| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fairly confident that flavor is a key element in making a rule system fun to play. This is a more controversial statement than you might expect because we will never all agree on what flavor is important, and what can be left out or refluffed at individual tables. It becomes very easy for us to sacrifice flavor (which might not be everyone's cup of tea anyway) to achieve some elegant system that solves a numbers problem.
We all have good imaginations. We can add whatever window dressing we need after the fact to make a robust system somehow fit our narratives. I argue that this approach is backwards and loses sight of the fact that rules are supposed to help us tell the stories we want to tell, not force our stories to change to support those rules.
From my posting history, it's obvious that I'm concerned that Resonance is an example of sacrificing or altering flavor to solve a numbers problem. I've gone into plenty of detail elsewhere, so I'll leave it at that.
My question is: What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Here are some examples that should reveal what I mean by flavor and mechanics clashing. Don't get hung up on whether these are actual rules in PF2e. Some might not appear to be a problem at all.
1. Players find the legendary sword and pull it from its stone, then immediately strip its enchantments off to evenly spread out among them.
2. A player is gifted a circlet from the time of the old elves, that grants its wearer the ability to see into the past. Since they already have a hat they like, they decide to transfer the circlet's power to a ring instead.
3. The heroes return from the depths of the old dwarven ruin carrying hard won arms and armor. They sell it all and buy more appropriate gear from the well stocked magical item merchant.
4. The powerful wizard throws crackling bolt of lightning one after another at the demon, until he is spent. He then rummages through his bag to pull out a sheaf of scrolls to cast from for the rest of the fight.
5. The queen of the elves gives each member of the party a boon to help on their journey. One player receives a vial of fluid that shines brightly and is instructed to drink it "when you have exhausted your talents and no hope remains". They drink it and it has 50% chance of taking effect.
6. The fighter hits the ground, bleeding out, but the fight has ended. The cleric rushes to cast a powerful heal, but is stopped by the rogue: "Wait, use the wand. Save your spells for when danger is near."
7. The party arrives in the largest city in the land, fresh from battle with a dragon. They head to the magic item merchant and say "We want scrolls of every known spell, and twelve wands of healing" They plunk a bag of platinum coins worth more than half the city on the table and say to keep the change.
8. The paladin, after selling his share of the loot from the necromancer and buying a new shield decides to donate the rest of the money to his church. "Wait," says the wizard. "You're going to screw up our expected wealth. Save it to buy more gear later."
My personal opinions:
A. Treasure found in a dungeon should have meaning beyond a resale value.
B. Gold should be a valued resource at all levels of play, and spending it on things other than personal power should not unduly disrupt the game, and there should be things to spend it on beyond personal power.
C. Wizards should have something magical to do all the time
D. There should be unique items that can't be found for sale or craft at all levels of play.
E. If you have acquired a magic item for a purpose ahead of time, you should be able to use it for that purpose when the time comes.
F. The Magic Mart should be limited
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was glad to move away from a lot of those issues when I moved from ad&d to 3.x I don't want to move back to the dark ages where I'm at the whim of a random table telling me what items I have, or worse GM whimsy.
A) why? Why does finding it in a dungeon make it More meaningful (especially when randomly determined).
B) I can get behind.
C) nope, wizards should run out of power, it's their schtick.
D) maybe, unless it's to keep stuff out of players hands.
E) absolutely agree.
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe there is already some big items like Holy Avenger and The Gauntlet that have awesome powers but not based on runes, so there is room for unique stuff that you can't just disassemble.
I'm one of the few magic mart haters here, so I agree with a lot of what you said. Granted, I actually like point 4) with the Wizard having to pull out the emergency resources when things get serious.
Granted, the Dwarven ruin example is a tough one. THey are likely to find a lot of gear than only Dwarves can equip and will really not have a lot to do with it. However, if I had to send my players to this dungeon, it would not be to "loot", so they might as well ignore a lot of the gear thei find.
To solve the issue of players being unable to get rid of items that are useless to them, it might be a good idea to avoid dropping gear that they can't use at all, even if it is an AP! Convert to the closest equivalent that they can use. For example, don't drop Ring of Protection when all 3 already have one, or a magic weapon nobody can use.
Finally, I think people do use WBL guidelines far too strictly, and yes, I do track WBL for my players.
For example, if a Paladin donates their money or refuses a reward, It shouldn't be counted against them and you soon drop them something they can equip to make up for it.
Remember the WBL is actually based on the random rolls you all hate (I don't do random rolls tho). The worth of these rolls is averaged for the number and difficulty of encounters expected before a level up and the result is WBL table. Granted, it is a helpful number to know if you're dropping too much or too little.
A. In theory, I agree with you and it's certainly a common trope that the hero wrestles a great treasure from a terrible foe and then uses it, but it fails to address the problem of obsolescence. What do we do with stuff that has become obsolete as we level? In the past, before stuff could be sold, pcs would trailer around with a page of stuff they had collected, 2/3 of which was obsolete. If the endurance rules were enforced, they would have died under the weight of it. In the past, I have created special artefacts that give lesser powers at lower levels and greater powers at higher levels to address this, which seemed to work. Giving something a name or a history personalises it as makes it a story. Giving it a description (e.g.+1 keen scimitar) makes it a commodity.
B. This is up to the pcs/gm. The only problem occurs when one of the pcs keeps all his gold for purchasing magic, unbalancing wealth by level.End
C. Agreed. Thankfully it looks like they will have in pf2 as controls will be worth casting.
D. No problem with that, it's worked well for me before (see A)
E. That depends on whether it was given by the gm for that purpose. If it was, then certainly and the gm should ensure that it is (by gm fiat if necessary)
F. Agreed, but you only need one lenient gm to start things sliding in the wrong direction. And there are literally thousands of them out there.
I was glad to move away from a lot of those issues when I moved from ad&d to 3.x I don't want to move back to the dark ages where I'm at the whim of a random table telling me what items I have, or worse GM whimsy.
A) why? Why does finding it in a dungeon make it More meaningful (especially when randomly determined).
B) I can get behind.
C) nope, wizards should run out of power, it's their schtick.
D) maybe, unless it's to keep stuff out of players hands.
E) absolutely agree.
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.
I was mostly hoping people could use my opinions as examples. I'm not planning on going into depth to explain what amounts to personal preference. I genuinely just want to hear what people care about with regard to flavor.
Are there any bits of game flavor that you see as fundamental?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point; most of these are consistent issues with PF1 as well?
Here are some examples that should reveal what I mean by flavor and mechanics clashing. Don't get hung up on whether these are actual rules in PF2e. Some might not appear to be a problem at all.
1. Players find the legendary sword and pull it from its stone, then immediately strip its enchantments off to evenly spread out among them.
As it is now, the characters find the legendary sword, pull it from its stone, realize it's a Longsword when they've specialized in a Greatsword, and sell it so they can get the "Brilliant Energy" Enchantment on their main weapon. The secret there is to come up with feats and class abilities in such a way that they are not so married to one specific weapon that they might actually want to keep Excalibur instead of finding a buyer. If they want to keep their main weapons because they like the look and concept, that's different, but often times people sell or "break up" loot because it invalidates a lot of their work put into their characters.
2. A player is gifted a circlet from the time of the old elves, that grants its wearer the ability to see into the past. Since they already have a hat they like, they decide to transfer the circlet's power to a ring instead.
With resonance, this isn't a problem, because they can wear both circlet and hat. Might be one of the few saving graces of resonance.
3. The heroes return from the depths of the old dwarven ruin carrying hard won arms and armor. They sell it all and buy more appropriate gear from the well stocked magical item merchant.
Agreed, I tend to find resale a bit fantasy-breaking myself, it's why when I GM I try to make treasure finds somewhat appropriate to the group.
4. The powerful wizard throws crackling bolt of lightning one after another at the demon, until he is spent. He then rummages through his bag to pull out a sheaf of scrolls to cast from for the rest of the fight.
Happens in PF1 all the time.
5. The queen of the elves gives each member of the party a boon to help on their journey. One player receives a vial of fluid that shines brightly and is instructed to drink it "when you have exhausted your talents and no hope remains". They drink it and it has 50% chance of taking effect.
One way to rationalize resonance is somewhat like drug dosages. The first dose you take after a long period of on-use is quite effective; the more you take in a 24 hour period nets you a point of diminishing returns, almost to the point of adverse effects. So everyone in-universe knows that the more magic you use consistently that is concentrated into items, your body becomes temporarily "saturated." Some less-learned folk say that it is dangerous or toxic to continually use magic, but scholars know that "totemized" magics are less effective than "natural" magics, which are weaved and tapped by the individual spellcasters directly from the source.
6. The fighter hits the ground, bleeding out, but the fight has ended. The cleric rushes to cast a powerful heal, but is stopped by the rogue: "Wait, use the wand. Save your spells for when danger is near."
Happens all the time in PF1, only our order is usually (a)low-level cure spells first because at higher levels, low spells are less useful and this saves charges, (b) followed by wands, (c) followed by potions/scrolls, (d) followed by the good stuff, saved primarily for casting in the middle of combat when the chips are down.
7. The party arrives in the largest city in the land, fresh from battle with a dragon. They head to the magic item merchant and say "We want scrolls of every known spell, and twelve wands of healing" They plunk a bag of platinum coins worth more than half the city on the table and say to keep the change.
Yeah, this is religiously followed in my group, that we use the official PF "percentage chance for available goods" and "max purchase value" entries from the Pathfinder Gamemastery Guide at each city/town/village. It's not a full fix, but having that 25% chance to fail to find the item you want, or top out purchases at sub-10,000 gold pieces, helps a bit to keep everyone from having fully-stocked magic marts.
8. The paladin, after selling his share of the loot from the necromancer and buying a new shield decides to donate the rest of the money to his church. "Wait," says the wizard. "You're going to screw up our expected wealth. Save it to buy more gear later."
Strangely, I've never run into this in local campaigns, and in fact our GMs give us social interaction bonuses and other in-game perks when we do things like this. You just donated 2,000 gold to several local orphanages? You specifically have a +2 bonus on all diplomacy and bluff checks to most good-aligned churches and the common folk for the next six months.
My personal opinions:
A. Treasure found in a dungeon should have meaning beyond a resale value.
B. Gold should be a valued resource at all levels of play, and spending it on things other than personal power should not unduly disrupt the game, and there should be things to spend it on beyond personal power.
C. Wizards should have something magical to do all the time
D. There should be unique items that can't be found for sale or craft at all levels of play.
E. If you have acquired a magic item for a purpose ahead of time, you should be able to use it for that purpose when the time comes.
F. The Magic Mart should be limited
A -agreed. However, I don't ever expect the root cause of this to ever be fixed in PF, because it requires a lot more leniency in retraining or generalization of feats and class ability choices than the game can sustain.
B - Absolutely; I noted one or two ways our local groups house-rule stuff for this.
C - I think they finally got religion on this for PF2, via the cantrips and ritual castings.
D - I'm on the fence for this; perhaps an optional rule in the Core Book about banning Legendary crafting capability for a per-campaign basis?
E - I don't know in truth if resonance will survive the playtest, because of both this, and because it STILL doesn't do away with charges and uses per day.
F - Agreed, and I think what we've seen of PF2 means that it will empower the GM to better handle this via house-ruling than in PF1; I suspect we'll see tighter integration of the optional "inherent bonus" mechanics from PF unchained.
I was mostly hoping people could use my opinions as examples. I'm not planning on going into depth to explain what amounts to personal preference. I genuinely just want to hear what people care about with regard to flavor.
Are there any bits of game flavor that you see as fundamental?
Fundamental to PF? specifically, just the extreme customization of characters, as that is the biggest distinguishing characteristic of PF versus other F20 offerings.
Because most of the scenarios you posited are present in PF1, they aren't that likely to go away in PF2, because they want to keep the game with the same feel. So all the things that will encourage magic marts, selling loot, prioritization of magic items, etc. will be there, maybe differently displayed in the case of magic and resonance.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Alot of the issues raised her are centered on gear. I agree that I wish magic items had more story and coolness to them. Id rather have increased accuracy and damage baked into level/class progression then assumed in magic leveling up of your equipment.
In the end, I only need enough flavor to allow me to immerse into a fantasy themed game from PF. I dont believe that flavor requires balance sacrifice, or that flavor can achieve balance either.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point; most of these are consistent issues with PF1 as well?
Yeah, I don't believe PF1 did everything perfectly. It had lots of instances where mechanics got in the way of flavor for me. I'm asking what's important flavor wise from a edition agnostic viewpoint.
What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Alot of the issues raised her are centered on gear. I agree that I wish magic items had more story and coolness to them. Id rather have increased accuracy and damage baked into level/class progression then assumed in magic leveling up of your equipment.
In the end, I only need enough flavor to allow me to immerse into a fantasy themed game from PF. I dont believe that flavor requires balance sacrifice, or that flavor can achieve balance either.
Yeah, I realized that, for me, treasure is one of the most important ways my character interfaces with the world. From picking out a list of mundane equipment (bags of flour are a must) to getting rewarded with a magic suit of armor from the king, treasure and wealth grants me an understanding of where my character's place is in the world.
Obviously there are more viewpoints. Your response is that you want to be immersed in a fantasy themed game. What does that entail? Or are you just generally okay with anything pathfinder related no matter how it comes out?
My personal opinions:
A. Treasure found in a dungeon should have meaning beyond a resale value.
B. Gold should be a valued resource at all levels of play, and spending it on things other than personal power should not unduly disrupt the game, and there should be things to spend it on beyond personal power.
C. Wizards should have something magical to do all the time
D. There should be unique items that can't be found for sale or craft at all levels of play.
E. If you have acquired a magic item for a purpose ahead of time, you should be able to use it for that purpose when the time comes.
F. The Magic Mart should be limited
I strongly agree with all of these except C). I like to run a tough, resource-driven game, and spell casters running out of spells and having to use scrolls or even ineffectually throw daggers to survive is crucial to my world.
But YES to all the rest. I'm really dubious about these rune things making magic items into just another generic resource, instead of something special. I hate magic marts and don't allow purchase of much beyond a scroll or potion (though sometimes trade with powerful and/or terrifying personages is possible).
The thing you didn't mention that's equally important to me is preserving flavor in stuff like spell descriptions. The 3.5 Spell Compendium made spells more interesting than any of the Pathfinder books have by simply including an italics sense-based description of what's perceived when the spell is cast. I think Spell Compendium overdid this a bit and I'd limit it to one line per spell . . . but such descriptions are super-helpful to the DM when narrating the world. I could see brief little snippets of flavor for feats as well.
We wouldn't need much more than "A pea-sized dot of flame streaks toward your target and explodes in fire." (Fireball) or "The humming drone of your incantation lifts your allies' spirits and invigorates them." (Good Hope)
The spell descriptions we've seen so far are so jargon-laden they don't seem exciting to me. I don't mind the jargon as long as the game is fun, but the rules have to make the world exciting too. Little bits of sensory detail in spell descriptions can do a lot of work to make the game more exciting . . .
Why do you feel that way?
Pf2e therapy sessions. Cool.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why do you feel that way?
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.
You mean why would you actually want to have your WBL in a usable form? WHy would you want equipment usable by your party? Gee, I don't know why someone would feel that way... :P
Slightly less snarky reply: It's not fun to carry around a bag of magic doodads and trinkets you can't use while you're all decked out in mundane gear.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've played a lot of 5e in those recent years, and I have to say. The magic mart is what I miss the most.
I can't put a magic +2 sword anywhere without having to consider how the hell can I insert relevant magic loot for the rest of the party.
I can't put a magic item on sale without having to worry about the price tag I assign it.
I can't avoid putting magic item for sale because money and loot have to matter for more than getting drunk at the local tavern. That gets old after a few levels.
I'm longing for a game where item have their suggested market value and with clear guidelines on expected WBL. I want a book of rules about magic items, not a book of 100 random magic items that could or could not ruin your campaign.
/5e rant
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Part of this is campaign design. For instance, if the PCs are going to find stuff in the Dwarven ruin that would be awesome if only they could use it, give them a good chance to trade with some Dwarves for something that they can use (maybe the Dwarves picked up something similar that they can't use but the PCs can).
|
|
What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Alot of the issues raised her are centered on gear. I agree that I wish magic items had more story and coolness to them. Id rather have increased accuracy and damage baked into level/class progression then assumed in magic leveling up of your equipment.
In the end, I only need enough flavor to allow me to immerse into a fantasy themed game from PF. I dont believe that flavor requires balance sacrifice, or that flavor can achieve balance either.
Yeah, I realized that, for me, treasure is one of the most important ways my character interfaces with the world. From picking out a list of mundane equipment (bags of flour are a must) to getting rewarded with a magic suit of armor from the king, treasure and wealth grants me an understanding of where my character's place is in the world.
Obviously there are more viewpoints. Your response is that you want to be immersed in a fantasy themed game. What does that entail? Or are you just generally okay with anything pathfinder related no matter how it comes out?
For me, class and character identity are the most important ways for my character to interface with the world. I'm not ok with everything PF by a long shot. I think a lot of the PF2 classes have lost their identity in favor of making them more modular. In general, this will be better for most gamers, but I think Paizo is tossing out distinction in favor of a generic class system. On the other hand, I do have a lot of hope for prestige archetypes bringing back that distinct flavor.
As for items, I dont want them to be trapped in flavor anymore than I want them trapped in expected improvement mechanics. I want cool story driven items to be a tool for the GM to use as they see fit. I dont assume my character will be awarded awesome items, but may find or acquire them through adventuring. However, engaging the world through story is its own reward.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess it's campaign dependant, such as if you are bestowing the party with large amounts of expendable cash and useless magic items.Why do you feel that way?
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.You mean why would you actually want to have your WBL in a usable form? WHy would you want equipment usable by your party? Gee, I don't know why someone would feel that way... :P
Slightly less snarky reply: It's not fun to carry around a bag of magic doodads and trinkets you can't use while you're all decked out in mundane gear.
there are campaigns where the magic items you get at level 1-3 are still useful at level 8, or level 12? All of them?
Didn't think so. While a few items remain valid most magic items have a practical lifespan before being redundant or obsolete - in my not inconsiderable experience.
I guess it's campaign dependant, such as if you are bestowing the party with large amounts of expendable cash and useless magic items.Why do you feel that way?
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.You mean why would you actually want to have your WBL in a usable form? WHy would you want equipment usable by your party? Gee, I don't know why someone would feel that way... :P
Slightly less snarky reply: It's not fun to carry around a bag of magic doodads and trinkets you can't use while you're all decked out in mundane gear.
there are campaigns where the magic items you get at level 1-3 are still useful at level 8, or level 12? All of them?
Didn't think so. While a few items remain valid most magic items have a practical lifespan before being redundant or obsolete - in my not inconsiderable experience.
But once their practical lifespan is up, are they still worth enough in terms of WBL to really care about being able to sell them readily?
(I'm not against magic marts, this particular reason just strikes me as insufficient.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess it's campaign dependant, such as if you are bestowing the party with large amounts of expendable cash and useless magic items.Why do you feel that way?
F) nope, flavour it how you will, but players need a simple way to offload unwanted items and gain other stuff.You mean why would you actually want to have your WBL in a usable form? WHy would you want equipment usable by your party? Gee, I don't know why someone would feel that way... :P
Slightly less snarky reply: It's not fun to carry around a bag of magic doodads and trinkets you can't use while you're all decked out in mundane gear.
I would find it odd to ONLY encounter foes that where clones and ONLY carried equipment that the party could use and wanted more than the equipment they have. How do you avoid unwanted items unless you go full metagame on loot? I weep for the foe that was meant for an exotic weapon that the party could use so the DM has to make it into a 'normal' one so they can avoid having to interact with magic item sales...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well I have picked up enough items that are redundant within na few levels, and sometimes you just need a couple of thousand extra to get a sweet item you'd like. The price of a magic item is rarely irrelevant.
But the bottom line is every single 1e and 2e character I had carried far too many superfluous, pointless, unnecessary, items that just sat uselessly in my inventory that I will never be persuaded to the contrary. I would walk away from a game that involves me still carrying a +1 weapon when I'm using a +3 one. Not to mention the countless characters hamstrung by the vagaries of GM whimsy means I'll always choose a game where I am in at least some control of my inventory (GM has veto over any specific items).
But to flavour, beyond general pseudo medieval, most of my desires are defined by what I don't want. Such as I don't want firearms, and I don't want technology beyond a smidge if fantasy steampunk.
As a side note, I think it's interesting that when I say "Loot found in a dungeon should have meaning beyond resale value" some people read "You can't sell loot". Or "Magic Marts should be limited" translates to "You can't buy magic items".
It goes to show how we all think in different ways and can fall into familiar thought patterns.
What if there was a more robust system for materials, such that you could reforge unique items into items you would use? The etching system previewed is similar to this, but puts all the value on the interchangeable magic attributes rather than the piece. Reforging gear has a pretty healthy presence in source material (LotR, GoT).
What if there was a meta-game currency that you acquired when you loot an item called luck or fate, that lets you come across higher tier items at the Magic Mart? Spend it to get an item you actually want, and the Magic Mart goes back to it's ordinary limited state.
I've played a lot of 5e in those recent years, and I have to say. The magic mart is what I miss the most.
I can't put a magic +2 sword anywhere without having to consider how the hell can I insert relevant magic loot for the rest of the party.
I can't put a magic item on sale without having to worry about the price tag I assign it.
I can't avoid putting magic item for sale because money and loot have to matter for more than getting drunk at the local tavern. That gets old after a few levels.I'm longing for a game where item have their suggested market value and with clear guidelines on expected WBL. I want a book of rules about magic items, not a book of 100 random magic items that could or could not ruin your campaign.
/5e rant
Very brief sidetrack but the funny thing is I'm sort of torn here. I personally detest the concept of a necessary wealth by level (though I think it's a useful optional rule) and the idea of the magic item mart, it's just all too gamey and thematically inconsistent IMO (and makes worldbuilding a headache when you have to consider how every item has larger implications). But players get disappointed when you tell them that they can't just buy large wads of magic items, and I enjoy the escalation that comes with it. Also tailor-making interesting magic items for PCs gets exhausting after a while. I think putting magic items on sale is something not to my tastes a lot of the time but unless the crafting system is up to scratch unfortunately (IMO) sort of necessary to help players feel like they have oodles of choice.
As such I think I'm just going to embrace the magic mart when the playtest rolls around. Literal roadside stalls peddling wands, holy vending machines that dispense water and flavourless gruel. Part of me hopes my players decide to be thieves and I get to run a heist in magitek cyberpunk land.
Anyways, so I'm actually contributing to the conversation:
there are campaigns where the magic items you get at level 1-3 are still useful at level 8, or level 12? All of them?Didn't think so. While a few items remain valid most magic items have a practical lifespan before being redundant or obsolete - in my not inconsiderable experience.
Given how skill feats now scale by training level, I think there's some design space for items that grow in versatility as your talent grows. This could be fun.
As for what flavour, I don't mind too much as long as it doesn't force one particular direction. Pathfinder is probably fine because Golarion is a beautifully hideous/hideously beautiful mish-mash of concepts from a large number of genres, while in 5e I suffered a lot of frustration trying to DM a world without any Forgotten Realms flavour.
Also, not to start another controversial conversation but from a world-building perspective I'm really happy with resonance as written, as it massively limits world breaking magic item abuse at the hands of nameless NPCs.
What if there was a more robust system for materials, such that you could reforge unique items into items you would use? The etching system previewed is similar to this, but puts all the value on the interchangeable magic attributes rather than the piece. Reforging gear has a pretty healthy presence in source material (LotR, GoT).
I would be totally up for my players melting down dread-artefacts to sell amulets containing shards of its power or something. This brings up another point, I think I'm cool with a rough WBL if I remember to incorporate stuff like the players smelting dragon-teeth or something.
What if there was a meta-game currency that you acquired when you loot an item called luck or fate, that lets you come across higher tier items at the Magic Mart? Spend it to get an item you actually want, and the Magic Mart goes back to it's ordinary limited state.
I like this. You can possibly get a tie in by houseruling on the hero points system.
Very brief sidetrack but the funny thing is I'm sort of torn here. I personally detest the concept of a necessary wealth by level (though I think it's a useful optional rule) and the idea of the magic item mart,As assumed, me too, and it is not really fitting with the genre - most fantasy heroes are not billionaires dripping with magic bling.
Heroes maybe not, but it sounds absolutely wonderful for villains. Preferably PC villains.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the magic mart, I have never had a literal 'mart'. I usually use the network of travelling merchants carrying specific requests. Characters are assumed to have retroactively requested specific items - so that they acquire from that one person who died without an heir 3 countries over! No piles of magic items hanging around.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the magic mart, I have never had a literal 'mart'. I usually use the network of travelling merchants carrying specific requests. Characters are assumed to have retroactively requested specific items - so that they acquire from that one person who died without an heir 3 countries over! No piles of magic items hanging around.
Yep, it works pretty much like how a character studied in their free time instead of suddenly getting a level of wizard on a fighter or how you practiced a language before you learn one with a new rank of linguistics.
Now I have run into places that had a catalog of items that could be bought that where stored off site and traded through boxes that swapped contents [magic UPS].
What if there was a more robust system for materials, such that you could reforge unique items into items you would use? The etching system previewed is similar to this, but puts all the value on the interchangeable magic attributes rather than the piece. Reforging gear has a pretty healthy presence in source material (LotR, GoT).2. A player is gifted a circlet from the time of the old elves, that grants its wearer the ability to see into the past. Since they already have a hat they like, they decide to transfer the circlet's power to a ring instead.So was that an example of something you want to see or don't want to see.
None of my examples were inherently good or bad. My personal list of preferences also makes no mention of needing magic items to keep the same form.
On the magic mart, I have never had a literal 'mart'. I usually use the network of travelling merchants carrying specific requests. Characters are assumed to have retroactively requested specific items - so that they acquire from that one person who died without an heir 3 countries over! No piles of magic items hanging around.
Yep, it works pretty much like how a character studied in their free time instead of suddenly getting a level of wizard on a fighter or how you practiced a language before you learn one with a new rank of linguistics.
Now I have run into places that had a catalog of items that could be bought that where stored off site and traded through boxes that swapped contents [magic UPS].
Both of those sound significantly worse than just having a magic shoppe in bigger cities. I'll take normal economic behavior (limited, expensive trade in luxuries) over retcons and anachronisms.
On the magic mart, I have never had a literal 'mart'. I usually use the network of travelling merchants carrying specific requests. Characters are assumed to have retroactively requested specific items - so that they acquire from that one person who died without an heir 3 countries over! No piles of magic items hanging around.
OK yeah, that's a pretty good way of handling it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Both of those sound significantly worse than just having a magic shoppe in bigger cities. I'll take normal economic behavior (limited, expensive trade in luxuries) over retcons and anachronisms.On the magic mart, I have never had a literal 'mart'. I usually use the network of travelling merchants carrying specific requests. Characters are assumed to have retroactively requested specific items - so that they acquire from that one person who died without an heir 3 countries over! No piles of magic items hanging around.
Yep, it works pretty much like how a character studied in their free time instead of suddenly getting a level of wizard on a fighter or how you practiced a language before you learn one with a new rank of linguistics.
Now I have run into places that had a catalog of items that could be bought that where stored off site and traded through boxes that swapped contents [magic UPS].
I don't get the "retcons and anachronisms". #1 agreeing things happening off scene isn't a retcon and #2 how is ANY of that something that doesn't make sense in pathfinder? The setting ranges from high fantasy to sci-fi, ninja's to pirates. Few things dont fall under it's banner. In fact, low magic/gritty seems to fit the least.
As far as the item, it's a slightly modified Chest of the Mercane [an ingame item already] that allows the user to send items to a "traveling mercane that makes its living trading magical items throughout the planes". Meeting with the mercane allows asking for items to buy. It seems a minor change to have it go to a prepared vault vs an interdimensional alien merchant.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Put me firmly in the camp of give me a good solid balanced system where styles of play feel very distinct from one another and I can add whatever flavor I want to it.
That said I like the one line italics flavor text. I may not use it but it can provide some really cool seed ideas and it's great for people who don't want to go into as much depth creating new worlds.
I really like the rune system so far. I can see them doing some really cool things with it and it could be really flavorful. I'm guessing that transferring a rune can't be done by just anyone, that sounds like a really useful craft skill. It also looks like unique materials have some really interesting interactions going on with that, so maybe reforging will be a major element.
On the magic mart issue, I only like them if they're flavorful and have story hooks. Getting magic items should always be more interesting than I find a merchant and spend x amount of gold.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fairly confident that flavor is a key element in making a rule system fun to play. This is a more controversial statement than you might expect because we will never all agree on what flavor is important, and what can be left out or refluffed at individual tables. It becomes very easy for us to sacrifice flavor (which might not be everyone's cup of tea anyway) to achieve some elegant system that solves a numbers problem.
We all have good imaginations. We can add whatever window dressing we need after the fact to make a robust system somehow fit our narratives. I argue that this approach is backwards and loses sight of the fact that rules are supposed to help us tell the stories we want to tell, not force our stories to change to support those rules.
From my posting history, it's obvious that I'm concerned that Resonance is an example of sacrificing or altering flavor to solve a numbers problem. I've gone into plenty of detail elsewhere, so I'll leave it at that.
My question is: What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Here are some examples that should reveal what I mean by flavor and mechanics clashing. Don't get hung up on whether these are actual rules in PF2e. Some might not appear to be a problem at all.
1. Players find the legendary sword and pull it from its stone, then immediately strip its enchantments off to evenly spread out among them.
2. A player is gifted a circlet from the time of the old elves, that grants its wearer the ability to see into the past. Since they already have a hat they like, they decide to transfer the circlet's power to a ring instead.
3. The heroes return from the depths of the old dwarven ruin carrying hard won arms and armor. They sell it all and buy more appropriate gear from the well stocked magical item merchant.
4. The powerful wizard throws crackling bolt of lightning one after another at the demon, until he is spent. He then rummages through his bag to pull out a...
Alignment, in all its conflicts and forms. Universal evil and good. Forces of uncaring order and unimaginable chaos.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Magic is reliable and about as well-understood as algebra or art history. That is, most people have some familiarity with the basics (or at least know it when they see it), might even Use what little they know, without necessarily having an in-depth expertise of the subject.
Everything else I can take, leave, or adjust. No real sacred cows for me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What flavor do you feel must be preserved (if any), even at the cost of added complexity or sacrificing balance?
Magic is reliable and about as well-understood as algebra or art history. That is, most people have some familiarity with the basics (or at least know it when they see it), might even Use what little they know, without necessarily having an in-depth expertise of the subject.
Everything else I can take, leave, or adjust. No real sacred cows for me.
Interestingly, my flavor is somewhat similar, but also wildly different. I tend to go with Golarion, but not the cosmology or metaphysics of Golarion. In my cosmology or metaphysics, Magic is something similar to Philosophy and Metaphysics, in that there legitimately is a thing such as a Fireball spell, but the only way to cast such a spell is to know that you are casting such a spell, and also to know what that spell entails in all aspects. If someone just makes the motions and incantations based on what they have seen, without the full knowledge of that the spell is a real, philosophical, and metaphysical entity, it won't do anything.
In some situations where certain aspects are already declared, then someone with less knowledge of the metaphysics of spellcasting can attempt to use that spell, but they can't just do it on their own, which is why Wizards use Int for their casting. For Sorcerers, the limited number of spells known means they can focus their identity or force of will on a handful of spells without having to know the complex philosophy or metaphysics of all the spells. And for Clerics, who are patrons of deities (who are a sapient presence in the conceptual realm) can gain their powers from wisdom.
As such, some of what you've said rings true, but I can't see many people using "what little they know" to equal real casters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As such, some of what you've said rings true, but I can't see many people using "what little they know" to equal real casters.
*shrug* I do. Just because you can cast bless doesn't mean heal is in your wheelhouse. And most people can probably figure out that magic can cure people, even if they get confused and expect a wizard to be able to cast [i[remove disease[/i] because they don't understand the difference in caster abilities.
Also, Spellcraft is a skill learnable by anyone. As is Knowledge (Arcana). And Craft (Alchemy).
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Magic is reliable and about as well-understood as algebra or art history. That is, most people have some familiarity with the basics (or at least know it when they see it), might even Use what little they know, without necessarily having an in-depth expertise of the subject.In what setting/world/campaign what-have-you, does that refer to, for you?
I also prefer this style of magic (though I usually liken it more to a slightly obscure harder science like Physics, or to Computer Science...computer science is probably best since most people know some of the results and how to use things but little of the underlying principles).
I find it entirely consistent with Golarion as presented.