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There's a thing in 3.x that has always been annoying about magic items. I've always found it frustrating that a large number of cool and/or useful items are designed so that they're useless by the time you can afford them.
You know the ones. "Do something awesome once per day... successful Fortitude save DC 3 negates, price 300,000gp".
The price is a problem, certainly, but the abysmal DCs are the killer. Sure, you could wait until late-game to buy these neat items, but by the time you can afford them, wasting an action when you have a 5% chance of success is a very, very poor waste of limited resources.
I'd suggest PF2 is an appropriate time to revisit this design ethic. Magic items should be reasonably effective at the level they become available price-wise. As in should have somewhere near a 50/50 chance of success against a typical enemy, much like one's own abilities. Further, the items should remain relevant as the wielder levels up. Having to throw away one's items because they won't work.
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Perhaps something like
"This effect is based on the character level of the wielder, DC 10+1/2 Character level" or something to that effect.
Also magical items shouldn't have to have a +1 before adding special abilities, this kind of tax I think is as bad as feat taxes.
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How about now that you don't need magic items to adventure (no 'required' Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, cloak of resistance, etc.) we can do away entirely with 'YE OLD MAGICK SHOPPE'.
Get rid of it - make wands of healing available through temples/churches and just dump the ability to buy any item at any time.
*edit* if you couldn't buy and sell items - then game design could give a wizard a nice staff or the fighter a cool cloak that was useful when appropriate because they players wouldn't go 'hey neat a staff we can sell it for 75k and buy what we want'
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I think the weapon or armor needing to be a +1 before adding special abilities needs to go away. I also dislike the low saves on items, and the pricing of some items were terrible. I'd prefer for the big six to be baked into character level advancement so the other items.
As for items that increase ability scores they are common fantasy tropes so I do like them, but I also think they'll become the default items again if they have "always on" ability scores.
I would have them setup so that for so many <minutes/hours> per day or for so many times per day you get a bonus to your ability score. Activating them can be a reaction action. That way they still remain useful, but they don't make it so that other items never get chosen.
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I would like to see magic weapons and armor/shield act more like legendary weapons. You get your grandfather's sword which starts as a master work weapon and ends up being a holy avenger at higher levels.
From what I can tell from everything I've been exposed to (probably not everything) the +X bonus on weapons/armor is going to be determined in crafting quality, on a scale of presumably -1 to +3.
From this we can potentially surmise that like 5e the bonuses on things will only scale to +3 instead of +5, and that magic qualities will not be tied to the existing enhancement bonus of the item.
On the magic shop end, my group and I *like* having a lot of of options to chew through. We like having a lot of crunch, because it gives us a lot of things we can do, and gives both loot and enemies a lot of variety to work with.
Yes but if any item that just gives a +1 bonus is gone - there is no more crunch to the magic items.
Not having a magic item shop doesn't mean magic is 'rare' or that the setting is 'low magic' - it means you have to actually adventure (or create) your magic items. Removing the ability to sell magic items at any 'mage-o-mart' also removes the 'wealth by level' and 'items that are so cool but your GM won't hand out because they'd break the wealth game' problems.
Going back to the OP - removing the costs of the items means that giving a ring of invisibility to a level 3 rogue isn't breaking the game.
I think the +X enhancement bonus opportunity cost over the interesting abilities is GONE from this edition. In the introduction article they say your magic items will now be "really special" and you wont have to worry about the flat bonuses.
From what I can tell from everything I've been exposed to (probably not everything) the +X bonus on weapons/armor is going to be determined in crafting quality, on a scale of presumably -1 to +3.
From this we can potentially surmise that like 5e the bonuses on things will only scale to +3 instead of +5, and that magic qualities will not be tied to the existing enhancement bonus of the item.
I hope you are right, one of the reasons I love the bladebound magus is never having to upgrade my weapon.
... we can do away entirely with 'YE OLD MAGICK SHOPPE'.
Get rid of it - make wands of healing available through temples/churches and just dump the ability to buy any item at any time.
*edit* if you couldn't buy and sell items - then game design could give a wizard a nice staff or the fighter a cool cloak that was useful when appropriate because they players wouldn't go 'hey neat a staff we can sell it for 75k and buy what we want'
Alright, I don't know you -- you don't know me, but my opinion is so far from yours that I'm posting. If you want no variety, I suggest making a house rule (ruining it for the rest of us is just wrong)
Look, fun for some of us is all about the surprise of getting an unexpected magic item and for others it's getting enough coins to buy what we saw in the store.
We're trying to generate the hero in our minds and competing with what YOU think we should have? Geez... perhaps your players might like to have some choice in how their character evolves. Let them make the hero they want -- not the one you or 'game design' forces. I do not want to play a canned game, with canned characters, receiving and doing what everyone else in that situation has done. In contrast, working between individual heroic dreams, and the DM's provided realm has been fun for me on both sides of the table. Removing that option would have prevented some of the best moments my friends and I have ever had playing.
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Not having a magic item shop doesn't mean magic is 'rare' or that the setting is 'low magic' - it means you have to actually adventure (or create) your magic items...
And it wipes out the players imaginative choices... restricts them to YOUR choices, and 'game design' choices. It's a restriction that limits possibilities.
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I am in favor of anything that removes the required itemization. Cut down the Christmas tree.* Make items interesting and special, not required to keep up with game math. The gear treadmill needs to die. Given comments made about learning from ABP, I have some hope, though the best solution is to remove the need for static bonuses from the base math scaling.
*by mid levels character have so many magic items that they look like a Christmas tree when viewed by detect magic
...*by mid levels character have so many magic items that they look like a Christmas tree when viewed by detect magic
That's valid Stack -- but I don't want cookie-cutter chars plodding thru a campaign either. All feeling like it's been done before. I want things to adjust due to individual choices, and surprises along the way. I think they may be reaching for that, but we'll just have to wait and see.
And Wizzardman, I seem to agree with everything you're posting.
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On the magic shop end, my group and I *like* having a lot of of options to chew through. We like having a lot of crunch, because it gives us a lot of things we can do, and gives both loot and enemies a lot of variety to work with.Yes but if any item that just gives a +1 bonus is gone - there is no more crunch to the magic items.
Not having a magic item shop doesn't mean magic is 'rare' or that the setting is 'low magic' - it means you have to actually adventure (or create) your magic items. Removing the ability to sell magic items at any 'mage-o-mart' also removes the 'wealth by level' and 'items that are so cool but your GM won't hand out because they'd break the wealth game' problems.
Going back to the OP - removing the costs of the items means that giving a ring of invisibility to a level 3 rogue isn't breaking the game.
It also breaks completely any and all hope to build a character that depends even a little on items, since now you literally may never get certain items you want.
You pretty much roll with the punches now and get whatever your GM decides to toss your way next.
Not to say one cant trust the GM, but now having to go to the GM for each and every item you want for your build and making sure they add them to the game so you can use them would be a pain for both sides in my opinion.
Mind you, this is for every player.
Also you know APs and the rest? Now you literally will have to build for what drops in them, cause you know, you cant actually buy what you need now and then.
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...*by mid levels character have so many magic items that they look like a Christmas tree when viewed by detect magicThat's valid Stack -- but I don't want cookie-cutter chars plodding thru a campaign either. All feeling like it's been done before. I want things to adjust due to individual choices, and surprises along the way. I think they may be reaching for that, but we'll just have to wait and see.
And Wizzardman, I seem to agree with everything you're posting.
That's where is disagree. The only time I see cookie cutter characters is because they can go buy anything they want from the magic shop - and so they are making 'generic build from the internet #101'.
Unique characters that don't require 'item x' to function are what I find fascinating. Now - I'm not trying to fight over this either (and I actually like guides) - what I'm saying is if the stated design decisions are real - then we shouldn't see guides that require 'item x' to be viable ever again.
Perhaps 'no magic' might be a bit too bold - I guess to me magic just seems kind of bland when you don't need to risk life and limb for it and any merchant that has a good market for manure can buy a staff of power.
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It also breaks completely any and all hope to build a character that depends even a little on items, since now you literally may never get certain items you want.
You pretty much roll with the punches now and get whatever your GM decides to toss your way next.
Not to say one cant trust the GM, but now having to go to the GM for each and every item you want for your build and making sure they add them to the game so you can use them would be a pain for both sides in my opinion.
Mind you, this is for every player.
Also you know APs and the rest? Now you literally will have to build for what drops in them, cause you know, you cant actually buy what you need now and then.
Why would you build a character around a magic item to begin with? I have min/maxed myself plenty, but building an entire concept and that being broken if you don't get the magic item you want? You're not building a character, you're building a gimmick.
Magic items used to make a difference in stories, and were part of the story. When Bilbo picked up Sting for the first time, did you think he thought, "man when I get back to town, I'm selling this right away and buying this other thing" He didn't, the weapon became part of the story.
The one thing 3.x system did is nullify the awe of finding that weapon or armor and it making the impact it did. Also one of the downsides of hyper specialization.
It also breaks completely any and all hope to build a character that depends even a little on items, since now you literally may never get certain items you want.
You pretty much roll with the punches now and get whatever your GM decides to toss your way next.
Not to say one cant trust the GM, but now having to go to the GM for each and every item you want for your build and making sure they add them to the game so you can use them would be a pain for both sides in my opinion.
Mind you, this is for every player.
Also you know APs and the rest? Now you literally will have to build for what drops in them, cause you know, you cant actually buy what you need now and then.
Why would you build a character around a magic item to begin with? I have min/maxed myself plenty, but building an entire concept and that being broken if you don't get the magic item you want? You're not building a character, you're building a gimmick.
Magic items used to make a difference in stories, and were part of the story. When Bilbo picked up Sting for the first time, did you think he thought, "man when I get back to town, I'm selling this right away and buying this other thing" He didn't, the weapon became part of the story.
The one thing 3.x system did is nullify the awe of finding that weapon or armor and it making the impact it did. Also one of the downsides of hyper specialization.
Anecdote, but I built a Cipher Investigator that was strong skill wise but only supported in combat. I was trying to see how I could help the most, in an already full party, and ended up building an aid another build needing Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Gloves of Arcane Striking, and A Commander's Helm. Those two items were just as important as the two feats, and with them all I built one of the most memorable characters who filled an iconic role in our group.
Not having the ability to shop around would have left that character neutered, and I would have enjoyed playing them much less. I think to remove static bonuses from items is the right way to go, and I think more scaling items, as those introduced in Unchained, could be the way to make magic items last more levels worth of play.
A the fringe idea though, magic item slots could work with something similar to the Mythic Intelligent Items, and you get to choose what abilities they provide?
Where did this myth that magic items used to be special come from. They never were. Before 3e my experiences with magic items were all terrible. No guidelines as to when you got magic items meant you either didn't get anything or anything useful or you end up with too much stuff and no way to get rid of the excess. I played one campaign where I had 20 +1 longswords...Couldn't do anything with them, and 19 of them did nothing. I played one game where I had a staff of power at 3rd level and another where I was a 12th level with only a +1 weapon.
I really don't want to see to much drift away from the current system.
I really don't want to play a game where I'm 10th level and I don't light up like a xmas tree - If I only have 3 magic items at 10th level something has gone horribly wrong IMO.
I would love for the power of all magic item abilities and spell effects being based on the user with the exception of artifacts being set at max level(level 20?) regardless. So basically your character level and highest mental stat(or physical stat in some cases) are used.
I really don't want to play a game where I'm 10th level and I don't light up like a xmas tree - If I only have 3 magic items at 10th level something has gone horribly wrong IMO.
I agree with the sentiment, but - having just sort of bashed Starfinder in another thread - I would like to refine it. In Starfinder, you're only allowed two magic items. That's feeling just fine. But, at the same time there's a bunch of other things that are non-magical. They're technological. Mechanical improvements to feet that make you faster. Replacement eyes that make you see better.
My point is that I would be okay with PF2 having other ways of doing certain things. I don't really care if my character buys goggles of the night to get darkvision, or has to pay some sect for access to a pool of trans-planar energy which imbues his/her eyes with the same. Or if an alchemist sells him/her eyedrops that do the same. Or if he/she has to undergo a dangerous ritual to bind a fragment of a spirit to him/her to tap it for its abilities.
As long as we still have options to get things done, I'm not married to how they're done.
Bonus points to Paizo if "how it's done" is neutral, allowing a GM to fit the best method of delivering "ability" to a PC. Like... "to obtain something that does things like those listed on Table 6, a Type C ritual/experience/gifting/binding is recommended."
I really don't want to see to much drift away from the current system.
I really don't want to play a game where I'm 10th level and I don't light up like a xmas tree - If I only have 3 magic items at 10th level something has gone horribly wrong IMO.
I don't want a default assumption of 'low magic' - I only was mussing over the fact that the reason some of the items that cost so much don't get found 'when they are useful' is because they cost too damn much and would ruin the balance of the game if they were sold for 'the big 6'. Removing 'the big 6' changes so much about the game and it's assumptions - I just can't help but wonder if the ability to sell magic items just hampers the idea of putting cool stuff in dungeons for players to find.
It also breaks completely any and all hope to build a character that depends even a little on items, since now you literally may never get certain items you want.
You pretty much roll with the punches now and get whatever your GM decides to toss your way next.
Not to say one cant trust the GM, but now having to go to the GM for each and every item you want for your build and making sure they add them to the game so you can use them would be a pain for both sides in my opinion.
Mind you, this is for every player.
Also you know APs and the rest? Now you literally will have to build for what drops in them, cause you know, you cant actually buy what you need now and then.
Why would you build a character around a magic item to begin with? I have min/maxed myself plenty, but building an entire concept and that being broken if you don't get the magic item you want? You're not building a character, you're building a gimmick.
Magic items used to make a difference in stories, and were part of the story. When Bilbo picked up Sting for the first time, did you think he thought, "man when I get back to town, I'm selling this right away and buying this other thing" He didn't, the weapon became part of the story.
The one thing 3.x system did is nullify the awe of finding that weapon or armor and it making the impact it did. Also one of the downsides of hyper specialization.
Because they are a major part of the game and allow you to compensate for weakness or problems your PC would have otherwise without them.
If you take this way, then this level of play is literally nullified, items become a non factor in builds and you will use whatever you drop at the time, things like a fighter that is good with swords? Forget this, cause you might have an axe to use not a sword.
Mind you, i played games like this in PF1 even, a dark souls campaign where you simply didnt have access to a magic shop where you could get what you wanted, this broke some PCs who needed certain weapons on their builds and literally led to mages domination as never before they had, since they didnt depend on the drops as much.
And it wipes out the players imaginative choices... restricts them to YOUR choices, and 'game design' choices. It's a restriction that limits possibilities.
Not having a magic item shop doesn't mean magic is 'rare' or that the setting is 'low magic' - it means you have to actually adventure (or create) your magic items...
Well, that depends on what the 'create magic items' options are. If every party has some way to craft whatever they want, then it's mechanically the same as magic item shops, but with a different flavor.
Keep the magic item "rarity" as it is. I personally like the "No Magic Shop" stuff, or at least make it that they have to find the rare NPC crafter. But I can see why the optimization people want to have super precise loadouts. Different ways to play are supported just fine atm.
I am not a fan of magic shops but I am fine with selling potions, low level scrolls, used wands, and sometimes something really nice;)
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Items that grant +X by level Y being built into the game math, I would argue, makes items less interesting and more cookie cutter. A large portion of your wealth is taken up by items that grant bonuses the system assumes you have. This is boring.
Also, shopping while creating mid to high level characters takes a long time. The lists of near useless magic items that have to be sifted through are endless.
Items that grant +X by level Y being built into the game math, I would argue, makes items less interesting and more cookie cutter. A large portion of your wealth is taken up by items that grant bonuses the system assumes you have. This is boring.
Also, shopping while creating mid to high level characters takes a long time. The lists of near useless magic items that have to be sifted through are endless.
Yeah, when I'm looking for items, I don't see many cool or unique items that are worth their salt outside of the Big 6 and the flavor-of-the-rulebook broken items pending an obvious nerf.
ABP from Unchained being baked into the game's infrastructure and being actually balanced around it fixes a lot of this issue, and the other can be fixed by better item design, which needs significantly more work.
And while yes, one solution is "Make them yourself," and is a solution I've done in the past numerous times, there may be some things or aspects I'm forgetting that the developers are more aware of. Plus, having a lazy button is nice, too...
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You don't NEED automatic bonus progression to be baked in because you can change the rate of scaling so it isn't required. +5 to saves is only needed if the expected DCs are 5 higher than they should be at that level. Granting everyone +x AC at level Y is unnecessary bookkeeping since you can just not boost monster damage to require that Pcs need that +x.
I'm not saying don't scale, I'm saying don't scale faster than the base class chassis keep up.
I think we're all saying important things. I want the option to design level appropriate/beneficial items, that I can place in situations for players to find. I want players to be able to walk by a store and see some items (that I approved, and placed in the shop); I want them to be able to sell what they have... and purchase something that's helpful from that shop, and desirable to them. I don't need a shop that says "You can have whatever you want, from any book, webpage or friend".
If you don't want players to buy items: don't have a shop. Some campaigns it makes sense; some it does not. The game system they're presenting to us hopefully allows for the diversity we want (it may not, but I'm hoping it does).