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This should be brought up in all half-orc threads.
or maybe just add full orc, and allow tables where people are disturbed by half-orcs to ban them
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or maybe just add full orc, and allow tables where people are disturbed by half-orcs to ban them
Lo and Behold! Your wish is granted oh pious supplicant! By invoking RULE ZERO a GM will now be able to disallow half orcs and add full grown orcs to their home games! Rejoice in Asmodeus' generosity brother!
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I'd be cool with that. My players usually like full orcs better anyways.
Weirdly, they prefer their elves at 50%.
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I would be down for an exploration of what Orc culture is like beyond the obvious brutality and violence, presuming there is actually something there.
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It's probably more structured than Goblin society at least.
it'd be hard to agree with this more...
I would be down for an exploration of what Orc culture is like beyond the obvious brutality and violence, presuming there is actually something there.
There are few races I'd object to getting a write up for. I mean tengu and ratfolk never did anything for me either, but I wouldn't mind a write up for them.
Can we finally go away from the Half-Orc as a race please. They imply sexual assault and really no longer fit into the modern inclusive approach to gaming that hasn't always been there. I would be happy if they were playable full orcs, but half-orcs are just disturbing.
The only problem there is if you make orcs a full race, you'll eventually get orcs and humans that love each other and make 1/2 orcs... So it's not really a winning strategy for getting rid of 1/2 orcs. ;)
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Can we finally go away from the Half-Orc as a race please. They imply sexual assault and really no longer fit into the modern inclusive approach to gaming that hasn't always been there. I would be happy if they were playable full orcs, but half-orcs are just disturbing.
So you want to be rid of the result of rape that might not actually be a result of such an act, and... add in the perpetrators instead?
Good trolling.
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I put up a post expressing the same thing before and it got closed. But to chime in again, I also agree that Half-Orcs are a ridiculous measure. It also does imply an aspect of rapeyness that is well out of date. If you look at the write up for the orc:
"Orc tribes are feared and reviled throughout the planes for their depravities and their penchant for destruction and mindless violence. The vast majority of orcs are easy enough to identify by their jutting jaw, yellowed tusks, squinting eyes and hairy, brutally muscular frames. Their skin color tends to run the gamut from blue-black to grey, with putrid slime green being the most common. Many tribes of orcs however have adopted traits unique to their own species through interbreeding with other races, adaptation to climate and terrain, and the intervention of evil magicians or other-planar powers."
we see a stress on depravities as well as a penchant for interbreeding. Sounds like you don't have to read too far between the lines to get the sense that sexual assault far outweighs love matches for the creation of Half-Orcs.
That said, I also like the idea of playable orcs as it might allow for the development of the race beyond what I just quoted from the write up. If you want me to believe that the Golarion orcs are just a bunch of deprived violent xp bags who are capable of being sweet lovey dovey half-man-makers, than show me instead of telling me otherwise.
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I also find the idea of implied sexual assault distasteful in the Half-Orc. In Giantslayer the citizens of Trunau are even given a dagger to kill themseves rather than face capture from orcs which also implies fear of capture being so much worse than what might happen in human conquests. The implication seems to be the fear of rape.
The idea of a full orc is certainly intriguing and better IMO. They have their own realm in Belkzen. Certainly if they have their own distinct place, it should allow for more characters to emerge from there who aren't a product of some form of assault, or that rarity of orc/human love.
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From the Beastiary description of the Orcs:
An adult male orc is roughly 6 feet tall and 210 pounds.
Orcs and humans interbreed frequently, though this is
almost always the result of raids and slave-taking rather
than consensual unions. Many orc tribes purposefully
breed for half-orcs and raise them as their own, as the
smarter progeny make excellent strategists and leaders
for their tribes.
So it seems pretty clear that rapey orcs is built into the Orc sauce.
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I also find the idea of implied sexual assault distasteful in the Half-Orc. In Giantslayer the citizens of Trunau are even given a dagger to kill themseves rather than face capture from orcs which also implies fear of capture being so much worse than what might happen in human conquests.That's really not all that uncommon in real world human history either.
Maybe for real-world people, not so much for Golarion examples.
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From the Beastiary description of the Orcs:
An adult male orc is roughly 6 feet tall and 210 pounds.
Orcs and humans interbreed frequently, though this is
almost always the result of raids and slave-taking rather
than consensual unions. Many orc tribes purposefully
breed for half-orcs and raise them as their own, as the
smarter progeny make excellent strategists and leaders
for their tribes.So it seems pretty clear that rapey orcs is built into the Orc sauce.
yuck
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I took the Hopeknife in Trunau is as much a declaration "We will live free," that is, "better to die free than live a slave," as it is addressing any other fears.
The Hopeknife was meant as a last resort measure in case a villager were sure to be captured by orcs. Slit your throat (or your friend’s if he/she were incapable of escaping without endangering others) before falling into orc’s hands and be tortured. This could very well mean rape as well. Turnau is said to sport a large amount of half orcs because of this, but Paizo toned down the implications in later products.
Well that's why we need houserules...
Yeah Hook Mountain Massacre...
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I figure we need some canonical orc groups that got away from Rovagug's influence, or their murderous leaders, or whatever and are working on forging a positively inclined civilization. Or just any sort of civilization not based on power, fear, and dominance.
IIRC the Pathfinder canon is that Orcs used to be be literally feral, but picked up a bunch of things about weapons and warfare from the Dwarves during their Quest for the Sky. So Orcs are still at a relatively early place in their cultural development.
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I don't really get the request. You are asking Paizo to retcon the setting, so as long as you're asking them to retcon, why not just retcon so that half-orcs are the result of consensual relationships? Why do you need to remove them entirely?
If you want orcs to be nice enough not to do nasty things to people, why would the children of these happy orcs imply assault?
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I don't think its retconning the setting. I see it as expanding upon the setting and moving away from ugly ideas of past editions. Make the orc playable, like the goblin, and have the Half-Orc be a trait or racial feat so its still there as well.
If anything, the happy lovey children of Human-Orc matings are a deviation from the setting as demonstrated by the descriptions of orcs posted from Paizo material shows.
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I don't think its retconning the setting. I see it as expanding upon the setting and moving away from ugly ideas of past editions. Make the orc playable, like the goblin, and have the Half-Orc be a trait or racial feat so its still there as well.
If anything, the happy lovey children of Human-Orc matings are a deviation from the setting as demonstrated by the descriptions of orcs posted from Paizo material shows.
Orcs have been a playable race since 2012.
And if I understand correctly, the original request is to remove half-orcs entirely from the game, which would require retconning dozens of NPCs (and two iconics) to either become full-blooded orcs or humans. It didn't seem like "leave half-orcs in as an option" was part of OP's request.
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If you want orcs to be nice enough not to do nasty things to people, why would the children of these happy orcs imply assault?
I feel like highlighting more Orc tribes/nations/bands/communes/whatever which are not made up of conquest-oriented savages and aren't evil will go a long way here. I don't think there will be any shortage of evil orcs one can kill without conscience if we have reports of orc communities engaging in mutually beneficial trade with their neighbors instead of just raiding them.
Im fine with full blown orcs. I dont want any halfs like dwelfs or dworcs. No dorf plus anything...
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Can we finally go away from the Half-Orc as a race please. They imply sexual assault and really no longer fit into the modern inclusive approach to gaming that hasn't always been there. I would be happy if they were playable full orcs, but half-orcs are just disturbing.
Not sure that I like the sentiment behind that suggestion. Because if you exclude everything from the game that might be disturbing to someone else, you'll end up with a Pathfinder version of a fairytale La-La-Land, and that's not a very interesting place to run games in.
I also don't agree that the existence of Half-orcs do not fit a more inclusive approach to gaming. Being inclusive doesn't mean to ignore the darker aspects of the human condition and unluckily, sexual violence will never be not a part of that condition. In my opinion, RPGs should never be afraid of adressing those topics, because roleplaying games allow to explore them in a safe environment.
Apart from that, I like my orcs pretty much as the pure evil creatures they are (same with Drow), and while I've enjoyed playing Orcs in WoW or Shadowrun, I wouldn't like them suddenly having a similar role in my D&D/PF-style of games
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Our group loves half-breeds far too much. I'm all for Orcs without crippling mental penalties and plot restrictions, but I'd not want to see the half-orc go for them.
Really, I'm confused as to what removing half-orcs would achieve in the grand scale of things.
That kind of unafraid look at dark themes, in a serious, 'these things are not okay' is a core part of the Pathfinder campaign setting. So many of the villains and enemies in Golarion content do unabashedly disturbing and grotesque things. It really motivates me to get in character and give a damn.
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"It also does imply an aspect of rapeyness that is well out of date"
It's not out of date. Orcs are an evil race. Rape is evil. Orcs are fecund and love rape. That's clearly one of many evils that they are all about. There's nothing "out of date" about having an evil race do evil things. Orcs should make you uncomfortable, they are vile.
Well there are a lot of survivors of sexual assault who don't want those memories dredged up while they're trying to just play a game. I understand that. Considering the huge numbers of people have been sexually assaulted, it makes sense to tread lightly on the subject.
I just don't understand how removing half-orcs achieves that. If you're going that route, I'd think you would just want to soften the image of orcs entirely, such that half-orcs no longer have the implication of rape. Even just introducing NPCs who are the produce of consensual orc-human relationships seems better to me from every angle than removing half-orcs completely.
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People can tell stories about all the terrible things they want to. But we're talking about the "canonical setting" and so Paizo's goal will be to set the dominoes up for the stories the most people want to tell while driving away as few people as possible, so avoiding the canonicity of like, a sexual assault-based culture is probably wise.
Plus, I mean, you can tell as many stories about rape, murder, and slavery as you want without invoking any beings that are not human. So what does it add to have a whole species in your game world that is super into those things?
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Orcs are a race of psychopaths and rapists. Why should that be a core race? This isn't Warcraft or Might and Magic, orcs aren't reasonable or honorable, their gods are the most vile things imaginable and they reflect that in every aspect, from being unable to form traumatic memories in order to not develop regret over their actions to having a culture based around abusing those under your "control" (your subordinates, your slaves, your wives, and even your children).
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From the Beastiary description of the Orcs:
An adult male orc is roughly 6 feet tall and 210 pounds.
Orcs and humans interbreed frequently, though this is
almost always the result of raids and slave-taking rather
than consensual unions. Many orc tribes purposefully
breed for half-orcs and raise them as their own, as the
smarter progeny make excellent strategists and leaders
for their tribes.So it seems pretty clear that rapey orcs is built into the Orc sauce.
I always saw that as propaganda by the bigoty humans that want to oppress the orc kind and want to keep human blood "pure."