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By the old gods and the new, please help me with this, I'm going mad. Not the "angry" mad, the "I'a I'a chtulhu ftagh'n" mad.
One of my players, based on pfsrd, thinks that EVEN if a surprise round did not occur, and EVEN if everyone is aware of each other succeeded in their perception checks and what not, you are STILL flat footed, until your initiative turn comes up.
Now, I do not completely trust the SRD on all matters, and being a stupid college student who for some reason decided to study Law, time to check the rulebooks accurately is at a premium.
I checked online and conferred with a fellow GM, which said that it is certainly true that you are flat footed even in a normal round until your turn comes up and you act: but ONLY if there a surprise round OCCURRED in the first place, not in every single combat you will ever make in your poor PC life!
Could a kind, good soul, help a fellow GM not to fall into the clutches of eldritch madness and tell me who the BANANA is right between the two, and WHY?!?
Possiblynotbasedonjustthesrdentries,whichsometimesareoutofcontextduetothemb eingorganizeddifferentlyforeasy,uhm,reference
Your friend is correct, and you are incorrect. Characters are flat-footed until their first regular turn in the initiative order. This condition is defined on page 178 of the Core Rulebook, (Chapter 8 - Combat).
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot becaught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
There is no mention at all of a surprise round here; in fact, the surprise round is not even mentioned until after the discussion of the flat-footed condition.
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Flat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
That’s why rogues try to get high init modifiers, so they can get a free sneak attack on the lumbering fighters!
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Yep, you're flat footed in combat until you take your first action in that combat.
For what it's worth, the "Temple of Elemental Evil" computer game assumes everyone is flat footed until their initiative turn is up. That's *really* helpful when trying to maneuver into position without incurring AoE. Let alone getting sneak attacks from the Rogue.
Your friend is correct and I sympathize with your feelings on this. By rule, you are flat footed until your first action. It is also the first rule I threw out the window in my home games.
Why?
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Why?
It makes sense that people could be caught flat footed if combat spontaneously broke out or if people are taken by surprise. In those situations I keep the rule in place.
On the other hand, if two groups are facing each other down and expecting a fight to break out at any moment, it didn't make sense to me that people would be caught flat footed.
I mean, it only lasts for 1 round and basically is a small AC penalty and an inability to make AoOs. It makes rogues vaguely competent by allowing them to make a sneak attack on the single attack they'll probably get before struggling to make sneak attack work afterwards.
Why?It makes sense that people could be caught flat footed if combat spontaneously broke out or if people are taken by surprise. In those situations I keep the rule in place.
On the other hand, if two groups are facing each other down and expecting a fight to break out at any moment, it didn't make sense to me that people would be caught flat footed.
Eh. If two groups are facing each other down and expecting a fight to break out at any moment, I'd already have declared initiative anyway. If things are really tense, both sides would likely have readied actions by that point.
That is similar to what I do, but by strict pathfinder rules it doesn't really work that way.
I generally tell the players that they are already in combat rounds. If someone readies an action it may come off as an aggressive action and start the fight.
Strict Pathfinder rules don't define what constitutes "when combat begins", so it's left to interpretation. A number of published Paizo adventures indicate rolling initiative in situations where nobody moves for their sword or starts incanting a spell, so clearly GMs like us aren't the only folks who think this is reasonable.
Problematic in what way?
Pathfinder is still high fantasy. While I don't think we quite need gunslingers faster then their own shadow, performing an unarmed sneak attack against your guard with incredible speed (and thus without provoking) sounds about right. As the guard is both aware of you and your potentially hostile intentions there wouldn't be a surprise round. The rogue needs to exploit his flat-footed condition.
If someone has trained to overcome this weakness he can simply pick the Combat Reflexes feat, allowing him to perform attacks of opportunity even while flat-footed.
I guess we simply have a different opinion about what should be possible in a high fantasy setting. In my mind it should allow for the story of the incredibly skilled arena fighter, who manages to end fights before his opponent even realizes what is happening.
The defending arena fighter doesn't stop or anything like that either. He probably starts closing in to take a swing, but his nimble opponent bolts forward before he has any chance to read his movements. Dodging an attack is almost impossible if you don't have a read, much less retaliating. Mechanically the attacked guy didn't move of course, but the action during a combat turn happens simultaneously from a narrative standpoint, so it is perfectly fine to describe him basically walking straight into the rogues attack, falsely believing to be the aggressor in this confrontation.
Once his turn comes up he had the time to evaluate the situation and understands the dynamic of the fight much better. Initiative isn't just about how quick you can move, but also about how quick your mind can react to new situations.
You can't think of being flat-footed as standing around drooling either of course. It is simply a state of not being fully immersed yet, so your reflexes aren't quite as fast as they could be.
The few exceptional individuals who are truly always ready can get the appropriate feats and class features. One big selling point of rogues, barbarians and the like is that they simply don't get caugth flat-footed once they are sufficiently skilled after all.
In short I must admit I don't fully understand the problem with the concept of being just a little bit too slow to react to an attack in an appropriate way. Do you think it is bad in a narrative or a mechanical way?
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Use the rule as written. Otherwise rogues lose their initial sneak attacks and their (and others') abilities of 1/2 of Uncanny Dodge mean nothing. Don't like it? Invest in Improved Initiative, Uncanny Dodge, and armor that works while flat-footed.
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It's a whole other story if you're LITERALLY charging in to attack something and, per the rules, MID STRIDE, you cease moving entirely to be shot in the kidney by the rogue who rolled a higher initiative than you.
You don't "cease moving". Well, no more than any other situation where turn-based combat requires you to do nothing while waiting for others to act. Some guy with fast reflexes moves fast and catches you off-guard, that's all.
Worse, you've entered into an arena match with one other person, and you've both been circling and holding action until the referee/proctor/whistle guy says "kill each other." Per the rules as writ, the latter two are just as relevant to this discussion as being jumped on the road by bandits.
The rules are ambiguous for when combat starts. In this case you should probably say you're in a combat situation and roll initiative. On your turn, you choose not to attack yet because you'd get in trouble with the referee, so you move into position and ready an action (I throw a dagger at my opponent if the referee blows his whistle). The other guy does the same. The referee blows the whistle. Neither party is flat-footed, because combat had already begun.
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I think the flatfooted rules are a legacy compromise for the rogue.
Back when the rogue was called the thief and sneak attack was called backstab, the rules were that the thief could backstab for extra damage when behind the target. But early D&D had no rules about how to determine facing, so the effects were determined by storytelling: The fighter was commanding the attention of the enemy, so the side of the enemy opposite the fighter was the back. Or the thief slipped out of the shadows and approached the unsuspecting target from the back.
Later editions of D&D formalized this. The rules officially declared that D&D had no facing, and backstab became sneak attack because going behind someone was no longer possible. Flanking for sneak attack was the formalized version of another party member was in front of the enemy so that the rogue was behind. Flatfooted for sneak attack was the formalized version of caught unaware.
Thus, flatfooted during the first round means that the rogue rushed in for combat while the target was perhaps sitting eating a sandwich or chatting at the town well with his back to the rogue. It does not mean that the target was "LITERALLY charging in to attack," as Zarius said. That does not even make sense for the Pathfinder rules as written. Charging is a full-round action, so the target would have already taken an action and no longer be flatfooted.
The argument in this thread seems to about what happens when the timing of the game changes from the minute-by-minute timing of diplomacy or travel or approaching a gate or holding opening ceremonies to the round-by-round initiative timing of combat. I myself hold that if combat began during the minute-by-minute timing, then no-one is flatfooted during the change to round-by-round initiative. The character had a chance to act during the minute-by-minute timing, so the conditions do not qualify as "before you have had a chance to act."
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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On an interesting note, the OP’s idea of how it works is now true in Starfinder.
You are only flat footed before your first turn if you are surprised. Characters are not flat footed before their turn in normal combat (though they are still prevented from taking attacks of opportunity until their turn comes up).
This rule, while entirely in the writing, is entirely idiotic.
Why?
Problematic in what way?Creatures (or PCs) get surrounded or cornered in a way that can greatly unbalance the combats. Basically, one side gets auto-flanked/pinned to the point where playing out the combat is a giant waste of time. Also, any concept of front line and second line is entirely lost as one side just wanders through the enemy with absolutely no repercussions. It was often made worse by “us in a box” situations that are common in APs. There were more than a few encounters where the PCs just walked through the room, bypassing the entire encounter and locked the door behind them. Funny the first few times, but eventually made for a poor gaming experience.
How are the PCs locking the door? Why is there a door on the other side of the room sitting open for them to rush through? How do the PCs moving into the next room know that they aren't triggering an encounter in that room as well and getting themselves stuck between two encounters worth of enemies instead of one?
I guess I have trouble imagining this scenario not eventually playing out as a comedic beat down the PCs if tried often enough against anything other than mindless zombies:
Players: Hahaha, stupid GM, watch as we avoid your encounter!
PCs 1-3 walk through the room and out the door, laughing at the stupid Orcs.
GM: Orc 1 waves at the PCs on the other side of the door, slams the door shut and locks it. Orc 2 and 3 flank PC 4 and attack.
PCs: Okay we'll --
GM: Orcs 4-8, having just watched 3 adventurers stroll into their room and get the door slammed behind them stop playing dice and run at the PCs while drawing their weapons.
I only briefly scanned the thread so if it has already been mentioned you can ignore this but there are dueling rules in Ultimate Combat. You are not flatfooted in a duel.
I don't think you're missing anything I remembered the rule wrong. It's been a few years since I read that particular rule and I never actually used it(I think). Oops. :(
Use the rule as written. Otherwise rogues lose their initial sneak attacks and their (and others') abilities of 1/2 of Uncanny Dodge mean nothing. Don't like it? Invest in Improved Initiative, Uncanny Dodge, and armor that works while flat-footed.
I should mention that I was in a game just yesterday, and the GM was allowing a move and a standard action in the game in a surprise round. That's incorrect, and makes this flat-footed rule twice as tough on those who lose surprise + initiative.
From the PRD:
"The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC."
So, if you are subject to the surprise round AND last in initiative, usually a melee opponent will just get stuck doing the move action in the surprise round, and then the full attack in initiative (as opposed to what was happening in my game: move + attack in surprise, and attack again in initiative [note that archers and casters do still get 2 attacks here though]).
I should mention that I was in a game just yesterday, and the GM was allowing a move and a standard action in the game in a surprise round. That's incorrect, and makes this flat-footed rule twice as tough on those who lose surprise + initiative.
Given that you can charge in a surprise round (maybe including pounce, depending on GM's ruling), the additional action is a smaller change than it might look like first.
That said, there are legal ways to get both actions in a surprise round. A rogue (bandit) 4 can do it, and gets a swift action on top.
The good news is: Acting in a surprise round and good initiative depends on different statistics. The first is tied to Wis and Perception (sometimes Sense Motive), the latter to Dex and your initiative modifier. So it's less likely that a creature is really good at both or really bad at both.
Observant combatants deserve an edge (surprise round), quick combatants deserve one too (initiative count) and those in thick armor and with a big weapon get one anyway (when it comes to trading blows over multiple rounds). None of them deserves to get a default win in every situation...
@TarSpartan and @Mike J:
AoE = Area of Effect
AoO = Attack of Opportunity
Seems funny reading about moving about trying to avoid areas of effect. :-)
/cevah
The Battle Mystery and Time Mystery both give you something very similar to this. As do the Sandals of Quick Reaction, or something like that. But Sohei monk gets a lot of mileage for a one level dip.