|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been working on this thing on and off roughly since the ACG came out. I wanted to wait to share it until I'd finished a few more classes, but with P2E coming out soon I thought that an unfinished guide is better than a complete but obsolete one - might as well let people get some use out of what I have so far.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
Re: Magus // Monk. With unchained scaled fist monk and eldritch scion you've maybe got something going. Cha synergy of course, and from levels 1-7 spell combat isn't something you'll be using all the time anyway as an eldritch scion. Unchained monk gives you bonus feats, full BAB and flurry, magus gives you buffs or multi-touch spells like frostbite, and bladed dash/spell combat for more than one attack when closing.
For other uses of monk there's two other ways of being non-lawful. Aasimar with the enlightened warrior race trait (a trait, not an alternate racial trait) have been around for a while, and there's now another monk archetype menhir guardian.
|
|
Hm. I could see an Unchained Scaled Fist // Eldritch Scion being workable. Probably still only yellow, though. You've got a lot of abilities on both sides using your swift actions. Eldritch Archer//Zen Archer has some weapon synergy, so might also do OK if you've got a generous stat allotment - you'd want a very high Wis and everything except Cha to be at least 12-14.
Made a note of Enlightened Warrior and the Menhir Guardian (plus Martial Artist) in the general description for the monk.
Wonder if you could do anything interesting with Menhir Guardian's different weapon list. Flurry with slings?
You'd need the halfling warslinger ability to reduce the reload time of a sling in order to use flurry. Or just use daggers, darts, shortspears or spears with quick draw (spears would need two-handed thrower as well). I think the zen archer or far strike monk are likely to be better with ranged flurry attacks though.
Just a thought, but a sylvan trickster rogue gestalted with a witch that loses most/all hexes could be interesting.
Re: Magus // Monk. With unchained scaled fist monk and eldritch scion you've maybe got something going. Cha synergy of course, and from levels 1-7 spell combat isn't something you'll be using all the time anyway as an eldritch scion. Unchained monk gives you bonus feats, full BAB and flurry, magus gives you buffs or multi-touch spells like frostbite, and bladed dash/spell combat for more than one attack when closing.
For other uses of monk there's two other ways of being non-lawful. Aasimar with the enlightened warrior race trait (a trait, not an alternate racial trait) have been around for a while, and there's now another monk archetype menhir guardian.
Indeed. Throw in 2 levels of paladin and hello charisma to everything. My GM refused to let me play this aasimar build with claws and IUS (I believe he had 3 or 4 attacks per round), because he was over powered. So sad, cause I really liked the character I build around him.
|
|
You'd need the halfling warslinger ability to reduce the reload time of a sling in order to use flurry. Or just use daggers, darts, shortspears or spears with quick draw (spears would need two-handed thrower as well). I think the zen archer or far strike monk are likely to be better with ranged flurry attacks though.
Yes, warslinger would be required (or possibly Juggle Load if you wanted a different race badly enough to spend two feats on it). I doubt it would out-damage Zen Archer, but I was wondering whether any of the recent sling-specific abilities would provide a niche for a gestalt that included a "sling flurry" mechanic. Maybe an Opportunist Fighter with Slipslinger Bombardment and a sling staff (which can be used with any abilities requiring a "sling" if you have Slipslinger Style) for a bit of extra damage/range?
I will keep svylvan trickster//low-hex witch in mind when I go flesh out the witch (it's next on my list).
@Yomabo - That sounds like a fun build but not particularly powerful by gestalt standards. You say you never got to actually try it in play?
@deuxhero - I had not heard of that method, but it makes a lot of sense. Re-wrote that section. Would you also keep track of feat qualifications on each side separately?
I think the opportunist fighter is supposed to be for ratfolk; it doesn't mention a restriction but AoN quotes 'The ratfolk enforcers who protect Goka’s infamous Deepmarket' as their source.
More often than not unarchetyped fighter is the best anyway since the Melee Tactics Toolbox. Finding a way to get all good physical attributes, wis and int could be a problem too. A halfling menhir guardian druid // fighter could get slipslinger bombardment by 5th level, or 7th assuming you want point-blank shot & precise shot first; opportunist fighter would make that 7th or 10th respectively due to giving up some of the bonus feats and wants int rather more than the straight fighter does.
|
|
Unless there is an explicit restriction I read that kind of flavour text as referring to a common, well-known, or originating example of the archetype. "The ratfolk enforcers who protect Goka’s infamous Deepmarket" may be the most notable opportunist fighters, but that doesn't mean they are the only ones. I could also easily imagine a halfling hanging out with ratfolk.
You're right about the archetype's tradeoffs, though. Maybe a 1-level dip in alchemist on either side? Since you get Throw Anything it doesn't slow down qualification for Slipslinger Bombardment, and the Mutagen alone is probably worth delaying other class features a level. Plus 1st level extracts and maybe an extra point damage on bombardment if you can manage an 11-12 Int, and a die of Sneak Attack if taking Vivisectionist.
...I like slings.
|
|
I have essentially two concerns with Oracle//Unchained Rogue. The first is heavy reliance on sneak attack for damage. The second is low accuracy - it doesn't matter how many d6s you're adding to damage if you can't reliably hit. For the unchained rogue, these issues are related, since your best accuracy boost (Debilitating Injury -
Bewildered) relies on you first hitting with a sneak attack.
I've adjusted rating to "green if you can consistently sneak attack" and given some suggestions regarding how to do so.
What option gives Kitsune a Greater Invisibility SLA? Magical Tail only grants Invisibility (and then only after a 4-feat investment). Or are you talking about the Wind Mystery's Invisibility talent?
I also notice the Flame Spirit gives you an ability to see through smoke and fog, which could also be helpful in engineering concealment.
Arcane Duelist Bard/Mind Sword Paladin is something I have been really wanting to try if a gestalt campaign ever comes my way.
Tetori Monk/Kraken Caller Druid is a combination that came up in an earlier thread of mine.
Toxophilite Ranger/Spellbreaker Inquisitor (Spellkiller Inquisition) would be so scary with a bow.
I love gestalt for the depth of character you can develop.
|
|
I think your math is wrong; d4+10+8d6 has an average damage of 40.5 (with a critical of 53, since most of the damage doesn't multiply on crits). Which means an expected damage of a little over 162 per round - if all four attacks hit. A CR 12 monster is expected to have an AC of 27, which means that your main attacks only hit half the time, and your secondary attacks hit less often, for an actual expected damage of only 70 per round (including crits threatened on 19-20), compared to a CR 12 creature's 160 hit points. Taking a little over two rounds of full attacks to finish off an equal-CR opponent is respectable for a standard character but hardly impressive by gestalt standards.
If you'd prefer a more concrete comparison, I am currently playing an 8th level Unchained Monk//Alchemist. This is hardly an optimal character, and in particular is quite MAD. My typical attack routine is +17/+17/+17/+12. This assumes only use of my mutagen and a heroism extract, both long-duration buffs that I have multiple daily uses of, and the use of a ki point (I have 8 ki points, or one per level, like your rounds of invisibility). My only offensive item at the moment is a Belt of Str +2. My accuracy already beats yours, 4 levels lower. And I'm not a primary damage dealer. I'm a combat maneuver specialist designed to keep enemies in a prone, flanked position between me and our actual damage powerhouse, a Samurai//Rogue.
Let's advance that character to 12th level. Assume the only additional offensive purchase that I make is a +1 Shocking Flaming Amulet of Mighty Fists (same cost as your two +3 daggers). Add BAB, the unarmed strike die increase, the extra flurry attack, and improve the mutagen to Greater Mutagen, but do not add any other temporary buffs or stat increases.
My attack routine without spending ki is +23/+23/+23/+18/+13. My damage is 2d6+9 + d6 (fire) + d6 (electricity) + 6d6 (sneak attack from vivisectionist), average damage 44. And because of the rest of my build, there's a good chance I'm adding an extra effective +8 to attack because I'm hitting something that is prone and sitting in between me and my Outflank partner. If I'm not flanking, I can chug an extract of Greater Invisibility (at level 12, I can make up to 3 per day). I get more attacks, much better accuracy, slightly better damage.
And again, this is me low-balling the 12th level damage output of a MAD build designed primarily as a battlefield controller and support character.
Seeing through flame or smoke and wanting sneak attack is great with an eversmoking bottle.
|
|
Yeah, which is why I think that Spirit Guide with Flame Spirit is not so much about the free Flaming weapons, its about the 3rd level Hex ability, which can give you Gaze of Flames. (Gaze of Flames is also available from the Flame Mystery, but if you're willing to plan your mystery around getting you consistent sneak attack I personally would pick Lunar for a pet to flank with).
Fleshing out witches. Invoker witch gestalted with another character class that boosts spells too or which can debuff the enemy in a way friendly to the action economy could be something special. Mesmerist for example for debuffs, or occultist for passive buffs.
White haired witch with so many things, but especially a grappler or tripper with full BAB and no urge to wear heavy armor.
Hexes, hex strike & long term spells, gestalted with a class which provides solid defense (even via heavy armor) could be another way to go. Esoteric magus, fighter, steelblood aberrant or shapechanger bloodrager, kinetic knight kineticist... the list goes on.
|
I've been working on this thing on and off roughly since the ACG came out. I wanted to wait to share it until I'd finished a few more classes, but with P2E coming out soon I thought that an unfinished guide is better than a complete but obsolete one - might as well let people get some use out of what I have so far.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
You should definitely consider adding Unchained Rogue(15) // Unchained Monk (scaled fist)(15-20), then a splash of Drill Sergent Fighter(2) // Bloodrager (kyton)(1) // and Insinuator Antipaladin(2).
The synergy is VERY high between them. Imagine being able to Crit on a 15-20 with a 1H weapon, use all of your abilities through that weapon, power attack and all, automatically flanking for a +7 with every strike, getting all of your sneak attacks, double debilitate, dispelling strike, halting their AoO ability, and SA damage with every attack. Then follow that up with sickening, staggering, healing(your char), with every crit, wild flanking with yourself and only hitting yourself on a crit(at the worst), outflanking with yourself and getting up to your AoOs in extra attacks, and having one solid use of Smite(any) on hand per day. Bloodrage to make it a little stronger. Did I mention none of those provide a save? There's also the option of Conductive+Domain with maybe some Cleric levels squeezed in there in place of other worthless ones. Anatomical Savant is also a worthy investment though. Anything immune to flanking would cause problems. Obviously no spells here though, which stinks, but for a pure marshal build, it's quite outstanding to play. Echolocation is a great spell to have scrolls of or have active for cheap.
Thanks a lot for your guide btw. I'm glad to see something like this out there. I shared it with 11 other fellas in a level 20 mythic gestalt game so they could all get really fun and badass ideas if they wanted something new.
Party of four:
Half Orc, Hexenhammer Inquisitor/Witchguard Ranger (Archery) with all the Rapid Shot/Manyshot/Clustered Shots stuff.
Half Orc, Scarred Witch Doctor/Zen Archer Monk (Kung Fu Genius feat @ 1) with all the Precise Shot/Snap Shot stuff.
Human, Arcane Duelist Bard/Mind Sword Paladin
Human or Half Elf, Buckler Duelist Fighter/Flamewarden Ranger (Sword and Shield)
A person with 9th level witch spells and hexes, and a person with 4/6 level witch/ranger/Inquisitor spells and hexes, both are full on archers as well.
A full arcane strike longspear banner of ancient kings bard, who is also a mind sword paladin for all the buffs ever.
A Rondelero Duelist with the capacity of a sword and shield ranger and all the fire based druid spells including a breathe of life variant.
If it's out of range or immune to hexes, shoot it with lots of arrows, make it into its own voodoo doll including all the needles ever.
The buckler Duelist gets all buffed up, goes in strong with a Falcata and Shield enhanced by his own fire magic.
Bard/Paladin buffs the party, provides both reach melee support and/Or crowd control, as well as protecting the archers/witches.
Everyone can heal. Everyone can also put it down without magics. If you want to add another member, make him a Siegebreaker Fighter/Stygian Slayer (Sword and Shield) with an offhand tower shield and a heavy shield for striking/bashing. Oh the joy of gestalt metagaming.
I'm obviously not a huge fan of big magic, though.
|
|
Kazumetsa Raijin, glad the guide is useful to you! That sounds like an interesting build, but it might be a bit complicated for the guide, and I'm not clear on where everything is coming from. How are you flanking with yourself? Are you taking the Dimensional Savant line based on abundant step? And which 1-handed weapon are you using that both has the monk property and qualifies for use with Rogue's Finesse (or are you not using Finesse)? Sickened on crit from Kyton bloodline, Dispelling Attack is an advanced rogue talent, and Wild Flanking and Outflank are teamwork feats - where are the rest of the debuffs and flanking bonuses coming from?
VoodistMonk, I'm a big fan of Paladin//Bard and Inquisitor//Ranger, and those archetype combinations look like fun. I also made a note of the Spellbreaker/Spellkiller Inquisitor pairing with ranger or other archery classes. Personally I do like magic, so I gravitate towards martials gestalted with partial or divine casters.
Fleshing out witches. Invoker witch gestalted with another character class that boosts spells too or which can debuff the enemy in a way friendly to the action economy could be something special. Mesmerist for example for debuffs, or occultist for passive buffs.
White haired witch with so many things, but especially a grappler or tripper with full BAB and no urge to wear heavy armor.
Hexes, hex strike & long term spells, gestalted with a class which provides solid defense (even via heavy armor) could be another way to go. Esoteric magus, fighter, steelblood aberrant or shapechanger bloodrager, kinetic knight kineticist... the list goes on.
White haired witch definitely has lots of gestalt potential.
Invoker looks flexible - you get to switch between lowering DR/SR, increasing hex and patron spell DCs, spell or natural attack damage, spell duration (in rounds), and attack rolls. I think it has a nice application for builds with a split casting/fighting focus, like witch with kensai magus or inspired blade swashbuckler. Any particular reason you think it works better than a standard witch with other classes that buff spellcasting or debuff saves?
Hex Strike only works with UAS, or monk or natural weapons if you're springing for Ascetic Style/Feral Combat Training, so that wouldn't work well with the kineticist.
Seducer's also notable for Cha synergy: paladin, Scaled Fist Monk with Hex strike, maybe better for the mesmerist than invoker?
I do love the Spellbreaker/Spellkiller Inquisitor and the Toxophilite/Skirmisher Ranger oh so much...
The two hex-archer half orcs in my example are supposed to be partners, with Tight Bond traits and Soul Mate feats. There's a reason they have those particular archetypes and not more optimized min/max stuffs.
I love the story you can build in gestalt.
White haired witch definitely has lots of gestalt potential.
Invoker looks flexible - you get to switch between lowering DR/SR, increasing hex and patron spell DCs, spell or natural attack damage, spell duration (in rounds), and attack rolls. I think it has a nice application for builds with a split casting/fighting focus, like witch with kensai magus or inspired blade swashbuckler. Any particular reason you think it works better than a standard witch with other classes that buff spellcasting or debuff saves?
Hex Strike only works with UAS, or monk or natural weapons if you're springing for Ascetic Style/Feral Combat Training, so that wouldn't work well with the kineticist.
Seducer's also notable for Cha synergy: paladin, Scaled Fist Monk with Hex strike, maybe better for the mesmerist than invoker?
The base witch can do their own debuffing but it takes standard actions in combat. Setting up a one-two punch or worse a one-two-three punch over 2-3 rounds each time really limits how many targets you can effect with your marvellous combo. An invoker can get things going faster: the first target in 2 rounds (without needing to be within 30' the first round), 1 per round thereafter. A seducer is an option to reduce MAD as you say, but I'm quite partial to having a character with some intelligence, and they're no faster than the base witch at getting things done.
You're right that the kinetic knight wasn't a good option there, I didn't think that through.
Edit: looking thru the archetypes, I'm reminded of the cartomancer. Touch spells at range. Not usually a big deal because reach spell is a thing and witches have poor BAB and no bonus feats, but couple it with a magus or some full BAB character and you can get decent damage on the cards as well as more accuracy.
Have a look at the fun stuff you can get up to with a ninja/sorcerer. :3
|
|
Kazumetsa Raijin, glad the guide is useful to you! That sounds like an interesting build, but it might be a bit complicated for the guide, and I'm not clear on where everything is coming from. How are you flanking with yourself? Are you taking the Dimensional Savant line based on abundant step? And which 1-handed weapon are you using that both has the monk property and qualifies for use with Rogue's Finesse (or are you not using Finesse)? Sickened on crit from Kyton bloodline, Dispelling Attack is an advanced rogue talent, and Wild Flanking and Outflank are teamwork feats - where are the rest of the debuffs and flanking bonuses coming from?
I'm very happy to answer your questions!
It very well probably may be too complicated, but I'm happy to share anyways.
Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish/Savant is needed, yes. That's where the "Flanking with yourself" comes from. This is based off of Abundant Step. Outflank and Wild Flanking(from the Drill Sergent Fighter levels for those sweet sweet bonus feats) work stupid good with it too.
Personally I prefer and recommend a one-size-bigger-than-you Waveblade, with an Effortless Lace applied to it. This qualifies it as a One Hand when swinging it since it's oversized, giving you the Monk quality, 18-20x2 crit range, and Piercing or Slashing damage. You get the bonus PA damage from it too.
Sadly Rogue's Finesse kind of goes to waste. It's a bummer :T
So if you take the bonus feat(because any monk can) Hamatulatsu, and you have the Kyton blooded ability Painful Strike; They both basically activate at the same time, so choose Kyton to activate first, then Hamatulatsu -> Sicken then Stagger in that order. No saves from either. Which means any Crit will frequently occur and trigger Medusa's Wrath too. Super good stuff.
The Unchained Rogue portion is GREAT. Double Debilitate, Shield of Blades, and Dispelling Attack are a must IMO. Kinda stinks you have to waste two talents on the way, on Minor/Major magic, but the end result is pretty convenient.
SO, the rest of those bonuses and things I mentioned; The Extra attack/dam/con/init comes from Bloodrage + Furious enchant + Pitfall enchant. Flanking at +7 comes from Flank + Outflank + Menacing enchant + Militia Trait. The Extra Natural Armor and Fort save, then healing for 20 on Crits from worshipping Minderhal and taking the Deific Obedience (exalted) and Diverse Obedience (sentinel). He's an LE deity. The SLow Reactions Rogue Talent stops your opponent from taking AoOs.
Here's an old but good gestalt version character sheet for an example; https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1517190
it's slightly different from what I was talking about as the GM gave us additional Feats if I remember correctly.... so just pretend Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang, Martial Focus, and Weapon Style Mastery don't exist on the sheet. Also ignore the Race and Point buy. Either way the sheet should give you a general idea of Class Features and standard Feats, then the action economy in the Abilities section.
Archetypes keep confusing issues. Consider the bard // gunslinger. Buffs and shooting, so far so good but not amazing. Then make the bard a juggler and see them with a pair of pistols for close up and a musket for longer range work at the ready... and still a free hand to reload with.
Or a dervish dancer bard // kineticist. Double inspire courage bonuses can help with the accuracy of the kinetic blast a lot.
BTW, you mentioned under cavalier // monk that mounted skirmisher works on a charge - it doesn't. It lets you double move and full attack, or even run and full attack, but not charge and full attack.
More on archetypes. Druids have a ridiculous number of archetypes, but one in particular worth noting is the green scourge. Flame blade with extra features is great for a rogue, shillelagh works well with anything that gets prereq-free TWF feats or flurry with a quarterstaff. Slayer, ranger, both monk classes, clerics or warpriests using crusader's flurry, maybe int-based classes using artul dodge - the staff magus archetype of magus especially.
Animal shaman druids work well with classes which boost summoning.
The supernaturalist druid loses armor proficiency (easily solved in gestalt) and wild shape for a wide variety of bonuses. It too works well with classes which boost summoning, or which like natural attacks, possibly with classes which don't want to wear armor anyway. Maybe a preservationist alchemist or an abyssal bloodline sorcerer?
There's a surprising number of druid spells which can benefit from a spellslinger wizard's arcane gun.
Or herald caller cleric // supernaturalist druid.
I really like the idea of picking a race with two classes that provide race specific archetypes. Tengu Swordmaster Rogues and Tengubushi Fighters, Tengu also have Oracles and Magus archetypes, I believe. There are quite a few good racial gestalt options with lots of flavor.
Picking a deity with two classes that provide that deity's archetypes is another way to add thematic depth to gestalt characters.
I think you're vastly underrating the full martial // full arcane caster combination. ASF can be lived with, and otherwise it's every bit as good as the full martial // full divine caster combination, which you tend to rate highly. Conjuration (Teleportion) Wizard with Dimensional Agility in particular can be an incredible nuisance when mixed with a reach fighter, and there are a few other school powers that are well-suited to a more martial bent that work well.
Also you seem to be inconsistent with regards to the Mad Magic feat; some options appear to be rated as if it doesn't exist, other explicitly mention it. Bottom line: mixing rage and casting just costs you a feat these days; not a serious impediment.
Gunslinger//Magus has the Eldritch Archer archeytpe to make it work. In fact, the Eldritch Archer synergizes so well with firearms that it's viable to pick up exotic weapon proficiency and quick clear to use them on a traditional single-class non-gestalt character.
Bard//Gunslinger deserves mention for the Juggler archetype, which gives a way to dual wield firearms while also still being able to cast spells. There are so few ways to pull that off cleanly (even in gestalt) that it's definitely worth mentioning a combo that does it right out of the box.
With regards to Gunslinger // Spellslinger, I would disagree with you regarding opposing evocation. Wizards are not good at evocation without investing literally all your feats into it, but Gunslinging is also extremely feat intensive so there's no way you can afford to do both effectively even with gestalt. As a result, Spellslingers should choose to either focus on the Arcane Gun class feature or the Mage Bullets class feature to the exclusion of the other. If you're doing Gunslinger // Spellslinger, then the answer is very clearly to go with Mage Bullets, and that means you should drop evocation without a second thought. Now, this doesn't mean a Gunslinger gestalt can't do blasting, but if you want to do that you should go with Gunslinger // Magus or Gunslinger // Sorcerer, and then pick up Spellslinger as a one-level multiclass dip. If you're going straight Gunslinger // Spellslinger, don't bother with blasting.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am going to try to keep up with comments but please bear with me - there's a reason that I'm not finished with this despite working on it for 3.5 years.
Archetypes have been extremely frustrating for me during this project. There are a lot of them, more are constantly being released, and they include both seemingly small changes that happen to synergize really well with specific gestalts as well as big changes that completely overhaul base assumptions about how the class works. I've tried to go back and update entries when new things come out, but some things like Eldritch Archer seem to have been missed or applied inconsistently. I appreciate you folks pointing these out.
Updated Bard//Gunslinger with Juggler and Gunslinger//Magus with Eldritch Archer. Updated Druid with Supernaturalist and specifically recommended Supernaturalist//Herald Caller, Monster Tactician Inquisitor, and possibly Abyssal Bloodline Sorcerer.
VoodistMonk, I may need to add a few general tips for selecting on flavourful combinations in the beginning of the guide - I like the idea of pairing racial or deity-based archetypes.
avr, added a note about Green Scourge and Flame Blade under Druid//Rogue, though I'm hesitant to make it the main combat strategy given that the spell is short duration and can be negated by SR or energy resistance (albeit with the frost/shocking options giving you a bit more versatility on energy type that once you hit level 5).
Also hesitant to recommend investing too heavily in Shillelagh as a strategy given that it's, again, short duration, and can't enhance a magic quarterstaff. The increased enhancement for Green Scourge only applies on one end, so it's better for Flurry than TWF builds. I think it might still work OK for Staff Magus since you would generally use the thing one-handed instead of as a double weapon and it looks like Arcane Pool would stack fine as long as you cast Shillelagh before making it magic through Arcane Pool. But I don't think you could use Staff Weapon and Shillelagh on the same staff. Made a few notes in the Druid//Monk and Druid//Magus sections.
BTW, you mentioned under cavalier // monk that mounted skirmisher works on a charge - it doesn't. It lets you double move and full attack, or even run and full attack, but not charge and full attack.
*Sighs.* Last time I checked in on the issue, the consensus was that it did work, but is seems there were some clarifications to mounted charge since then. Fixed, thanks.
Dasrak, you are probably right about the Gunslinger//Spellslinger, but I would like to spend a bit more time reviewing the archetype before recommending focusing exclusively on on Mage Bullets. For now I have removed the specific build comments for the combination (including recommendations on opposition schools) and instead just pointed out that the archetype exists.
Also you seem to be inconsistent with regards to the Mad Magic feat; some options appear to be rated as if it doesn't exist, other explicitly mention it. Bottom line: mixing rage and casting just costs you a feat these days; not a serious impediment.
I did point out Mad Magic in the general notes, but I don't think it makes a big difference for the barbarian in most cases because it is more limited than for the bloodrager (costs two rage powers on top of the feat and is only usable once per rage). For example, it's not very useful for the Barbarian//Magus since you probably want to use spell combat more than once per fight. I've clarified this take on Mad Magic for the Barbarian in the general class notes, and replaced a few vestigal instances of "can't cast while raging" in the bloodrager descriptions with "costly/inconvenient to cast while raging." Mad Magic is baked into the better ratings for several caster//bloodrager gestalts compared to the caster//barbarian versions, though I don't always mention it in the specific descriptions because it's in the general notes and I'm trying not to repeat myself. In fact, in places where Mad Magic is referenced in the specific notes for bloodrager it's probably left over from before I was writing general notes with all the stuff I was tired of repeating.
I think you're vastly underrating the full martial // full arcane caster combination. ASF can be lived with, and otherwise it's every bit as good as the full martial // full divine caster combination, which you tend to rate highly. Conjuration (Teleportion) Wizard with Dimensional Agility in particular can be an incredible nuisance when mixed with a reach fighter, and there are a few other school powers that are well-suited to a more martial bent that work well.
Perhaps, but it's not just ASF. Full divine classes tend to have more class features that support weapons combat than full arcane classes, while mages tend to have one or two nice tricks. But I'll give wizard another look-over for martial synergies, and consider softening my warning about those combinations - it may be more accurate to say that the wizard//fighter is easier to build badly (has a lower "floor") rather than it being a bad idea more broadly.
it may be more accurate to say that the wizard//fighter is easier to build badly (has a lower "floor") rather than it being a bad idea more broadly.
I definitely concur with that. It's a very powerful combo, insofar as being a Wizard has a lot of power inherent in it, but it takes system mastery to do effectively since it comes down to using the right spells in an efficient manner to support your build.
Wizard school powers include the odd one which might be useful with a decent attack bonus or some feats. Wood element's splintered spear for example, or universalist's hand of the apprentice. The sword binder wizard archetype really wants better than 1/2 BAB. There's even a school strike feat (like hex strike or revelation strike) which no one ever takes normally because wizards shouldn't be punching people.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Rogue archetypes, Counterfeit Mage and Eldritch Scoundrel stack. Gestalt with an Eldritch Guardian Fighter. Thematically appropriate and turns out quite versatile.
Gestalting two hybrid classes that share the same parent class builds really diverse, but not overpowered characters...
Fighter = Warpriest/Brawler gestalt
Ranger = Slayer/Hunter gestalt
Rogue = Slayer/Ninja gestalt
Barbarian = Skald/Bloodrager gestalt
You get the idea.
But it does make for some really solid characters with all the best of one class, from two sources, and enough of two other classes to be very useful and versatile. Remember that your action economy never improves, just your options.
Only overpowered thing I have is a Stryx Airborne Ambusher/Dervish of Dawn Fighter gestalted with a Quinggong/Zen Archer Monk. I call him, Cupid.
Finding archetypes that stack is always a huge plus.
Good to have some free Gestalting guide stuff out there, for those fortunate enough to get into a gestalt game. ;)
A Hunter/Unchained Rogue gestalt can make for a real melee powerhouse. You don't lose any spell progression or animal companion advancement and get all of the Rogue's talents and Sneak Attack.
I have a Hunter/Unchained Rogue multiclass character and she can outfight most of the party thanks to the flanking/AoO build she and her companion have.
Example gestalt build:
1: Weapon Finesse (Class Feature)
1: Combat Expertise
2: Rogue Talent - Distracting Attack
2: Outflank (Class Feature)
3: Pack Flanking (Bonus)
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Rogue Talent - Weapon Training - Weapon Focus
5: Broken Wing Gambit
6: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Paired Opportunists
6: Precise Strike (Bonus)
7: Evolved Companion (Can give companion an extra attack like Slam or Bite.)
8: Rogue Talent - Ninja Trick - Pressure Points
9: Shake It Off (Bonus)
9: Improved Precise Strike
First off, thank you for making this guide. I don’t see a lot of gestalt games happening personally, but it doesn’t mean they don’t happen. This will help a lot of people.
Secondly, have you considered the Elder Mythos Cultist cleric archetype? It adds a couple of weaknesses (lowered resistance against insanity effects, weakened channel energy), but the fact that your main casting stat is now charisma can help it mach up with a lot more classes.
Reduxist, it is always noteworthy to mention archetypes that convert stat dependency. A charisma based Cleric could probably gestalt well with a CE or CN Anti-Paladin. I have always thought Clerics and Rangers meshed well with the wisdom dependency. The Crusader Cleric and the Infiltrator/Skirmisher Ranger are meant to be together.
That’s the thing Voodooist; I was checking the shaman tab when I noticed that it was missing a cleric/shaman match up. I figured that since the latter had some wisdom dependency for spells and charisma dependency for channel energy / hexes, I thought that’d be an alright match up. But then I realized that elder mythos cultist gives the cleric full charisma dependency and access to a bunch of feats that feed off of wisdom by damaging it.
Furthermore, the dark tapestry spirit has a hex that makes all of your summons have the advanced template. That would be amazing for the herald caller, especially since shamans also have access to summon nature’s ally instead of summon monster.
The rules I have for my upcoming Gestalt Kingsmaker campaign are pretty simple and compliment what has been laid out in this guide.
1. Must be full BAB
2. Must have at least 4th level spells
3. Must have at least two +12 saves
4. Cannot multiclass in any fashion
5. Cannot have more than 10 spell slots per day... 4+4 is fine, 6+4 is fine, but 6+6 or 9+anything are a no-go's
That's about it, though.
Some of the 6+4 combinations are just wonderfully versatile... Warpriest/Ranger, Skald/Bloodrager, Bard/Paladin. So legit.
Thanks for this. One thing I’ve noticed off and on is how few of any class guides cover the possibility of gestalt. I know it’s a fairly rare option, but good to have a guide when I get the chance to play a gestalt game.
Some combos I wanted to mention specifically:
Magus/unRogue: Dex Magus all the way. There’s great INT synergy (all the skills!), you can pick up some extra combat feats with your Rogue tricks, and you get Dex to damage plus sneak attack to stack onto your spell nova. No fiddly worries about casting with the off hand, no feat tax, just pure Dex to damage.
Magus/Warpriest: Yes it’s MAD, yes it has too many things to do with swift actions, but the chance to lay down two spells and full attack is just so powerful. Swiftcast Divine Favor/Power, then use Spell Combat to cast Shocking Grasp *and* full attack, all in one turn? Magnificent. Considering that action economy is one of the major limiters of gestalt and how powerful spellcasting is in general, I think you underrate the combo.
Ninja/Oracle is a bit niche, but can be really powerful. Charisma synergy, 9 levels of divine casting, 8+ skills/level, with the right mystery choice (I like Shadow) you can boost your stealth through the roof and make sneak attacking much easier with spontaneously-cast spells like Invisibility.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Elder Mythos Cultist definitely needs to be added. (Another archetype that came out after I'd “finished” its class... but because I wasn't as personally drawn to it as say the Feyspeaker Druid or Scaled Fist Monk I forgot to update the Cleric with the Cultist.) I added a description of the archetype to the general cleric notes and started to add in some more specific comments to combinations that are affected. (Could do neat things with Bard//Cultist, Aberrant Bloodrager//Cultist, or Antipaladin//Cultist...)
VoodistMonk – I don't think pairing two hybrid classes gives you consistent power levels. For example, Investigator//Slayer is better than Skald//Bloodrager, since you can use Studied Target and Studied Combat together can't benefit from Bloodrage and Raging Song at the same time. The Investigator//Slayer also has an extra good save and more skill points.
It is hard to go too wrong with a gestalt that gets full BAB, at least two good saves, and at least some spells, though I wouldn't really recommend Skald//Bloodrager or something like Paladin//Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (ASF and too many stats).
Heather 540 – Added a quick note, will expand on Hunter//Rogue when I get around to fleshing out specific combinations for Hunter.
Ouachitonian – Noted on Magus//Rogue. Not entirely convinced on Magus//Warpriest (is getting an extra spell in really worth the MAD and getting neither full BAB nor 9th-level spells?) but noted action economy. With medium BAB, I am not sure that Oracle//Ninja's charisma synergy (ki pool) is worth missing out on UnRogue's Debilitating Injury. Really like the shadow mystery for either Ninja or Rogue, though!
Neat. Note for the note: if a companion can be ridden as a mount, flanking will ALWAYS be in effect with the Pack Flanking feat.
Any thoughts on adding prestige classes into the mix?
Any thoughts on adding prestige classes into the mix?
For my gestalt campaign, I allow prestige classes, but both gestalt classes stop, and you resume the exact same two classes with the same archetypes right where they left off after the prestige class levels are over.
At my table I don't allow gestalting prestige classes, although I should encourage it because prestige classes kind of suck.
A lot of prestige classes have skill rank prerequisites, so even with gestalt you cannot gain early access to them.
I thought about allowing whatever class you are taking your Favored Class Bonus in to continue while you enter a prestige class. Only pausing one half of the gestalt for the prestige class, but I figured that might be too obnoxious.
|
|
I am generally not including prestige classes in the guide. The project is big enough as is and I am not familiar enough with prestige classes to give useful insights. I may call out a few prestige classes if they strike me as particularly relevant to a combination (for example progressing from Sorcerer to Dragon Disciple fits nicely if your other class is Full BAB).
Heather 540 - Added Pack Flanking to the Hunter//Rogue description and the general Rogue notes (since Hunters aren't the only build that can use it, they just have an easier time).
"Pairing two full arcane casters is popular among players who want ALL THE MAGIC but since full arcane casters invariably have d6 HD and poor CMD, Fort and Ref saves you end up REALLY FRAGILE. You also don't get as much as you'd think out of the second spell list thanks to action limitations. I highly recommend instead pairing with a partial or divine caster, which will improve your durability while typically also granting you more versatility in your spell list and special features."
I am going to disagree with this, at least partly.
I mostly agree with Weirdo as to the drawbacks of pairing 2 arcane casters.
I am playing in a gestalt 2 player way of the wicked campaign with a friend who is playing a cleric/ fighter.
My character is a Bloodmarked Skinwalker who is a Witch [Ashtifah] on one side and a wizard and psion, later cerebremancer on the other.
The character is very powerful and I want to talk about the upside of such a character.
The 3 base classes are all innately powerful. It is great having all my spells and manifesting running off one stat, int, and it is easier to improve more than one class at once.
There is an immense amount that can be done between as a witch/ wizard/ psion and between the 3 I almost always have the right spell or power available and enough uses to get the job done.
There are also some great things that I never though of before playing the character, like getting double effect from a ring of wizardry and using psychic reconstruction to remake yourself so you have an item creation feat while creating items and then swapping the feat for something useful while adventuring.
I am going to wait and see if anyone reponds on this old thread before writing more.
I would absolutely hope that you can make a character that is both useful and powerful with multiclassing AND gestalt... because sometimes, two complete classes just aren't enough.
I don't allow multiclassing or VMC with gestalt at my table, but I have my own rules for gestalt... I'm sure the rules of gestalt vary quite a bit from table to table.
I can see how multiclassing with gestalt may be necessary for a two person party, though.
Some relatively decent full caster combinations I have found are the Instructor Wizard with the Vanguard Slayer, the Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer with the Snakebite Striker Brawler, Blade Adept Arcanist with the Ankou Shadow Slayer, but I honestly like mixing 4/9 casters with 6/9 casters for the utility and versatility.
WoTW is a difficult adventure path as well.
I can see not allowing gestalt and multiclassing as a valid house rule.
Your caster combinations fit in well with Weirdo's suggestions. Pathfinder is very complicated and there are many ways to build effective characters.
My absolute favorite, the all day everyday MVP, any party any campaign, the Fey-Hearted or Imposter-Wary Human Arcane Duelist Bard gestalt with the Urban Bloodrager (Arcane Bloodline)... you start with Arcane Strike, Blooded Arcane Strike, and Mad Magic...
Inspiring Courage!
Full BAB, all good saves, 6+INT skills, Controlled Bloodrage, and a SCALING magical weapon at level one, WITH Bard spellcasting, yes-please!
Get some Greater Gloves of Arcane Striking, the Banner of Ancient Kings, a little bit of Flagbearer, maybe some Celestial Plate Armor...
So F'ing much Inspiring Courage!!!
PS. Aid Another! Combat Reflexes. Bodyguard. Those beautiful gloves... so much Aid Another!
I had to look up the archetypes, these are not classes I have played.
It does look very effective. Full BaB, a powerful melee combatant with a broad range of spells and other abilities.