way, indicating that they 'feel something' would be a sure of indicating that they're in for combat sooner or later, and while some groups might be able to avoid metagaming that at all, with my group at least it's pretty unlikely.

The ooze is a good example of 'sooner or later combat' - my PC's rolled Perception when they entered the 1st room, actively looking for anything of interest, and they all rolled poorly and so failed to even note that the ooze was present. The ooze attacks when something gets near, so that point we ended up rolling Perception v Stealth for a second time - and the ooze went last. Without a surprise round mechanic, it makes the PC's look like incredibly trigger-happy murder hobos - the ooze hadn't even had an action before the players had a chance to beat it...

But is it worse than what we have now? Now they roll perception, and when after rolling poorly you tell them they saw nothing, they knoww you're b~$%%%!*ting. Then they get stabbed by "Surprise Assassin."

Wanting the system to be both participative AND a true surprise is... almost unfair. Either you take it upon yourself to roll for them and note it down, or they participate in the game and do as if their PCs saw nothing (while squinting suspiciously at your notes, probably), and that's true for both PF systems.

And really, that they 'felt something' doesn't necessarily mean a fight is comming. There's more than one reason for something to hide and try to sneak past the PCs, and encounter mode doesn't need to be a fight. Maybe a chase? A competition with friendly rivals of who gets to the mcguffin first? Mysterious mechanisms? Depends on the plot, I suppose.

I believe it's probable that the PF2 system pretends for that initial perception vs stealth TO ALSO be the initiative rol (unless it's a very long, complex sneak that requires more rolls), but I'm not 100% certain. In either case, rolling initiative means the ooze must have done some aggresive movement, and that it lost means it just wasn't fast enough. "As you enter the room, you see nothing, but as you turn your head to say something you suddenly see something rushing towards you! What do you do?" If the ooze was just laying there unthreatingly, inmobile and uninterested the initiative roll was unnecesary. Or they're just murderhobos, which is also possible. It happens.

There is some level of contrivance in a game played 90% in our minds like some sort of codified mass delusion.

EDIT: Look at that, ninjas. Apparently I lost initiative.


I'm fine with there not being a full fledged old-style surprise round where the surprised side loses their turn entirely. I've seen too many completely lopsided encounters happen that way.

HOWEVER, I'd be just fine with there still being a surprise round of sorts where everyone still acts in initiative order, but the surprised side gets one less action on their turn - 2 instead of 3 - and is flat footed. Honestly, it's what I was expecting given the new action economy. That seems reasonable and fair.

The rogue's surprise ability can let them treat people as flat footed on the surprise round even if they act before the rogue in initiative order.


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pauljathome wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
1) I really don't like the fact that surprise now apparently gives next to no advantage (+2 to initiative rolls is pretty minor)

Actually it gives your enemies a -4 to initiative according to the play test core.

Where is this, please? I didn't see any such statement.

It can be inferred from the rules on resting.

Rulebook page 332 wrote:

Watches and Surprise Attacks

Groups usually put a few people on guard to watch out for danger while the others rest. Spending time on watch also interrupts sleep, so a night’s schedule needs to account for everyone’s time on guard duty. Table 10–1 indicates how long the group needs to set aside for rest based on everyone in the group getting a rotating watch assignment of equal length.

If a surprise encounter would occur during rest, you can roll a die to randomly determine which character is on watch at the time of the encounter. All characters roll initiative, with sleeping characters typically rolling Perception with the –4 penalty for being asleep. They don’t automatically wake up when rolling initiative, but might get a check to wake up at the start of their turns as normal. If a savvy enemy waits for a particularly vulnerable character to take watch before attacking, you can have the attack happen on that character’s watch automatically. However, you might have the ambusher attempt a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of the party to see if anyone noticed his approach.


O. N. wrote:


But is it worse than what we have now? Now they roll perception, and when after rolling poorly you tell them they saw nothing, they knoww you're b#%@%*@#ting. Then they get stabbed by "Surprise Assassin."

Wanting the system to be both participative AND a true surprise is... almost unfair. Either you take it upon yourself to roll for them and note it down, or they participate in the game and do as if their PCs saw nothing (while squinting suspiciously at your notes, probably), and that's true for both PF systems.

It depends on circumstances. There's little to no reason for my players to be (more) suspicious of anything if they roll poorly on a check that either they specifically asked to roll, or I called for when they entered a room, for the purpose of determining how much detail to give. Additionally, it doesn't have to be a terrible rolls to miss an ambushing opponent; a Seek result of 15 looks fine, but could still be inadequate to beat the Stealth DC.

O. N. wrote:


I believe it's probable that the PF2 system pretends for that initial perception vs stealth TO ALSO be the initiative rol (unless it's a very long, complex sneak that requires more rolls), but I'm not 100% certain. In either case, rolling initiative means the ooze must have done some aggresive movement, and that it lost means it just wasn't fast enough. "As you enter the room, you see nothing, but as you turn your head to say something you suddenly see something rushing towards you! What do you do?" If the ooze was just laying there unthreatingly, inmobile and uninterested the initiative roll was unnecesary. Or they're just murderhobos, which is also possible. It happens.

The question is how much aggressive movement counts as clearly aggressive movement vs what actually counts as an action. Were the ooze to go from stationary to rushing, that's a Stride. If a stationary gargoyle suddenly raises it's axe, that's an aggressive non-action. (Mind, I certainly have no interest in determining granularly how well the characters can interpret the hints/non-actions of any given creature type)

Maybe when a creature goes to fire an arrow from it's hiding place in the darkness, the 2nd Perception/initiative check means the PC's heard a grunt of exertion or a scuffling position adjustment? That still feels like too much of glass break, especially since the PC's then get their full suite of actions.


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Ghilteras wrote:

Also remember you don't roll twice for stealth and initiative, you only roll once. If you declare you sneak up to an enemy you just roll stealth AND THAT IS ALSO YOUR INITIATIVE ROLL. You don't even need to roll Stealth twice like somebody suggested, it's just one roll.

If you beat the perception DC of the NPC then you go first and the NPC is flat footed to you, if you fail he noticed you and can decide to attack you instead.

Yeah, I was gonna argue with this but I think you’re right.

So in a room with a hidden ooze where the ooze attacks if a PC gets within ten feet - you’d have the characters roll perception immediately on entering the room, and then when combat is triggered you would use those initial results? Even if a bunch of other stuff happened in the meantime? It seems a little weird that initiative rolls could be saved for later.

I still think some clarity would be good and I hope this is addressed in a FAQ document soon.


The way I played it was - the players basically entered the Grey Zone between Encounter and Exploration as soon as they reached the Sewer room. I had all minis on the Map. They mad perception rolls, and one of them noticed something ugly gurgling in the Sewer.
That was when one of them went to look, and it triggered initiative.
For the quicker players this meant they were able to seek the Ooze and make it sensed if they found it. They could also attack it unseen if they wanted it, as they already knew it was in the sewer grate. So I gave them miss chances accordingly.
When it was Oozies turn, he came up and slimed everybody.


Paizo please clarify this. I never know when it's right to roll inititative.

When do I roll for initiative exactly? And do I reroll previously made checks?

Say a 3 goblins try to ambush a PC.

The PC walks into the ambush room and notices a goblin because his passive perception > stealth roll from one of the goblins.

The goblins don't know that he has spotted one.

The PC wants to deceptively walk to the gobblin he spotted (so the goblin doesnt notice anything is up) and then strike him first.

I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?


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I do kind of still want the surprise round myself.


playtester wrote:

...

I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?

Deception roll is the PC's Initiative.

Goblin gets to roll Perception.

The player gets to position his character. If the Goblin's Perception is higher than the PC's deception-Ini, the goblin manages to notice the attack at the last second, and gets to act first, without ambush bonuses.

But that's my take on it, I can't really back that up with rules-quotes.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
playtester wrote:

...

I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?

Deception roll is the PC's Initiative.

Goblin gets to roll Perception.

The player gets to position his character. If the Goblin's Perception is higher than the PC's deception-Ini, the goblin manages to notice the attack at the last second, and gets to act first, without ambush bonuses.

But that's my take on it, I can't really back that up with rules-quotes.

This would devalue the PCs deception check he just made and force him to roll it again.

Grand Lodge

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You use the same check.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You use the same check.

That would still devalue the deception the PC just succeeded with.

He beat the passive perception DC of the goblins so he deceives them.

Only for them to roll initiative a second later and potentially acting before him, therefore negating his deception.

I don't see how this encourages roleplaying as it devalues "cool" actions like these.

Grand Lodge

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Why wouldn't you use the passive perception, or have rolled Perception instead?

Liberty's Edge

It sounds like you seem to believe rolling Init somehow informs the Goblins that they are in combat when it does not. They may beat the PC Init roll, but they'll just stand there doing their job if they think the Party isn't a thread or at odds with them. If they beat the PC on Init, all you need to do is wait for your turn in order and you'll still have an entire round of actions to your thing before then can act.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Why wouldn't you use the passive perception, or have rolled Perception instead?

The deception check is vs their passive perception DC as RAW.

Using their passive perception for initiative might be a solution that I have to try out, i will report back on this.

Themetricsystem wrote:

It sounds like you seem to believe rolling Init somehow informs the Goblins that they are in combat when it does not. They may beat the PC Init roll, but they'll just stand there doing their job if they think the Party isn't a thread or at odds with them. If they beat the PC on Init, all you need to do is wait for your turn in order and you'll still have an entire round of actions to your thing before then can act.

Entering encounter mode this way, before the encounter really started severely hampers RP choices in my opinion and also defeats the purpose of rolling initiative.


playtester wrote:

Paizo please clarify this. I never know when it's right to roll inititative.

When do I roll for initiative exactly? And do I reroll previously made checks?

Say a 3 goblins try to ambush a PC.

The PC walks into the ambush room and notices a goblin because his passive perception > stealth roll from one of the goblins.

The goblins don't know that he has spotted one.

The PC wants to deceptively walk to the gobblin he spotted (so the goblin doesnt notice anything is up) and then strike him first.

I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?

So, how would that play out in PF1? Both sides are aware of each other, so there's no surprise round either. You would probably roll Ini as soon as the PC noticed the goblins, or the second the PC tries to attack the goblin. What if the goblin rolled higher?

In PF2 now you have more of a guide who's where on the map, depending on the stealth, perception and deception rolls:

If the goblins are unseen (stealth higher than the players passive perception), the GM can decide when to launch the attack (=control of the starting distance). Initiative would be the goblins previous stealth roll against the players perception roll.
If the players roll well, they get a sense of something being up, but no information what is about to happen. Still they get to act first. (That is in contrast to PF1, where the goblins would have had a surprise round against the players)
If the players roll below the goblins stealth roll, the goblins only have one normal round of actions against the players, where in PF1 they had a surprise round and a normal round before the players could act.

If the goblins are seen, but not deceived, the GM can decide when to launch the attack. Initiative would be the players previous deception roll against the goblins Perception. So if the goblins roll bad, they are still flat-footed, even though they haven't been deceived. The players are simply faster to act, than the goblins to react.

If the goblins are seen, and deceived, the players can decide when to attack. Initiative would be the same as above, but the placement on the map would probably be different. If the goblins roll bad, the player has all the advantage (position and actions). If the goblins roll good, they get the sense something is about to happen (same as if the players didn't see the goblins stealthing as I noted above).

For me, this all makes enough sense within the game to work.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
If the goblins roll good, they get the sense something is about to happen (same as if the players didn't see the goblins stealthing as I noted above).

Which would render the already succeeded deception useless, therefore factually requiring the player to win 2 rolls (one vs passive perception, one vs initiative perception) to go through with what he wanted to do.

This is bad gamedesign since it prevents players from trying out cool stuff since there is no reward for it, in fact it's actually punished.

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