I assume they'll instead see they had a need they filled with the shifter (a shapeshifter that is less complex than druids) and find a better way of doing it than...that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm Well If I can make a druid without spells and animal companion that focus on just shape shifting It might not even be necessary to make the shifter its own class.
Edit: actually that would be kind of cool give up other features for like legendary shifting and a legendary natural weapon attacks or however its going to work.
I think the shifter just needs to be an archetype for the Druid which trades out spell casting for more martial prowess and stronger shape shifting.
LOL Well if we go by the other classes and how stretched out their abilities are, I'd guess wildshape will come in about 9th or 11th in the new rules... if that's the case, a shifter archetype doesn't seem too exciting.
I'm guessing Druid will bet getting a one-level delay on Wildshape, since fixed features are at odd levels now.
I disagree with basing it on the druid chassis. A spellless ranger, sure. But a spellless druid would have to bring a LOT of power along with it, and that seems like more work and word count than might be worth it.
I'm guessing Druid will bet getting a one-level delay on Wildshape, since fixed features are at odd levels now.
With mutagen pushed back 4 levels and debilitating strikes 5 levels, wildshape at 5th seems unlikely.
|
I'm guessing Druid will bet getting a one-level delay on Wildshape, since fixed features are at odd levels now.With mutagen pushed back 4 levels and debilitating strikes 5 levels, wildshape at 5th seems unlikely.
Except of course that Sneak Attack, Bombs/Extracts (in the form of Alchemical Items), and just about every other Class Feature we've heard except those two hasn't been pushed back at all. Indeed, Lay On Hands is available at 1st level now (so it's been pushed forward a level), and Weapon Training/Specialization (in the form of being a Master with your weapon) has likewise been pushed forward to 3rd.
So...assuming this is incredibly premature.
Except of course that Sneak Attack, Bombs/Extracts (in the form of Alchemical Items), and just about every other Class Feature we've heard except those two hasn't been pushed back at all. Indeed, Lay On Hands is available at 1st level now (so it's been pushed forward a level), and Weapon Training/Specialization (in the form of being a Master with your weapon) has likewise been pushed forward to 3rd.I'm guessing Druid will bet getting a one-level delay on Wildshape, since fixed features are at odd levels now.With mutagen pushed back 4 levels and debilitating strikes 5 levels, wildshape at 5th seems unlikely.
You'll notice a pattern in the pushed back abilities: they are buff/de-buffs that alter your hit/abilities. Your basic damaging/heal one [sneak attack, bombs, lay on hands] stay. So I think it's a pretty good inference: I think it's much more likely than not that it gets pushed back from where it is now.
Of course, it IS possible they dramatically rework wildshape so it's appropriate for lower level though that rework may be as much of an issue as a level pushback.
So...assuming this is incredibly premature.
"I'd guess"... When is it too soon to make a guess?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to see martials, particularly non-caster martials like fighter and gunslinger to have some ways to participate better in the other 2 pillars of rpgs (the exploration and the interaction).
|
|
You'll notice a pattern in the pushed back abilities: they are buff/de-buffs that alter your hit/abilities. Your basic damaging/heal one [sneak attack, bombs, lay on hands] stay.
Lay On Hands you actually get early, but sure.
So I think it's a pretty good inference: I think it's much more likely than not that it gets pushed back from where it is now.
I strongly disagree. Basically because two examples of something are an extraordinarily tenuous thread to base such an assumption on. And because I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions from what gets pushed back and how far.
Of course, it IS possible they dramatically rework wildshape so it's appropriate for lower level though that rework may be as much of an issue as a level pushback.
Uh...what do you think Wild Shape is gonna do in the new edition? I mean, it lets you fly, but 5th level gets you 3rd level spells that already do that (in all likelihood anyway).
In combat terms, since they're avoiding stat boosts per se, it seems very likely that it will grant the equivalent of +2 Str (what it grants at 4th in PF1)...which is to say +1 to hit, +1 damage. Or maybe even +2 to each, making it more powerful than in PF1. Or maybe nothing at all beyond the natural attacks.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable 5th level ability, especially since Mutagen (presumably a similar buff) is already confirmed as 5th level.
It's not like they're pushing abilities back for the heck of it. If they're doing it they're doing it for a reason, and what reason would there be to put Wild Shape much higher than 5th?
"I'd guess"... When is it too soon to make a guess?
Never. But you didn't say you were guessing. You sounded pretty definite that someone else's guess was wrong. I responded in kind, since I'm pretty sure you're wrong. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to see martials, particularly non-caster martials like fighter and gunslinger to have some ways to participate better in the other 2 pillars of rpgs (the exploration and the interaction).
Skill Feats are hopefully gonna do a lot to help this particular issue.
The real question is will we have to wait 10 years and the end of pf2 going into pf3 before we get a new shifter for pf2?Oh yeah, how could I forget the Shifter? That needs a rework right out of the box . . . .
I think it's been implied that the new books are not simply going to be 2.0 versions of already made books. So after the core book I expect we will see options books that mix and match older updated content with newer stuff. So we could see a specialist shapeshifter much earlier than where we saw it in 1E
Lay On Hands you actually get early, but sure.
I'm honestly unsure about about lay on hands: paladins aren't my thing.
I strongly disagree.
Cool.
Uh...what do you think Wild Shape is gonna do in the new edition? I mean, it lets you fly, but 5th level gets you 3rd level spells that already do that (in all likelihood anyway).
It most likely is getting rework like spells, so it's get the 'upcast' ability: hard to say where the ground floor is going to be. it's possible it starts off as mostly cosmetic and works up from there.
In combat terms, since they're avoiding stat boosts per se, it seems very likely that it will grant the equivalent of +2 Str (what it grants at 4th in PF1)...which is to say +1 to hit, +1 damage. Or maybe even +2 to each, making it more powerful than in PF1. Or maybe nothing at all beyond the natural attacks.
It's really going to depend on how size is worked in. And natural attacks. I'd guess there is some kind of modifier, but whether it's stat, hit or something else, who knows.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable 5th level ability, especially since Mutagen (presumably a similar buff) is already confirmed as 5th level.
It's not like they're pushing abilities back for the heck of it. If they're doing it they're doing it for a reason, and what reason would there be to put Wild Shape much higher than 5th?
My reasoning is that mutagen is pretty straight forward [stat change and AC] while wildshape is utility and stats and AC and attacks and senses and... Wildshape just does SO much more, hence it either would do less at 5th or it gets pushed back IMO.
Never. But you didn't say you were guessing. You sounded pretty definite that someone else's guess was wrong. I responded in kind, since I'm pretty sure you're wrong. :)Right above the post you'd quoted. That and the one you posted I said "seems unlikely": I NEVER said they where wrong and I was right. "guessed" and "seems".
I think the shifter just needs to be an archetype for the Druid which trades out spell casting for more martial prowess and stronger shape shifting.LOL Well if we go by the other classes and how stretched out their abilities are, I'd guess wildshape will come in about 9th or 11th in the new rules... if that's the case, a shifter archetype doesn't seem too exciting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We will leave Pathfinder 1E with 40 Base Classes. I am excited to see a fresh approach to all of these classes and everyone in this thread has had some interesting and fun ideas so far. So I thought I would drop the full list of all 40 Base Classes here for everyone to reference when they are thinking of classes and coming up with ideas.
Alchemist
Antipaladin
Arcanist
Barbarian
Bard
Bloodrager
Brawler
Cavalier
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Gunslinger
Hunter
Inquisitor
Investigator
Kineticist
Magus
Medium
Mesmerist
Monk
Ninja
Occultist
Oracle
Paladin
Psychic
Ranger
Rogue
Samurai
Shaman
Shifter
Skald
Slayer
Sorcerer
Spiritualist
Summoner
Swashbuckler
Vigilante
Warpriest
Witch
Wizard
So far all I can think of is that I would like to see the Samurai and the Ninja become more unique classes and less similar to the Rogue and Cavalier, although I am not sure what that might look like.
|
|
I'm honestly unsure about about lay on hands: paladins aren't my thing.
Fair enough, but it is evidence some abilities are occurring earlier rather than later.
It most likely is getting rework like spells, so it's get the 'upcast' ability: hard to say where the ground floor is going to be. it's possible it starts off as mostly cosmetic and works up from there.
This is very possible.
It's really going to depend on how size is worked in. And natural attacks. I'd guess there is some kind of modifier, but whether it's stat, hit or something else, who knows.
Direct stat modifiers are unlikely, IMO. But yeah, it depends a lot on exactly how things work. Which is sorta why I think assuming it'll get a huge level jump is an odd assumption.
My reasoning is that mutagen is pretty straight forward [stat change and AC] while wildshape is utility and stats and AC and attacks and senses and... Wildshape just does SO much more, hence it either would do less at 5th or it gets pushed back IMO.
Well, Mutagen can also explicitly (in this edition) get passed out to others in the party while Wild Shape really can't. that indicates that Wild shape could be quite a bit more flexible at the same level, IMO.
Mutagen may also have gotten more complicated (Mark Seifter referenced 'Bullheaded' Mutagen to jack up Will Saves, for example...which could be renamed Wis booster, or something more involved) and seems certain to include cognatogens.
Right above the post you'd quoted. That and the one you posted I said "seems unlikely": I NEVER said they where wrong and I was right. "guessed" and "seems".
Fair enough. I just think you're being weirdly pessimistic in your guesses.
I just think you're being weirdly pessimistic in your guesses.
I prefer to think I'm just weirdly pessimistic in general. ;)
For me though, it really boils down to just how far back mutagen and debilitating strikes have been pushed back: before the blogs I wouldn't have thought they would have been pushed back 4+ levels. Now, anything not 100% integral to the class seems like it could be pushed back and with as much as wildshape does now... I just can't see it staying as/is at the old level.
|
|
I prefer to think I'm just weirdly pessimistic in general. ;)
Fair enough. :)
For me though, it really boils down to just how far back mutagen and debilitating strikes have been pushed back: before the blogs I wouldn't have thought they would have been pushed back 4+ levels. Now, anything not 100% integral to the class seems like it could be pushed back and with as much as wildshape does now... I just can't see it staying as/is at the old level.
Debilitating Strike is actually super powerful in a system with fewer bonuses and penalties and was only ever as early as it was in Unchained Rogue for math reasons (ie: they needed a to-hit bonus). Mutagen meanwhile seems to have been powered up quite a lot as well as pushed back (ie: includes cognatogens, can be passed off to other party members, multiple Mutagens brewed at once).
I'm not sure either is a good barometer for the changes in general.
Debilitating Strike
I would have thought lowering the modifier and/or requiring an action to use would have allowed it lower than 9th. If unaltered, I could see it at 9th, but I'd have rather it show up, even in a minor form, before 1/2 your levels are over.
Mutagen
I'm not sure on "powered up". They seem to be more 'focused' to be sure, but the 'base' one is the only one passed off: Mutagen feats seem to affect the alchemist. As to multiple one and being able to pass them around, it sounds to me that mutagen counts as part of the alchemical items you make during the day, so the boost is at the cost of another item [in pathfinder classic, an extract]. So in a way, it's just a different 'extract'. It's not clear if the 'free' ones made/day stocked either.
I lol just said this in another thread but yes graystone is generally weirdly pessimistic.
We will leave Pathfinder 1E with 40 Base Classes. I am excited to see a fresh approach to all of these classes and everyone in this thread has had some interesting and fun ideas so far. So I thought I would drop the full list of all 40 Base Classes here for everyone to reference when they are thinking of classes and coming up with ideas.
Alchemist
Antipaladin
Arcanist
Barbarian
Bard
Bloodrager
Brawler
Cavalier
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Gunslinger
Hunter
Inquisitor
Investigator
Kineticist
Magus
Medium
Mesmerist
Monk
Ninja
Occultist
Oracle
Paladin
Psychic
Ranger
Rogue
Samurai
Shaman
Shifter
Skald
Slayer
Sorcerer
Spiritualist
Summoner
Swashbuckler
Vigilante
Warpriest
Witch
WizardSo far all I can think of is that I would like to see the Samurai and the Ninja become more unique classes and less similar to the Rogue and Cavalier, although I am not sure what that might look like.
Umm... what about this guy?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That appears to be 3rd party material, not official Paizo stuff.Umm... what about this guy?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/
No it's a Paizo thing specific to their "Vampire Hunter D" book. Probably doesn't need to be converted, though.
That appears to be 3rd party material, not official Paizo stuff.Umm... what about this guy?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/
It actually is published by Paizo..but I don't think it's "official"
No it's a Paizo thing specific to their "Vampire Hunter D" book. Probably doesn't need to be converted, though.That appears to be 3rd party material, not official Paizo stuff.Umm... what about this guy?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/
I need to own that book >.>
Which classes are you most excited to see remade from a fresh foundation? For me its the witch. I despereately want a witch that gets proper support for non evil flavoured abilities and abilities that are useful for pcs as well as long term debilitating status effects that are useless in combat but great things to hit your players with. I want the witch alto be as viable as a protagonist as an antagonist.
Of the core classes, Barbarian, Paladin and to a lesser extent Monk, because they are the ones where a specific flavour and conception of how you should roleplay iseems to be baked in. This is worst with barbarians because the class name alone conjures up 'savage warrior from primitive lands".
I'd be fascinated to see if it was possible to create a single class that covers both monk and barbarian in one - lightly armoured warrior who achieves extra combat prowess by use of internal focus - but I think the classes are too fossilised into their roles by now.
The real question is will we have to wait 10 years and the end of pf2 going into pf3 before we get a new shifter for pf2?Oh yeah, how could I forget the Shifter? That needs a rework right out of the box . . . .
Not necessarily the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Shifter, but I wonder if one of the preludes to Pathfinder 3rd Edition will be the release of a book that includes a single buggy class that needs a lot of FAQ/Errata updates to make it work right (and having one outstandingly even buggier archetype that even such extreme measures can't get into shape) . . . seems to have happened this time, anyway.
I need to own that book >.>No it's a Paizo thing specific to their "Vampire Hunter D" book. Probably doesn't need to be converted, though.That appears to be 3rd party material, not official Paizo stuff.Umm... what about this guy?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/
I quite enjoyed the book myself.
the class is interesting too. Full BAB, 6 skill points, 2 good saves, martial weapons/med armor/shield, supernatural 'vamp-like' powers and 4th level casting and a pile of bonus feats too. Of course there is plenty of anti-vampire stuff too. Overall not bad: I WILL say that if you don't met a lot of vampires, you'll see several abilities you have do nothing.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The real question is will we have to wait 10 years and the end of pf2 going into pf3 before we get a new shifter for pf2?Oh yeah, how could I forget the Shifter? That needs a rework right out of the box . . . .
Not necessarily the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Shifter, but I wonder if one of the preludes to Pathfinder 3rd Edition will be the release of a book that includes a single buggy class that needs a lot of FAQ/Errata updates to make it work right (and having one outstandingly even buggier archetype that even such extreme measures can't get into shape) . . . seems to have happened this time, anyway.
Shifter...the class so terrible and broken it made the devs give up on PF1 and start a whole new game...
Oh, I don't really care about it. I was just kinda being a goof. ~40 base classes is already so far beyond "sufficient" it's a little absurd. To me, anyway. Especially because archetypes are a thing...
I want a rogue who is actually a rogue and not just a beefed up Ezio on a killing rampage.
Cavalier!
Imagine the ability to give up an action so that a teammate can have 1 action on your turn, that is how tactician should work.
Also I'd like having all the horse and charge options be class feats instead of baked in.
Alchemists- Not a complete overhaul, but... as I've said with by-now tedious levels of repetition, I really wish they were more a la carte-
For example, I love the bombs- love 'em. I LOATHE mutagen. Moreover... the two don't really go together on the thematic level. Plenty of other people love mutagen and hate bombs... but as matters stand, we're usually stuck with both.
Shaman- Of all of the hybrid classes, this is the one I was least thrilled by on a thematic level. I'd ditch the conventional spellcasting entirely, but make them stupidly good at rituals (including getting a pass on required conventional spellcasting), and leave hexes in as a thing they do. Give them far more of a social skills/performance emphasis while I'm at it.
Bard- Insert obligatory "Cole wants the option of Bards that don't cast spells" bit here. Move along folks, absolutely nothing new to see here.
Paladin- No other class as it currently exists causes quite as much woe, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
Ranger- Some option to take sneak attack, the ability to get rid of spells (a bandwagon lots of people seem to be on- rangers as spellcasters is Highly Traditional and surprisingly unpopular despite that), open up the skills... much as I love Slayers, I love them purely because the base Ranger doesn't quite get the vibe right.
More to follow!
Rogue- A less physical option would be nice. Not every outlaw is out to shiv their enemies...
Sorcerer- I'd like them to beat up the Kineticist and take some of their stuff. Casting formal spells seems a bit odd as an inherent ability. Sorcerer magic should feel more raw, less refined.
Clerics- I'm mentioned my longing for the old AD&D 2E Specialty Priest level of flavor elsewhere. Making clerics more granular would be a neat way to get some of that back.
Monks- Given the absurdly martial focus of the base monk, I'd like it to be renamed to Sohei or Temple Guardian or something. That way we could use the word "monk" a little more liberally.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
barbarian:I think they don't have enough mechanical aspects to show how the nomadic/wilderness aspect if the character. In 2e that would probably be giving them something extra for the nature skill. Maybe also give them an animal focus type ability if you want their nature powers more supernatural
Paladin/inquisitor/warpriest: make a general warrior of the faith class, possibly with archetypes to mimic the specific classes (like giving holy protection for paladin, the tracking for inquisitor and holy boon like effects for warpriests).
Occultist: I would like the implement system to be more robust and maybe replace their magic completely (especially since I didn't like how similar psychic powers were compare to regular magic)
Kineticist: I'd like their powers to not be based on taking damage since it just didn't feel right according the people I play with as well as myself.
monk/ninja: I want the ki abilities to be a more fully fledged system.
I also want martial characters to have more supernatural options and archetypes. Since most pathfinder campaigns have a lot of magic in the world its weird that a fighter or rogue wouldn't pick up a few tricks
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kineticist: I'd like their powers to not be based on taking damage since it just didn't feel right according the people I play with as well as myself.
Yep, I never liked burn. Punching myself in the face to use my abilities never sat well with me either.
I want a rogue who is actually a rogue and not just a beefed up Ezio on a killing rampage.So what sort of abilities does this rogue develop by, say, 5th/10th/15th/20th level?
Scouting, crafting, disable traps, find secret doors, find information, interrogate people, distrupting enemy formation and procuring battle advantages with clever use of terrain and items and their own traps. This kind of thing. You know, rogue things. Assassin/swasbuckler should be an archetype (in the broad english sense of the word) of the fighter and not the rogue imho.
can't disagree, I really had trim my list for my post
Kineticist: I'd like their powers to not be based on taking damage since it just didn't feel right according the people I play with as well as myself.Yep, I never liked burn. Punching myself in the face to use my abilities never sat well with me either.
I think its suppose to be more like exhausting yourself. pulling form your own life energy to fuel but I probably watch more anime then you.
I think its suppose to be more like exhausting yourself.
I'd buy that is you could rest/heal it. it's permanent until the next day though... it's MORE like fire starter brain damage/nose bleeds that's killing you. No matter HOW beat up you are in dragonball, you can ALWAYS somehow scream for an entire episode and somehow not only continue to fight but get to a new level of super saiyan while you're at it. ;)
PS: and then Dende could come behind and just heal you up and you where ready to go...
I probably watch more anime then you.
LOL I grew up an starblazers, robotech, Space Battleship Yamato, The Super Dimension Fortress Macross and such. I've watched anime frequently since then and am currently watching the new dubbed starblazers remake, Boku no Hero Academia 3rd Season, Persona 5 the Animation, Darling in the FranXX, ect...
I think its suppose to be more like exhausting yourself.I'd buy that is you could rest/heal it. it's permanent until the next day though... it's MORE like fire starter brain damage/nose bleeds that's killing you. No matter HOW beat up you are in dragonball, you can ALWAYS somehow scream for an entire episode and somehow not only continue to fight but get to a new level of super saiyan while you're at it. ;)
I probably watch more anime then you.LOL I grew up an starblazers, robotech, Space Battleship Yamato, The Super Dimension Fortress Macross and such. I've watched anime frequently since then and am currently watching the new dubbed starblazers remake, Boku no Hero Academia 3rd Season, Persona 5 the Animation, Darling in the FranXX, ect...
Ah but do you have a hero acadameia alias?
Your right about the not being able to get rid of the non-lethal. Feel like that would be a good place for the PF2 kinestcist to go. Being able to heal the burn in between combats. (maybe even some of it during combat)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah but do you have a hero acadameia alias?
Revolver! A hero with the ability to make things spin. With the right equipment I can fly [spin the air], fire air blasts, power generators, power skate, torpedo swim, ect. ;)
Ah but do you have a hero acadameia alias?Revolver! A hero with the ability to make things spin. With the right equipment I can fly [spin the air], fire air blasts, power generators, power skate, torpedo swim, ect. ;)
... I approve!
A Boku no Hero student campaign (ideally in a classless system designed for supers) is something that would actually get me into a PbP on these boards. (I don't check the recruitment boards, so if somebody does it please throw me a PM)... I approve!Ah but do you have a hero acadameia alias?Revolver! A hero with the ability to make things spin. With the right equipment I can fly [spin the air], fire air blasts, power generators, power skate, torpedo swim, ect. ;)
I played a similar game a while ago that was based off of A Certain Scientific Railgun. It was where I had the original idea for revolver: it was pretty fun before it broke up when the DM got a job and couldn't keep up the game.
It didn't help that 80% of people were thinking "Avatar" when the kneticist came out.
Also what anime has the supernatural system give a character exhaustion based damage? The closest thing I can think of is Digimon season 1-3 but that was more hunger since eating food restored them. Maybe Dragon Ball but I think they stopped doing that early.