In what context is it legal, or even just socially acceptable, to manufacture androids?
We know the technology is still available (and that some evil corporations abuse it to create slaves). Who is allowed to? Is it considered ethical at all to manufacture a person with a soul, or is it more unethical to restrict? Are only androids allowed to create other androids in the Pact Worlds?
Because androids don't die of old age (and simply choose to "recycle"), I imagine that, if it continued at even close to the same rate after they were liberated, android production would cause their population to grow tremendously, creating pushes for androids to become the first pioneers to terraform/colonize new worlds (which they are ideally suited for, since they do not have to breathe).
I expect the pact worlds at large just have laws against creating souled slaves and actually manufacturing shells is entirely legal, as long as you place no obligations on the newly created life. With Androids recognized as a fully independent species you would get into an awkward position trying to regulate another species' reproduction.
It is indeed a very awkward position. The weirder thing about that is, though, is that the book says the androids the process of renewal (recycling shells) is viewed "as procreation", and that is, to my knowledge, the only time that the words "androids" and "procreation" are ever used together.
Android foundries are only talked about twice (in their race entry and the entry on the AAF faction). Both times, it's specifically about pre-emancipation or "illegal android foundries".
Assuming that there are times androids are crafted as a form of procreation, as strange as that would be to regulatea race's procreation, I feel like it would be even stranger not to require some degree of licensing or limitations. "Placing no obligations" is a hard thign to define when an android more or less springs into existence as a fully formed adult capable of language (which having their age adulthood listed as 0yrs suggests) that only knows what you tell it.
So if someone creates an android, they can't enslave it, but they still have to take care of its needs and are generally responsible for it, right? Otherwise, it's child abandonment.
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To answer the OPs question, it is against pact worlds law, so I assume the Veskarium can create androids? I mean, there is no proof that they do, but I assume it would be legal for them if they could. In fact, that would be a good story, an unscroupulus company opens up a branch in the Veskarium specifically so that they could legally build android slave labor again. It would make a good AP to stop them.
To answer the OPs question, it is against pact worlds law
Do they cover that in the earlier Pact World section in the new book? I havent read much of that part yet (had to dive right into Castrovel and went from there)
Let's say I make an android, let's call him Brock. That cost a huge chunk of change, cause he's a quality dude. Training him for a job is not free, either. Plus he has to be clothed, fed, and housed while he learns his job.
Does Brock owe me, the manufacturer, anything for all this ?
I find the rulebook confusing as it implies such an obligation to be "unscrupulous". Methinks the flavor text was written by an extremely young person.
Is it "unscrupulous" when real-life organizations demand 4 years of service from people in exchange for training ?
Brock owes his very existence to me, yet all I ask is 4 years of work.
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Let's say I make an android, let's call him Brock. That cost a huge chunk of change, cause he's a quality dude. Training him for a job is not free, either. Plus he has to be clothed, fed, and housed while he learns his job.
Does Brock owe me, the manufacturer, anything for all this ?
I find the rulebook confusing as it implies such an obligation to be "unscrupulous". Methinks the flavor text was written by an extremely young person.
Is it "unscrupulous" when real-life organizations demand 4 years of service from people in exchange for training ?
Brock owes his very existence to me, yet all I ask is 4 years of work.
Brock also didn’t ask to be born, and didn’t concent to work as a slave laborer, and doesn’t have the option to quit and go into bankruptcy if his boss beats him, antagonizes him, or does worse things. I’m still going to go with unscrupulus there.
Yall hit the nail on the head.
There's so much about this situation that doesn't have any direct analogue to real life... which is why I love talking about it.
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Just the fact that you, the hypothetical boss, refer to yourself as "manufacturer" by itself implies Brock is an object and you are the owner. I could see why that would be very controversial in Brock's world.
At first at least being able to present a story to Brock and control his information would likely get Brock's cooperation.
About the time Brock gets access to free information and a lawyer that plan would go downhill. You can probably put off that day until you get your 4 years though.
Now suppose you're completely open and let Brock know everything within the first week, before he has to sign anything. You might get his free and willing cooperation, but you might get nothing but his determination to leave ASAP, bankrupt or not. Either you load the extra cost on to the androids who stay (is that fair?) or you write off the cost and the operation is less profitable.
I suppose other options are a large consortium who can catch most of the androids interests by their variety, or a government who offers subsidies/runs the android building because they're low on population or because it's a pet project of their existing android population. I'd hope that one of these options are the most common.
Keep in mind that the Pact Worlds isn't the only government body out there. I can easily see the Azlanti Empire or Veskarium have their own android manufactories. One for slave labor and another for some other purpose. Even the Aspis Consortium likely has some out of system manufactories of there own but are very careful to keep their android workforce away from the attention of Pact World authorities.
The AAF exists for a reason.
Let's say I make an android, let's call him Brock. That cost a huge chunk of change, cause he's a quality dude. Training him for a job is not free, either. Plus he has to be clothed, fed, and housed while he learns his job.
Does Brock owe me, the manufacturer, anything for all this ?
I find the rulebook confusing as it implies such an obligation to be "unscrupulous". Methinks the flavor text was written by an extremely young person.
Is it "unscrupulous" when real-life organizations demand 4 years of service from people in exchange for training ?
Brock owes his very existence to me, yet all I ask is 4 years of work.
Does a child legally owe anything to their parents? Wouldn't humans be up in arms if their parents required them to pay off the expenses of their upbringing? Obviously there may be gratitude from a child, or a sense of obligation, but I doubt anyone would feel comfortable with a legal imperative.
Vocational training is something the trainee consents to. It's an exchange of services. Being born can't be consented to, because consent must occur before the act being consented to. You can't consent to anything if you don't exist yet. It's not entirely unlike bringing someone to a new country against their will, then expecting them to pay off the price of travel. Which would be, you know, slavery.
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Let's say I make an android, let's call him Brock. That cost a huge chunk of change, cause he's a quality dude. Training him for a job is not free, either. Plus he has to be clothed, fed, and housed while he learns his job.
Does Brock owe me, the manufacturer, anything for all this ?
I find the rulebook confusing as it implies such an obligation to be "unscrupulous". Methinks the flavor text was written by an extremely young person.
Is it "unscrupulous" when real-life organizations demand 4 years of service from people in exchange for training ?
Brock owes his very existence to me, yet all I ask is 4 years of work.
I don't think you need to be young to consider slavery unscrupulous
My best bet is that waste is handled through those recicling slimes that convert stuff to UPB and the pact worlds law requires a certain amount of those UPB to be donated to automated, solar powered android "factories" that produce a certain (probably small) amount of androids per set amount of time.
It was mentioned that Aballon has a few android foundries, and I would imagine that there are a few android colonies that have them. The legal, scrupulous foundaries would be places that need to increase their population and work force, but give the created being rights upon creation. So it sounds like the laws of the Pact Worlds is more along the lines of a birthing chamber; while it would be technically possible for corporations to make a birthing chamber/cloning machine, you wouldn’t be allowed to own the beings that came out of it, so no corporation has one (that they would admit to).
They also introduced SROs in the Pact Worlds book, and those confuse me a bit as how they are presented. The world as presented has robots/droids/SROs everywhere throughout society, but they society on paper gives rights to anything that is sentient, but the line as to what is sentient and what isn’t really isn’t clear.
It’s not Star Wars where droids are clearly intelligent, but they are property and have no rights. It’s more like Futurama where sentient robots fall along all roles in society. Bender is owned by the Professor who gets arrested for voiding the EULA when bender overclocked his processor, but Bender is legally responsible for himself when he gets arrested for pimping. In their society you have some sentient robots who were build to function as drink machines and toasters who are property, and then you have robots who are priests, judges, heads of corporations, famous actors, and royalty who are citizens.
The Android Abolitionist Front has to liberate someone, and for them to be a major faction means that there is some line that the starfinder society has drawn that means that there are sentient being who are owned. If the line was clear and absolute then rogue corps were the only ones enslaving androids/SROs then it would be a matter for the Stewards. But since the AAF is a non-state actor, then I am assuming they sometime board your ship and liberate your computer because it gained sentience, which would really piss people off.
I think it will depend on your campaign and what you and your players want out of the setting. From the way the android player in my campaign has played it, and from what I’ve heard on the real play podcasts the most common backstory from androids is how they were built and owned by some terrible group doing something they hated, and so they escaped to join up with the party. That’s a strong backstory, so I’m playing it in my campaign that sentients can be owned, though society likes to think that they don’t do that. Which means that my campaign falls on the Futurama side of it, though not as intentionally ridiculous. Some sentients are owned like AI and robots, some are free citizens like Androids and Robots but are often indentured or are economically enslaved, and some are clearly citizens with strong rights like the machines from Aballon. But in each case there is a lot of grey areas, and that is where the conflict in your stories come from.
(Sorry for the long post, we had to cancel the last session and I guess I’m jonesing to play or talk about all this kind of stuff.)
Not every droid has a soul correct? Is there a way to prevent a soul from entering a droid?
Say I really just want a droid that knows the binary language of moisture vaporators, pay some Jawa a bunch of money, two days later he gets a soul and now I have to free it.
It was mentioned that Aballon has a few android foundries...
Do you have a citation? I don't doubt you, but I am unable to find any mention of android foundries that were not either pre-emancipation or current but illegal. If there has been, then that would change a lot for me right now.
It was mentioned that Aballon has a few android foundries...Do you have a citation? I don't doubt you, but I am unable to find any mention of android foundries that were not either pre-emancipation or current but illegal. If there has been, then that would change a lot for me right now.
The pact worlds book says that the faction called "Those Who Become" created seed ships that contained automated forges and "foundry crèches for the construction of androids."
It was mentioned that Aballon has a few android foundries...Do you have a citation? I don't doubt you, but I am unable to find any mention of android foundries that were not either pre-emancipation or current but illegal. If there has been, then that would change a lot for me right now.The pact worlds book says that the faction called "Those Who Become" created seed ships that contained automated forges and "foundry crèches for the construction of androids."
Okay, so that means the only positive/neutral context for android construction we've heard of so far is still taking place outside the Pact Worlds, with the intent of populating new worlds in other systems.
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I really feel like there needs to be a whole book or write up on Androids and SRO's in general. There is so much gray area with both and things that are not really well explained. How they are made. what the legalities are and a whole host of other questions constantly spring to mind. Love both races but would love to learn a lot more about them. I mean is there some turing test that they apply and say yep this ones sentent and nope this one doesnt have a soul yet back to the mines with you!
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The pact worlds book says that the faction called "Those Who Become" created seed ships that contained automated forges and "foundry crèches for the construction of androids."
I though get there was a mention of one in the core rule book as well, but I couldn’t find it. I did find reference to another in the Pact Worlds book on the sun, also operated by Aballon. “Fireside Foundries” is run by Aballon to create fire resistant anacites and androids, and presumably SROs. It feels like the foundries are too small to warrant a mention in the planetary write ups. That makes sense if there are these secret Corp foundries all over the place that the AAF are liberating that it can be something small and not a major planetary feature.
It also gives me something for bad guys to smuggle.
If any AI is eligible to get a soul I kinda want to mess with my mechanic player and give his exocortex a really annoying soul.
If any AI is eligible to get a soul I kinda want to mess with my mechanic player and give his exocortex a really annoying soul.
While I don't think it is said explicitly for the exocortex, the mechanic's drone does not become a "True AI" (and capable of acting with complete autonomy) until 20th level. I imagine the same sort of development parallels in the exocortex.
At least, that's what we're going with. My friend's mechanic's exocortex (what a mouthful) is being rp'd as a glorified Alexa at the low levels, but her increasing level of self awareness is one of our major subplots.
On a slight tangent: how do you approach a newly "born" android? The CRB lists their age of maturity as 0 years, but since this parallel to 18 years for humans, I think it's fair to say they still have a degree of learning and maturity left to do.
I imagine newly born "androids" as having a very narrow, robot-like approach to their world that quickly (by human maturation standards) expands to cover complex concepts like justice and love over the course of a year or so, to the point that they become human in all but body and name.
A lot of the things we're talking about with newly made androids are just as unsettling if we imagine them happening with a human that just turned 18 and left highschool for the first time.
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One of the Pathfinder supplements goes into this... People of the Stars maybe? I don't have it on hand but remember it to be something like, Androids innately know many things to help them immediately get started in their lives. Motor skills, I think languages, basic social skills too. A big thing about Androids is that while they may be different, they aren't really robot like by default. Having difficulty processing emotions is a common trait in humans too.On a slight tangent: how do you approach a newly "born" android? The CRB lists their age of maturity as 0 years, but since this parallel to 18 years for humans, I think it's fair to say they still have a degree of learning and maturity left to do.
I imagine newly born "androids" as having a very narrow, robot-like approach to their world that quickly (by human maturation standards) expands to cover complex concepts like justice and love over the course of a year or so, to the point that they become human in all but body and name.
A lot of the things we're talking about with newly made androids are just as unsettling if we imagine them happening with a human that just turned 18 and left highschool for the first time.
Certainly, but when we look at humans, 18yr olds and 30yr olds generally have very different dispositions, energy levels, and decision-making strategies, despite both possessing language, motor skills, etc. I feel that fresh androids and androids that have been around the block ought to have some comparable difference as well in terms of how they'd be roleplayed.
A fresh android might possess basic skills and language, but they don't have any detailed memories or personal experiences to inform their decisions. What would a person like that look like? What would they act like, and how prone to suggestion would they be?
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it might be illegal in the Pact Worlds... but I would suspect that there are many places where the law is ignored or circumvented.
Apostae, Akiton, Eox, the Drakelands, the Diaspora... I would suspect one can find androids in virtual, if not exact, slavery.
android foundries are probably the calling card of the Azlanti Star Empire (as an aside, there was a pretty cool hinted at plot point in Eberron about the Quori and the warborn, where quori souls were being used to make the warborn and this was causing the quori to panic... no reason why that can't be made into a cool plot point for Starfinder). Azlanti merchants and tourists aren't just going to give up their android slaves because they visited absalom station.
I would guess that property rights in Aballon are conceived of in a very different manner, and that AIs "own" AIs through a variety of means, including intrusive coding and command implants. The convenient terming of slaves as "workers" is a long-held fiction on earth, and no reason to abandon that in the distant future of starfinder... I can see plantations on the sunnier sides of Verces staffed by androids working in debt peonage to Augmented landlords.
The Android Abolition Front (or whatever it's called) is a cool idea for a faction, and android slavery is a good plot generator. I wouldn't abandon either for the sake of PC or because of canon inconsistencies.
I could imagine some political groups might create new android citizens in order to sway important votes, kind of like how certain political groups allegedly support immigration for that purpose in real life.
After all, if you're responsible for giving someone a better life, then they are more likely to side with you politically.
I can also imagine a lot of anti-android groups being analogous to anti-imigration. Picketers with signs saying "Androids are taking our jobs" and the like.
I could imagine some political groups might create new android citizens in order to sway important votes, kind of like how certain political groups allegedly support immigration for that purpose in real life.
Later Ravingdork's remains would be found by Aballon authorities unable to determine just which faction managed to skillfully turn him inside out in clear retaliation for his criticisms of competitive Anacite building practices by Those Who Become.
Brock the Android is created, in a legit Pact foundry. He is wearing a teal paper jumpsuit.
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As of that moment, he has ZERO skills and (let's say) no obligations. He can sign a form, be released right then (as basically a homeless person), wearing teal paper flip-flops.
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Or he can consent to training, housing, clothing, and feeding, while working;
and be released in 4 years, with some stat mods, skills, a theme, and a class.
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Please describe how this is unfair and unscrupulous.
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Brock the Android is created, in a legit Pact foundry. He is wearing a teal paper jumpsuit.
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As of that moment, he has ZERO skills and (let's say) no obligations. He can sign a form, be released right then (as basically a homeless person), wearing teal paper flip-flops.
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Or he can consent to training, housing, clothing, and feeding, while working;
and be released in 4 years, with some stat mods, skills, a theme, and a class.
~~~
Please describe how this is unfair and unscrupulous.
The problem here is with the intent, you bring someone to life with the intent to have him work for you. Beside, what you offer him is a false choice between dying outside or working for you for 4 years. I wouldn't call that ''right'' and ''fair''
I expect that every corporation with an android forge goes through that exact same logic as it spins up a few thousand more androids, thinking they are just making a fair contract. And then the AAF blows up their headquarters if the Stewards don't actually arrest them. Though the Pact Worlds seem rife with corporate crime, so maybe not.
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Does a child legally owe anything to their parents? Wouldn't humans be up in arms if their parents required them to pay off the expenses of their upbringing? Obviously there may be gratitude from a child, or a sense of obligation, but I doubt anyone would feel comfortable with a legal imperative.I remember reading a setting (could have been Discworld) where dwarven parents keep careful ledgers of any expenses related to their offspring, and before the young dwarf can marry they or their prospective spouse has to pay those off. It was then customary for the parents to give a gift to the young couple of approximately equal value.
A key difference is that every party involved is choosing to participate in this custom, and has grown up aware of it and with ample time to prepare or to fulfill it, to to simply decide they don't want to be married or don't want to stay in dwarf society.
An android in the scenario that's been proposed does not ask to be there, has no time to prepare, and no option besides "Be my servant or starve tonight", which is not really a choice.
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We also have to consider whether or not a "fresh" (newly born with no skills or memories) android can legally consent to anything. With no skills, no memories, and no beliefs, a freshly-manufactured android would be a tabula rasa on which their creator could and would write anything they wished.
If Brock walked out of his stasis chamber and I told him he could choose to either work in my factory and be safe or walk away and be hungry and homeless, he would choose to work. He would have no idea that there was a homeless shelter down the street, or that there were humanitarian outreach programs aimed at helping fresh androids get on their feet. Not if I didn't tell him. Like a child, Brock has no prior knowledge or experiences on which to make an informed decision about his own freedom, or even to know what freedom means.
There is some precedent for this in Pathfinder, when...
...in The Divinity Drive (part 6), the nascent Iron God Unity had a little village of androids that spent their entire lives living and working in a little re-purposed promenade. They had no desire to leave because they had no knowledge of life outside or that any god was any kinder than Unity. Without the intervention of the PCs, they would have happily gone on working for and worshiping their LE god, but not because they chose to follow evil, when they were not really aware of what evil was.
A key difference is that every party involved is choosing to participate in this custom, and has grown up aware of it and with ample time to prepare or to fulfill it, to to simply decide they don't want to be married or don't want to stay in dwarf society.Does a child legally owe anything to their parents? Wouldn't humans be up in arms if their parents required them to pay off the expenses of their upbringing? Obviously there may be gratitude from a child, or a sense of obligation, but I doubt anyone would feel comfortable with a legal imperative.I remember reading a setting (could have been Discworld) where dwarven parents keep careful ledgers of any expenses related to their offspring, and before the young dwarf can marry they or their prospective spouse has to pay those off. It was then customary for the parents to give a gift to the young couple of approximately equal value.
To be honest i still think it's unfair for the parents to keep track of their children's debt. If parents aren't ready to pay for their children expenses until they get mature enough to start living by themselves, then they really shouldn't have any. Children never ask to be birthed and thus shouldn't be held accountable for things they can't decide.
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android foundries are probably the calling card of the Azlanti Star Empire (as an aside, there was a pretty cool hinted at plot point in EberronSpoiler:about the Quori and the warborn, where quori souls were being used to make the warborn and this was causing the quori to panic... no reason why that can't be made into a cool plot point for Starfinder)
There was a similar plot hook built into the TV show, Babylon 5: In the first episode, it was revealed that 11 years ago, a first contact between an Earthforce (human) exploratory starship fleet and Minbari vessels goes horribly wrong, starting the Earth-Minbari War. Earth forces were severely outmatched by the technologically superior and zealously vengeful Minbari, and within 3 years, Earth and all of humanity were facing extinction... until Minbari forces mysteriously surrendered unconditionally at the Battle of the Line. Eventually, it's revealed that...
How a Minbari soul ended up in a human pilot, and the ramifications of the Grey Council trying to keep their discovery a secret from both humans and Minbari, are major plot points explored over several seasons.
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android foundries are probably the calling card of the Azlanti Star Empire (as an aside, there was a pretty cool hinted at plot point in Eberron ** spoiler omitted **There was a similar plot hook built into the TV show, Babylon 5: In the first episode, it was revealed that 11 years ago, a first contact between an Earthforce (human) exploratory starship fleet and Minbari vessels goes horribly wrong, starting the Earth-Minbari War. Earth forces were severely outmatched by the technologically superior and zealously vengeful Minbari, and within 3 years, Earth and all of humanity were facing extinction... until Minbari forces mysteriously surrendered unconditionally at the Battle of the Line. Eventually, it's revealed that... ** spoiler omitted **
i don't think you need spoiler tags for a 25 year old show.
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i don't think you need spoiler tags for a 25 year old show.
Hmmm, not even for
I don't think anyone in their right mind would manufacture an android, given the headaches. Especially with the hippie talk of "obligation? what obligation?! I didn't ask to be born, DAD."
I mean, who would bother? Better to make a robot that doesn't piss and moan about rights and have to worry about terrorists coming to mess you up because Android-Lives-Matter.