2E undermines what drove Pathfinder in the first place.


Prerelease Discussion

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Samy wrote:

I will rather stop gaming entirely than be forced to go back to bleeping elves and dwarves and halflings.

I want my tiefling, I want my changeling, I want my catfolk, I want my ganzi, I want my shabti, I want my android, I want my lashunta, I want my samsaran.

I have a game system with them. Maybe 2e will have them someday -- then I'll take a look at it.

I think that can be part of the problem though. People look at Pathfinder currently and all the options that a group demands people be able to use and simply shrug their shoulders and give up.

They then see that 5e only has 1 PHB required, and at most only the PHB and one additional rulebook allowed and that is FAR more digestible to a new player than needing to get the rules in the CRB, the APG, UC, UM, ACG, and others.

By reducing the buy-in to a new CRB, Paizo automatically makes it easier for a new player buy-in to the game.

Liberty's Edge

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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Samy wrote:
I want my tiefling, I want my changeling, I want my catfolk, I want my ganzi, I want my shabti, I want my android, I want my lashunta, I want my samsaran.

I think that can be part of the problem though. People look at Pathfinder currently and all the options that a group demands people be able to use and simply shrug their shoulders and give up.

They then see that 5e only has 1 PHB required

Sure. But because those people can't learn to ignore excessive options, they have to be taken away from me entirely? If lots of options exist, then one group can always go core-only and another group can go nuts with 20 books. But if only core exists, then the core-only group is catered, but the nuts-group *has no option*.

The situation where lots of options exist allows for live-and-let-live, both groups can play. The situation where core-only exists allows only for the core-only group.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Samy wrote:

I will rather stop gaming entirely than be forced to go back to bleeping elves and dwarves and halflings.

I want my tiefling, I want my changeling, I want my catfolk, I want my ganzi, I want my shabti, I want my android, I want my lashunta, I want my samsaran.

I have a game system with them. Maybe 2e will have them someday -- then I'll take a look at it.

I think that can be part of the problem though. People look at Pathfinder currently and all the options that a group demands people be able to use and simply shrug their shoulders and give up.

They then see that 5e only has 1 PHB required, and at most only the PHB and one additional rulebook allowed and that is FAR more digestible to a new player than needing to get the rules in the CRB, the APG, UC, UM, ACG, and others.

By reducing the buy-in to a new CRB, Paizo automatically makes it easier for a new player buy-in to the game.

I think it is safe to say that the situation where there will be only a single book will be, at most, a temporary condition. Unless we believe that Paizo are moving to a business model where they release dramatically fewer books than they do today. Which is possible, but seems unlikely.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Samy wrote:

I will rather stop gaming entirely than be forced to go back to bleeping elves and dwarves and halflings.

I want my tiefling, I want my changeling, I want my catfolk, I want my ganzi, I want my shabti, I want my android, I want my lashunta, I want my samsaran.

I have a game system with them. Maybe 2e will have them someday -- then I'll take a look at it.

I think that can be part of the problem though. People look at Pathfinder currently and all the options that a group demands people be able to use and simply shrug their shoulders and give up.

They then see that 5e only has 1 PHB required, and at most only the PHB and one additional rulebook allowed and that is FAR more digestible to a new player than needing to get the rules in the CRB, the APG, UC, UM, ACG, and others.

By reducing the buy-in to a new CRB, Paizo automatically makes it easier for a new player buy-in to the game.

I...I don't get it. You only need the CBR, everything else is optional. Overwhelmed by all the books? Stick to the CRB. Nobody DEMANDS to use more than that

Shadow Lodge

Lemartes wrote:
You're not stopping this it has been planned for a long time.

At least since Starfinder, since they have said they were working on 2E at the same time. Might not have been the best idea, but we'll see.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marvelous Meowstic wrote:

So... I can't be the only one baffled by the 2E announcement. The desire for a system similar to 3.5 DnD is what drove Pathfinder's creation and what kept people coming back... why drop all of that now out of the blue?

If we give feedback, we can stop 2E. Surely Paizo will listen and realize this isn't what we, as a community, want.

what makes you think that we as a community don't want it?

I certainly am excited by this announcement

Liberty's Edge

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Marvelous Meowstic wrote:

So... I can't be the only one baffled by the 2E announcement. The desire for a system similar to 3.5 DnD is what drove Pathfinder's creation and what kept people coming back... why drop all of that now out of the blue?

If we give feedback, we can stop 2E. Surely Paizo will listen and realize this isn't what we, as a community, want.

I'm considering coming back for 2E. So it makes sense to me. And 2E is something I want. Perhaps quite a bit. Time will tell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hythlodeus wrote:
I...I don't get it. You only need the CBR, everything else is optional. Overwhelmed by all the books? Stick to the CRB. Nobody DEMANDS to use more than that

This is not entirely about reality. It is in a very real way somewhat about perception. It doesn't matter if you CAN play the game with just the CRB, the existence of that giant shelf of other books makes the new player THINK they might need more. This is not logical, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

A game with a smaller line of books will intrinsically be less intimidating to new players.

Liberty's Edge

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But why should I be penalized *in reality* for someone's imaginary *perceptions*? Why shouldn't *they* get a grip of reality instead so both could play?

That's like saying women should get lower pay because some people *think* they get paid too much.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
There’ll no doubt be calls for PF1 -> PF2 conversion documents too, but I actually think that’ll be less important (from a community happiness perspective).

A PF1 -> PF2 conversion document is exactly what I want. It would allow me to continue using my library of PF1 sources in a PF2 game. Such a document would allow folks to play, say, a kyton-spawn tiefling gunslinger (or whatever) if they want as soon as PF2 comes out, instead of having to wait for whenever the later books come out. Allowing people to play their favorite kinds of characters straight away would help migration.


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Marvelous Meowstic wrote:

So... I can't be the only one baffled by the 2E announcement. The desire for a system similar to 3.5 DnD is what drove Pathfinder's creation and what kept people coming back... why drop all of that now out of the blue?

If we give feedback, we can stop 2E. Surely Paizo will listen and realize this isn't what we, as a community, want.

No....they wont.

This decision is not an "off the cuff" with no thought.
Those of us that feel this is the wrong direction to take the game we love....are just going to have to deal with the fact that times change, and what the new generation want is "tabletop video games".

The absolute best we can hope for...is that the changes are not as dramatic as they appear to be (unlikely)....or that it's easily backwards compatible (again, unlikely).

But on the bright side...they improved the foundation I loved, and there is enough material to work with for many years. So I can both mechanically work with (the system itself).....and have the benefit of a "reality" I love as much as I loved Dragon Lance.

So my day's foreword with Paizo may be drawing to a close....but at least they created something that can take my gaming day's to there conclusion ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, I'm gonna have a lot of material to get through. With the end of 1e APs, starting in fall 2019 I will just have to go back and give a second look at the APs I originally passed on, like Reign of Winter and Wrath of the Righteous being two particular ones that I'm eyeing to grab.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Samy wrote:
But why should I be penalized *in reality* for someone's imaginary *perceptions*? Why shouldn't *they* get a grip of reality instead so both could play?

Ok, this isn't about you getting penalized. This is about Paizo doing what is best for their business. It has a side effect of being bad for you, but that's not the goal.

If Paizo looks at the future of PF1 and says "there will be a time where our lack of new players will mean this game is no longer a viable business", then they need to do something to fix that problem. Let's say they've done the "let's make an intro box" thing, and "let's make a strategy guide" thing, and it hasn't moved the needle. That means you have to find something to pull in those new players.

Fortunately, a great way to be more appealing to new players is to have a less intimidating line of products. It dovetails nicely with the whole "we're running out of obvious new hardcover books to write" thing, and the "3.5 baggage prevents us from making the sort of game we want to make" thing. RPG lines don't last forever. They either stagnate and eventually stop being produced, or they reboot. It's the nature of things.

So yeah, it means you don't get more PF1 stuff. Sorry bout that. But it also means Paizo as an ongoing concern has a better chance of surviving, so I'm all right with that.


Samy wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Samy wrote:
I want my tiefling, I want my changeling, I want my catfolk, I want my ganzi, I want my shabti, I want my android, I want my lashunta, I want my samsaran.

I think that can be part of the problem though. People look at Pathfinder currently and all the options that a group demands people be able to use and simply shrug their shoulders and give up.

They then see that 5e only has 1 PHB required

Sure. But because those people can't learn to ignore excessive options, they have to be taken away from me entirely? If lots of options exist, then one group can always go core-only and another group can go nuts with 20 books. But if only core exists, then the core-only group is catered, but the nuts-group *has no option*.

The situation where lots of options exist allows for live-and-let-live, both groups can play. The situation where core-only exists allows only for the core-only group.

If it were that simple, that would be nice.

A LOT of new players are NOT creating their own games. They are not creating their own groups. They are joining established groups.

Most groups are not core only. This means, right off the bat, they have all those other options to utilize.

Then we have PFS, which is a great recruiting tool. PFS tried to do a Core Only portion, but a majority of the tables were being run, not as Core, but as everything allowed in PFS. For new players, this meant, the entire gambit of books.

Thus, maybe it would be nice if it were that simple, but usually those looking at joining into a PF game would have at least 3 or 4 books (and in many instances, especially with PFS a LOT more) to learn the rules on and from.

That's far more daunting than just learning the 1 PHB for 5e.

This 2e for PF resets this, and makes it so that new players looking to join only see that they need the CRB to play and not half a dozen more splats in the process.

Liberty's Edge

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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Most groups are not core only. This means, right off the bat, they have all those other options to utilize.

Yes, *options*, not *mandates*. They *can* use them if they want to, but they never *have* to.

So there is no problem.


rooneg wrote:
Samy wrote:
But why should I be penalized *in reality* for someone's imaginary *perceptions*? Why shouldn't *they* get a grip of reality instead so both could play?

Ok, this isn't about you getting penalized. This is about Paizo doing what is best for their business. It has a side effect of being bad for you, but that's not the goal.

If Paizo looks at the future of PF1 and says "there will be a time where our lack of new players will mean this game is no longer a viable business", then they need to do something to fix that problem. Let's say they've done the "let's make an intro box" thing, and "let's make a strategy guide" thing, and it hasn't moved the needle. That means you have to find something to pull in those new players.

Fortunately, a great way to be more appealing to new players is to have a less intimidating line of products. It dovetails nicely with the whole "we're running out of obvious new hardcover books to write" thing, and the "3.5 baggage prevents us from making the sort of game we want to make" thing. RPG lines don't last forever. They either stagnate and eventually stop being produced, or they reboot. It's the nature of things.

So yeah, it means you don't get more PF1 stuff. Sorry bout that. But it also means Paizo as an ongoing concern has a better chance of surviving, so I'm all right with that.

Essentially this. We all need to keep in mind "we dont matter". This is a business decision....and those are based on large scale trends. On a personal level it's difficult to deal with, especially when you have built a belief that "you matter" as an individual. But right now they need to do what will keep them competitive in the broader market. And that's always guess work.

Long term, this may work out really well for them....or it may kill them.

That's how business decisions go.

I am however interested in my hobbie......what I do to get away from business....and the real world....for those few hours a month I get the luxury of doing so.

To that end I will gobble up the last few offerings for 1E.....I will houserule the recent things I think are botched, and then go on to keep 1E as my hobby.

I understand why Paizo has gone the direction they have....in fact it seems inevitable....I will look at the playtest...who knows, I may be surprised, and it may not be all that different from what I have been doing for 20 years....but when all is said and done....life is about forming....and dissolving relationships.


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Hythlodeus wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Kain Dragonhand wrote:

Do you play video games?

Would you be happy if we stayed with the Xbox original instead of the Xbox One?
Or the PS2 instead of the PS4?
You probably don't want to see the walls of text I can still generate at the drop of a hat about how Civilization III is an infinitely better game than Civ IV or V.
I still play Civ III once a month until cultural victory. that game was just perfection (or as close to it as Civ goes anyway)

I still pull out Alpha Centauri every once in awhile. I preferred it to any of the Civs.

IIRC, Civ III came out, I was all excited, played a couple games and went back to SMAC.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
GM Nitemare wrote:
Quick someone startup a 3.85 do what PF did to 4E, call it Grognardfinder or something...

I'm just amused by people talking about Old School Pathfinder and Grognards and such.

Pathfinder isn't Old School. Sorry. Nor was 3.0. They're what the grognards in the old school revival were reacting too when they went back and made clones of OD&D and AD&D and Basic.


rooneg wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:
I...I don't get it. You only need the CBR, everything else is optional. Overwhelmed by all the books? Stick to the CRB. Nobody DEMANDS to use more than that

This is not entirely about reality. It is in a very real way somewhat about perception. It doesn't matter if you CAN play the game with just the CRB, the existence of that giant shelf of other books makes the new player THINK they might need more. This is not logical, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

A game with a smaller line of books will intrinsically be less intimidating to new players.

This is true too. There are times when we see that invariable question from someone interested in Pathfinder wondering which book they need. They see the Core Rule book, the Advanced Players Guide and the Advanced Class Guide...figuring they are a player they get the Player's guide and are...confused.

The sheer bulk of books can be confusing to those new to the hobby or to the game, and can also be intimidating to those wanting to learn how to play (but at least it doesn't have 3 PHB's all called PHB confusing the player which they should get and choosing PHB 3 because that must be the most updated version to teach the to play...like what 4e did...).


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thejeff wrote:
GM Nitemare wrote:
Quick someone startup a 3.85 do what PF did to 4E, call it Grognardfinder or something...

I'm just amused by people talking about Old School Pathfinder and Grognards and such.

Pathfinder isn't Old School. Sorry. Nor was 3.0. They're what the grognards in the old school revival were reacting too when they went back and made clones of OD&D and AD&D and Basic.

Yep. Posting this again for posterity.

"Critical hits? Level-based ability increases!? Tell me, why do you want to dynamite twenty-five years of tradition? Why do you want your character to achieve instant godhood?"


At this point no matter how much feedback is given to stop the development of 2E it simply will not. If it's the first thing one sees when going to the companies website it's will not be stopped.

At this point I'm not even sure if their will be another company who will pick up the rights to continue PF1. Either they keep the core and previously printed and build from there which I'm not sure they can. Or they do their own version of PF core then again it comes to having three core books that are fairly similar and will have some in the hobby questioning the cost of the book or even if it is worth purchasing. 3.5 to PF1 to 3PP PF. How many times can one set of rules be recycled.

Another issue is that the company that does continue PF1 may have less resources, time and willingness to devote on publishing new material. As I see it almost everyone will probably be jumping at the chance to publish more for PF2 even if it's not as popular instead of PF1. If one is used to getting a certain number of releases for Pathfinder they might be disappointed.

Like 2E D&D maybe it's time to call it a day on PF1. We have ten years of published material with more to arrive for some time yet. Their are endless years of gaming. As I said above I'm just not seeing someone rush out to publish PF1 especially with 5E being popular and fixing many issues. Even Green Ronin who I thought would be a someone who was going to release more for Pathfinder re-released their Book of the Righteous for 5E and only for that version so far. Maybe I'm totally wrong and the opposite will happen.

Except I don't think I am as unlike 4E which many disliked 5E is popular and their seems anecdotally to me less unhappy fans like they were for 4E to draw upon.


The Thing From Another World wrote:

At this point no matter how much feedback is given to stop the development of 2E it simply will not. If it's the first thing one sees when going to the companies website it's will not be stopped.

At this point I'm not even sure if their will be another company who will pick up the rights to continue PF1. Either they keep the core and previously printed and build from there which I'm not sure they can. Or they do their own version of PF core then again it comes to having three core books that are fairly similar and will have some in the hobby questioning the cost of the book or even if it is worth purchasing. 3.5 to PF1 to 3PP PF. How many times can one set of rules be recycled.

Another issue is that the company that does continue PF1 may have less resources, time and willingness to devote on publishing new material. As I see it almost everyone will probably be jumping at the chance to publish more for PF2 even if it's not as popular instead of PF1. If one is used to getting a certain number of releases for Pathfinder they might be disappointed.

Like 2E D&D maybe it's time to call it a day on PF1. We have ten years of published material with more to arrive for some time yet. Their are endless years of gaming. As I said above I'm just not seeing someone rush out to publish PF1 especially with 5E being popular and fixing many issues. Even Green Ronin who I thought would be a someone who was going to release more for Pathfinder re-released their Book of the Righteous for 5E and only for that version so far. Maybe I'm totally wrong and the opposite will happen.

Except I don't think I am as unlike 4E which many disliked 5E is popular and their seems anecdotally to me less unhappy fans like they were for 4E to draw upon.

As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it. It's in the smaller paperback form, but they will be publishing it.

IN addition, from what I can understand, 3rdPP can still publish for the P1E rules for their own worlds and creations under the various licenses.

Just because they are making PF2e, it does not sound like it is necessarily the death of P1E


GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.

yeah, publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead, that's just unnecessary cruelty and very cynical

Liberty's Edge

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Oh come on. Having them in print is better than having them out of print. It's nice of them to extend at least that much to us.


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Hythlodeus wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.
yeah, publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead, that's just unnecessary cruelty and very cynical

While I appreciate your point -- support matters -- I think "unnecessary cruelty" and "very cynical" are a bit much, don't you think?


idk, it looks dangerously close to a comatose patient on a life supporting machine. you know he is in pain, you know he wants to die, but you're not pulling the plug for the only reason that you can still make easy money as long as he lives.
at least, that's how their FAQ answer reads

Liberty's Edge

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Maybe *you* want to die, but I intend to keep on playing 1e and having fun with it, and I appreciate it a lot that they're making it easier for me to do so!

Liberty's Edge

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Dramatics aside, Pathfinder is not a person, it can't feel pain. It's clear from the (over)reactions of many people on these boards that there will still be a market for PF1 material even once PF2 is out, so why would Paizo deny those people the ability to buy the material? If they decided not to keep selling PF1 stuff, people would instead be complaining that they're blocking people from playing the old edition just so they could force them to play the new one.


Samy wrote:
Maybe *you* want to die, but I intend to keep on playing 1e and having fun with it, and I appreciate it a lot that they're making it easier for me to do so!

I have no intentions to die at the moment, thank you very much


JRutterbush wrote:
Dramatics aside, Pathfinder is not a person, it can't feel pain.

Allegories, google it


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Hythlodeus wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.
yeah, publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead, that's just unnecessary cruelty and very cynical

This is the strangest argument I've seen on this topic.

Would it really be better if people couldn't keep buying the existing material if they wanted to continue playing PF1?


Serious question: why is dumbing down compared to videogames? Is it just a common spite term in the tabletop community, or does nobody know how complex video games can be? I'm the kind of player that tries to not bumble through, so you're welcome to discuss whether 15 Def IV lonely stakataka is better than using beast boost for the intended stat. 0 speed is of course a necessity. I wonder how many people can figure out which game I'm even talking about


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
You're not stopping this it has been planned for a long time.
At least since Starfinder, since they have said they were working on 2E at the same time. Might not have been the best idea, but we'll see.

Lot of us thought Unchained was an early draft. Seeing the 3 action economy, it might be true


By the way, if PF1 is 3.75, PF2 should be 3.875, not 3.8 or 3.85~

Samy wrote:
2e won't be and can't be stopped. The most that can be done is make it a commercial failure, and that would lead to Paizo closing doors and losing access to the PDFs we own so far. So...life sucks.

The PDFs are DRM-free, so you can back them up as much as you like. As long as you have your backups and a PDF reader, you'll be able to view your data.

(backing up could even take the form of simply printing them out)


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JRutterbush wrote:
It's clear from the (over)reactions ...

Really. Paizo could get revenue just from charging us to see all the overreaction in the forums.

Most TV melodramas are not so over the top.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
The Thing From Another World wrote:

At this point no matter how much feedback is given to stop the development of 2E it simply will not. If it's the first thing one sees when going to the companies website it's will not be stopped.

At this point I'm not even sure if their will be another company who will pick up the rights to continue PF1. Either they keep the core and previously printed and build from there which I'm not sure they can. Or they do their own version of PF core then again it comes to having three core books that are fairly similar and will have some in the hobby questioning the cost of the book or even if it is worth purchasing. 3.5 to PF1 to 3PP PF. How many times can one set of rules be recycled.

Another issue is that the company that does continue PF1 may have less resources, time and willingness to devote on publishing new material. As I see it almost everyone will probably be jumping at the chance to publish more for PF2 even if it's not as popular instead of PF1. If one is used to getting a certain number of releases for Pathfinder they might be disappointed.

Like 2E D&D maybe it's time to call it a day on PF1. We have ten years of published material with more to arrive for some time yet. Their are endless years of gaming. As I said above I'm just not seeing someone rush out to publish PF1 especially with 5E being popular and fixing many issues. Even Green Ronin who I thought would be a someone who was going to release more for Pathfinder re-released their Book of the Righteous for 5E and only for that version so far. Maybe I'm totally wrong and the opposite will happen.

Except I don't think I am as unlike 4E which many disliked 5E is popular and their seems anecdotally to me less unhappy fans like they were for 4E to draw upon.

As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it. It's in the smaller paperback form, but they will be publishing it.

IN addition, from what I can understand, 3rdPP can still publish for the P1E rules for their own worlds and creations under the various licenses.

Just because they are making PF2e, it does not sound like it is necessarily the death of P1E

There were two factors in the 3.x->4E transition that led to Pathfinder. One was the generally poor reception of 4E and the other was the licensing changes that made it harder for 3PP companies (like Paizo) to continue their business model. Paizo basically jumped in with Pathfinder so they could keep selling their APs.

I doubt there will be a similar gap to fill here. PF2 is going to be OGL in the same manner as PF1, so 3pp can easily make new content for it - including very likely conversions of PF1 stuff that Paizo doesn't get to right away.

If PF2 is a serious flop, there may be more of an opening for someone to pick up with a new version of PF1, but with 5E quite popular there'll be less incentive than there was back in the 3.x->4E transition.


Samy wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Most groups are not core only. This means, right off the bat, they have all those other options to utilize.

Yes, *options*, not *mandates*. They *can* use them if they want to, but they never *have* to.

So there is no problem.

if you play APs (a huge part of Paizo business AFAIK), you kind of have to use those options. Strange Aons included NPCs with classes in Psychic or mesmerist, for example.


thejeff wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.
yeah, publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead, that's just unnecessary cruelty and very cynical

This is the strangest argument I've seen on this topic.

Would it really be better if people couldn't keep buying the existing material if they wanted to continue playing PF1?

since you can get all the rules for free online anyways, people could always play the game. the only difference is that Paizo still wants to make money from a system they abandoned


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QuidEst wrote:
Marvelous Meowstic wrote:
So... I can't be the only one baffled by the 2E announcement. The desire for a system similar to 3.5 DnD is what drove Pathfinder's creation and what kept people coming back... why drop all of that now out of the blue?
In my group, backwards compatibility with 3.5 is seen more as the problems it causes. Any time I run up against a Sorcerer's limited skills and delayed spell access, a high level game is set up such that most PCs could one-round most other PCs, or I have to re-explain a bit of combat minutia, that's something that exists as a concession to 3.5 compatibility.
There is a difference between:
  • Tightening the rules / removing ambiguity
  • Standardizing rules langue
  • Clearly differentiating between rules text and fluff
  • Adjusting individual classes (e.g. unchained classes)

And:

  • A completely new action economy system
  • Changing the underlying mechanics for how gear works
  • Using class as a mechanism to how a character can act/react
  • Redefining how spell operate that have been essentially unchanged since Gygax wrote them.
  • Resetting available content to PF2 Core Rulebook + 1 Bestiary only

The first list moves Pathfinder 1.0 to Pathfinder 1.1. The game does not fundamentally change. I can still show up to PFS with my existing APG summoner and play (Though I might get dirty looks when I point out that existing summoners were grandfathered in and that she is on slow advancement.)

The second option means all of my existing characters get archived. Even if conversion rules are published, I still won't be allowed to show up and play my magus, or my summoner, or my tiefling sohei monk.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hythlodeus wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.
yeah, publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead, that's just unnecessary cruelty and very cynical

This is the strangest argument I've seen on this topic.

Would it really be better if people couldn't keep buying the existing material if they wanted to continue playing PF1?

since you can get all the rules for free online anyways, people could always play the game. the only difference is that Paizo still wants to make money from a system they abandoned

If people didn't want to buy hardcover or paperback books, then Paizo would loose money for printing them. If they are being bought, then there is still demand for them.

Please be introspective about things you are saying on the messageboard and think about how it comes across.


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Hythlodeus wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


As per what they said, they are STILL publishing P1E, even after PF2e comes out as long as people are buying it.
publishing rulebooks to an otherwise unsupported system, that's basically dead

How much support does a system need? If it was possible to play Pathfinder 1e in 2009 with the limited amount of material that was available then, it should be possible to play it in 2019 with the vast amount of material that is available now.

The only question is whether enough people will still want to play it.


I agree with the original poster. While I do not mind the IDEA of a Second Edition, everything I have read from Paizo about the new release sounds like the philosophy behind 4E, the universal hatred of which drove Paizo to success in the first place. "Party balance" is fine for WOW, but it has no place on a tabletop.

LOTR was not a great story because all of the characters were completely balanced, but because all of the characters had interesting flaws.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Considering that people who still play D&D 3.5 and refused to move to Pathfinder or further D&D editions exist, Pathfinder 1e is in quite good shape since even after new books stop being released for it it still has years worth of content easily available so someone could play it for ten another years without problem.

Heck, if you watch the Know Direction video, they want people to play pathfinder regardless of whether its 1e or 2e. They don't want "I'm 1e person" "I'm 2e person" edition war that people seem to be trying to start already :p

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

From a comment from the Know Direction podcast, it seems that one thing is being kept, Vancian casting. A big mistake in my mind, something that 3.0 should have done is have one wizard with the Spontaneous Casting being the mechanic behind all casting. Instead, we have two classes that do the same thing in the 3.0 PHB, the Wizard and the Sorcerer. The only difference is mechanics of how the spell is known. The advantage of the Sorcerer was inset with the silly balancing act of fewer spells (getting more castings instead from stat bumps) and later access to higher level spells.

With what they have in place, it is unlikely this turkey will be cooked until the advent of 3rd edition.

Sad. Truly sad.

Liberty's Edge

I absolutely agree that Vancian casting needs to die. At the very least, give us Arcanist style casting. The thing that's got me most excited about PF2 is that they won't be anchored to archaic D&Disms that hold the system back (D&Disms that even D&D has managed to shed in its later editions), and Vancian magic was one of the biggest I was hoping to see go away.

I really hope we can convince them to scrap that before the playtest is over.


I'd be all for PF2e if I were designing the changes. :)

With Paizo designing the changes, have to wait and see how it all turns out and then decide if I like PF2e. I can participate in the playtest and try to influence things, but as one voice in thousands I won't have any sway. Thus, PF2e makes me nervous that my long-term regular game might eventually be disrupted.


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Kain Dragonhand wrote:

Do you play video games?

Would you be happy if we stayed with the Xbox original instead of the Xbox One?

Or the PS2 instead of the PS4?

The problem with this argument is that yes, I would have been happy to stick with the SNES forever. Mostly because that's what I play most of anyway. The move to 3d, in hindsight, put video games mostly on a route I've discovered I don't care for as much as those older classic systems and the games produced with (or perhaps by) their limitations.

/off topic

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Progress can't be stopped, but throwbacks happen every once in while :p


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And as I've said in other threads, there is going to be a void in the market for PF Classic material once Paizo moves on to PF2. I am planning on taking advantage of that and getting into the publishing game with new adventures and material for Classic players, and I'm sure I won't be the only person in the 3PP market to see this as an open opportunity.

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