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I think you are underselling how bad a rep the half-orcs have though. There are places where half-orcs are just seen as "little more than monsters. They often are unable even to get normal work, and are pressed into service in the military or sold into slavery." To me, the only real distinction between enslaving a creature vs killing it on sight is believing it will be more useful. Half-Orc strength is better for labor than Goblin strength.
Orcs are a scarier threat than goblins, and many people don't distinguish between a halfie and a full blood. And if the half-orc was raised by an orc tribe, the distinction becomes pretty meaningless. I reckon prejudice will vary by region, sort of like how it does in real life. The communities ravaged by orcs will care less about goblins than half-orcs, and vice versa. Nirmathas is going to hat Hobgoblins by the time the Ironfang Invasion is over, etc.
Also, 10-12 years is enough time for a goblin generation to reach adulthood... which could include a lot of goblins orphaned by adventurers who got raised by other races.
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How much would it change Goblin society if a Good-aligned goblin were to pass the test of the Starstone? Doesn't have to be anyone famous, since Norgorber sure wasn't famous prior to godhood.
Like that would turn a lot of heads all over, I think.
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There's an alchemist Grand Discovery in one of the player companions that allows you to permanently turn a creature good. If that substance were to somehow get into the water supply somewhere, it could explain how a large number of inherently evil creatures could wind up good aligned. This could even be a very recent development not requiring any retcons.
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3.2% of PCs are gnomes, compared to 1.4% of PCs that are goblins. It won't be that big of a change if goblins become more common.We've had goblin PCs since 2010. Nothing is changing!!The changes that we go from Goblin Adventures existing, to realistically having to Encompass something like 10% of all adventures in order for the picture we're going to see across games to make any sense.
I'm willing to bet that there will be more Goblin PCS amongst registered Pathfinder Society characters then there will be gnomes. That implies that there are now more Goblin Pathfinder agents than there are gnomish ones. You may well say that that's not supposed to be true in universe and that we just happen to be following all of the ones that exist, but that is going to break down, because if every Goblin PC that is introduced is supposed to be in the same Canon, we're going to have to deal with the fact that there are thousands of them, when the realistic number would be well under a dozen.
Isn't that just overall, not in PFS specifically? Given the fact that being a Goblin in PFS was essentially impossible, I'd wager the numbers will completely skyrocket if and when the Goblin becomes a Core race, useable by default.
As for the topic, we'll see with the full playtest writeup, but the blog did seem to imply there was no big change. There's goblin adventurers, who are exceptions, and then the rest of the goblins, still being Evil Goblins.
As PFS characters are only 8.8% of all characters, I doubt it will skyrocket BECAUSE of PFS.
aaand... On topic:
My theory is that in the last AP, there will be one or more tribe of goblins that will realize they are in danger with the rest of the world because of the big bad, and they will ally with the longshanks to help save the world. :3
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Single goblins are easy to justify. Multiple ones harder and it becomes even more difficult to explain them with any regularity as an acceptable generic background person that no one paid attention too. The lone adventurer I can buy: it's the random unknown goblin at the market that everyone is ok with them being there that doesn't make sense to me.True, that, Athaleon! Whether halflings, gnomes or shadier types like ratfolk or now goblins, the small races have always been quirky at best.
The real answer is that goblin characters can be explained away by reasons.
thing is goblins have popped up in adventures as more then adversaries ..including in markets
There's an alchemist Grand Discovery in one of the player companions that allows you to permanently turn a creature good. If that substance were to somehow get into the water supply somewhere, it could explain how a large number of inherently evil creatures could wind up good aligned. This could even be a very recent development not requiring any retcons.
If actions determine alignment and not vice versa, they'd go right back to being evil.
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They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.Yeah, completely different from all of those human thugs they find down there as well.
The number #3 most common reason for a sewer blockages in Absalom is clogs of adventurers. I don't know who keeps flushing them down there; really, there are perfectly good recycling bins located throughout the city. Each is practically the center of a katamari of gear, and all the pokey bits keeps getting caught on everything. Most gobs and kobolds in the plumbers' guild aren't experienced enough to cast bigby's plunging hand. Heck, most adventurers are too disgusting for otyughs to eat.
Thankfully, there's always napalm and dynamite.
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I think you are underselling how bad a rep the half-orcs have though. There are places where half-orcs are just seen as "little more than monsters.
And I think you are overselling it as almost EVERYWHERE goblins are seen as monsters, pests and vermin yet you think it'll all turn around in 10 years?
They often are unable even to get normal work, and are pressed into service in the military or sold into slavery." To me, the only real distinction between enslaving a creature vs killing it on sight is believing it will be more useful. Half-Orc strength is better for labor than Goblin strength.
You aren't saying anything that can't be said for various types of humans...
Orcs are a scarier threat than goblins, and many people don't distinguish between a halfie and a full blood.
Are they though? When you see one you often have dozens of goblins and goblins are insane... An orc JUST want to attack you while a goblin wants your entire town to burn... Secondly, it actually isn't hard to tell race in game. It REQUIRES a disguise check to seem like another race, rangers never seem to have an issue telling they are part human and having "much stronger orc blood than human blood" in no way impacts identifying them as a race.
Also, 10-12 years is enough time for a goblin generation to reach adulthood... which could include a lot of goblins orphaned by adventurers who got raised by other races.
The lifespan of the goblins is truly meaningless. It's the lifespan of people that recall everything bad the old goblins did. Does the guy who lost all his chickens to those darn goblins CARE if that goblin isn't the exact same one that did that before? Nope. If you assume people can't even tell 1/2 orcs from orcs, how do they tell good goblins from the endless supply of bad ones?
thing is goblins have popped up in adventures as more then adversaries ..including in marketsSingle goblins are easy to justify. Multiple ones harder and it becomes even more difficult to explain them with any regularity as an acceptable generic background person that no one paid attention too. The lone adventurer I can buy: it's the random unknown goblin at the market that everyone is ok with them being there that doesn't make sense to me.True, that, Athaleon! Whether halflings, gnomes or shadier types like ratfolk or now goblins, the small races have always been quirky at best.
The real answer is that goblin characters can be explained away by reasons.
It's NOT that rare exceptions can happen: it's when it's not one market but EVERY market is unfazed by a random goblin walking around...
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They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.Yeah, completely different from all of those human thugs they find down there as well.The number #3 most common reason for a sewer blockages in Absalom is clogs of adventurers. I don't know who keeps flushing them down there; really, there are perfectly good recycling bins located throughout the city. Each is practically the center of a katamari of gear, and all the pokey bits keeps getting caught on everything. Most gobs and kobolds in the plumbers' guild aren't experienced enough to cast bigby's plunging hand. Heck, most adventurers are too disgusting for otyughs to eat.
Thankfully, there's always napalm and dynamite.
This reminds me of a write-up some years ago for a sewer-delving game. With the players all working for the department of sanitation. There's a lot of potential there. Ah, here it is.
And Otyughs kind of get a bad rep. They're intelligent creatures that tend towards neutral and provide a useful service in waste disposal. I was happy and amused to see an otyugh merchant in one recent AP. In our game we helped her back to a town one of our previous parties established that has all sorts of weirdos. She's now a shop-keeper. Also keeps a Bag of Everlasting Dung from the Legacy of Fire player's guide as a bag of snacks.
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How much would it change Goblin society if a Good-aligned goblin were to pass the test of the Starstone?
Not for me at least. It proves a statistical anomaly, that's all. IMO it has no bearing on the rest of the race. If a good Aboleth passed the test of the Starstone I'm not going to invite every Aboleth to town because that somehow changed the entire race.
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There are many unexplored places in Glorian (and, probably, any homebrew adventure worlds). In one of these unexplored places perhaps a tribe of goblins received divine intervention.
Goblins dislike words but have no loathing for pictures; so, they would have no problem with hieroglyphs. Who else likes hieroglyphs? The gods of the Pharaohs.
My favorite is Bes - the ugly, short god - for the deity who took this tribe under his tutelage. Why he did do this? Don't know. I do know this was a long time ago.
Now the "known world" has come into contact with "undiscovered" goblin nation. Adventurers would found powerful goblins of different alignments.
I think this could be as good a theory as any. I'm sure Paizo has imagined something better.
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There are many unexplored places in Glorian (and, probably, any homebrew adventure worlds). In one of these unexplored places perhaps a tribe of goblins received divine intervention.
This would at least explain why things changes in such a short time period. For me though, there would HAVE to be some identifiable feature to set them apart from normal insane goblins. I would wonder how popular they would be though as it seems that people were attracted to manic pyro's so a civilized "undiscovered" goblin nation would go against expectations.
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An orc is *definitely* scarier than a goblin. Not only are they vastly more physically powerful, and relatively better organized, not only are large-scale goblin raids relatively rare (Thistletop attacked Sandpoint once under the influence of of powerful non-goblin leaders, and before that mostly stole junk and flotsam; Belkzen attacks its neighbors *constantly*), but orcs are dedicated to a God who wants to *literally destroy everything.* Say what you will about the tenets of Lamashtu, or the Barghest Hero-Gods at least its an ethos.
Are they though? When you see one you often have dozens of goblins and goblins are insane... An orc JUST want to attack you while a goblin wants your entire town to burn...
Orcs want to do more than just attack you. Most half-orcs came into existence through sexual violence. That's pretty close to the top for "crimes people are horrified by." Other standard orc practices include enslaving other races, and brutalizing children and elderly of their own tribe. If anything, goblins will just kill you. An orc will use you in every manner it can think of, THEN kill you. The only PF race I can name that is more disgusting is the Ogre. Even hobgoblins are better than orcs.
Secondly, it actually isn't hard to tell race in game. It REQUIRES a disguise check to seem like another race, rangers never seem to have an issue telling they are part human and having "much stronger orc blood than human blood" in no way impacts identifying them as a race.
I think I didn't make my point clear. People can tell the difference between orcs and half-orcs. Many of them just don't care. "They also tend to be feared or attacked outright by humans who don’t bother making the distinction between full orcs and half bloods." I brought up the dwarf ranger because things like Hatred don't provide a larger bonus against orcs than half-orcs. There's an implication there that dwarves hate half-orcs just as much as orcs and attack accordingly, much like the aforementioned humans.
The lifespan of the goblins is truly meaningless. It's the lifespan of people that recall everything bad the old goblins did. Does the guy who lost all his chickens to those darn goblins CARE if that goblin isn't the exact same one that did that before? Nope. If you assume people can't even tell 1/2 orcs from orcs, how do they tell good goblins from the endless supply of bad ones?
I'm not arguing that all people will make be able to make distinction, or that they will care enough to try. I'm arguing that discrimination is a spectrum on which different people hold differing levels of animosity towards different races. Goblins and half-orcs may be at different points on that spectrum, but it is the same spectrum.
And the reason a generation of friendly goblins is relevant is because a useful tool for dismantling discrimination on an individual level tends to be getting to know different kinds of people, and realizing that they may not fit into your pre-conceived notions. (Or in some cases, preventing those notions from taking root in your mind in the first place.) Not everyone is going to be converted, and it doesn't happen overnight, but it tends to happen.
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And the reason a generation of friendly goblins is relevant is because a useful tool for dismantling discrimination on an individual level tends to be getting to know different kinds of people, and realizing that they may not fit into your pre-conceived notions. (Or in some cases, preventing those notions from taking root in your mind in the first place.) Not everyone is going to be converted, and it doesn't happen overnight, but it tends to happen.
I don't buy it. Not long ago I saw a german diplomat say that germany had a hard time taking a leading role in multi country initiatives because people seem to remember something that happened in the first half of the 1900's... IMO 10 years is FAR, FAR to little time. You'd NEED a new generation of the other races that don't have memories of the 'bad' goblins. I JUST don't see people buying 'they are ALL good' after a single aberrant generation.
An orc is *definitely* scarier than a goblin.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't find death from stabbing worse than death from arson: You're dead either way. Add to that goblins travel in packs [the smallest suggested Organization is gang (4–9)] while orcs can be solitary. So it's really, is an orc scarier than 4-9 goblins...
"Goblins are a race of childlike creatures with a destructive and voracious nature that makes them almost universally despised. Weak and cowardly, goblins are frequently manipulated or enslaved by stronger creatures that need destructive, disposable foot soldiers. Those goblins that rely on their own wits to survive live on the fringes of society and feed on refuse and the weaker members of more civilized races. Most other races view them as virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate."
"Goblins tend to view other beings as sources of food, which makes for poor relations with most civilized races. Goblins often survive on the fringes of human civilization, preying on weak or lost travelers and occasionally raiding small settlements to fuel their voracious appetites. They have a special animosity toward gnomes, and celebrate the capturing or killing of such victims with a feast".
And don't forget "they prefer human and gnome flesh".
So you can expect them to murder "weak or lost travelers" [and most likely EAT them] and to 'raid small settlements'.
An orc is *definitely* scarier than a goblin. Not only are they vastly more physically powerful, and relatively better organized, not only are large-scale goblin raids relatively rare (Thistletop attacked Sandpoint once under the influence of of powerful non-goblin leaders, and before that mostly stole junk and flotsam; Belkzen attacks its neighbors *constantly*), but orcs are dedicated to a God who wants to *literally destroy everything.* Say what you will about the tenets of Lamashtu, or the Barghest Hero-Gods at least its an ethos.
Since half-orcs have been around so long, players aren't bothered by orcs or half-orcs inclusion in the game or core races (likes some are about goblins).
Maybe all/what orcs really need is a new pantheon: the pantheon of the One-Eye replaced by the pantheon of Asgard.
I can easily imagine (some version of) Odin seeing Orcs potential as Vikings. He would have no issue with destroying the brutish, hateful, small pantheon and replacing them with his own. All orcs would know is that they worshiped a one-eyed god then and they worship a one-eyed god now.
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An orc is *definitely* scarier than a goblin. Not only are they vastly more physically powerful, and relatively better organized, not only are large-scale goblin raids relatively rare (Thistletop attacked Sandpoint once under the influence of of powerful non-goblin leaders, and before that mostly stole junk and flotsam; Belkzen attacks its neighbors *constantly*), but orcs are dedicated to a God who wants to *literally destroy everything.* Say what you will about the tenets of Lamashtu, or the Barghest Hero-Gods at least its an ethos.Since half-orcs have been around so long, players aren't bothered by orcs or half-orcs inclusion in the game or core races (likes some are about goblins).
Maybe all/what orcs really need is a new pantheon: the pantheon of the One-Eye replaced by the pantheon of Asgard.
I can easily imagine (some version of) Odin seeing Orcs potential as Vikings. He would have no issue with destroying the brutish, hateful, small pantheon and replacing them with his own. All orcs would know is that they worshiped a one-eyed god then and they worship a one-eyed god now.
I really don't think Orcs are dumb enough to confuse the Nordic Pantheon for the Golarion Orc Pantheon.
Aside from the fact you're getting your Orcs confused. It's the D&D Orcs that worship a one-eye god, not the PF ones.
And to be fair, I'd be about as against full-blooded Orcs in Core as I am Goblins: the setting hasn't presented them as anything I'd consider a Core race.
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Hobgoblins could make a decent monstrous race. They are organized, able to do teamwork, and hired by many countries of Golarion as mercenaries like Molthune or Cheliax. They seems, depending on the tribe, more Lawful than Evil, and they even have a country of their own in Tian Xia.
And they look cool.
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And the reason a generation of friendly goblins is relevant is because a useful tool for dismantling discrimination on an individual level tends to be getting to know different kinds of people, and realizing that they may not fit into your pre-conceived notions. (Or in some cases, preventing those notions from taking root in your mind in the first place.) Not everyone is going to be converted, and it doesn't happen overnight, but it tends to happen.I don't buy it. Not long ago I saw a german diplomat say that germany had a hard time taking a leading role in multi country initiatives because people seem to remember something that happened in the first half of the 1900's... IMO 10 years is FAR, FAR to little time. You'd NEED a new generation of the other races that don't have memories of the 'bad' goblins. I JUST don't see people buying 'they are ALL good' after a single aberrant generation.
An orc is *definitely* scarier than a goblin.We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't find death from stabbing worse than death from arson: You're dead either way. Add to that goblins travel in packs [the smallest suggested Organization is gang (4–9)] while orcs can be solitary. So it's really, is an orc scarier than 4-9 goblins...
"Goblins are a race of childlike creatures with a destructive and voracious nature that makes them almost universally despised. Weak and cowardly, goblins are frequently manipulated or enslaved by stronger creatures that need destructive, disposable foot soldiers. Those goblins that rely on their own wits to survive live on the fringes of society and feed on refuse and the weaker members of more civilized races. Most other races view them as virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate."
"Goblins tend to view other beings as sources of food, which makes for poor relations with most civilized races. Goblins often survive on the fringes of human civilization, preying on weak or lost travelers and occasionally...
You keep saying the worse orcs do is stab you. If that were true we wouldn't have half-orcs.
Since half-orcs have been around so long, players aren't bothered by orcs or half-orcs inclusion in the game or core races (likes some are about goblins).Maybe all/what orcs really need is a new pantheon: the pantheon of the One-Eye replaced by the pantheon of Asgard.
I can easily imagine (some version of) Odin seeing Orcs potential as Vikings. He would have no issue with destroying the brutish, hateful, small pantheon and replacing them with his own. All orcs would know is that they worshiped a one-eyed god then and they worship a one-eyed god now.
I really don't think Orcs are dumb enough to confuse the Nordic Pantheon for the Golarion Orc Pantheon.
Aside from the fact you're getting your Orcs confused. It's the D&D Orcs that worship a one-eye god, not the PF ones.
And to be fair, I'd be about as against full-blooded Orcs in Core as I am Goblins: the setting hasn't presented them as anything I'd consider a Core race.
Oops. You're right. My mistake.
I've just associated orcs with their one-eyed god for too long. Introducing the Asgardian Pantheon would almost be returning the status quo for them.
On the other hand, orcs are known for being neither intelligent or wise. They might not notice or care.
How much would it change Goblin society if a Good-aligned goblin were to pass the test of the Starstone?Not for me at least. It proves a statistical anomaly, that's all. IMO it has no bearing on the rest of the race. If a good Aboleth passed the test of the Starstone I'm not going to invite every Aboleth to town because that somehow changed the entire race.
What if said good-goblin god were leading an army alongside the other races to push back against one of the numerous threats in the inner sea (The Worldwound, The Whispering Tyrant, Aboleths, several shape changers inclined to infiltrate, Runelords if any remain, whatever the Brothers of the Seal guard, etc)? Do you think an entire army helping save (a large chunk of) the world combined with some newer 'anomalous' diplomat goblins working could get them a chance? I think something like that is my current theory. It is within the scope of a 1-20 AP, would likely change enough to boost status, is something that could be a sizable surprise that Jason Bulmahn couldn't mention yet, and might require quite a few details being hammered out.
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How much would it change Goblin society if a Good-aligned goblin were to pass the test of the Starstone?Not for me at least. It proves a statistical anomaly, that's all. IMO it has no bearing on the rest of the race. If a good Aboleth passed the test of the Starstone I'm not going to invite every Aboleth to town because that somehow changed the entire race.What if said good-goblin god were leading an army alongside the other races to push back against one of the numerous threats in the inner sea (The Worldwound, The Whispering Tyrant, Aboleths, several shape changers inclined to infiltrate, Runelords if any remain, whatever the Brothers of the Seal guard, etc)? Do you think an entire army helping save (a large chunk of) the world combined with some newer 'anomalous' diplomat goblins working could get them a chance? I think something like that is my current theory. It is within the scope of a 1-20 AP, would likely change enough to boost status, is something that could be a sizable surprise that Jason Bulmahn couldn't mention yet, and might require quite a few details being hammered out.
That entire setup does not change my opinion in the SLIGHTEST.
What if a demon god that somehow turned good did the exact same thing. Am I NOW expected to think all demons are now good? Or even some? Why does the actions of a single creature alter every existing goblin? What if it's a single good Aboleth? Should I go around hugging other random Aboleth? That's a HARD no.
As to diplomat goblins... Quite honestly, I'd assume some kind of shapechanger trying to cash in on the goblin god hype because we have an entire history and generations of experience with goblins and they don't act like that. AT the VERY best I might think the god is magically controlling them somehow and worry what happens if/when it breaks...
I just can't imagine a setup where just 10 years could change the entire world's perception of goblins. It would take a new generation of other core races IMO to see any significant change. So 60+ years for 1/2 orcs, 70+ years for humans, 100+ for halflings, 125+ for 1/2 elves, 200+ for gnomes, 250+ for dwarves and 350+ for elves... As long as your father/grandmother/ect tell you tales of goblin attacks [or you have personal experiences with them], far off tales of grand deeds takes a back seat.
You keep saying the worse orcs do is stab you. If that were true we wouldn't have half-orcs.And goblins want to EAT you... not necessarily before you're dead... And maybe after they set you on fire... After killing your dog... And torturing your horse... because it sounded fun...
See an orc is understandable: they think strength is everything but they are sane and can be dealt with in a logical way. Think star trek klingons.
Goblins are just crazy. LITERALLY crazy. Pyromania. Cannibal [or whatever eating sentient creatures is, maybe sentientivore?]. Phobias. Lack of impulse control. ect.
My point is that goblins can do EVERYTHING and orc could and then defile your body before devouring it... Or just about anything else cuz chaos incarnate... Plus fire.
And my point is that orcs can and will do everything that goblins do, including defile your body before devouring it, because they *worship the apocalypse*, and they are much, much, much more competent at it than goblins are.
And my point is that orcs can and will do everything that goblins do, including defile your body before devouring it, because they *worship the apocalypse*, and they are much, much, much more competent at it than goblins are.
The entire orc race like human/gnome flesh? Where does it say anything close to that. I know goblins say that... Secondly, you ignored the point that goblins smallest grouping is a gang. AGAIN it's 1 competent orc vs (4–9) goblins [or "much, much, much more" goblins]. Thirdly, apocalypse is FAR from a universal deity: for instance, Baphomet is worshiped for "mastery over beast" and has no special interest in defilement or eating sentients. In contrast, ALL goblins like the taste of human/gnome flesh...
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on 'who is the worst' as it's kind of off topic as orc isn't even a core race.
Are we *sure* that elves don't enjoy the taste of human flesh, they just refrain from indulging because of a cultural taboo and respect for other sapient species?
I mean, I've read that human flesh tastes like pork ("long pig") and pork is pretty tasty...
I've played good aligned characters who were reformed cannibals. Even if they maintain a vegan diet that doesn't mean they stopped liking the taste, there's just a big difference between "I kinda want to eat that brigand" and "I am eating that brigand" ethically speaking.
Graystone, my understanding from Dev comments is that the entire world is not turning on a dime about their attitude towards goblins, but something between now and PF2's timeline will mark something akin to a gradual turning point, a work-in-progress shift. Your world will be changing whether your prejudice towards goblins does or not.
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On orcs vs goblins: let's ignore the actual moral implications of their behaviors for a second and look at how the average person reacts to them in communities they actually threaten.
Orcs:
of Trunau’s understanding that capture by orcs is often
far worse than a quick death, and thus all residents need
to be prepared to take their own lives or offer mercy to
the wounded in the event of capture. Ironically, what
was originally a grim necessity has become a symbol of
adulthood and independence, and many children wait
impatiently for their twelfth birthdays, on which they’re
presented with their own hopeknives and shown which
arteries to cut should they or their loved ones fall into
enemy hands
Goblins:
on fire, getting stepped on by horses, or drowning in rain barrels
that were only half full in the first place render memories of the
raid in an almost comical light.
Orc raids leave lasting scars on communities such that people give every 12 year old a knife to kill themselves and their family, rather than risk the horrors of capture. Goblin raids get reduced to joke fodder by the end of the week. But yeah, clearly people are more scared of goblins.
I swear, the more people claim they don't want core goblins because it breaks canon, the more canon they have to ignore.
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Yeah...I've been trying the argument that people as a whole don't kill goblins on sight in any canonical text anywhere, mostly due to finding them amusing and pathetic rather than threatening in a bunch of threads now. I've even cited various canonical sources for this.
People keep arguing anyway, actively arguing against the existing canon and insisting that goblins are killed on sight and seen everywhere as among the worst monsters in existence.
People clearly have some pretty extreme goblin headcanon they are not inclined to give up.
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Are we *sure* that elves don't enjoy the taste of human flesh, they just refrain from indulging because of a cultural taboo and respect for other sapient species?
I mean, I've read that human flesh tastes like pork ("long pig") and pork is pretty tasty...
LOL The only people the books TELL us has experience in that is goblins. SO it REALLY doesn't matter if others would enjoy other core races flesh, we only have one instance of one being KNOWN for it. [also, goblins are known for that too]
I've played good aligned characters who were reformed cannibals. Even if they maintain a vegan diet that doesn't mean they stopped liking the taste, there's just a big difference between "I kinda want to eat that brigand" and "I am eating that brigand" ethically speaking.
That's fine. Did everyone KNOW you were one? On sight? Are there stories going around that you where that way. It's not really comparable as we're talking about a single person vs an ENTIRE race: it's comparable if you came from a RACE of cannibals.
Graystone, my understanding from Dev comments is that the entire world is not turning on a dime about their attitude towards goblins, but something between now and PF2's timeline will mark something akin to a gradual turning point, a work-in-progress shift. Your world will be changing whether your prejudice towards goblins does or not.
That's my understanding too... which makes it super, super odd that psycho-pyro's that prefer human/gnome flesh get a huge shift in ten years. It's a HUGE shift. The shortest lifespan of the core races is 60+ years so everyone is still going to recall is bob got eaten by goblins or goblins burned down jim's barn.
I want these in my game now.I just had a worse thought than the obliteration of all knowledge on Golarian. Half-goblins.kender-goblins! An unholy mixture that takes the worst traits from each race: kind of like space herpes but less likable. ;)
Ewww... You can have all of mine then so you now have twice the number of kender-goblins. :P
Yeah...I've been trying the argument that people as a whole don't kill goblins on sight in any canonical text anywhere
PRD "Most other races view them as virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate.": Boy, I just can't figure out where people get the idea that people try to kill them when they've tried and failed to exterminate them...
"Goblins tend to view other beings as sources of food", "consider the flesh of humans and gnomes a rare and difficult-to-obtain delicacy" and "they prefer human and gnome flesh": They want to kill and EAT you... Lets all hug it out?
"they frequently go to war or execute raids against other races to sate their pernicious urges and fill their vast larders": so, yeah... they often try to kill and maybe eat you.
"Goblins are a race of childlike creatures with a destructive and voracious nature that makes them almost universally despised.": almost everyone HATES them.
If it's not attack on sight it's FAR, FAR, FAR from welcoming: at best it's like seeing vermin and a majority of people kill those to get them out of there area.
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I mean, the thing about "Goblins enjoy the taste of human flesh" not bothering me is that so do cats. If you die, and nobody notices and subsequently nobody is there to feed the cat, your cat is going to start eating you right away. A housecat won't try to eat you if it seems hard and it has better alternatives, but kitty has no compunctions about eating you.
Nonetheless, people love cats. I love my cat. I have no doubt he would eat me if circumstances made it a good idea.
So why not interpret "Goblins are sadists who are willing to eat people" through the lens of "well, I can say the same about cats".
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I mean, the thing about "Goblins enjoy the taste of human flesh" not bothering me is that so do cats. If you die, and nobody notices and subsequently nobody is there to feed the cat, your cat is going to start eating you right away. A housecat won't try to eat you if it seems hard and it has better alternatives, but kitty has no compunctions about eating you.
Nonetheless, people love cats. I love my cat. I have no doubt he would eat me if circumstances made it a good idea.
So why not interpret "Goblins are sadists who are willing to eat people" through the lens of "well, I can say the same about cats".
That's a terrible example, cats are monsters that kill for fun. If they didn't have fur, didn't make cute noises, and could wield knives a lot less people would be fond of them.
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I mean, the thing about "Goblins enjoy the taste of human flesh" not bothering me is that so do cats.
If cats were also known for setting fires and raiding peoples houses to kill and eat people I think more people would be dog people...
SERIOUSLY: "almost universally despised", "Most other races view them as virulent parasites", "destructive and voracious nature". Attach THAT to cat and no one now has a cat... The fact that a goblin would REALLY enjoy eating you for lunch is just the icing on the 'goblins are just awful' cake.
As to "through the lens of", I've been told over and over again goblins have free will and can change. I don't blame a lion if some dude gets eaten by one: don't poke the cat. I blame the goblin though as the goblin has the capacity to know better and STILL does it.
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As a related question, what gods would an adventuring goblin conceivably worship? Maybe they wouldn't go full celestial realms with their new devotion, but there are certainly a bunch of other acceptable deities for goblins to discover in their new lives that aren't the Mother of Monsters and the Hero Gods.
I had a Goblin Paladin of Jaidz once. A god that gives courage? Yes please!
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cats are monsters that kill for fun.
I think you misspoke here. ;)
Cats are definitely more evil than Pathfinder goblins in general.
Yep there is just a universal hatred of all that purring and fluffiness. I mean did you see what it did to the rug... clearly evil. ;)
Incidentally goblins also hate dogs.
Clearly they are working with cats behind the scenes to kill and eat those sweet, sweet humans!!!
#1 raid house
#2 kill humans
#4 profit
Good thing I went ranger my dog protects me.
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That's a terrible example, cats are monsters that kill for fun. If they didn't have fur, didn't make cute noises, and could wield knives a lot less people would be fond of them.I mean, the thing about "Goblins enjoy the taste of human flesh" not bothering me is that so do cats. If you die, and nobody notices and subsequently nobody is there to feed the cat, your cat is going to start eating you right away. A housecat won't try to eat you if it seems hard and it has better alternatives, but kitty has no compunctions about eating you.
Nonetheless, people love cats. I love my cat. I have no doubt he would eat me if circumstances made it a good idea.
So why not interpret "Goblins are sadists who are willing to eat people" through the lens of "well, I can say the same about cats".
sphinx cats are pretty popular :P
That's a terrible example, cats are monsters that kill for fun. If they didn't have fur, didn't make cute noises, and could wield knives a lot less people would be fond of them.
I feel quite the opposite. People didn't welcome cats into their homes because they were cute so much as because they were useful. Backwards European people once believed that Cats were the devil's servants and as a result a significant portion of the continent died from a plague transmitted via fleas on rats.
It's just once we figure out "controlling vermin is really useful" we fell in love with other charms that cats have. Why can't it work the same with goblins?
Yeah, but housecats have been at it since the early days of D&D! After all, a commoner could fight off a goblin but there were threads about Housecats killing Commoners....
LOL I remember when our wizard was taken down by a house cat in a 1e game... good times. ;)
Clearly the cats are the masterminds.
Well they are smarter and focused as long as no one has a magic laser pointer. ;)
