I was wondering if there was any detailed discussion of the role playing of a Neutral Cleric of an Evil Deity (either on the forums or in one of the supplement books). I haven't had much luck in searching
Clerics can be one step away but still give of an Evil Aura if they worship and evil deity (something I actually only just learnt because I had never looked into it closely enough)
I am just having trouble understanding how someone can be a Cleric (so most ardent priest of a deity) and not be Evil for some of these deities when you look at the portfolios
How would LN Cleric of Zon-Kuthon actual work when pain and torture is such a big thing
Or a N Cleric of Urgathoa or Norgorber (regarding disease, undeath / greed and murder)
On the inverse the Good deity portfolios don't seem to be quite as obviously slanted toward "good" and gives more wiggle room to be neutral
I can understand how people could worship these deities and not be evil to an extent. But to be a priest of that deity and not fully subscribe to some of the key aspects is tricky for me to get my head around...
There are multiple reasons an evil deity might want a non-evil follower around. For example, the follower may have a better opportunity to corrupt a good aligned citizen into giving in to their personal desires and conforming to the deity's way of life. The cleric may also have been a previous worshipper of a good deity, disliked their edicts, and much preferred going the other way, so he didn't feel restricted by having a good conscience, yet he's not so long gone that he would turn fully evil.
Heck, maybe he finds there is some good in certain evil edicts that he would rather use them to his advantage than, say, a good aligned character might otherwise be willing to do.
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Let's look at Zon Kuthon.
In Pathfinder, which is a game about adventurers, he's this lunatic god of an evil church chock full of madmen and sadists. Why? Because that's the stuff that adventures are made of.
BUT...
In Golarion, if this is a reasonable place full of reasonable people, would anyone tolerate a church of Zon Kuthon? No - it's a cult of madness and murder and would be stamped out by authorities or mobs with torches. Would such an organization be able to rule Nidal - which seems like a fairly well run place - for THOUSANDS of years? Of course not - it would be full of crazy people and they'd invite disaster in every couple of weeks.
So... maybe the Church of Zon Kuthon isn't as evil as the material we generally see in the Adventures. Maybe it's a lot more rational and reasonable. Maybe there's something to it beyond the needles and the scalpels and the chains.
So let's say that the bulk of the Church of Zon Kuthon is a Nidalese national cult, with a focus on concepts of loss and mourning. You can easily extract that from the material - it's boring for adventures, so it's been de-emphasized for YOUR use, but that doesn't mean that it's not how things actually are on the ground in Golarion.
There's definitely that ulcer of evil pulsating deep in the Church. People do go missing and then come back... wrong... in Nidal. There are things in the shadows... but then again, they stay in the shadows.
So yeah, a neutral cleric of Zon Kuthon makes sense. He's part grief-counselor, part therapist. When people die, the cleric of Zon Kuthon comes to the house and people cry and weep and he comforts them about change and the continuity of life. When children are born, the cleric of Zon Kuthon celebrates that the old family has gone and a new one is born, but we must honor our ancestors. They talk about the old ways and old promises, but, while looking back, keep their feet in the present.
"That church of Zon Kuthon down the street? Yeah, people go there. They are kinda somber people those Nidalese, but decent enough folks. Pastor Tom came by when my father passed... my sister cried on his shoulder and he whispered in her ear. Things got better."
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Some are a bit trickier. Norgorber for instance - he's basically all the worst things about humanity. I dunno how you could have a neutral cleric of him. But we have structures within pathfinder for worship of Asmodeus [Cheliax, the Hell Knights] which aren't entirely evil. I can see local cults of Lamashtu worshipping her as a fertility goddess.
There's ways to get there.
As Yakman said, the enemies we usually see in adventures represent the pure evil side of these religions.
Paizo has written in some redeeming factors for each one, however, so it's reasonable that someone who's not completely insane/apocalyptically evil would want to follow these gods. (With the exception of Rovagug, really...)
Let's look at some examples.
Urgathoa is not just about disease and undeath, she's also about gluttony and hedonism. Those are fun, if unsavory, things. Cults of Urgathoa probably throw some intense parties, and followers might see becoming undead as a way to continue enjoying their existence.
Lamashtu is associated with birth, fertility, and motherhood, although with a heavily monstrous slant. Monster races such as gnolls venerate her. Followers of Lamashtu also see madness and deformities as sacred, and a neutral follower could create an asylum or some other sort of care home to take in the disabled.
Zon-Kuthon is about pain and torture, yes, but there's room in the religion for more of a BDSM slant. The followers of Zon-Kuthon see pain as a cleansing experience, a catharsis, and inflicting pain on someone does not have to be non-consensual.
You could also take a look at this guide written for clerics, which has some roleplaying advice for each of the gods:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AyStICZqzIfeIfvv8nv-JoF-jgfY0Dn2R0MQSqA BYrs/edit?hl=en
Yeah....I've always found it difficult to see why someone who wasn't evil would decide to worship an evil deity.
About the only reason I can come up with is:
Evil deities offer power without the same sort of requirements good deities do. So you can get your free power up without having to burden yourself with a requirement to uphold good.
Which doesn't mean you go around doing evil all the time, or don't sometimes do "nice" things but you do make it your mission to do either.
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With a bit of finagling, you can come up with reasoning for almost any evil god. If push really comes to shove, there's always the Separatist Cleric Archetype. You could be a worshiper who, through perhaps his own studies or what he may call divine intervention believes their god offers something different than what standard dogma claims.
For example, say you were a Separatist Cleric of Rovagug. Perhaps you have come to believe that, rather than an unholy abomination that exists in opposition to a continued peaceful existence, you could have come to the conclusion that Rovagug is a natural part of a universal cycle, who, when the time is right, will break down the universe so that a new one may take its place. He could have both the Destruction domain to emphasize the universes demise, and Artifice to symbolize its rebirth. This could make you be viewed as a heretic by more orthodox worshippers, but I think that in and of itself offers interesting roleplaying opportunities.
One other god I think its worth mentioning is Nocticula, the CE Demon Lord of Assassins, Darkness, and Lust. Evidence has arisen that said Demon Lord is looking to ascend to true deity status, but not as a CE Goddess, but rather as a CN Goddess of Artists, the Forelorn, and the Beauties of Midnight. Its possible your worshiper could believe their god or goddess seeks a new path, and you could simply be ahead of the curve.
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That's the nice(?) thing about religion. Enough mental gymnastics, and you can justify anything.
I figure, LN cleric of Z-K would be in the camp of 'torture/murder/etc. people who deserve it' rather than it being a recreational activity.
Or you just adhere to the parts of the dogma that make sense to you. They're all going to be on the nastier end of the neutral spectrum, since they worship entities that countenance horrible stuff, but, well, it's a tough old world out there, and most evil deities encourage their followers to get tough. If your medical care is medieval and conditions primitive, a Lamashtan midwife might well be your best shot at surviving childbirth.
A Kuthite cleric devoted to enduring pain, the church's excellent medical skills, and who doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't them to, can ride the LN line.
An Urgathoan hedonist can be self-indulgent without trying to infect literally every peasant they meet with disease.
Norgorber's actually pretty easy to whip up a neutral cleric for- an information broker who deals with and informs on everybody. It ain't all Skinsaw Cultists.
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I feel like Neutral clerics of evil deities and quasi-deities are people who are generally optimistic about what the deity is really about. Urgothoan gourmands, Asmoden contract lawyers, Cultists of Nocticula who believe she's angling for redemption, etc.
It's sort of equally odd to look at neutral followers of some of the very good deities. Like a Shelynite who's into art, but not all that kindness and helping stuff is no odder than a Kuthite who is entirely unwilling to torture anybody without their consent.
One other thing that's worth considering; some people worship not out of love or devotion, but out of fear. A Neutral Cleric of an Evil Deity may worship not because they actually like the deity, but out of the hope that placating them with words and deeds will forestall worse calamity. Perhaps one worships Urgathoa in the hopes that spreading disease and undeath in other lands will stop such things from befalling their home and loved ones. A follower of Lamashtu may sick beasts and madness upon a neighboring village, hoping that will keep Lamashtu's beasts from her own throat. One who destroys and kills in Rovagug's name may hope the resulting calamity is enough to calm the Rogue Beast's unquiet rumblings. Fear is a powerful motivator.
There's an LN cleric of Zon-Kuthon in Shattered Star who, if I remember right, believed that Dou-Bral sacrificed himself to save his sister and became Zon-Kuthon in the process. He focused more on the masochistic elements of the faith.
[somewhat vague for possible spoilers]
A neutral cleric of an evil deity might not be fond of the less savory aspects of the faith, but feel the deity has a shot at becoming neutral, like some of Nocticula's cultists. Or they might focus on one particular aspect of the faith and view that as the most important one, and not see any other gods as meeting that aspect quite as well.
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Zon-Kuthon is about pain and torture, yes, but there's room in the religion for more of a BDSM slant. The followers of Zon-Kuthon see pain as a cleansing experience, a catharsis, and inflicting pain on someone does not have to be non-consensual.
The way that I see nonevil Zon Kuthon worship is through a martial arts training montage- the kind where you walk over coals, do long strenuous labor, holding balanced positions for long periods, etc.
In this light, the pain can be seen as a way to make yourself stronger. It isn't blind pain- it is purpose built to both build up your body and your mind.
Additionally, Zon Kuthon tends to attract tortured souls (no, not you whip!)- going back to the training thing, you could see people that have an insane devotion to training because of some self perceived fault.
They are beating themselves up (pun intended) over some mistake, so they subject themselves to hellish torture in order to try to avoid that kind of weakness in the future.
That's the nice(?) thing about religion. Enough mental gymnastics, and you can justify anything.
I figure, LN cleric of Z-K would be in the camp of 'torture/murder/etc. people who deserve it' rather than it being a recreational activity.
That is why I try to do both alignment and gods for most of my characters, even when they aren't a religious class- I feel that the mental gymnastics help me to flesh out my character.
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Deities mostly don't care about your alignment, at least unless yours makes you completely antithetical to their goals. They care whether you adhere to the tenets of their faith. This is another of those cases where alignment causes more problems than it solves by introducing arbitrary dissociated mechanics leading to useless dilemmas. I'd rather consider, "Is this character acting in accordance with Lamashtu's will" than "Does this character ping on detect pigeonhole, then if so is this character acting in accordance with Lamashtu's will?".
LN worship of Asmodeus as a deity of contracts, Law & Order, etc seems like it could make some sense. Big A cooperated in locking up Rovagug, so his cult might similarly be able to work along with those of Good and Neutral deities to achieve common goals. I’d imagine that LN worshippers of Asmodeus might be fairly common in Cheliax. Perhaps some of them like to be as nice as their religion allows - at least until there's some law or contract to enforce, when it might be more like, "Sorry, but the Law says...". I'd imagine that willingness to enforce the harsh rules of some Evil deity might be enough to make an otherwise Good creature Neutral.
I once made up an NPC named Chef Diobari (an anagram of the original spelling of Boyardi) who worships Urgathoa as a goddess of hedonism and feasting but downplays her association with Evil. He might try to tempt folks into feasting on forbidden foods, but he’d present it as “just for the taste of it” rather than as a way to corrupt their souls.
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I play a CN cleric of Lamashtu, and a LN divine hunter of Achaekek (both in PFS).
The cleric is a separatist. She believes that all creatures deserve a mother's love (something she never really had herself, being a half-orc raised in Belkzen). She worships Lamashtu as "the Holy Mama", a goddess of motherhood and childbirth, and does not recognise her as a demon lord at all. The name Lamashtu means nothing to her. Nana is a midwife (and a pathfinder, and a pirate).
The hunter adheres to most of Achaekek's tenets devoutly. Support the divine right of kings, no killing for free (except in self-defense), and worship of false gods is the worst of sins. He never kills for its own sake, and does not take joy in killing (well, except maybe a little bit when killing Razmirans.) He's very lawful at heart, and takes responsibility very seriously.
Both characters find aspects of their deities to focus on that are not specifically evil. For Nana it's motherhood and childbirth, and the mother's love. For Tooth and Claw (the hunter), it's righteous punishment for sinners.
I'd quite like to play an Urgathoan glutton sometime too.
There are also general 'fear and reverence' style evil gods. Nurgal is a god of the sun that gets worshiped by creatures that fear the sun (he represents the harshness of the sun, as seen in the desert). So I can see worshiping this kind of god as a form of 'protection money'- worship for blessings so 'nothing happens to that nice village you got there'.
A classic 'virgin sacrifice to a volcano' thing.
...ok, I am adding this in part just to see if I am still logged in after the updates. But I kept the message on topic at least!
The way I see it, one main factor is the big difference of whether you're just doing this stuff yourself and encouraging other people to accept "enlightenment", or going around torturing or reanimating or raping people.
The second is focusing on the less evil aspects.
As much as from a player perspective it might seem difficult to misinterpret a religion in Golarion when you can just cast Commune or Preserve Grace, that doesn't really apply to the normal people we just don't see a lot of (because something something game constructs do you really want the GM to constantly tell you this town has no mid-level cleric you can ask for a Remove Curse, either?), and it's pretty clearly shown that it's a thing that happens. Cult of the Dawnflower, for instance.
Plus, there's the matter of environment. If your parents and neighbors all worship Asmodeus, and they're all fine reasonable people, and largely they taught you what you know about the faith, that's going to be generally more significant than reading about a bit of more evil stuff, or a few stories of bad things happening to people who everyone knew better than to act like.
Specific religious practices will differ, and there will generally be toned-down versions; for example, Norgorber's deific obedience doesn't say the poison has to be fatal or anything.
My newest PC is a neutral changeling worshipper of Falayna, Pharasma, and Lamashtu... despite her very straight-laced anti-demon Mendevian upbringing, she sees Lamashtu as primarily a goddess of motherhood with an emphasis on accepting monstrous kids too and being unapologetic about not always fitting into societal expectations.
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I am just having trouble understanding how someone can be a Cleric (so most ardent priest of a deity) and not be Evil for some of these deities when you look at the portfolios
How would LN Cleric of Zon-Kuthon actual work when pain and torture is such a big thing
Or a N Cleric of Urgathoa or Norgorber (regarding disease, undeath / greed and murder)
One thing to consider is that many gods *are* evil (or good, chaotic or lawful), but aren't necessarily gods *of* evil (or good, chaos or law). Abadar, who is explicitly a god of law, and not just a lawful god, would be an exception, for instance, but Calistria isn't a god of chaos, just because she's chaotic, and Urgathoa isn't a god of evil, just because she's an evil god.
Zon-Kuthon's ethos could be seen in light of his own experiences. He went into a dark place, and was forced to cut away anything weak about himself to survive the experience, and has returned to Golarion to share these insights. The only way to survive the coming trial is to strengthen oneself by slicing away any part of oneself that is not strong enough to endure, and the only way to prepare oneself is to test oneself, again and again, until no amount of pain or loss or horror can match what you've already embraced willingly, and any threat from the outer dark (such as the Great Old Ones, or the Dominion of the Black) that wants to slither down from the dark places between the stars and invade Golarion is going to find that the people of Nidal, at least, are ready for them. Zon-Kuthon's faith is not explicitly one of sadism, of cruelty and inflicting pain because it's fun, but because they are seeking some sort of enlightenment or empowerment in the act.
Other evil faiths could similarly be explored in a less 'bwa ha ha, we're evil for the lulz!' light.
Urgathoa is selfish and all about exploring gluttony and pleasure and excess, and a non-evil Urgathoan could regard undeath as a reward, allowing them to exist forever, not something to be spread willy-nilly to *everyone.* (It's no fun being at the top of the food chain, if you destroy the rest of the food chain in the process, after all!) Sure, there are evil branches of evil faiths, such as the Urgathoans in APs who spread diseases willfully, but a non-evil Urgathoan will kind of 'cafeteria' that particular tenet away and focus more on the gluttony aspect, and perhaps eventually on becoming undead and continuing the party and the feasting forever.
As long as the various gods *want* mortal worshippers, for whatever reason, they are likely to tolerate followers who don't get their message 100% right, and the one-step-alignment rule, that allows for non-evil clerics of evil gods (or non-good clerics of good gods, etc.), it seems that most, if not all, gods, are willing to accept a range of different moral and ethical positions within their clergy (to say nothing of their non-clerical worshippers, who can literally be *any* alignment).
Even Rovagug could be seen as a Shiva figure, part of a great necessary cycle of creation and destruction and rebirth, no more 'evil' than fire, and there's are millions of people in the real world who see nothing contradictory or 'un-good' about venerating a god whose role is to literally set fire to the universe and burn it all down to make room for the next cycle.
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You could be someone who rejects the more... extreme sides of the god you worship.
Say a Kuthonite who only indulges in consensual torture. To outsiders, it's neither sane nor safe. But to the person, they're being safe and sane. They make sure that they don't pass on infections and nobody dies. Because if someone dies, all the fun ends. And to them, everyone ELSE is insane and should mind their own business really.
(also we need a good-aligned god who's all for kinky stuff)
(also we need a good-aligned god who's all for kinky stuff)
Arshea immediately springs to mind...
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{. . .}
You could also take a look at this guide written for clerics, which has some roleplaying advice for each of the gods:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AyStICZqzIfeIfvv8nv-JoF-jgfY0Dn2R0MQSqA BYrs/edit?hl=en
Linkified. Also, while we're at it, here's the link to the main document.
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The biggest problem I have with clerics and oracles not matching their patron's alignment is that it doesn't really make a lot of sense. These are servants of beings who are supposed to worship, obey, promote and possibly even emulate. If you work for an evil god, you will be doing evil stuff, and doing evil stuff tends to make you evil.
...Okay first off, Oracles don't give a flip about their Patron. If they even know who their Patron is. The Oracle's entire purpose is being a Loose Cannon who despite maybe not seeming to work within the Patron's goals winds up doing so anyways just by being there, because Gods work in mysterious ways.
As to Clerics, like people said, you don't have to obey, promote, and emulate the entire portfolio. Heck, if you look at the Domain system, it's pretty much built into the class that you're only directly linked with part of the Deity's portfolio. Now if your link is to your God's alignment aspect, well, in order to take an Alignment domain you have to actually be that alignment. But as others have said, the Gods are multifaceted. Asmodeus is the Lord of Hell, but also God of Contracts and one of the most powerful forces of Law. Zon-Kuthon has the whole torture and pain thing going on, but his Interests also includes such aspects as Loss, or just Darkness (particularly the Plane of Shadows if I remember my Lore correctly.) And the same stuff applies for the non-Evil gods. Irori isn't just Self-Perfection, he's also got History and Knowledge. Shelyn covers both Love and the Arts. Erastil has Hunting and Farming, but also Family and even Trade. Calistria has Lust or Revenge, or even just general Trickery. Heck, Cayden can be Bravery and Freedom, or just general Alcohol. Just pick a facet that applies most to your Cleric, focus on that aspect, and take Domains that best apply to it.
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The biggest problem I have with clerics and oracles not matching their patron's alignment is that it doesn't really make a lot of sense. These are servants of beings who are supposed to worship, obey, promote and possibly even emulate. If you work for an evil god, you will be doing evil stuff, and doing evil stuff tends to make you evil.
In my 3.5e (homebrew) campaign world this is how I run things. The gods are jealous, and demand strict observances in exchange for the power they grant their chosen servants.
But in Golarion-based pathfinder games, and in PFS, I'm fine with it. Different campaign, different rules. As I posted earlier, I have a couple of non-evil followers of evil gods in pfs; it works for that particular campaign, where the gods function and behave somewhat differently than the gods in my home campaign.
A LN worshipper of Asmodeus still ends up in Hell, right? Presumably people like "clerics of a sufficient level" are aware of these sorts of metaphysical details. I would imagine you could do just as well at the whole "law and order" schtick in Cheliax as a follower of Abadar, just in case you prefer Axis.
As Norgober cleric you can just run spy networks and collect and trade information for personal benefit (kind of like less kinky Calistria), as Urgathoan cleric you can just be selfish hedonist with a distant dream of becoming everliving (or everunliving) undead, but then you cant enjoy your debauchery so that will have its time.
Clerics of Zon-Kuthon may be harder, but then creatures Kytons think that pain and torture is form of enlightenment and spiritual exercise, which does not sound as bad if you look at it that way.
Worshippers of infernally connected demigods such as the archdevils and the infernal dukes could be more lawful than evil, focusing on the endlessly shifting methods of practicing law and arguments. Asuras could question all kinds of divinities, not just the good or neutral ones. Rakshasas, as representations of materialistic evil, could be passes off as necessary evils of the material plane.
Daemon worshippers do not have to be necessarily focused on cruelly ending all life. Their worship could be a simple observation on the inevitable end of things. Likewise, div worshippers could observe how things become corrupted over time. Sakhil cultists could study fear itself, much akin to psychologists.
Qlippoth cultists combat and oppose sin, which can be considered an admirable goal in many locations. Demon worshippers simply want to have fun, and to be fair, it’s not easy having a good time.
The biggest problem I have with clerics and oracles not matching their patron's alignment is that it doesn't really make a lot of sense. These are servants of beings who are supposed to worship, obey, promote and possibly even emulate. If you work for an evil god, you will be doing evil stuff, and doing evil stuff tends to make you evil.In my 3.5e (homebrew) campaign world this is how I run things. The gods are jealous, and demand strict observances in exchange for the power they grant their chosen servants.
But in Golarion-based pathfinder games, and in PFS, I'm fine with it. Different campaign, different rules. As I posted earlier, I have a couple of non-evil followers of evil gods in pfs; it works for that particular campaign, where the gods function and behave somewhat differently than the gods in my home campaign.
No reason why you couldn't have some of each even in the same world. Some deities might insist on absolute purity, while others might be more flexible in their acquisition of market share worshipper base, and might even purposely commission multiple churches not all of the same alignment.
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Qlippoth cultists combat and oppose sin, which can be considered an admirable goal in many locations. Demon worshippers simply want to have fun, and to be fair, it’s not easy having a good time.
Arguably, Rovagug was trying to destroy the world not because of wanting to end all existence (that's the Daemons' goal), but in a desperate attempt to prevent the flood of sinful mortal souls and the resulting flood of Demons from trashing the rest of the Abyss.
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No reason why you couldn't have some of each even in the same world. Some deities might insist on absolute purity, while others might be more flexible in their acquisition ofmarket shareworshipper base, and might even purposely commission multiple churches not all of the same alignment.
Norgorber, whose church is already split into four factions, revering him as the Reaper of Reputation (focused on secrets and knowledge, blackmail and politicians), Father Skinsaw (murder, yay!), Blackfingers (alchemy and poison) and the Gray Master (thieves), seems custom-built for this sort of thing.
While it's not explicitly the case, he also allows NE, CE, LE and N clergy, and one could have the alignments divided up among the four aspects (CE for Father Skinsaw, LE for the Reaper, NE for Gray Master, N for Blackfingers, for instance), if you wanted to go that way.
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A LN worshipper of Asmodeus still ends up in Hell, right? Presumably people like "clerics of a sufficient level" are aware of these sorts of metaphysical details. I would imagine you could do just as well at the whole "law and order" schtick in Cheliax as a follower of Abadar, just in case you prefer Axis.
It's possible that once the cleric realizes that their soul is Hell-bound, they might feel that they are "in too deep" and that they're better off aiming for a better position in Hell than trying to switch sides and making enemies in the process. In a place like Cheliax, defecting from Asmodeus to Abadar could also be seen as offensive - an insult to Asmodeus - even if simply being a cleric of Abadar wouldn't be a problem.
It's also possible that the cleric could genuinely believe that Asmodeus is the more powerful deity and that in the long run it's better to be in his service. Hell might not be the nicest place, but if you think it's going to take over eventually then it's better to be the conquerer than the conquered.
No reason why you couldn't have some of each even in the same world. Some deities might insist on absolute purity, while others might be more flexible in their acquisition ofmarket shareworshipper base, and might even purposely commission multiple churches not all of the same alignment.
I'm leaning in this direction with my worldbuilding. I feel like Iomedae, for example, would be more likely to accept only LG clergy, while Ragathiel might be OK with LG or LN but not NG, and Erastil would be fine with the one-step rule. Some TN deities like Nethys just might be fine with worshippers of any alignment.
^Furthermore, in all but name, Sarenrae seems to accept more than the 1 step rule (especially with all those worshippers that are also slaveowners).
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Going to Hell is not necessarily a bad thing in this cosmology. A sufficiently powerful soul can gain great power within Hell and roll that right back into lasting temporal power, entering an eternal power struggle instead of facing eternal torment.
Deities have different aspects, and most of the evil deities have a more palatable aspect that can be focused on.