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Franz Lunzer wrote:
If the goblins roll good, they get the sense something is about to happen (same as if the players didn't see the goblins stealthing as I noted above).

Which would render the already succeeded deception useless, therefore factually requiring the player to win 2 rolls (one vs passive perception, one vs initiative perception) to go through with what he wanted to do.

This is bad gamedesign since it prevents players from trying out cool stuff since there is no reward for it, in fact it's actually punished.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Why wouldn't you use the passive perception, or have rolled Perception instead?

The deception check is vs their passive perception DC as RAW.

Using their passive perception for initiative might be a solution that I have to try out, i will report back on this.

Themetricsystem wrote:

It sounds like you seem to believe rolling Init somehow informs the Goblins that they are in combat when it does not. They may beat the PC Init roll, but they'll just stand there doing their job if they think the Party isn't a thread or at odds with them. If they beat the PC on Init, all you need to do is wait for your turn in order and you'll still have an entire round of actions to your thing before then can act.

Entering encounter mode this way, before the encounter really started severely hampers RP choices in my opinion and also defeats the purpose of rolling initiative.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
You use the same check.

That would still devalue the deception the PC just succeeded with.

He beat the passive perception DC of the goblins so he deceives them.

Only for them to roll initiative a second later and potentially acting before him, therefore negating his deception.

I don't see how this encourages roleplaying as it devalues "cool" actions like these.

Starfox wrote:
Raynulf wrote:
I'd put this under: "Ideas for how to handle immersion and sneaking, which we hadn't yet made consistent across the chapters".
Yes, very much so. The playtest is an early iteration of the rules, we always have to remember that. Its good to point out where things don't fit - but lets not go overboard.

Well initiative is kinda a pretty important core mechanic.

Franz Lunzer wrote:
playtester wrote:


I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?

Deception roll is the PC's Initiative.

Goblin gets to roll Perception.

The player gets to position his character. If the Goblin's Perception is higher than the PC's deception-Ini, the goblin manages to notice the attack at the last second, and gets to act first, without ambush bonuses.

But that's my take on it, I can't really back that up with rules-quotes.

This would devalue the PCs deception check he just made and force him to roll it again.

Paizo please clarify this. I never know when it's right to roll inititative.

When do I roll for initiative exactly? And do I reroll previously made checks?

Say a 3 goblins try to ambush a PC.

The PC walks into the ambush room and notices a goblin because his passive perception > stealth roll from one of the goblins.

The goblins don't know that he has spotted one.

The PC wants to deceptively walk to the gobblin he spotted (so the goblin doesnt notice anything is up) and then strike him first.

I let the PC make a deception roll vs the passive perception of the goblins.

The goblins dont notice that the PC knows where one of them is so they still wait.

The pc gets close to the one goblin he saw.

He wants to initiate combat.

How to proceed?

Starfox wrote:

The way I read it, you can use Stealth before initiative, as long as you are not interacting with anyone. Moving into position and the like are legit. A failed Stealth check in this situation triggers initiative.

So what if there are Goblins in a room waiting to ambush the full party.

Let's say a rogue PC sneaks in first to scout the room.

He fails his Stealth check vs. the goblins.

The goblins know that one guy is in their room, but they want to hold their action until the rest of the party is in.

According to your interpretation combat would have to start as soon as the PC fails his check.

This is my take on the problem:

Sensing unseen Danger (Hazards or ambushing enemies) in exploration mode:

PC not searching / seeking
rolls secret perception against stealth DC of a Danger
if Danger stealth proficiency is untrained!

PC searching / seeking
rolls secret perception against stealth DC of Danger
if PC perception proficiency matches or is above stealth proficiency of Danger

(based on p341 Rulebook “Detecting a Hazard”)

For creatures stealth proficiency is treated as follows:
lvl 3 - trained,
lvl 5 - expert,
lvl 9 - master,
lvl 17 - legendary

(based on p23 Bestiary “Skills, Perception, Proficiency”)

On success of secret PC perception roll Danger becomes sensed

(based on p317 Rulebook “Searching (exploration)” and p308 Rulebook “Seek (combat)”)

Combat starts if
1. A Danger reaction / free action gets triggered
2. Combat is initiated by PCs before the Danger gets triggered

If combat is initiated by a triggered Danger
the reaction / free action is executed before combat.

(based on p340 Rulebook “Triggering a Hazard”)

In this case the Danger will roll stealth for initiative.

If combat is initiated by PCs before a Danger is triggered
roll initiative for the Danger based on skills you see fit (stealth, perception etc.)

I disagree with Captain Morgans solution in the way, that I do not see the ambushing monsters taking an active role before the battle starts.
For me an ambush is a trap where monsters set up and wait to strike at the party. That's why I treat it like a complex hazard and justify using the appropriate rules.

Therefore the monsters should not have to roll a stealth check vs. a perception DC, when a PC enters the ambush area. The PC as the active role has to roll perception.

If the scenario was different, let's say a monster was sneaking up on a party, the active role would be on the monster. In that case I would make the monster roll a stealth check vs. the PCs Perception DCs.

I recently dove into PF2 rules and I stumbled upon a few things that I don't understand regarding hazards. On page 342 of the rulebook it states:

Stealth DC (p.342 Playtest Rulebook)

This is the hazard’s Stealth DC, which it uses to avoid
being detected. A complex hazard instead lists its Stealth
modifier for rolling initiative, followed by a DC if there’s
a chance someone might detect it.

1. So does that mean that a complex hazards such as

Quicksand (p.18 Playtest Bestiary),
The Iron Maiden Trap (p.18),
The Wheel of Misery (p.19)
or the Lava Flame Tube (p.19)

that have no Stealth DC are undetectable?

2. Complex hazards roll initiative with Stealth, but why does it for instance say Stealth +11 (trained) on the Quicksand hazard, or Stealth +12 (expert) on the Iron Maiden Trap?

Why is this information (trained, expert, legendary) relevant, if the Stealth modifier is only used for initiative and NOT for detecting the trap?