| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Removing non-western fantasy things would be really weird of Pathfinder considering how it's got many non-western countries and multiple non-western iconics.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you limit yourself to just the main setting of the Inner Sea Golarion is much more multicultural than Tolkien's "everyone that isn't British is the bad guys" setting. Even if you somehow managed to push Vudra and Tian Xia out the Fantasy Middle East is a huge influence on how the setting functions with Qadira and Osirion as major players in Inner Sea politics.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really liked the way Diablo 3 flavoured the monk but kept it essentially wuxia. The wuxia monk doesn’t have to be at odds with a Eurocentric fantasy milieu, even if Golarion was that.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the PF2 monk is flavored like the PF1 monk, I probably won't play one. It's not badwrongfun or anything, it's just that I tend to approach fantasy as more Tolkien less anime/wuxia.
There's quite a bit more Disney than Tolkien on PF's Ranger and Paladin. Don't kid yourself.
I really liked the way Diablo 3 flavoured the monk but kept it essentially wuxia. The wuxia monk doesn’t have to be at odds with a Eurocentric fantasy milieu, even if Golarion was that.
I really enjoy the Monk as a class, and have adapted it to a plethora of settings.
– Straight-up warrior mystics.
- Ghost-walkers, people who take the aspect of spirits, gaining their litheness, speed, stamina.
- Straight-up Jedi.
- Nomadic warriors.
- Avatars of deities.
Dunno, I think that if people think "Monks are anime", they either don't want to do the research and lack the imagination to apply it to their own setting.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
For one of several examples of non-eastern monks in Pathfinder, Cheliax (y'know, Venice-Meets-Imperial-Britain and somehow even more evil than both of those things) has an order of Monks who get their tricks from studying barbazus. This mostly involves learning to impale people with your bare hands.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you know I think some people wishes friar tuck one of the monk archtypes but the point of making monk with cleric based fluff is either kinda hard but but i kinda like to atleast read about it.
I did it in PF1e with Friar Featherby. He was a drunken master, qi gong jing, weapon adept who despite his portly size was quite nimble. He used a quarterstaff as his main weapon and was not above imbibing some liquid courage before a fight. He fought dirty for all that was just and good, often tripping foes before stomping on their head. He was genuinely a good soul, but had little patience to learn the convoluted prayers of the clerical sorts and constantly had to say a dozen hail razme's in pennance for his acts. His superiors were besides thenselves with what to do with Featherby and so eventually he was sent to preach to the needy in small backwater towns.
So long as Monks still fill their QuidEst-defined niche of "the martials that can beat people up while playing the flute", then I'm happy.
Dunno, I think that if people think "Monks are anime", they either don't want to do the research and lack the imagination to apply it to their own setting.
Some euro-centric influenced monks:
I really liked the flavor of "Oath-bound" in Arcana Unearthed by Monte Cooke. People that would swear an oath for temporary power was very interesting to me. It didn't quite gel, but still, it told an interesting story. I could see an entire peasant army rising up in the space of a day with that class.
In my old college campaign, Monks acted as a praetorian guard in the setting's theocracy because they were in theory neutral among the various competing religions. Their lack of weapons and armor allowed them to blend into a household's staff until the last possible moment, or go into another church's territory completely unarmed and unarmored but still battle ready.
Another monk character I had took the Thief-Acrobat prestige class and would have made a better scout than the rogue if she'd been able to detect traps. I only played a few sessions with her, but I liked her so much I wrote the beginnings of a novel starring her as a class assignment (the class dubbed her "Ninja Granny").
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For me the large aesthetic appeal of the Monk is that it lets me plausibly build the protagonist (or antagonist) in more or less any Shaw Bros. film, but that does put it at odds with how sometimes these folks have little to do with the Monastic lifestyle, and indeed sometimes that's one of the major plot points of the film (e.g. Eight-Diagram Pole Fighter, Return to the 36th Chamber, Executioners of Shaolin, etc.)
Like "Come Drink With Me" is a seminal work in the genre, but Cheng Pei-Pei's Golden Swallow knows kung fu because she's a general's daughter, not because she put in time at Shaolin (I don't think they took ladies), but is nonetheless party to esoteric fighting wisdom.
| 19 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok I'm going to try not to go on a rant here but this is touching on a couple of subjects I have a lot of interest in.
In a lot of ways this is a translation problem. Ki or chi or qi all share a similar dirivation. For years they were mistranslated as meaning energy but a direct translation is closer to breath or hot air. When you actually practice both eastern a western martial arts the chi based power you are gaining is exactly the same as being told to exhale on a punch in boxing or breating correctly when you're lifting weights.
Eastern a western martial arts can have far fewer differnces between them than some martial arts from the same area of the world do and both have the same amount of superstitious bullshido in their history. Savate, a French martial art and Tae Kwon Do from Korea use very similar techniques, because they both focus on using the legs as a weapon and human bodies all function in primarily the same way. They were even developed around the same time. Pankration, a form an ancient Greek barehanded fighting is incredibly similar to Shuai Jiao, or Mongolian wrestling and with Sambo, incorporating striking and throwing and using the ground as a weapon.
Systema, a modern Russian martial art drawn from a rich background of older Russian styles uses 'Psychic Energy' to manipulate their opponents perceptions and dissapear from their sight or strike them unexpectedly, which is remarkably similar to some of the discussion of the abilities of Kwai Chang Kaine above. (Note, I trained with these guys once and it's a neat little perception trick they use to do it. It's not magic though.)
Because of this, in the real world a 'Monk'/martial artist is a specialized fighter with a bit of an esoteric background from just about any country. That's not how it should be in the game though. Clearly the Monk needs a place of it's own, which means imbracing the superstitious elements of martial arts in a way that the fighter doesn't, but those superstitious elements can come from any country. The idea that these things didn't exist in some sort of mythical mideval europe that also happens to have thousand year old elves seems rediculous to me(You think none of them in that long a time ever decided to invent a fighting style just to escape boredom?)
I have a serious issue with the idea of the monk being seen as an eastern only archtype. Treating it that way is 'Exoticism' of eastern martial arts and a lack of understanding of them and of the history of western martial arts.
If you want to play a Tolkien based fantasy, great! Do it! I'll make a character in it. Swarthy and dark skinned like Aragorn is discribed in the books, decended from Numinor and so very Mediterainian because Tolkien based that culture on the Atlantis myth. She'll be a student of a long line, who passed down a Pancration like art from generation to generation. And who is definitely a monk.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Standing ovation for @Wolfism.
Contributor
|
I feel like the Hungry Ghost from PF1 would have worked well as an Ustalav style; it’s a shame if took so long to come online and had problems taking thematically appropriate styles (iirc).
As it happens...
However, if the Monk was broadened to include more thematic backgrounds, I might decide to play one. Catholic monks didn't exactly fight, but I imagine that in Golarian there could be western-style monks who fought, and I might even play one.
The traditions of Catholic monks could be turned into useful class feats.
Manuscript Illumination
Monk Class Feat
Religious art on spell pages grants you access to divine magic.
You gain a spellbook in which you can scribe orisons from the cleric spell list that begins with one orision of your choice. You may inscribe other cleric orisions into it using the usual rules for adding spells to a spellbook. If you lose the book, you may start another. Once a day, you may prepare two spells from the spellbook, plus an additional spell for every three levels of monk you possess, and cast the spell like a cleric would. Your caster level for these spells is your monk level.
Improved Manuscript Illumination
Monk Class Feat
Prerequisite: Manuscript Illumination, Monk 4
Your religious craft provides further enlightenment about divine spellcasting.
You may inscribe 1st-level cleric spells in your spellbook from Manuscript Illumination following the usual rules for adding spells to spellbooks. You can prepare and cast one 1st-level spell at monk 4th level plus another spell for every three monk levels past 4th level.
Reference Librarian
Monk Class Feat
Your book learning provides insights into persuading people.
While you carry a book directly related to a Knowledge skill (one Knowledge area per book), you are trained in that Knowledge skill. Whenever you would make a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive check related to a single creature, you may first attempt a DC 20 Knowledge check using the Knowledge skill that would identify that creature. If successful, gain a +2 insight bonus to the Bluff, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive check.
Monastery Gardener
Monk Class Feat
Growing plants sparked your interest in the uses of those plants.
You are trained in Craft for alchemy, baskets, books, cloth, clothing, and cooking. If you have spent a month tending a garden and attempt a Craft check or Healing check using an ingredient from the garden, you gain a +2 item bonus to that check.
Charity Herbalist
Druid, Monk, or Ranger Class Feat
Herb lore provides inexpensive healing.
A DC 10 Survival check while gathering herbs in the wilderness for one hour lets you create a Natural Healing Salve. You can also gather from a garden tended by a Monastery Gardener. Applying a natural healing salve for ten minutes allows a DC 15 Healing check to heal 1d6+Wis damage from the target. A natural healing salve loses its ability after 48 hours. A fresh natural healing salve has a price of 1 gp, if available.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd definitely like the monk to lose its eastern flavour. Rename ki pool to spiritual reserve and you can have a ki monk, a priestly monk or even a psychic monk.
It's like the samurai. It's defining feature is the challenge, and yet a knight of a royal court could easily have the same class feature, or a gunslinger from the Mana Wastes. I'd rather challenge be a fighter class feat that any fighter can get. A samurai could simply be an archetype that swaps out tower shield proficiency for an exotic weapon proficiency.
They were the first edition they appeared in. Everything changed in AD&D2e and we've had the current bard ever since.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I changed my mind from earlier.
Let's not file the serial numbers off the monk, because frankly it's kind of weird to expect the monk to lose its cultural trappings, but Paladins are still supposed to be Catholic styled Crusaders and Chevaliers.
It's 2018, let's stop pretending that it's okay to whitewash a game setting because people's imaginations for fantasy don't extend beyond white folks from Europe circa-Middle Ages.
I'll be Bruce Lee, you be Gandalf and together we're gonna fight Dracula! Cool? Cool.
Actually, I changed my mind from earlier.
Let's not file the serial numbers off the monk, because frankly it's kind of weird to expect the monk to lose its cultural trappings, but Paladins are still supposed to be Catholic styled Crusaders and Chevaliers.
It's 2018, let's stop pretending that it's okay to whitewash a game setting because people's imaginations for fantasy don't extend beyond white folks from Europe circa-Middle Ages.
I'll be Bruce Lee, you be Gandalf and together we're gonna fight Dracula! Cool? Cool.
This reminds me of a meme I saw last month, People of Color in Fantasy (http://blackyouthproject.com/comic-stop-pretending-theres-no-room-for-peopl e-of-color-in-the-fantasy-realm/). To have a wide-ranging player base, we ought to let people bring their own backgrounds into the game, and those backgrounds are not necessarily white European.
I prefer that rather than filing off the cultural cues of the monk, we mix together many cultures like a twist ice cream cone that contrasts two flavors.
In a lot of ways this is a translation problem. Ki or chi or qi all share a similar dirivation. For years they were mistranslated as meaning energy but a direct translation is closer to breath or hot air. When you actually practice both eastern a western martial arts the chi based power you are gaining is exactly the same as being told to exhale on a punch in boxing or breating correctly when you're lifting weights.
I love this! Having different ways to interpret ki is both great for roleplaying and lets us borrow monk themes from many different cultures.
I'd definitely like the monk to lose its eastern flavour. Rename ki pool to spiritual reserve and you can have a ki monk, a priestly monk or even a psychic monk.
In Pathfinder 2nd Edition, the ki pool will probably be replaced with spell points. Flavor text might explain that monks use ki, but the mechanic will be the new generic one.
I would agree with changing the class name away from monk, specifically to stop the martial artist class being confused with a religious group and people trying to shove catholic monks in a class that has nothing to do with it. Catholic monks are clerics. You already have a class for you. Go bug the devs for low BAB clerics and stop messing with the wuxia class.
The problem with the name Martial Artist is that it breaks the thing where all classes have a single word name.
For the class name I suggest Youxia, which from Wikipedia appears to be chinese for adventurer or knight-errant. It firmly establishes the conection to wuxia and supernatural martial arts.
Then the work would fall on archetypes to broaden the theme to more western martial arts.
|
I do agree that Monk shouldn't just be "Asian" the class, there should be monks who aren't Asian-styled and there should be nothing preventing characters from lands reminiscent of Asia from other class concepts.
I'd love for a little bit of modularity in the more 'Asian' bits, like the weapon proficiencies, so that I could, without any sort of Archetype business, create a Persian 'Hashashin' who uses scimitars and jambiya and 'fire tubes,' or 'Ulfen Hexnail' who throws iron nails (spike shuriken instead of star shuriken) at the witches that are their traditional enemies or some sort of Magaambyan Beast-Warrior who trains to make her body into a weapon, with the speed of a cheetah, striking swift as a cobra, by challenging herself against the animals native to her homeland, swimming with crocodiles, climbing with leopards, etc.
Monks exist outside of fantasy Asia (whether it be Kara-Tur or Tian Xa), they shouldn't have specifically Asian bits like proficiency with kama, siangham, nunchaku, etc. baked right into the core class, IMO.
|
Monks exist outside of fantasy Asia (whether it be Kara-Tur or Tian Xa), they shouldn't have specifically Asian bits like proficiency with kama, siangham, nunchaku, etc. baked right into the core class, IMO.
They've already noted that they're changing how weapon proficiencies work slightly to deal with 'this weapon is from another culture' without making such weapons Exotic. This seems fairly likely to clear up this specific problem to a large degree.
I had a similar Idea but it was more on line with keeping monastaries and "monk" as name (after all monks and even battle monks arent an asian phenomenom only)
I would rather see the monastic order sorted in universe in racial and religious orders
Religious would be of course devoted to the gods of the inner sea or whereever they are. A good already existing example is the sisterhood of the golden erinyes another one is the monk enforcer order in nidal i forgot the name of.
Those monks would probably trained in using their deities favorite weapon, a few thematically aligned weapons and learn to channel their ki in ways their gods approve (healing for sarenrae, fire magic for asmodeus, etc.)
The racial orders would be largely for members of that race only (well of course some exceptions here and there because we don't want to limit the players)
They would probably get their racial weapon training and techniqes to combine those with ki-arts
for example elvish monks would probably make a big part of the ki-archers
gnomish and halfling monks know to use their size to their advantage
dwarvish monks would probably be very steadfast
and half-orc monks would be infamous for their savage fighting style
of course many possibilities would be easier with non or at least different (cleric like(?)) alignment restrictions depending on the order
but I am against making the monk to a 'martial artist' -> that is what the brawler was for and while I really hope that we get him again at some point I think those classes should stay seperated
(that does not mean that I would mind an archetype or two to make the monk more martial artist like...)
It's important for "unarmed, unarmored" to be a playstyle that anyone can build into because Clerics and Paladins of Irori exist. Outside of the specific Paladin archetype (which even still needed to multiclass with Monk to even approach being workable) in the PF1 paradigm it was largely impossible to make this concept in a way that satisfied the theme.
Not just Clerics and Paladins. I just realized that a dedicated Wizard with an "unarmed, unarmored" build would be perfect for representing Negi Springfield. Not to mention how Negima demonstrates just why there would still be a dedicated Monk class in a world where every class could have some way to add a Monk-esque feel to it (for example, I think Evangeline MacDowell would be an "unarmed, unarmored" Sorceress).
To be 100% honest, my favorite thing about monks was that I could use them to make unarmored samurai, ala Samurai Champloo and whatnot. Also Ty Lee and Yang Xiao Long.