Do any of you bring the D&D "Blood War" between the Demons of the Abyss and the Devils of Hell into your Pathfinder campaigns as a way to explain why the fiends of the lower planes haven't overrun the upper planes yet? If so, did you expand this war to include the other races of fiends in any way?
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It isn't an organized war like in D&D, but a conflict is still going on, based on the difference in alignment. However, whereas D&D had the NE outsiders as mercenaries to both sides,in Pathfinder demons and devil's will actually team up to put down a daemon threat.
Yup, I'm aware of canon Pathfinder lore regarding relations between fiends. I'm asking if anyone did anything different?
I pretty much had all the fiendish races fighting each other with the Daemons (and enlisted or enslaved Div) sending massive hordes into both the Abyss and Hell in order to bring death, oblivion, and suffering to the Multiverse.
The Devils and Demons would send their own armies into Abaddon to retaliate and also to fight each other while fighting their own internal threats (other powers of the Abyss for the Demons and the Asura for the Devils).
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Do any of you bring the D&D "Blood War" between the Demons of the Abyss and the Devils of Hell into your Pathfinder campaigns as a way to explain why the fiends of the lower planes haven't overrun the upper planes yet? If so, did you expand this war to include the other races of fiends in any way?
No. As far as I am concerned, the Blood War is a solution to a non-existent problem.
I also don't worry about why the world is not overrun with the exponential growth of spawn-creating undead, how the myriad of large carnivores find enough to eat, and why resurrection magic seems to have zero impact on world history and culture.
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The way I explain it as a GM, the reasons fiends haven't already conquered/destroyed everything are because
- Various fiends like to plot power plays between their own kind,
- Celestials, not having to worry about that and being more content to let mortals figure things out for themselves, are more organized in frustrating their efforts,
- Nobody, with the possible exception of daemons, wants an Outer God to accidentally obliterate everyone,
- Neutral Outsiders probably won't want fiends taking them over, at least,
- There are plenty of mortals who actually don't want any Outsiders telling them what to do, and are able to figure out who's taking orders from an imp or something, and break out the silver-plated maces.
Though, as a player, I actually figure if I have a Hellknight character, he'll want the forces of Hell to start a war with the forces of the Abyss, in the hopes that it'd take their attention away from meddling in the Material Plane and toward each other. He might even ask the other PCs for suggestions on what to name this theoretical conflict.
Do any of you bring the D&D "Blood War" between the Demons of the Abyss and the Devils of Hell into your Pathfinder campaigns...?
Nope. I never liked the "Blood War" concept to begin with, and was glad to not have to write it out of my PF campaign.
I agree with Berselius in that something like the Blood War is needed in order to maintain the balance of power. This is mostly due to the Pathfinder writers deep love of writing about the lower planes and the various semi divine fiends. Much less has been written about the upper planes and it always seems to me that empyreal lords as written are rarely proactive, with a small handful of exceptions. Almost nothing has been written about the powerful outsiders of the neutral planes that I'm aware of.
I regard the blood war as one of the most stupid artefacts of D&D lore... I might have understood a Modron vs Slaad war, but a demon vs devil one? no way
a) they are far too busy with their own internecine wars and plots
b) they'd have to conquer the 3 separate lower planes separating the Abyss from the Nine Hells, and the Daemons/Yougoloths, who, by thte way, are quite powerful enough to hold their own, or even conquer such foes would not let them... as it is, they let them exist separately and independently because they do better for the cause of Ultimate Evil that way, but if they started warring against each other, be sure the yugoloths would do all their mighty possible to redirect their aggressive impulses against more worthy targets rather than abet such improductive waste of resources by acting as mercenaries.
So, when I'm DMing, the Blood War simply does not exist, at worst, the Demons and Devils try to outdo/foil each others via pawns on the material planes... but there certainly are no wars along the banks of the Styx.
There is a bit of a blood war already going on- the backstory of the Demon Lord Baphomet implies that demons do raids on hell for glory (and it obviously doesn't go that well for them).
But generally, internal strife within the plane is portrayed as the larger issue for demons (there is a whole story about how Desna killed a demon lord, and Calistria had to play politics to prevent the demon lord from coming together as a united front).
I am not quite sure what stops Asmodeus, other than the principle "a job worth doing is a job worth doing right". Well, that and the random high power curveballs like rovagug or the outer gods.
I generally run the game as if the Abyss is always in conflict. Between themselves, all the other planes, and the realms Beyond (where the things that preexisted creation dwell). The Abyss is the largest plane, it touches and surrounds every other plane (except Heaven, the Maelstrom does the surrounding there). If the Abyss were to focus all their power on one target, that target would likely be obliterated, except so would the powers in the Abyss, as all their other enemies seize that moment.
Yeah, the Abyss is scary in my games.
It's probably worth noting that Asmodeus actively focuses his efforts on conquering the Prime Material - but the Prime Material is infinite in scope, meaning the task itself is an infinite undertaking. (And of course a quite daunting task as well - only of the strongest of devils can stand against giants, dragons, krakens, high level mortals, etc.)
While the Night Queen Eisieth is actually really angry that Asmodeus spends so much resources on the Prime Material - she wants to overthrow Moloch, seize its authority, and devote all of those resources to conquering Heaven. (Which is also an infinite plane, and thus a different infinite undertaking. Even if Eisieth breached the gates, she'd need eternity to penetrate all the way to the summit.)
If you wanted a Blood War situation in Pathfinder, it'd probably involve Lamashtu and Asmodeus going into another "hot" phase against each other - Lamashtu might have a specific stretch of Hell she's trying claim (probably because of its tied to a specific creature that intrigues her, like the Barghest realm), while Asmodeus might want to "rescue" the enormous mortal population in Lamashtu's realm for relocation and re-education.
And yes, I do suspect that the entirety of Hell v. Lamashtu's realm is probably an even match-up. Lamashtu is bad, bad news.
The bottom line of any real war in the Outer Planes should relate to mortal souls, because that's what determines your realm's growth and longevity. Territory acquisition in of itself does nothing if you don't have the means to retain it.
(There's also the matter that lawful evil and chaotic evil souls need to go somewhere; if Hell or the Abyss was somehow destroyed, a new plane could well form to accommodate those souls.)
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Pretty sure the Maelstrom is legit infinite - it encompasses everything else. XD
Depends on how its feeling that day. Some days, I am sure it is feeling in a "size of a small park" kind of mood.
IIRC, didn't the Great Beyond sourebook state that only the Abyss and the Material were actually infinite in size? I do not believe Hell or Heaven are even close to being infinite. They are constantly growing with the...
In printed content, both in The Great Beyond, and in subsequent books, only the Maelstrom and the Abyss are described as being actually infinite.
I never bothered with having demons, devils, and "daemons" fight in order to explain why they haven't taken over.
Ultimately evil is by its very nature destructive, including to itself. The closest humans come to being pure evil is antisocial personality disorder, aka psychopathy. Without a conscience, these people also totally lack anything resembling good judgement, and so routinely screw themselves and everyone around them over for what they think of as short term gains, but it always bites them in the butt eventually.
Basically, true evil is destructive, even to its own goals of selfish desires. Thus, you don't need to make demons, devils etc fight each other, they will do that on their own, and they will never get anywhere with their goals. Imagine the hiring problem they would have, you could never trust your subordinates to do their jobs, they'd be too busy shafting each other to get ahead. Interestingly, the tv series Supernatural somewhat explores this topic, with Crowley and various demons running around.
I always found the blood war to be one of things that contributed to D&D settings feeling "small". This idea of Devil and Demons being these monoliths that are just at war with each other lacks nuance
I much prefer Pathfinder's complexity in the outer planes. The Abyss alone is filled with many groups of outsiders as well as different factions of demons. It feels like an infinite realm of chaos.
I ignored the Blood War completely when I ran a D&D campaign set in Greyhawk, and I have no desire to incorporate it into Golarion. It just never made any sense to me in D&D cosmology.
Well... Demons have Qlippoth to mess with right at home. Two forms of Chaotic Evil that absolutely despise one another- without getting into Demon on Demon conflict (Look at Lamashtu and Pazuzu: They aren't teaming up to take on the good guys at all). And the Demodands have their own rules as well.
Likewise, Devils don't have a monopoly on Hell- while they're shorter on in-house betrayals than their D&D versions, they have to deal with the Queens of the Night (who may be playing by Asmodeus' rules for now, but Eiseth, at least, has Plans), Asuras, Velstracs/Kytons (yeah, they're mostly on the Shadow Plane these days, but not exclusively)...
I always wondered something: Why is there a difference between demons, devils, and "daemons"? According to real world lore, demons are demons, they are all evil and their regard toward law or independence wasn't recorded beyond what an individual demon was like. Why turn them into different factions in the first place? Don't they all effectively have the same goal in mind, that is, destruction/corruption etc?
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Well... Demons have Qlippoth to mess with right at home. Two forms of Chaotic Evil that absolutely despise one another- without getting into Demon on Demon conflict (Look at Lamashtu and Pazuzu: They aren't teaming up to take on the good guys at all).
Well, the Great Wheel cosmology has this conflict as well, between the Tanar'ri and the Obyriths (qlippoths are totally just the Pathfinder conversion/adaptation of obyriths.)
I always wondered something: Why is there a difference between demons, devils, and "daemons"?
Well, they are different fiendish beings from different cultures (daemons are their own thing).
When they were initially coming up with the planar cosmology of D&D, the idea was that there was a plane that corresponded with each alignment. Outsiders were made for each to fit, and they were just kinda' arbitrarily chosen.
Given what we know about real world examples of human evil, you'd think most evil outsiders would have a VERY low Wisdom score, and terribly bad judgement. They'd be impulsive in the extreme.
Well, the Great Wheel cosmology has this conflict as well, between the Tanar'ri and the Obyriths (qlippoths are totally just the Pathfinder conversion/adaptation of obyriths.)
When the Blood War debuted, Obyriths either weren't a thing, or were so different that the retcon has warped my memory...
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Well, the Great Wheel cosmology has this conflict as well, between the Tanar'ri and the Obyriths (qlippoths are totally just the Pathfinder conversion/adaptation of obyriths.)When the Blood War debuted, Obyriths either weren't a thing, or were so different that the retcon has warped my memory...
You're not wrong. Obyriths were defined in 3.5, though it was retconned that many of the non-tanar'ri demons were Obyriths or Obyrith lords, a primordial class of demons pre-dating the tanar'ri.
That would be a comforting take on evil if it were true, and I am sure Asmodeus would be most pleased if everyone in Golarion believed that all evil was really as you describe, it would make it much easier for organised evil to stay under the radar until it was ready to strike.
Ultimately evil is by its very nature destructive, including to itself. The closest humans come to being pure evil is antisocial personality disorder, aka psychopathy. Without a conscience, these people also totally lack anything resembling good judgement, and so routinely screw themselves and everyone around them over for what they think of as short term gains, but it always bites them in the butt eventually.Basically, true evil is destructive, even to its own goals of selfish desires.
In the real world, it is actively true. It's a counterproductive exercise to be selfish to the point of destructiveness. Ultimately you end up screwing yourself over, and you end up with short terms gains only to lose everything.
^Our world has plenty of examples of tyrants that managed to hold on long enough to do more damage to everyone else than was ever done to them, and sometimes even hang on to the end of their natural lifespan.
No argument there, but my point is that limiting your definition of real-world evil to destructive selfishness, rather than, say, active selfless commitment to an evil ideology, only serves the interests of the latter forms of evil.In the real world, it is actively true. It's a counterproductive exercise to be selfish to the point of destructiveness. Ultimately you end up screwing yourself over, and you end up with short terms gains only to lose everything.
That would be a comforting take on evil if it were true, and I am sure Asmodeus would be most pleased if everyone in Golarion believed that all evil was really as you describe, it would make it much easier for organised evil to stay under the radar until it was ready to strike.
Uhm, the terms "selfless" and "evil" are mutually exclusive. Remember, evil really IS wholly selfish, even though it makes excuses and doesn't call it evil, but it is still evil when looked at objectively.
I think you are using a definition of "evil" incompatible with the very concept of Lawful Evil, then. Selfless dedication, with integrity, to an evil end is something that entirely fits with that alignment, and there's no lack of real-world examples, or indeed examples in Golarion.
Uhm, the terms "selfless" and "evil" are mutually exclusive.
Nope. Selfless dedication is incompatible with evil alignments. And yes, I can cite real world examples too. Want some? Getting lots of kickbacks of money while you hose over the nation, that's evil, but these jokers justify it in lots of different ways. How to tell if it's evil is easy. Look around. If you see a lot of misery as a result of this person, then you know it's evil.
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Well, in my homebrew the Blood War is going strong, but I changed a lot of things. For instance, I made Tiamat Chaotic and Empress of Chaos, merged Abyss with Far Realm and Chaos and added some of the Warhammer concepts to the game.
The mightiest of the champions of law were the Twin Serpents: Jazirian, winged and feathered, who dedicated herself to the cause of Good; and Asmodeus, scaled and forked of tongue, who became the embodiment of evil. When Asmodeus took Jazirian's tail in his mouth and she did the same with his, they formed a circle and demarcated the planes from the original Chaos, that will eventually become known as the Far Realm.
After uncounted aeons, the Twin Serpens started to struggle for the supremacy of the Good or Evil. Eventually, they tore themselves apart.
Jazirian flew to the heavens and Asmodeus fell to hell. That fall was so deep that he fractured the plane of hell into nine parts.
But the multiverse functions by the Law of Three. It is not known why. At the time that Jazirian and Asmodeus formed ouroboros there were other entities who watched from the swirling mas of Chaos. One of those was their unnamed sister, who took the shape of serpent with what would later be known as humanoid upper body. She was filled with envy and hatred because Asmodeus rejected her, favoring their winged sister. That entity remained in the Chaos, birthing other beings and positioning herself as the ultimate enemy of Asmodeus and his offspring, born from his blood as he fell to the depths of hell. She became known as the Empress of Chaos and that was the real cause of the Blood War...
Empress of Chaos
The third sibling that has risen from the primordial chaos later became known as Tiamat. As Asmodeus became the lord of Hell, so she became the goddess of evil dragons, but Asmodeus' rejection stings her still, so her malevolent mind is the driving force behind the Blood War. She would love nothing more than to tear down all of Creation are return it to the chaos that spawned her and her siblings.
I can understand merging the Abyss and Far Realm. Both are pretty evil. Never really understood why Hell and the Abyss were separate though, merely because one was LE and the other CE. I don't get why daemons are a thing, however. They do the same stuff that demons etc do.
Dunno about that. Evil alignments never fail to make sure their proverbial beak gets wet. In other words, they never fail to take care of themselves well by screwing over others around them.
You have to understand that Evil people simply do not think of themselves as evil. They don't consider the context, the net effect of their actions. They don't have that level of forethought or empathy.
They think of themselves as somehow justified in being destructive. They invent various reasons, but it always comes down to their wants and needs being far more important than everyone else's to the point of not giving a damn that people were murdered or lives ruined etc on a global scale for their benefit.
You want me to cite real world sources?
I was always split on the Blood War. I don't consider it needed nor do I think it makes much sense. It still is a cool setting to have some giant cosmic war around going for high level adventuerers to visit though.
I always wondered something: Why is there a difference between demons, devils, and "daemons"? According to real world lore, demons are demons, they are all evil and their regard toward law or independence wasn't recorded beyond what an individual demon was like. Why turn them into different factions in the first place? Don't they all effectively have the same goal in mind, that is, destruction/corruption etc?
OD&D didn't have Good vs Evil it only had Law, Neutral Chaos and Demons were the only creatures included there.
Gygax added Devil's with the first Monster Manual in 1977 and mentioned them before in a Dragon Magazine article, when he introduced the 9 alignments.John Milton's Paradise Lost has a similar split beetween the Devils led by Satan and some abyss of darkness ruled by Chaos. Chaos here even has the D&D demon princes Orcus and Demogorgon standing beside him, therefore I guess this might have been an inspriation for that fix.
In case I were ever to make my own world setting, I have been toying with the idea of the worlds(*) being in the process of differentiating or restoring a Good-Evil axis in addition to the more established Law-Chaos axis.
(*)In this setting, the end of the world is not a prophecy -- it has already happened, several times, with worlds (including the current one) having been settled by refugees from previous ones, and with highly significant cases of existing residents being none too happy about this . . . .
Yes, but not to explain the fiendish overrun.
In my campaign, the lord of Hell (Balthazar) is possesed by a mythic mortal (Roy Firebinder) in order to battle Azatoth (god of destruction and creation) in an attempt to stop Azatoth from destroying and recreating the known world. Roy Firebinder is now the new ruler of Hell, but in the process, a bit of Balthazar's essence escaped to the material plane and is now rebuilding strength and power to take back his throne.
In order to gain more power, and weakening Roy Firebinder, Balthazar is manipulating devils, demons, and daemons, resulting in blood wars. He'll talk the 4 horseman into raiding the material plain on "Orders of Roy Firebinder", which will lead to assault from the abyss and Hell into Abaddon. During these wars, the legions of Hell will deminish, and more and more devils will flock to the old ruler of Hell, Balthazar.
^For some reason I picture Roy Firebinder as some nerd living on Earth . . . .
^For some reason I picture Roy Firebinder as some nerd living on Earth . . . .
If only XD
He was quite the evil baddy before possesing the lord of hell. Hell, he even killed, inculding but not limited to, his own father, laughed in his grandpa's face when he told he killed his son, murdered some orphans as a "diversion", murderder those who opposed him...all at the age of 16 XD
Wow, that is one EeeeeEEeeeeeEEEeevIL nerd . . . .