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One of the biggest problems that Pathfinder has is branding. Everyone knows what Dungeons and Dragons is, nobody knows what Pathfinder is (well, we do, but not the average person).
So when a beginner tries an RPG, they reach for D&D.
Pathfinder needs to make it's way into things like the Amazon lists. Pathfinder can't even be found in the Amazon "Role Playing and Fantasy" list, instead we have old games from 2000 in that list like Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, and Mage. Surely Pathfinder deserves to be in that list more than any of the games I've mentioned, they aren't even current!
Anyway, Pathfinder needs to find it's way into lists like these if you want to bring awareness to the brand (and get more sales).
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For me, one way to help in this is by carving a niche for yourself, and given that Pathfinder shares a lot with D&D it should strive to make itself as different as possible from 5e. What would that imply? Well, for me, more crunchiness, more available customization options, gonzo style + Golarion (seriously those APs are the best), and a higher power level overall.
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Ah... I thought this was a thread involving body modification and heated metal... :(
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When I search Amazon for "best selling role playing" book Pathfinder CRB is literally the first result.
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One of the biggest problems that Pathfinder has is branding. Everyone knows what Dungeons and Dragons is, nobody knows what Pathfinder is (well, we do, but not the average person).
So when a beginner tries an RPG, they reach for D&D.
Pathfinder needs to make it's way into things like the Amazon lists. Pathfinder can't even be found in the Amazon "Role Playing and Fantasy" list, instead we have old games from 2000 in that list like Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, and Mage. Surely Pathfinder deserves to be in that list more than any of the games I've mentioned, they aren't even current!
Anyway, Pathfinder needs to find it's way into lists like these if you want to bring awareness to the brand (and get more sales).
Since the list literally says "Best Sellers", Pathfinder won't get there until it sells well enough. So the only way it can go up this list is ... by selling more. No, Amazon does not put your book higher on the list if you pay them or ask nicely.
PF1 is in decline of sales, so that's likely that. Unlike WotC (which sells everywhere and doesn't have its own storefront), Paizo is doing what they can to make sure you buy from their own store, for obvious reasons. All this contributes to PF not being quite up there where 5e is.
Pathfinder will likely never have the level of branding D&D has, because D&D is a household name. It's Kleenex, Maggi, Velcro, Band-Aid level of recognition, where people are aware of D&D but aren't aware of there being any RPGs other than D&D. Of course, we're talking general population here ... but it's the general population that shops Amazon.
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What they need to do is put together a Pathfinder computer game. Kind of like Baldur's Gate.
What they need to do is put together a Pathfinder computer game. Kind of like Baldur's Gate.
I take it you're not aware of Pathfinder: Kingmaker being developed by Owlcat Studios?
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Starfinder CRB is on the first page of that list. This makes sense, because Starfinder is new enough that people are buying the core book, which isn't the case with PF1. At one point Pathfinder was outselling D&D. Now, people just don't need to buy core rulebooks they already own. That's part of why PF2 needs to exist at all.
I've no doubt that PF2 will be on that list when it comes out; the question is, for how long and how much of an impact it will make? 10 of the top 20 items are D&D 5e. That's going to be hard to beat.
The general public will never know the difference between them. If I have to tell a norm what I'm doing, I tell them I'm playing Dungeons & Dragons, even if what I'm actually playing is Pathfinder, Starfinder, Mouseguard, Maid or even Munchkin.
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I leave it to the people who get paid to worry about Paizo's business to worry about Paizo's business. I'm not being paid enough for that. Instead I worry about whether or not Paizo is putting out product to entice me to buy it.
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What they need to do is put together a Pathfinder computer game. Kind of like Baldur's Gate.I take it you're not aware of Pathfinder: Kingmaker being developed by Owlcat Studios?
I am indeed aware. It's going to be awesome!
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Starfinder CRB is on the first page of that list. This makes sense, because Starfinder is new enough that people are buying the core book, which isn't the case with PF1. At one point Pathfinder was outselling D&D. Now, people just don't need to buy core rulebooks they already own. That's part of why PF2 needs to exist at all.
I've no doubt that PF2 will be on that list when it comes out; the question is, for how long and how much of an impact it will make? 10 of the top 20 items are D&D 5e. That's going to be hard to beat.
The general public will never know the difference between them. If I have to tell a norm what I'm doing, I tell them I'm playing Dungeons & Dragons, even if what I'm actually playing is Pathfinder, Starfinder, Mouseguard, Maid or even Munchkin.
Strangely among the people I play with they freely use the terms D&D and Pathfinder interchangeably. For example if we have a game session of Pathfinder planned, they may say something like "See you at the D&D game tonight." I used to try to correct them in a way pointing out the game was going to be Pathfinder, but generally their response was along the lines of "Pathfinder is D&D". I don't think they are or where trying to be dismissive, they just didn't see the need to make the distiction.
It's like when I'm at a fast food drive thru and ask what I'd like to drink, and I ask for a Coke. If they serve Pepsi products, they'll inform me of that. I don't have a strong cola preferrence, so I'll just go with it. Some people strongly perfer one cola over another, I see RPGs similarly. Many people see table top role playing games as D&D and don't have a strong perfference when it comes to playing games, others do have a strong prefference.
When I search Amazon for "best selling role playing" book Pathfinder CRB is literally the first result.
Mostly, I was referring to the list that Amazon compiled. In that list, Starfinder is #27 and the core rulebook is #56. If I was a casual, I would assume D&D is the best RPG out there.
I was especially interested in the categories in that list, which were outdated. Even if Pathfinder isn't selling as well on Amazon, it deserves to be a category more than a game made in 2000.
I searched using your keywords on amazon.com and amazon.ca and I got very different results. Core rulebook was not #1 like you said. Pathfinder Ultimate Magic and other Pathfinder books did come up in result #4 and beyond. When you do searches like this, sometimes Pathfinder comes up, sometimes D&D, sometimes something completely different. "best selling roleplaying game" Starfinder comes up #3. I'm not sure many people buy like this, otherwise Starfinder wouldn't be #27 in the best sellers list.
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When you google Pathfinder pictures of hideous SUVs show up. That can't be good for marketing (I know it's too late to do anything about that issue).
What doesn't help either is Paizo's push for minis. While good for established geeks, it can scare of a lot of newcomers, in my experience, as they have no idea where to begin. Paizo should create a "Mines of Phandelver" noobie kit and go easy on the minis (unpopular opinion around here, I know, then again, read the beginning of this paragraph).
Alternatively, innovate by offering 3D printable models of the monsters. Not everybody may have a 3D printer, but everyone can visit a library or a school to have them printed easily.
Ah... I thought this was a thread involving body modification and heated metal... :(
You and me both :D
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Alternatively, innovate by offering 3D printable models of the monsters. Not everybody may have a 3D printer, but everyone can visit a library or a school to have them printed easily.
Off topic but man where do you live that libraries and schools have 3D printers? There's at least 4 public libraries within 30 minutes of me and none of them have one.
Cardboard Bestiary boxes are much more affordable than plastic minis, and even the boxes from PF1 should work with PF2, although some of the monster artwork may change between editions.
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Man, I love those bestiary boxes so much! I don't have much storage space to spare, but those fit on my gaming shelf. I've pretty much always got a pawn for whatever the players are facing (the adventure paths pawns are great for this too), plus the NPC codex box which people can rummage around for character pawns if they don't have one of their own. And the best part about it all is that they're not in any way edition dependent. Love the pawns!
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* Adventure Paths
* Gaming Podcasts
* Twitch
...etc. The world is changing. Get some Millennials on this. ;)
I have a project that might help, but it's slow going as we're all volunteers. We're not quite sure which way we're leaping yet, either.
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Man, I love those bestiary boxes so much! I don't have much storage space to spare, but those fit on my gaming shelf. I've pretty much always got a pawn for whatever the players are facing (the adventure paths pawns are great for this too), plus the NPC codex box which people can rummage around for character pawns if they don't have one of their own. And the best part about it all is that they're not in any way edition dependent. Love the pawns!
NPC Codex box makes me drool...
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Alternatively, innovate by offering 3D printable models of the monsters. Not everybody may have a 3D printer, but everyone can visit a library or a school to have them printed easily.Off topic but man where do you live that libraries and schools have 3D printers? There's at least 4 public libraries within 30 minutes of me and none of them have one.
Czech republic. Getting things shipped here from USA is a major pain in the butt. If Paizo sold 3D models I am sure it would be far more popular here. (Prusa 3D printers are made here, go figure...)
Czech republic. Getting things shipped here from USA is a major pain in the butt. If Paizo sold 3D models I am sure it would be far more popular here. (Prusa 3D printers are made here, go figure...)Alternatively, innovate by offering 3D printable models of the monsters. Not everybody may have a 3D printer, but everyone can visit a library or a school to have them printed easily.Off topic but man where do you live that libraries and schools have 3D printers? There's at least 4 public libraries within 30 minutes of me and none of them have one.
3D models to print!!! Can't believe why this is not a thing?
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The Beginners Box has everything needed for new players, it has lots of minis, dice, some maps, everything someone new to the game needs to play. I feel it's underutilized.
In any case, this message wasn't really for players who could care less about how Pathfinder sells or is marketed, I just wanted to bring it to Paizo's attention.
Which leads me to think that Paizo should have a new Beginner's Box sooner than later. It was perfect for my brother and his family to get started, especially since they lacked minis and maps. Just a thought.
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Thats a good point. Paizo should be rocking a beginners box 2.0 at launch.
The Beginner's Box was more than a collection of things, it had a streamlined if you will set of rules that I guess where intended to help new players learn some basics before experiencing the full set of rules for Pathfinder. Hopefully with Pathfinder second edition the rules will be intuitive enough not to need a simplified starting ruleset. A box with a set of things like dice, a few cardboard minis, play mat with 1" grid, dice, starting books would be nice especially if it could be affordable.
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Thats a good point I know WOTC popped out a real cheap no thrills no frills starter pack. Folks liked that it was cheap and accessible. However, the Paizo BB consistently gets better reviews as a product even at a higher price point. The extra gear and quality make it a much more exciting and memorable item to have. Id expect no less from Paizo for a 2.0.
I know that making the game more newb friendly is a design goal, but I wouldnt hold my breath for there to be no need of an intro product like the BB1 for PF2.
I'll agree with the person who said that the Pathfinder name is.... kinda terrible in terms of search-ability and identification. Paizo could really have named it anything back in the day but chose to use a really generic term that is used for hundreds of other things.
I hope they market the next version as P2E or 'Pathsecond' or something as that at least is unique.
I also agree that both P2E and Starfinder would be well served by a not too expensive starter kit of some sort. (Not with simplified rules though. The Beginner Box shows that a simplified version will become an alternate ruleset that won't be supported).
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I agree that with the design direction of PF2 the lesser rules aspect of the PF 1 beginner's box would be self-defeating. But I think they would go a long way with making a second edition beginner's box that was a bundle of the CRB and a bunch of common accessories that new TTRPG players might not have. Things like:
- set of laminated character sheets
- 2-sided, dry-erase gridded mat
- dry erase markers
- short 1st-level adventure
- 1-2 complete sets of dice
- diverse character and common monster pawns
- condition cards
- quick-start guide pamphlet
Heck, even with the gaming equipment I've picked up over the years I'd probably still get that for the laminated character sheets and extra gridded mat.
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No matter how clearly written, 400+ pages of rules will be a big hurdle for someone just starting to play Pathfinder.
One of the best things about the Beginner Box was the approachable amount of information it offered to get you started as a GM or a player.
I think a lot of the same simplicity can be achieved within the full ruleset by providing prebuilt characters and crafting an adventure where different kinds of actions are introduced gradually. Paizo can probably write one of those in their sleep by now.
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For me, one way to help in this is by carving a niche for yourself, and given that Pathfinder shares a lot with D&D it should strive to make itself as different as possible from 5e. What would that imply? Well, for me, more crunchiness, more available customization options, gonzo style + Golarion (seriously those APs are the best), and a higher power level overall.It doesn't help that when someone new to Pathfinder opens the 2E Corebook they will see the pretty much the same races that are in the Player's Guide and nearly identical classes.
The crunchiness and options aren't going to matter if the first impression of Pathfinder is that it is Hydrox to D&D's Oreos.
You are not wrong, I think that is why that gonzo feel that Pathfinder has is very important for first impression and to keep things fresh long term, I think is also one of the reason why Goblins and Alchemist are been made core.
For me, one way to help in this is by carving a niche for yourself, and given that Pathfinder shares a lot with D&D it should strive to make itself as different as possible from 5e. What would that imply? Well, for me, more crunchiness, more available customization options, gonzo style + Golarion (seriously those APs are the best), and a higher power level overall.It doesn't help that when someone new to Pathfinder opens the 2E Corebook they will see the pretty much the same races that are in the Player's Guide and nearly identical classes.
The crunchiness and options aren't going to matter if the first impression of Pathfinder is that it is Hydrox to D&D's Oreos.
I prefer Post raisin brand over Kellogs. I couldn't knock Kellog's until I rocked Post's.
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They'll pump out video commercials in addition to all of their print ads.
Well, we're not in the 90s any more, print ads are dead, video commercials are dying. Mobile ads and gaming streams is how you advertise in THE CYBERPUNK FUTURE OF THE YEAR 2028.
And I'm afraid that the number of people who ditch Pathfinder's clunky and overwrought (with drought for nought! ) mechanics for the sleeker, more approachable D&D outweighs the number of people who do the opposite by the large margin.
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Thats the differentiation Paizo needs to highlight. PF isnt a game you can play on your phone. Its the alternative to D&D.
And the problem is that the evolution has been going more and more towards phone-based and tablet applications.
EDIT: The problem with podcasts and play-throughs is that it ruins the story if you want to experience it 'fresh'.
So if someone wants to see the gaming environment, but doesn't want to destroy that feeling for Pathfinder product... they have to look at other broadcasted games... which then in turn promotes other said games.
And the problem is that the evolution has been going more and more towards phone-based and tablet applications.
EDIT: The problem with podcasts and play-throughs is that it ruins the story if you want to experience it 'fresh'.
So if someone wants to see the gaming environment, but doesn't want to destroy that feeling for Pathfinder product... they have to look at other broadcasted games... which then in turn promotes other said games.
Eh. This isn't really true. You can absolutely run a homebrew game for a podcast. The two most successful 5e actual plays do this and there's no reason pathfinder would be any different. The Glass Canon also has so much original content worked in based on the PCs that I honestly don't know where the AP begins and the original content ends, which can keep a player guessing. Giantslayer's story also isn't bad, but since book 1 ended I haven't seen many big reveals that would suck to have as a spoiler.
Also also, I think if you are enthusiastic enough about table top gaming to listen to lots of actual plays, there's a pretty good chance you are gonna DM eventually. At which point the podcast becomes useful data to factor into your own game.
Also also also, PF1 has sooooooooo many adventures that you won't be lacking in other games to run. And as the Glass Canon podcast demonstrated, you can port those PF1 adventures over to PF2 easily enough. Which is true both for players and Podcasters. I think Jason ran the GCP Boyz through Crypt of the Everflame instead of Doomsday Dawn to avoid spoilers as well as demonstrate ease of conversion.