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As per the request of the forum moderators, to present focused and direct threads that aren't 'circling around' 'waiting' for 'game updates', I am creating this new thread to discuss the issues and concerns revolving around Druidic Wild Shape and Shifter Wild Shape.
Currently, as written, the Shifter Wild Shape is an underpowered version of Druidic Wild Shape, and there hasn't been clarification on the interaction of the two types .
In such a vein, there were several thoughts going through the 'Changes to Shifter' thread regarding this secondary ability (for Druids) and crucial primary ability for Shifters.
With this preamble aside, what are the opinions on the Wild Shape conundrum?
Is there a preference to see them all work like a Druid?
Is there a stronger preference to perhaps change the Druid's Wild Shape (as well as any other class with such a function) to the Shifter version, for play balance reasons?
Should Aspects even factor into Wild Shape, or should they be their own thing?
Thank you very much for your time in advance!
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I'd like to divorce stats from shape- allow me to bite just as well with the corgi aspect (...yeah, Mark added that in the shifter errata thread) as I do with the wolf aspect.
Ok, slightly more serious- I'd rather not have my stats attached to size. Because some sizes are inconvenient. This seems relevant to me, because the recent change in the shifter's wild shape appears to allow them to change back and forth while still using the same hour of wild shape use.
This could be great for intrigue campaigns- you could turn into a wolf, sneak in, and rip out a throat, and then turn into your natural form around the corner. And no one would realize you were the culprit. This could be fantastic of a 'druidic assassin' kind of feel- which would be a rather comfortable place for shifters (the less magically trained/martially focused class associated with druidic circles). "This is what you get for polluting the river!"
So I'd rather not HAVE to be a tiger with a large sized rear end, since that means I have to squeeze through corridors.
So relegating size based stat boosts to a few aspects might be cool (this means that the bull aspect would eventually be a 'required' aspect; but fliers and pouncers already introduce this problem).
I feel this can work better than trying to force a "it works like beast shape" and adding a long list of "EXCEPT"s afterwards that pretty much remove most of the things from beast shape. Better to just start over with a new slate and just say "this ability is considered a polymorph effect".
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I would prefer wild shape to be function similar to the druid's, I'm not a fan of such a hyper focused choice that you see maybe in an archetype. The Shifter doesn't necessarily need the access to all the same forms as a druid. I'll plant shape and possibly elemental shape but I would agree certainly agree to them having vermain shape and access to magical beast shape.
As for the aspects it's real simple. Don't make them forms you change into, rather make them changes you can apply to your base form and your wild shape form.
-Falcon Aspect + Beast shape III into a hippo = flying hippo with talons.
-Stag Aspect + Beast Shape III into a crocodile = really fast crocodile trying to gore you chasing you around.
-Tiger Aspect + Fire Elemental form = Fire Tiger with claws and pounce.
It's really that simple, chimeric aspect could even come into play. Could truely be something chimeric.
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I'd like to divorce stats from shape- allow me to bite just as well with the corgi aspect (...yeah, Mark added that in the shifter errata thread) as I do with the wolf aspect.
For reference I made a doc that's just the Shifter class with all the recent changes Paizo made. I also included the corgi just because.
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I'm not a fan of such a hyper focused choice that you see maybe in an archetype.
I wouldn't mind focused if it was categories such as lizard, canine, feline, avian, rodent, ect.
As for the aspects it's real simple. Don't make them forms you change into, rather make them changes you can apply to your base form and your wild shape form.
-Falcon Aspect + Beast shape III into a hippo = flying hippo with talons.
-Stag Aspect + Beast Shape III into a crocodile = really fast crocodile trying to gore you chasing you around.
-Tiger Aspect + Fire Elemental form = Fire Tiger with claws and pounce.
It's really that simple, chimeric aspect could even come into play. Could truely be something chimeric.
For me, I'd like minor aspects to give a base ability that's always on: For major aspects and chimeric, my idea is that secondary aspects allow you to swap out an ability from your main form for one from the secondary. So, for instance, a main feline combined with a secondary avian could be a cheetah that swaps out it's increased land speed for fly speed.
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As I mentioned in the other thread, while I'm not opposed to releasing Wild Shape, I'dther give the Shifter its own class feature rather than just copying the druid.
This is partly just for the sake of making it different, and partly because Wild Shape does have some issues with complexity and power creep.
I'm not entirely sure how I'd re-write it, though I like greystone's suggestion that you should get a set of different types of abilities from each Aspect and mix them up using Chimeric aspect. I believe it was at some point phrased as a sense, movement, defense, and offense for each aspect.
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As it stands, I actually like the idea behind aspects and wild shape. Instead of having everything, you specialize in one particular animal, going so far as to do things with it that a druid could not. You even get to make those itirative attacks with them now! With the way they specialize in specific animal forms over having a broad spectrum, it almost makes me want to alter that old comparison that gets used.
Instead of "Shifters are to Druids as Paladins are to Clerics" I'd almost want to go with "Shifters are to Druids as Sorcerers are to Wizards."
As for the current state of things? Mixing it up with hours is pretty good for giving back a little bit of that feel where you can actually change (dare I say Shift) forms as the day's challenges require. The lower total hours per day kind of eat into you being able to rely on it as a primary means of combat, though. Heck, a Barbarian out of rage rounds is still swinging that +2 Holy Adamantine Greataxe, but you're down from TigerMurderDeathpounce to two natural attacks that kinda scale.
Makes me wish there was some kind of middle ground. Get some of those extra attacks on your base form or something.
All of that said, I've made peace with the Druid being a more powerful class thanks to more variety in wild shape, spells, and a companion. At this point I'll play Shifter for the Oozemorph and maybe roll up a Feral Hunter if the wild shape urge hits me.
As for the current state of things? Mixing it up with hours is pretty good for giving back a little bit of that feel where you can actually change (dare I say Shift) forms as the day's challenges require. The lower total hours per day kind of eat into you being able to rely on it as a primary means of combat, though. Heck, a Barbarian out of rage rounds is still swinging that +2 Holy Adamantine Greataxe, but you're down from TigerMurderDeathpounce to two natural attacks that kinda scale.
Makes me wish there was some kind of middle ground. Get some of those extra attacks on your base form or something.
Yeah. They could use an option in order to shake up the attacks.
An easy way to do it would be to allow the shifter to trade out their claws for a single natural attack of their aspect (example- bull's gore). If they only have one weapon, they get 1.5x attack, and then they can use that new ability that allows them to get iteratives on a natural weapon to basically just act like a 2 hander.
Alternatively, allow them to grab a single attack along with the claws (example- classic bite/claw/claw). I'd like both options, personally- it lets you tiger it up or try to smash it out with a slam (...wait, none of the forms actually have a slam? Missed opportunity).
Actually, as a motif, I might like it if the shifter just did weird stuff with the natural weapons. Like grow a bull's horn out of their hand for an attack- because a head gore is awkward on humans, and this image see cool for a character that has mastery over their form. I could also see someone holding a person's throat in their hand... which turned into a wolf's maw.
While the idea has some appeal and would be an improvement in some aspects, I think just giving the Shifter full wildshape would make its identity issues even worse.
Major Aspects are actually kind of a cool idea, as being hand crafted allows you to break the normal limitations and rules polymorph spells have to deal with.
The trouble we have here is just that many of the options are way too conservatively designed. Wolverine shifters getting rage powers is really neat. Snake shifters not getting their poison until level 15 and only on AoOs is on the other hand ridiculous.
Being worried about the implications and erring on the side of caution seems to be a really common theme with the Shifter unfortunately, but that doesn't make the core ideas necessarily bad.
Shifter's shifting should be its own defined and discrete from Druid/Beast Shape/Hunter abilities. It should focus on different archetypal aspects and then have modular parts. While what we have is close it is a washed down not thought out version of what it should be.
I would like to see some more interesting mechanics. You can have a class designed to be simple and still make it have interesting interactions.
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Really I think the biggest missed opportunity is the lack of any way to combine major aspects, since if you can turn into a bear and an owl, why not let us turn into a owlish bear or a tiger-snake or a monkey-shark?
It seems like the best reason to keep major aspects limited is so you can have players actually able to combine things in a way that regular wild-shape can't manage. I wonder if that was that was the original plan, but it ended up very complicated (like the Harrowed Medium).
I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard when the Ultimate Wilderness Hero Lab files will be updated with the changes to the Shifter?
Really I think the biggest missed opportunity is the lack of any way to combine major aspects, since if you can turn into a bear and an owl, why not let us turn into a owlish bear or a tiger-snake or a monkey-shark?
It seems like the best reason to keep major aspects limited is so you can have players actually able to combine things in a way that regular wild-shape can't manage. I wonder if that was that was the original plan, but it ended up very complicated (like the Harrowed Medium).
This is the one change I'd really like to see added to the shifter. It would give them a specialized form of wild shape that has abilities beyond what a druid has and builds on the chimeric vibe teh shifter has going on.
I'd also really like to see a dragon shifter archetype in a future product like the fiendish shifter archetype.
PK -- Between LWD having their hands full with HLO and the Shifter not being in a 'final form' it'll probably be a bit before it's patched on HLC.
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As it stands, I actually like the idea behind aspects and wild shape. Instead of having everything, you specialize in one particular animal, going so far as to do things with it that a druid could not. You even get to make those itirative attacks with them now! With the way they specialize in specific animal forms over having a broad spectrum, it almost makes me want to alter that old comparison that gets used.
Instead of "Shifters are to Druids as Paladins are to Clerics" I'd almost want to go with "Shifters are to Druids as Sorcerers are to Wizards."
{. . .}
This would be cool, but taken literally, it would be something different from the Shifter, instead being a new d8, 3/4 BAB, 9/9 spontaneous casting(*) class. Not a bad idea, but better to debug the actual full BAB non-casting Shifter first.
(*)Really should be d6, 1/2 BAB if you're going to be a 9/9 caster, or else be a 6/9 caster, but that Sacred Cow escaped the barn long ago.
Forcing pre-defined aspects does nothing but hurt the versatility of the class, and restricting their Wild Shape to Beast Shape II does nothing but hurt the overall power of the class.
It's not enough to just give the Shifter the full version of Wild Shape. It needs an expanded Wild Shape, BEYOND what the Druid gets. Otherwise, why play this class over a Druid?
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Pre-Defined Aspects gives the class an Identity, instead of just being a Druid/Feral Hunter/Beast Shape spell line using Caster, Clone. It also gives them things you Can't Even Get w/ those base animals using Regular Wildshape. I can give you examples from every single one of the Aspects, if you'd like.
Edit1: What I'd argue we need, is Yes Definitely Chimeric Major Forms, BUT probably regular old wild shape WITH the Major Aspects on Top.... Then you'd be able to have the versatility that some want, and the more DEFINED Shifting Other's would like to keep as a defining feature of the Shifter.
Edit2: Though I'd also like to keep the uses per day of our Current Wild Shape after the Update FAQs.
Edit3: I'd also argue against things like Elementals, Plants, Magical Beasts, and maybe Vermin (I Love Vermin, really wish we had an archetype for them). Let those be the business of Archetypes, the Base Shifter is about Animals.
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Personally I don't mind the Aspects thematically, since like others have said it gives the potential for some cool customization... though they didn't deliver on that as much as I'd have liked. The biggest complaints I have with it are:
1) You don't get *nearly* enough Aspects. You get 5. At level 20. I mean come on. That should've been an every other level thing.
2) Minor Aspects. I feel the specific reasons have been pretty well stated, but just for clarity: Duration, Bonus Type, and how situational they are means most of them are straight up useless currently. If it's going to be a minute per level, it needs to be something worth using for a minute per level, not something that either is replaced by a permanent magic item that everyone will have or something that by the time you know you need it... it's too late to use it (worst offender here would have to be Mouse... because come on, how often do you know you're going to be needing (Improved) Evasion in the next minute, though special mention to Deinonychus and the frequently-hard-to-time-accurately Initiative bonus.)
3) Using BS2 (or the Beast Shape line in general TBH) kinda screws over Small and Medium forms, since they get a lesser bonus (Medium vs Large has one less AC bonus and of course half the bonus to Attack and Damage, Small vs Tiny misses out on 2 points of AC (though changing the stats only fixes 1 point of that ^.^; ) at the cost of a single point of attack/damage if they're even Strength based, in fact gaining attack if they have Finesse which Small probably wants anyways) than the Large/Tiny forms do. I think for my home games I'm just going to rule that Medium and Small use the Large and Tiny stat changes respectively.
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I agree you don't get aspects often enough and too many bonuses of the minor forms are too situational or just straight replaced by a magic item dropped by an enemy. Rethinking it maybe minor and major aspects should be combined and turned into a much more fleshed out packages to justify how infrequently you get them. Maybe have these aspects last all day? I still like the idea of aspects being something that modifies your base form instead of being a substitute for wild shape. Kind of like a "template" you can apply to yourself or you wild shaped form to gain advantages.
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I would prefer the Shifter's wild shape functioned as the druid's wild shape but limited to animal and vermin forms with aspects being abilities/traits/natural attacks/defenses/senses from animals and vermin that can be added to any form including your base form. Then we could have archetypes that focus on a creature type/subtype like dragons, fey, giants, elementals, monstrous humanoids, etc.
I 100% agree that Minor Aspects Need Much longer durations, minutes per day makes it rather pointless on a lot of them. As for the Needing more Aspects, I can totally get behind that, maybe every Odd level, that'd actually fill the currently empty 7th, 13th, & 17th levels, give us more versatility amongst our Wild Shaped forms, and we can only use a Max of 5 Aspects at a time, and that's at 20. Its also not like the Feral Hunter doesn't already get that many Minor Aspects (and our Aspects are about the same as theirs) and Permanently, till canceled, for one of them at a time.
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Forcing pre-defined aspects does nothing but hurt the versatility of the class
Disagree. Pre-defined aspects let you give the class power and options that you can't with a generic shapechanging spells that are intentionally limited. Custom abilities let you do things you could never get away with using more generic ones.
The problem isn't conceptual, it's in the execution. Most of the aspects, and to a lesser extent the class as a whole, are just too conservatively put together.
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Yeah, I actually vastly prefer polymorph effects in general having pre-defined (if conceptually versatile) options than it being 'pick an entry in the bestiary'.
It's less apparent with beast shape, but the Monstrous Physique spells are this gross choice of obscure creatures that really should be run by the GM before you even try using them.
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It's less apparent with beast shape, but the Monstrous Physique spells are this gross choice of obscure creatures that really should be run by the GM before you even try using them.
I feel like a reasonable house rule would be "you have to be able to identify one of these if you saw them, taking 10 on your appropriate knowledge roll, before you can transform into one".
Since "I don't know it when I see it, but I can be one sometimes" is kind of an absurd position.
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It's less apparent with beast shape, but the Monstrous Physique spells are this gross choice of obscure creatures that really should be run by the GM before you even try using them.I feel like a reasonable house rule would be "you have to be able to identify one of these if you saw them, taking 10 on your appropriate knowledge roll, before you can transform into one".
Since "I don't know it when I see it, but I can be one sometimes" is kind of an absurd position.
For me, this more likely a matter of research and study than a 'happen to know' one. Anyone that plans to use and leverage the ability to shift their forms is most likely motivated to figure out what creatures can best do that for them. IMO, they are more likely to know creatures that have unusual abilities than creatures that have abilities like dozens of other creatures.
So if knowledge rolls where required, I expect the caster to head to the best library they know of and make a take 20 check and/or visit a sage to make the check for them. I know I'd have a 'bestiary' filled with the forms I'd want to take WELL before I had the spell that allowed me to take the form.
It would be cool to get druid wild shape turning into any animal you could based on what level wild shape(and maybe a knowledge nature check if the animal is not normal for the area/terrain your in). But each aspect would grant a list of additional abilities you could add to your current form.
example for snake aspect you could choose from natural attack( poisonous bite or bite+grab+constrict), mobility (climb speed or swim speed), senses(low-light vision or scent), or skill bonus +2 to +6(acrobatics, escape artist, perception, or stealth).
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For me, this more likely a matter of research and study than a 'happen to know' one. Anyone that plans to use and leverage the ability to shift their forms is most likely motivated to figure out what creatures can best do that for them. IMO, they are more likely to know creatures that have unusual abilities than creatures that have abilities like dozens of other creatures.
So if knowledge rolls where required, I expect the caster to head to the best library they know of and make a take 20 check and/or visit a sage to make the check for them. I know I'd have a 'bestiary' filled with the forms I'd want to take WELL before I had the spell that allowed me to take the form.
I feel like "being able to transform into one" requires a more intuitive understanding of the thing than "cramming for the test" as it were can provide. I'm more inclined to give an okay to "I spent time observing one" but not "I read a book about it."
I'm not sure how a Druid would know enough about a magical beast that does not appear on a continent the druid has visited (not many Calikangs outside the Mana Wastes) to figure "I should go read a book on those so I can transform into one." Like assuredly there are monsters people without considerable knowledge scores simply have never heard of.
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This also plays into a different issue. Shifter is already pretty MAD as it is, and essentially forcing yet another AD into the class is not going to do it any favors.. (Intelligence for boosting Identification, in case people were wondering what the new AD would be)
Why is there a resistance to having the 'massive multi-function Swiss Army Knife' Wild Shape as originally written for Druid?
Could it be improved to keep that versatility?
If so, how, with an economy of words?
Basically by using the original wild shape BUT adding a small section to it (or just to Aspects instead) about how you can use the Major Aspect Forms (which are stronger than their base wild shape forms), and then write in the current FAQed version of the Uses Per Day for them in place of the older version's.
And if doing the whole Beast Shape 1, Beast Shape 2, and Beast Shape 3 tiering that the Druid does, the Large (and Tiny for Mouse) Major forms could start out as Medium(/Small) like the Owl does.
I'm not sure how a Druid would know enough about a magical beast that does not appear on a continent the druid has visited (not many Calikangs outside the Mana Wastes) to figure "I should go read a book on those so I can transform into one." Like assuredly there are monsters people without considerable knowledge scores simply have never heard of.
Well think, about how long does it take when a new bestiary comes out for guides to be updated with the new best forms to take? Like once a Druid or two know of a creature I'd imagine that info would be readily and fairly quickly dispersed. In druid school you're taught about wildshape and what some of the best forms currently known are. Good useful information spreads really fast.
I feel like "being able to transform into one" requires a more intuitive understanding of the thing than "cramming for the test" as it were can provide. I'm more inclined to give an okay to "I spent time observing one" but not "I read a book about it."
I'm not sure how a Druid would know enough about a magical beast that does not appear on a continent the druid has visited (not many Calikangs outside the Mana Wastes) to figure "I should go read a book on those so I can transform into one." Like assuredly there are monsters people without considerable knowledge scores simply have never heard of.
We're talking about a profession that can change shapes as a class ability, including flying forms, so I don't see much of an issue with finding either an example of what you want or finding someone from the 'druid grapevine' that "spent time observing one" and can change while you watch, much like trading spells but in this case trading forms. If you go this route, the "I read a book about it" lets you know it exists and you can do the leg work.
"Like assuredly there are monsters people without considerable knowledge scores simply have never heard of": Those are the type of people that write books and become sages... You know, the things less smart people turn to for info... Add to that the fact that a druid that can turn into a bird 24 hours/day can overland travel quite well and end up in whatever territory they wish: if higher level druids exist, people with knowledge of forms in different areas should exist that can easily travel around.
"not many Calikangs outside the Mana Wastes": I bet there are MORE people that have been there and can then change their shape into one. 'Hey, you can cast alter self? Have any cool shapes you know? I can be a sewer troll, what about you?'... If we assume spellcasting can be bought and trading/buying spells is possible, why are forms off limits?
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I'm very much in favor of giving Shifter Wildshape directly from the Druid class. Aspects are too restrictive, too few and far between, too weirdly balanced and too boring. If someone wants to play a narrowly focused Shifter, there should be an archetype that gives some benefit for locking in certain forms. After copying and pasting Wild Shape, then they can give Shifters some innovative features.
I'd love to see a feature that gives you a list of effects you can apply to a form when you shift into it, and you can pick and choose what gets added to that list for some actual character build choices. For example, choose the bonus DR, bonus natural armor, and fast healing options to play tanky, or choose the bleed, ability drain and sneak attack options to play a rogue-type.
There are so many options for this class, hyper focusing on what the class can or can't shift into is such a waste of time. We've barely scratched the surface of what the class could be. Give it the tried and true Wild Shape and focus on doing something *new* with the rest of the class.
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I'd love to see a feature that gives you a list of effects you can apply to a form when you shift into it, and you can pick and choose what gets added to that list for some actual character build choices. For example, choose the bonus DR, bonus natural armor, and fast healing options to play tanky, or choose the bleed, ability drain and sneak attack options to play a rogue-type.
Funny enough I did a complete redesign of the Shifter just for fun that gave the shifter Wild Shape as per the Druid, ditched the Aspects, and instead allowed you to pick and choose Universal Monster Abilities to apply to your form. Some of them improved over time, getting better as you level while others had a level requirement. Overall to my surprise the word count for the redesign turned out to be less then the current Shifter.
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I noticed the forums have gone through some recent changes and hyperlinks are differentiated much from the other text and since I can't go back and edit a old post so here's the bolded link to the Shifter Doc indicating all the shifter changes. I've corrected a few things:
Link: Updated Shifter with all the errata.
I'd love to see a feature that gives you a list of effects you can apply to a form when you shift into it, and you can pick and choose what gets added to that list for some actual character build choices. For example, choose the bonus DR, bonus natural armor, and fast healing options to play tanky, or choose the bleed, ability drain and sneak attack options to play a rogue-type.
HA! I updated it to match the current Shifter errata and it STILL has a smaller word count even with Druid Wild Shape.
Shifter Fan Revision With Universal Monster Abilities.
I want the Shifter Fan Revision to become the official revision . . .
. . . But if you are going to add archetypes to this, leave the Oozemorph for a splatbook . . . .
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I still believe that the Base Shifter Should NOT have Plant and Elemental Shapeshifting, those should honestly be saved for Archetypes.... The Base Shifter is about shapeshifting into animals, and Hopefully chimeric animals.
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I agree, the base shifter shouldn't have plant and elemental wildshape. I would prefer to add vermin forms since technically they are actually animals despite the different creature type. Also you left out the at will wild shape and aspects at level 20. But other then that I like it.
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I still believe that the Base Shifter Should NOT have Plant and Elemental Shapeshifting, those should honestly be saved for Archetypes.... The Base Shifter is about shapeshifting into animals, and Hopefully chimeric animals.
This is my feeling as well.
I agree, the base shifter shouldn't have plant and elemental wildshape. I would prefer to add vermin forms since technically they are actually animals despite the different creature type.
I agree plant don't really fit the theme of the Shifter and Vermin should probably be included, but I think Elemental should stay. If you just let it include Animals then Wild Shape won't improve past 8th level. Personally I think the Shifter's Wild Shape should be Animals, Elementals, and Magical Beasts. So basically Beast Shape 1-4, Elemental Body 1-4, and Magical Beast Shape. It fits more of a martial theme of the Shifter, and this way the Shifter gets combat variety and can actually turn into a Chimera.
Also you left out the at will wild shape and aspects at level 20. But other then that I like it.
You talking about my fan revision? I deliberately left off a time limit on the aspects and like the original Wild Shape text of the Druid I noted that Wild Shape becomes at will at 20th level. Something that Shifter should have done so as to avoid excessive re-writes to future archtypes. They should disengage wild shape duration from the Final Aspect in the errata otherwise you'll have to note all over again if a Shifter can Wild Shape at will whenever they change how aspects work.
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IMO....Archetypes are better suited for things like elemental and plant forms....
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Yeah, archetypes are better suited for elemental and plant forms but magical beast for the base shifter (with animals and vermin) would make sense at the mid to high levels.
Oops, my bad, I didn't see that part in your revision;)
I agree Vermin and Magical Beasts would be great forms for the Base Shifter to replace the Plant and Elemental Forms. If the base Shifter were to gain elemental forms, there'd honestly be no point in there being an Elemental Shifter Archetype which there Already Is One, so you're destroying an Already Existent Archetype to include Elemental Forms in the Base Shifter....
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IMO....Archetypes are better suited for things like elemental and plant forms....
We would first need an elemental shifter that actually wants to spend a lot of time as an elemental. Sure, it's a lot better now that you can make iterative attacks with your slams, but you're still giving up a lot of damage when you wild shape.
[color=Green]Okay, that's a spot that I hadn't considered, and it would be very cool if Wild Shape went Animals/Beasts --> Vermin --> Magical Beasts for ability progression, then dramatically increased the capability of each of those forms for subsequent improvements/dead levels.[/color]
It'd give the 'right' kind of flexibility while maintaining the integrity of other Archetypes (and give them a foundation for their 'swap-outs')