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I don't like pig-orcs with the /very/ specific exception of the Legend of Zelda series with Ganon and his moblins. But man, they definitely need to keep the tusks. It's one of the only things that distinguishes an "orc" from "generic cursed ugly humanoid."
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i like the design of the hobgoblins; keeping the goblinoid look consistent helps hone in the fact that goblins are closely related to hobgoblins, if not the halfling equivalent to hobgoblins
I think there is a lot of expectation and baggage with representation and illustration of goblins and goblinoids - Tolkien's Hobbit Great Goblin/goblins, the goblins of Moria, Mordor Orcs and Uruk Hai of Saruman, with some confusion in my mind where one ends and the other begins. Then add the Peter Jackson movies and throw in a blender. Or any of the various Tolkien calendars from the 80's onwards, some with awesome phsiological breakdowns of the types.
For PF2, I'm also keen to see orcs and bugbears continue the trajectory we've seen from goblin---->hobgoblin. A super-feral wild bugbear would be awesome. Shying away from pignose and tusk orcs would be radical and appreciated, but I can see removing the tusks as a bridge too far.
I always found PF trolls weird looking, but then examined my own fondness for AdnD1e trolls and realised they were really really weird looking, and at least PF trolls were more bestial, if boar-head-like.
Orcs have just been all over the map for portrayals, it'll be nice to have a consistent baseline. That goes for all monsters really (and PC races etc), but orcs have been particularly problematic. I remember AD&D where every artist had a completely different look for them. I mean there are these weird looking orcs and the pig-faced ones and all sorts of others. And distinguishing them form goblinoids could be difficult (also, am I remembering wrong, or were orcs considered goblinoids in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D?)
And I much prefer the PF trolls. Those lanky triangle faced AD&D ones always seemed weird to me. I think trolls should have more bulk. And fewer triangles.
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I think there is a lot of expectation and baggage with representation and illustration of goblins and goblinoids - Tolkien's Hobbit Great Goblin/goblins, the goblins of Moria, Mordor Orcs and Uruk Hai of Saruman, with some confusion in my mind where one ends and the other begins. Then add the Peter Jackson movies and throw in a blender. Or any of the various Tolkien calendars from the 80's onwards, some with awesome phsiological breakdowns of the types.
For PF2, I'm also keen to see orcs and bugbears continue the trajectory we've seen from goblin---->hobgoblin. A super-feral wild bugbear would be awesome. Shying away from pignose and tusk orcs would be radical and appreciated, but I can see removing the tusks as a bridge too far.
I always found PF trolls weird looking, but then examined my own fondness for AdnD1e trolls and realised they were really really weird looking, and at least PF trolls were more bestial, if boar-head-like.
Orcs have just been all over the map for portrayals, it'll be nice to have a consistent baseline. That goes for all monsters really (and PC races etc), but orcs have been particularly problematic. I remember AD&D where every artist had a completely different look for them. I mean there are these weird looking orcs and the pig-faced ones and all sorts of others. And distinguishing them form goblinoids could be difficult (also, am I remembering wrong, or were orcs considered goblinoids in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D?)
And I much prefer the PF trolls. Those lanky triangle faced AD&D ones always seemed weird to me. I think trolls should have more bulk. And fewer triangles.
I think de trolls should have overly large arms mohawks and tusks. Also they need to be very down with de mojo.
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"How ya be doin'?"
This is what I think of in terms of orcs.
Wayne's hobgoblin as presented in the article is a great starting point for distinguishing from that, and building type identity. Just, as before, it needs to not be an emaciated anorexic corpse. It may be female, but as an archer it should have the basic body structure of a female sports player.
Also agreed with Weather in that I actually did dig the quasi-Asian vibe hobs used to have going on. Helps distinguish them from the quasi-Celt/Hun thing of the orcs.
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And those Earth analogs pretty much reflect the distinct geographic locations each race is concentrated in Golarion. If goal is making Pathfinder more about Golarion, that seems like an automatic to me.
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Honestly making the goblinoids look related to each other is a fantastic move. I’m downright horrified by what bugbears will look like if they get some more goblification.In my homebrew I have them looking like the Wendigos from Until Dawn, so I’m super excited to see what Wayne comes up with :3
AW CRAP!
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AW CRAP!Honestly making the goblinoids look related to each other is a fantastic move. I’m downright horrified by what bugbears will look like if they get some more goblification.In my homebrew I have them looking like the Wendigos from Until Dawn, so I’m super excited to see what Wayne comes up with :3
*cackles*
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I definitely fall into the camp of not so impressed by ancestry feats so far. With how few you will get, they need to have stronger effects than what we have seen, making the gap between them worth the wait. As is, I feel like most players would forget about even getting an ancestry feat at level-up, and when reminded just roll their eyes and pick something.
We need feats that make the racial choices worth it, like Elves getting bonus damage dice to bows or adding bonuses to the negative effects of creatures who fail their saves against their spells. Dwarves getting their blacksmith proficiency bonus to sundering attempts. Halflings getting a feat chain that allows them to siphon luck from their enemies. Gnomes being able to shapeshift into rocks or greenery. Give us things to look forward to and really reward the choice of race on character concepts.
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Yeah, I want there to be Ancestry Feats that unlock at higher levels that are actually exciting. I don't mind terribly much having a constrained set of abilities at lower level (it actually makes it easier to balance the various ancestries, which I think is a good thing), I just don't want the one I pick up at 5th level to just be "the second best of the options I had at 1st level".
Just so long as whatever the final decisions are, orcs are absolutely distinct from the goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear family, to reflect their distinct origins in Golarion lore, I can work with it.
For PF2, I'm also keen to see orcs and bugbears continue the trajectory we've seen from goblin---->hobgoblin. A super-feral wild bugbear would be awesome.
Given that there is to be a dusting of Golarion lore embedded in PF2, that really would make sense.
What is their origin in Golarion? - I am wholly unfamiliar with it| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I thought it was really annoying how the answers didn't really relate to the questions at all. I don't know if that's because of editing or what (I think it was just him giving his standard spiel) but I thought the questions were really good, and I wish we would have gotten actual answers to them.
Personally I thought it was really annoying how the answers didn't really relate to the questions at all. I don't know if that's because of editing or what (I think it was just him giving his standard spiel) but I thought the questions were really good, and I wish we would have gotten actual answers to them.
I wasn't all that impressed either. I learned that ...
old RPG systems are bad
PF2e involves a lot of "math"
goblins are all about "fun and mayhem"
"stories" are good
For PF2, I'm also keen to see orcs and bugbears continue the trajectory we've seen from goblin---->hobgoblin. A super-feral wild bugbear would be awesome.Just so long as whatever the final decisions are, orcs are absolutely distinct from the goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear family, to reflect their distinct origins in Golarion lore, I can work with it.Given that there is to be a dusting of Golarion lore embedded in PF2, that really would make sense.
What is their origin in Golarion? - I am wholly unfamiliar with itOrcs came out of the Darklands along with dwarves after Earthfall, not sure it's been clarified where they originated before that.
Goblins arose from the spilled blood of one of the barghest gods, and hobgoblins were made from goblins with a powerful artifact in the Age of Legends; iirc bugbears are goblins crossbred with some kind of nasty faerie (I want to say bogeymen but I am not sure on this one.)
Orc origins havent been clarified. They claim they were created by Rovagug, but that's not confirmed. Earliest known origins of these claims is the Age of Darkness. They were primitive darkland tribes that basically learned everything fighting Dwarves. But aside from that...nothing confirmed.
Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
Might be that particular tax being paid is close to a given for "pure" or "primary" casters but not so for other casters. Clerics, Druids and Wizards might have effectively automatic access but Bards, Magi, Paladins and Rangers do not. These classes may never access 10th level spells but have access to the rest of their tradition's' spell lists.
It is possible that a Ranger gains the equivalent of half spells/day of whatever Druidic tradition(s) they follow for orisons and 1st-9th level spells but cannot ever access 10th level druid spells, for example.
Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
I think the purpose was balance more than it was following a progression through to its conclusion. Wish and Miracle always stuck out from the other ninth-level spells. They’re dropping the material costs, though, so it seems like a good deal to me.
I think the purpose was balance more than it was following a progression through to its conclusion. Wish and Miracle always stuck out from the other ninth-level spells. They’re dropping the material costs, though, so it seems like a good deal to me.Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
I higher level spell slot seems enough balance to me, a feat tax is just bad design, I mean, can you imagine a spellcaster who doesn't want 10th level spells?
It is possible that a Ranger gains the equivalent of half spells/day of whatever Druidic tradition(s) they follow for orisons and 1st-9th level spells but cannot ever access 10th level druid spells, for example.
That seems dubious to me. If anyone gets a "lesser" form of spellcasting, I would think that the cutoff point would be considerably lower than between 9th and 10th levels -- especially since the DCs for saving throws presumably no longer depend on spell level.
I higher level spell slot seems enough balance to me, a feat tax is just bad design, I mean, can you imagine a spellcaster who doesn't want 10th level spells?I think the purpose was balance more than it was following a progression through to its conclusion. Wish and Miracle always stuck out from the other ninth-level spells. They’re dropping the material costs, though, so it seems like a good deal to me.Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
That would mean casters would be getting three capstones: 18th level pseudo-capstone, free Wish, and the 20th level capstone. By combining it with the 18th level pseudo-capstone, it keeps them more in line with other classes. I presume you can grab one other pseudo-capstones instead. We’ll see, though.
It is possible that a Ranger gains the equivalent of half spells/day of whatever Druidic tradition(s) they follow for orisons and 1st-9th level spells but cannot ever access 10th level druid spells, for example.That seems dubious to me. If anyone gets a "lesser" form of spellcasting, I would think that the cutoff point would be considerably lower than between 9th and 10th levels -- especially since the DCs for saving throws presumably no longer depend on spell level.
Depends. Since it *seems* that characters can pick from an assortment of feat(ure)s as they progress, spell-casting Rangers - to continue the above example - may well emphasize magical prowess over, say, favored terrain, tracking and a pet attack bear. More versatile Rangers may opt to pick up middling casting prowess, a pet bear and one really awesome favored terrain.
Caster Level does not equate to spell level access. Scaling magical saving throw DCs in a uniform fashion (10 +1/2 CL +# ability modifier) is much easier to remember.
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We haven't seen much of anything about backgrounds yet. As I understand them, they represent the strongest influence of your upbringing. I think that being adopted would have a stronger influence than whether your dwarf parents taught you blacksmithing or brewing.For most adopted people I know, it was basically irrelevant to their life. Everything else mattered more. Only Hollywood makes adoption into this huge crazy deal.
Yeah, my little sister is adopted and it's not like how people expect. She's from Guatamala (we live in USA) and people always get confused when we say we're siblings. Then we'll be like, "she's adopted," and adults will always get this look they think is understanding and kids will always say, "that's weird," or "whoah." The thing is it is just normal to us. At home it never comes up, ever. None of us care, like at all. I also don't understand how 'youre adopted' is an insult.
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That would mean casters would be getting three capstones: 18th level pseudo-capstone, free Wish, and the 20th level capstone. By combining it with the 18th level pseudo-capstone, it keeps them more in line with other classes. I presume you can grab one other pseudo-capstones instead. We’ll see, though.I higher level spell slot seems enough balance to me, a feat tax is just bad design, I mean, can you imagine a spellcaster who doesn't want 10th level spells?I think the purpose was balance more than it was following a progression through to its conclusion. Wish and Miracle always stuck out from the other ninth-level spells. They’re dropping the material costs, though, so it seems like a good deal to me.Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread
Why 10th level spells has a feat tax? I was imagining that the purpose was completing the natural progression of spellcasters getting access to a new spell level every two levels. I'm very disappointed to see such a feat tax, and I'm really hoping it gets corrected in the final product.
What 18 or 20 level capstone? The Druid is the only spellcaster in core that gets a proper capstone, I'm not sure if an extra feat or bloodline power counts for much. And given the new modular approach shown I'm not sure if capstones are still going to be thing in PF2
Also, where did you get this free Wish idea? Do you really think is going to be free just because they get reap of the material component? And in the very unlikely case that it was true that is free, most probably Wish is going to be nerfed, no more ability increases or permanent items.
Yeah, my little sister is adopted and it's not like how people expect. She's from Guatamala (we live in USA) and people always get confused when we say we're siblings. Then we'll be like, "she's adopted," and adults will always get this look they think is understanding and kids will always say, "that's weird," or "whoah." The thing is it is just normal to us. At home it never comes up, ever. None of us care, like at all. I also don't understand how 'youre adopted' is an insult.We haven't seen much of anything about backgrounds yet. As I understand them, they represent the strongest influence of your upbringing. I think that being adopted would have a stronger influence than whether your dwarf parents taught you blacksmithing or brewing.For most adopted people I know, it was basically irrelevant to their life. Everything else mattered more. Only Hollywood makes adoption into this huge crazy deal.
Sadly " 'you're adopted' being considered an insult " derives from an unpleasant insinuation that I shall not elaborate upon here.
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What 18 or 20 level capstone? The Druid is the only spellcaster in core that gets a proper capstone, I'm not sure if an extra feat or bloodline power counts for much. And given the new modular approach shown I'm not sure if capstones are still going to be thing in PF2
Also, where did you get this free Wish idea? Do you really think is going to be free just because they get reap of the material component? And in the very unlikely case that it was true that is free, most probably Wish is going to be nerfed, no more ability increases or permanent items.
Sorcerer and Wizard both got capstones. But we’ve been told that classes get to pick from several capstone options. We know there are class feats that require 18th level, too. That’s what I’m taking as a pseudo-capstone.
Well, they’re at least getting rid of the 25k cost, and I doubt it’ll have an XP cost again. Sundry ability score boosts are getting removed anyway. Hmm... temporary magic items would be a cool Wish use, though.
Wizard's 20th level Arcane Discovery of Immortality is ... lackluster, putting it mildly.
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Yeah, my little sister is adopted and it's not like how people expect. She's from Guatamala (we live in USA) and people always get confused when we say we're siblings. Then we'll be like, "she's adopted," and adults will always get this look they think is understanding and kids will always say, "that's weird," or "whoah." The thing is it is just normal to us. At home it never comes up, ever. None of us care, like at all. I also don't understand how 'youre adopted' is an insult.We haven't seen much of anything about backgrounds yet. As I understand them, they represent the strongest influence of your upbringing. I think that being adopted would have a stronger influence than whether your dwarf parents taught you blacksmithing or brewing.For most adopted people I know, it was basically irrelevant to their life. Everything else mattered more. Only Hollywood makes adoption into this huge crazy deal.
My sister was adopted from Russia. She looks so much like my father, you wouldn't know she was adopted unless you were told. That doesn't lessen the influence the adoption process has had on her life. Had she been raised in a Russian cultural context, she would be a very different person today.
In the same way, two humans learning to blacksmith or to brew from elves are going to look a lot more similar to each other than to two humans learning the same trades from the dwarves. The cultural context has a much stronger influence than other background details.
Wizard's 20th level Arcane Discovery of Immortality is ... lackluster, putting it mildly.
That was a later addition anyway. The schools came with capstones, though, like permanent summons.
Wizard's 20th level Arcane Discovery of Immortality is ... lackluster, putting it mildly.That was a later addition anyway. The schools came with capstones, though, like permanent summons.
Permanent summons? Where is that from?
Permanent summons? Where is that from?Wizard's 20th level Arcane Discovery of Immortality is ... lackluster, putting it mildly.That was a later addition anyway. The schools came with capstones, though, like permanent summons.
All of the specialist schools had them. For instance, Conjuration:
Summoner's Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This increase is not doubled by Extend Spell. At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
Permanent summons? Where is that from?Wizard's 20th level Arcane Discovery of Immortality is ... lackluster, putting it mildly.That was a later addition anyway. The schools came with capstones, though, like permanent summons.All of the specialist schools had them. For instance, Conjuration:
Summoner's Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This increase is not doubled by Extend Spell. At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
Oh thanks, I didn't remember that part