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Man this complaint gets old. It's fantasy. In a world where people can fly and shoot lightning from the palms of their hands there are still people that are upset by 2d images of fictional characters who are comfortable with showing their physique. Reality vs fantasy aside I wonder if their are women and men in the real world who do this....
How about we let creative minds create the things they want to create in the way they want to create them. Censorship is never the answer.
Now excuse me while i go finish painting the Red Sonja miniature that my wife begged me to buy her at Gencon last year...
Get out of here with that logic!
This is all REAL. The stuff that these women are wearing wouldn't protect them from a REAL magical lighting spell!!! You think that cloth would stop a a REAL fire breathing dragon's breath?
This game should only ever have REAL stuff in it.
/s
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There's "some of our characters dress considerate and some of our characters dress risqué just like people in real life do" and there's "every single female in our artwork has a 90G breast size because duh, that's what the target demographic is here for".
Paizo is the former, few slip-ups aside (and honestly, slip-ups are sometimes unavoidable when the deadline is tight and the artist fails to read the brief with comprehension).
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I guess, just like in real life, i'm ok with the occasional woman showing a bit more than the other women do. More power to her.
As for the risque garb not making sense or being practical....i'm not to worried about a sorceress showing off her cleavage and legs in a world where people can throw fireballs, create water out of thin air, and immediately heal wounds with a prayer.
Also, I highly doubt Paizo just lets their artists draw any character however they see fit. I would think the character's creator/Paizo commissions specific art from a specific artist. I doubt any of their art is just by accident.
That being said i'm sure that Paizo sells with a bit of sex appeal in mind from time to time. That has been staple for fantasy since the beginning. Obviously I can't speak for everyone but i'm ok with that. The female players in the circles i play in are ok with that. In fact they never give it a thought.
Options are key. If my players want to play a full plate wearing female killing machine then i want them to be able to do that. If they want to be a seductive bra and loin cloth wielding witch then I want them to experience the the game and their character the way they have thought them up. If you take either of these options away then someone is going to be upset. So let everyone play the characters they visualize and artists draw the characters they want to draw. Take a breath. It's a game...
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There's "some of our characters dress considerate and some of our characters dress risqué just like people in real life do" and there's "every single female in our artwork has a 90G breast size because duh, that's what the target demographic is here for".
Paizo is the former, few slip-ups aside (and honestly, slip-ups are sometimes unavoidable when the deadline is tight and the artist fails to read the brief with comprehension).
Nah man, that's still too risky.
We should just take all females out of the game just to be safe.
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OK, turn it around:
What if Ezren was dressed in an outfit where in a combat situation there is a good chance one of his testicles might pop out? Should we all just rationalize it as he's obviously got some magical garb or a long duration spell up to prevent it from happening?
Would we all be ok when Seltyiel is depicted as striding into combat in assless chaps and a tiny g-string, his butt featured prominently for the viewers?
Would it be ok if Sajan was often depicted with a twisted spine so his pecs and butt were simultaneously presented to the viewers?
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Setting aside Seoni's general design and that revealing costume...
I don't think that the specific pose on the 2e CRB is particularly sexualized. She doesn't look contorted, she looks like she's climbing stairs while turning to face the dragon. There's some attention being drawn to her bare leg (which perhaps should not be bare given the weather) but her groin/butt area is covered by her cloak and her chest is not emphasized.
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OK, turn it around:
What if Ezren was dressed in an outfit where in a combat situation there is a good chance one of his testicles might pop out? Should we all just rationalize it as he's obviously got some magical garb or a long duration spell up to prevent it from happening?
Would we all be ok when Seltyiel is depicted as striding into combat in assless chaps and a tiny g-string, his butt featured prominently for the viewers?
Would it be ok if Sajan was often depicted with a twisted spine so his pecs and butt were simultaneously presented to the viewers?
Sure. If Paizo wanted to do that. Doesn't mean it is made for me. The funny thing is I can look away if something doesn't fit my interests or likes. I simply don't gravitate towards it. I don't shout at it and think it should be changed because "I" don't like it. I'm sure there are plenty out there that would love to see Seltyiel in assless chaps. I don't. But i'm not going to rain on those other people's parade just because i don't like it.
Once again, this is fiction. If Seoni can't wear her Varisian robes in Golarion (something that is literally written into her backstory) then i guess Catwoman should have to zip up her catsuit in the DC Universe, Red Sonja should put some normal clothes on, Mary Jane should stop being a model in the Marvel universe....i could go on.
These characters, including the iconics, are part of a visual medium and changing their appearance changes who they are. Man i'd hate to live in a world where women and men were force to only wear plain colorless fully covering garb. Something about variety being the spice of life?
Good thing is that in a table top rpg you get to make the character you want! So do that instead of trying to change a character that isn't yours.
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OK, turn it around:
What if Ezren was dressed in an outfit where in a combat situation there is a good chance one of his testicles might pop out? Should we all just rationalize it as he's obviously got some magical garb or a long duration spell up to prevent it from happening?
Would we all be ok when Seltyiel is depicted as striding into combat in assless chaps and a tiny g-string, his butt featured prominently for the viewers?
Would it be ok if Sajan was often depicted with a twisted spine so his pecs and butt were simultaneously presented to the viewers?
I mean . . . we haven’t seen Ezren, Seltyeil, or Sajan’s 2E designs yet so we can hope! (With the exception of the spine twisting. Although if anyone COULD do that it probably would be the Monk.). C’mon Wayne Reynolds!
Although first i’d recommend actually giving Seltyiel an ass. I’m just saying, there’s a reason the dude is all about showing off the front . . .
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OK, turn it around:
What if Ezren was dressed in an outfit where in a combat situation there is a good chance one of his testicles might pop out? Should we all just rationalize it as he's obviously got some magical garb or a long duration spell up to prevent it from happening?
Would we all be ok when Seltyiel is depicted as striding into combat in assless chaps and a tiny g-string, his butt featured prominently for the viewers?
Would it be ok if Sajan was often depicted with a twisted spine so his pecs and butt were simultaneously presented to the viewers?
Going in reverse order;
1) I am actually surprised that Sajan isn't depicted more often with in the twisted spine pose given that he's a monk and it is a pose that depicts fluidity, especially if its to show a dodge or something2) Assless chaps Seltyiel would be keeping in character, and in all honesty that isn't that big of a stretch from what he's wearing. Actually I'm going to have it as my head cannon that that is, in fact what he's wearing but no one notices due to the cape
3) Loincloth Ezren is the only one that is a stretch because it doesn't fit the character in anyway, but I will point out that we have seen somewhat on that level men depicted that way, the first to come to mind is the primitive human in the Game Master's Guide. So while not as prominent, it is out there, if only in some much more reduce sense. Will we get more? I don't know, but I'm not saying no to the Loincloth wearing man, they're as much a trope as the split dressed sorceress
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The female players in the circles i play in are ok with that. In fact they never give it a thought.
By definition, anyone playing Pathfinder is someone who's managed to get past the cover. What you can't count is the number of gaming-inclined women who look at that image and go, "....ehhhhh maybe this one isn't for me."
I'm not calling for a total ban on sexy sorceresses. I'll be happy if they could just not be the image that represents the entire game to the potential new player. It would be great if when I enthuse about Pathfinder to female gamers who haven't tried it, I didn't have to include "and BTW please disregard the cover."
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Seltyiel in assless chaps would probably make some folks very happy, but that wouldn't fly on something that's supposed to sell in brick & mortar stores in the U.S.
Paizo could possibly get away with some pretty funky art stuff if they were a European company, but being primarily for an U.S. audience means having to deal with U.S. hang-ups.
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The female players in the circles i play in are ok with that. In fact they never give it a thought.By definition, anyone playing Pathfinder is someone who's managed to get past the cover. What you can't count is the number of gaming-inclined women who look at that image and go, "....ehhhhh maybe this one isn't for me."
I'm not calling for a total ban on sexy sorceresses. I'll be happy if they could just not be the image that represents the entire game to the potential new player. It would be great if when I enthuse about Pathfinder to female gamers who haven't tried it, I didn't have to include "and BTW please disregard the cover."
So all you're asking is "Please put Seelah in the front cover instead of Seoni"?
I think that's a reasonable request, though I don't know if you phrased it in the best way
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So all you're asking is "Please put Seelah in the front cover instead of Seoni"?
Well, if she isn't stuck in boobalicious armor, and if she gets to strike a pose which is consistent with a humanoid musculoskeletal system, and if she isn't subjected to a composition like the one at the start of Chapter 9 where her rump is emphasized more than her face, and if a million other ways of diminishing and objectivizing women don't happen, then sure, that's one option.
I think that's a reasonable request, though I don't know if you phrased it in the best way
One learns after a while that no phrasing is ever considered truly acceptable when raising these issues, unless it involves total silence.
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So all you're asking is "Please put Seelah in the front cover instead of Seoni"?Well, if she isn't stuck in boobalicious armor, and if she gets to strike a pose which is consistent with a humanoid musculoskeletal system, and if she isn't subjected to a composition like the one at the start of Chapter 9 where her rump is emphasized more than her face, and if a million other ways of diminishing and objectivizing women don't happen, then sure, that's one option.
Well if you don't have that much faith on Paizo not somehow objectifying women, would you rather they didn't have a woman on the cover at all?
So all you're asking is "Please put Seelah in the front cover instead of Seoni"?Well, if she isn't stuck in boobalicious armor, and if she gets to strike a pose which is consistent with a humanoid musculoskeletal system, and if she isn't subjected to a composition like the one at the start of Chapter 9 where her rump is emphasized more than her face, and if a million other ways of diminishing and objectivizing women don't happen, then sure, that's one option.
I think that's a reasonable request, though I don't know if you phrased it in the best wayOne learns after a while that no phrasing is ever considered truly acceptable when raising these issues, unless it involves total silence.
Full Plate is explicitly stated in-game to be specially fitted to each individual, and has mechanics for purloined full plate to be refitted to even use it, which costs time, money, and labor. If that's how full plate is fitted to characters in-world, feminine figures included, then it wouldn't matter if the character in question was Seelah, Seoni, or some other random character.
This can be a problem regardless of sex appeal, so I fail to see why it has to be especially important to this topic unless sex appeal is one of the focii of the illustration, which it clearly isn't. Some people just can't appropriately draw human anatomy in a realistic pose, myself included. (In fact, I'm probably the worst at human anatomy, I'm better with illustrations of inanimate objects, like weapons, trinkets, and armor.) Heck, I'd even argue that some of Wayne Reynolds drawings, as skilled and detailed as they are, do betray some fabrics of realism to make room for the fantastical applications of the game. But those things have very little to do with "Ew, too much sex appeal in this game," meaning it's a borderline non-sequitur.
Fun fact: I didn't even realize that issue until you pointed it out in this very post. I was more focused on the fact that there were a bunch of vampires facing the dynamic duo than I was wondering about Seelah's pose, since the basic assumption of a blade drawn and a good enough "ready to fight" pose was basically all that was needed here. If there was an artist's version of "splitting hairs," this would probably be it, in which case I can say "Get over it."
Strangely enough, I think this might warrant a social experiment where I create a campaign in an "alternate universe" that treats all races as gender neutral "aliens" that reproduce asexually and are physically incapable of producing any biochemicals related to sexual and/or romantic stimuli, thereby reducing any physical attraction to another, though platonic feelings are still there, primarily for base survival instincts. Would people be more inclined to play such a game if the above were the actual rules, and not have to bog down their gameplay with trivialties such as this one?
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Can we agree that boobplate is just dumb though? :D
1) Its really unrealistic since that type of armor would be weaker than normal armor 2) there is no reason to design armor with boob sockets, its not like armors lack space 3) its kind of same thing as how some anime/comicbooks draw shirts as if they had sockets for boobs, it just looks dumb
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I'm not very good at articulating this kind of stuff and I appreciate art is very subjective. Nonetheless, Seoni is my favorite iconic and I've certainly felt uncomfortable owning some depictions of her over the years. In my opinion:
For me, it's not about the risque-ness of an outfit or the amount of flesh on display. It's about whether the character is doing badass things and thus looking sexy or whether the focus is just on saying "hey I'm sexy!".
There's art I don't like with men characters as well, but they're rarely posing to that extreme.
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Oh gosh, that second one. *cringe*
I don’t think I would have been able to bring myself to buy that if I had to bring it up to the counter at my comic shop.
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I'm not very good at articulating this kind of stuff and I appreciate art is very subjective. Nonetheless, Seoni is my favorite iconic and I've certainly felt uncomfortable owning some depictions of her over the years. In my opinion:
For me, it's not about the risque-ness of an outfit or the amount of flesh on display. It's about whether the character is doing badass things and thus looking sexy or whether the focus is just on saying "hey I'm sexy!".
There's art I don't like with men characters as well, but they're rarely posing to that extreme.
Oh wow. Seeing that second one for the first time just now, I totally get where the OP is coming from.
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I should probably make clear the fact that the pictures I used to illustrate my “line” were from the comics series. I daresay Paizo have less (if any) editorial say when it comes to the artwork there.
Hey Steve, I see that your 'My Pictures/Nice/Sexy/Seoni Always In My Heart' folder is going strong, nice! :)
I get the feeling I’m missing almost all of that comment.
*flashback to the rest of the class giggling at me at camp for screwing up some early 80s slang*
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Thank you Steve for bringing such great examples to the table. The problem that the OP brought up is a fairly common thing in art, but it usually has this same problem that people don't understand what the complaint is. Its okay for women to be sexy, to wear revealing clothing, etc. That isn't the problem. The problem is when you cross the line between sexy and sexualized.
Paizo has been pretty good about this, to the best of my knowledge. Most of the artwork that comes to my mind when I think of the characters isn't problematic. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and Steve posted a very good example. The OP is not asking for every female character to be covered from head to toe, but the request of avoiding objectifying imagery in the game is hardly outlandish.
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I would say that Paizo has a pretty good ratio of Cheesecake/Reasonable ladies. As far as designs go, the 'sexy lady' seems more like the odd on out. I'd like to keep that with one caveat. More dudes. All we really have is Seltyiel, really. Sajan, while shirtless, does not really exude sex appeal.
BRING ON THE HUNKS
There's "some of our characters dress considerate and some of our characters dress risqué just like people in real life do" and there's "every single female in our artwork has a 90G breast size because duh, that's what the target demographic is here for".
Paizo is the former, few slip-ups aside (and honestly, slip-ups are sometimes unavoidable when the deadline is tight and the artist fails to read the brief with comprehension).
Slip-ups (and slip-outs) seem to also be inevitable with some of those outfits. Seoni is a wardrobe malfunction waiting to happen. Feiya looks like one in the process of happening with those shoulder straps that never are on the shoulders. I think we know where the Sovereign Glue is being used.
That's mostly just snark though (I actually really like the design for Feiya, although I find Amiri a bit on the silly side "Armor, you're doing it wrong!"). I agree. Paizo is much better in this regard than is normal. Not a chainmail bikini in sight! I'd still like to get rid of boob-plates, those are just silly and bad armor. But the sexy characters aren't the overwhelming norm, and we don't get much of the really absurd stuff that's common in so much fantasy art. I mean they don't have a cover remotely like the infamous cover of Savant and Sorcerer for Exalted for example. Ok, that Pole-Dancer Seoni comic cover is pretty bad though.
That said, a concern about overly cheesecakey art isn't some kind of prudish absurdity. Fantasy artwork tends to be way too over-sexualized in general. It's not a binary switch where everything must be either chailmail bikinis or burkas. I think Paizo strikes the right balance most of the time. But everyone has a different idea of where that balance is.
The second one isn't that bad except the pose and the facial expression but the coloring is good, the spell effect is good if minor(magic missile?), and you can actually see the tattoos's design. Also I don't remember her having purple eyeliner.
The second one is kind of generic with a lightning blast. I don't like the coloring and you can hardly see her face though the rest of her is visible.
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The second one isn't that bad except the pose and the facial expression but the coloring is good, the spell effect is good if minor(magic missile?), and you can actually see the tattoos's design. Also I don't remember her having purple eyeliner.
The second one is kind of generic with a lightning blast. I don't like the coloring and you can hardly see her face though the rest of her is visible.
To be clear: what I consider good in the first and bad in the second is the pose and the facial expression.
I wasn’t speaking about colour or other technical attributes of the drawing but rather the topic of the thread (sexy vs sexualised).
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FWIW, I found this article by Kelly Thompson to be very helpful when thinking about some of the natural arguments offered in reply to the OP (e.g., that such artwork is unproblematic because both men and women are frequently objectified or sexualized in fantasy and comic art).
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For the record, I see both sides to the argument.
In our group, the women have constantly bemoaned that there aren't as many cheesecake poses for characters like Sajan and Seltyiel and they'd like more of those.
On the other hand, "Sex Sells" is an antiquated concept (even if our society is at a point where that is still true.)
I do want to play devil's advocate for a moment, however, and bring a deviantArt image to light. This is a fan redrawing of Seoni in something more reserved, but still says alot about her character. I think it's a good example of how paizo could rebrand their art if they want to. Here you go.
But, there is no denying that for every insulted or uncomfortable customer or player that is turned away from the game because of the art, there is probably at least one who is drawn in by that kind of art. One of my friends absolutely hates the way Seoni, Amiri, and Feiya are drawn, and my wife loves the way they are drawn.
My wife even once played Feiya AS a "sexy enchantress" character in an Iconics Only game I once ran. Taking every charm, compulsion and illusion spell she could to get a one up on male npcs. It is unfortunately a part of the fantasy of the game.
I just feel there's no right way to please everyone at this point.
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Hogwash, have you all seen those CHA 21 krakens? Hubba hubba!Precisely what I was trying to drive at. And you did so eloquently.Sex Appeal and Charisma need not be synonymous, but they can be. It's just as valid to say that a Sorcerer's CHA 20 is from being someone who turns heads wherever they go, even if they're really introverted and shy, as it is to say a very attractive person is CHA 10 because their personality and ability to lead aren't up to par. Because Charisma is a combination of all those traits, not just one.Yeah, but look at Amiri, she only has a 10 Cha and is very attractive. So, really YMMV.Right. Because sex appeal and Charisma are synonymous in this game.
Except they're not.
Except they are, to a degree. From the CRB:
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."
There are plenty of creatures that are high charisma but look ugly to put it mildly.
Charisma is one of the mental attributes, looks are purely physical, so when it says appearance, i wouldn't take that to mean simply the way the character or creature looks, but rather how it carries itself and how it interacts with others when it does.
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I just feel there's no right way to please everyone at this point.
Pretty much this.
This thread topic, like Caster/Martial Disparity, Paladin/Alignment, and other "badwrongfun" threads, are highly sensitive to numerous players, not unlike political or religion discussions in the real world. When arguments are so diametrically opposed that they are mutually exclusive, the ideal to please everyone just cannot exist without either side completely giving in to the other. It's like expecting a Paladin to adventure with a well-known necromancer and homicidal psychopath and be okay with it. (Barring extreme circumstances, but none are present here, so a non-sequitur at that point.)
There is practically zero compromise when it comes to these sorts of discussions, and I honestly don't understand the point of bringing these sorts of complaints up when they effectively accomplish nothing more than creating strife amongst people for no particular reason, even if arguments are logical and well-reasoned.
That's the joke dude. Unless you think I was actually being serious by saying a giant squid (or Great Cthulhu or a Shoggoth) was physically attractive. I mean seriously, I'm not from Japan you know.
I wasn't adressing you directly, i just wanted to add this to the conversation overall.
Generally I think it wasn't a good idea from the devs to mention appearance under charisma at all.
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Since the subject came up, of whose choice is it, what the iconics wear?
Paizo, or the artist?
Wayne Reynolds certainly doesn't have any double standards on the issue of nudity being equal-ops, nor shy away from it when asked by the client.
I tried looking for his work on Slaine, but all the searches default to the work of Bisley, Langley, Fabry, and Power. But they certainly gave you your fill of half-naked blokes.
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My understanding that is WAR is given a fairly brief description (maybe like 4 to 5 lines) and takes it from there.
WAR plays Pathfinder and is familiar with Golarion (IIRC, the iconic bloodrager is actually WAR's Curse of the Crimson Throne character), so I believe the orders nowadays will actually describe stuff in setting terms.
But I believe WAR has enormous leeway in designing iconics (the backstories aren't written until Paizo gets the art back from him) and in his other artwork.
So I believe the answer to Snorter's question is that WAR decides what the iconics are wearing, based on the short description he gets of class, ethnicity and region.
You can read WAR's thread for more details.
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I think the problem is not what a character wears but how it is shown.
One of the first example that comes to mind is Powergirl drawn by Amanda Connor and Greg Land for example. Same Outfit but with Land you can clearly see where he gets his "insperation".
So a character in shorts or a miniskirt is only a problem if an artist is doing only "sexy" poses or it has less fabric than a tanga.