Why wouldn't you use the passive perception, or have rolled Perception instead?
The deception check is vs their passive perception DC as RAW.
Using their passive perception for initiative might be a solution that I have to try out, i will report back on this.
Entering encounter mode this way, before the encounter really started severely hampers RP choices in my opinion and also defeats the purpose of rolling initiative.
You use the same check.
That would still devalue the deception the PC just succeeded with.
He beat the passive perception DC of the goblins so he deceives them.
Only for them to roll initiative a second later and potentially acting before him, therefore negating his deception.
I don't see how this encourages roleplaying as it devalues "cool" actions like these.
Well initiative is kinda a pretty important core mechanic.
Franz Lunzer wrote:
This would devalue the PCs deception check he just made and force him to roll it again.
Paizo please clarify this. I never know when it's right to roll inititative.
When do I roll for initiative exactly? And do I reroll previously made checks?
Say a 3 goblins try to ambush a PC.
The PC walks into the ambush room and notices a goblin because his passive perception > stealth roll from one of the goblins.
The goblins don't know that he has spotted one.
The PC wants to deceptively walk to the gobblin he spotted (so the goblin doesnt notice anything is up) and then strike him first.
I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.
The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.
The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.
He wants to initiate combat.
How to proceed?
So what if there are Goblins in a room waiting to ambush the full party.
Let's say a rogue PC sneaks in first to scout the room.
He fails his Stealth check vs. the goblins.
The goblins know that one guy is in their room, but they want to hold their action until the rest of the party is in.
According to your interpretation combat would have to start as soon as the PC fails his check.
This is my take on the problem:
Sensing unseen Danger (Hazards or ambushing enemies) in exploration mode:
PC not searching / seeking
PC searching / seeking
(based on p341 Rulebook “Detecting a Hazard”)
For creatures stealth proficiency is treated as follows:
(based on p23 Bestiary “Skills, Perception, Proficiency”)
On success of secret PC perception roll Danger becomes sensed
(based on p317 Rulebook “Searching (exploration)” and p308 Rulebook “Seek (combat)”)
Combat starts if
If combat is initiated by a triggered Danger
(based on p340 Rulebook “Triggering a Hazard”)
In this case the Danger will roll stealth for initiative.
If combat is initiated by PCs before a Danger is triggered
I disagree with Captain Morgans solution in the way, that I do not see the ambushing monsters taking an active role before the battle starts.
Therefore the monsters should not have to roll a stealth check vs. a perception DC, when a PC enters the ambush area. The PC as the active role has to roll perception.
If the scenario was different, let's say a monster was sneaking up on a party, the active role would be on the monster. In that case I would make the monster roll a stealth check vs. the PCs Perception DCs.
I recently dove into PF2 rules and I stumbled upon a few things that I don't understand regarding hazards. On page 342 of the rulebook it states:
Stealth DC (p.342 Playtest Rulebook)
This is the hazard’s Stealth DC, which it uses to avoid
1. So does that mean that a complex hazards such as
Quicksand (p.18 Playtest Bestiary),
that have no Stealth DC are undetectable?
2. Complex hazards roll initiative with Stealth, but why does it for instance say Stealth +11 (trained) on the Quicksand hazard, or Stealth +12 (expert) on the Iron Maiden Trap?
Why is this information (trained, expert, legendary) relevant, if the Stealth modifier is only used for initiative and NOT for detecting the trap?