The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 4 of the War for the Crown Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
Loving the read so far, but because I know at least one of my player's is absolutely going to ask the question since this is THE Lion Blades book: What's Dominicus Rell been doing all this time? Prior to getting this book I had a very strong suspicion that he would be the "ruthless spymaster" mentioned in the summary blurb, owing to his loyalty to Stavian III and the fact that he's generally been the most talked about Lion Blade in the lore. And yet this is not the case.
Page 17 mentions something and then says "See page 49" - I had to go take a look immediately, and this was a jaw-dropper. Seriously, I love this plot twist!
I've got a couple of questions. First off, does Cyricus accompany the PC's from their rendezvous to Zimar? Second if he does, could he be used as a plot device to help the PC's get into the city, as they or at least some of them pose as Sentinals and he as their prisoner. It didn't really elaborate on this and I just know that some player with come up with that plan or something like it. LOL!
Re: Cyricus; Are his stats referenced anywhere? Every other NPC seems to reference Villain Codex, Gamemaster Guide, etc. I expect it will be helpful to know some of Cyricus' skill modifiers (stealth, disguise, etc) whether for himself to aid another.
No, it just gives a short description of him and his career as a smuggler.
I'm really curious what Eutropia does with Carrius during this adventure. Is he just getting out of his addled state the entire time?
I'm really curious what Eutropia does with Carrius during this adventure. Is he just getting out of his addled state the entire time?
Just re-read Eutropia's debriefing and it looks like Carrius is just recuperating. He's "younger" than Eutropia now so she could definitely still be the new ruler, but I have to assume that players will be REALLY curious about the resurrected prince. This isn't addressed at all in this book. Might be in later books, but this feels like an oversight.
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His agents will probably still release the planned information, because even if he willingly gives up he's still arrested by Eutropia for his crimes of conspiring against Taldoran citizens and thus triggers the terms of the fail-safe. Since his agents likely won't have the whole story, they'll just pull the trigger and disseminate the information.
Thing is, Pythareus specifically refuses to surrender if he is convinced to give up, book pretty much says "Thats beyond scope of this adventure though probably not impossible to arrange". Like, its pretty much alternate solution to your mission, that said, evidence would probably make him being eventually arrested by someone else.
I've got a couple of questions. First off, does Cyricus accompany the PC's from their rendezvous to Zimar? Second if he does, could he be used as a plot device to help the PC's get into the city, as they or at least some of them pose as Sentinals and he as their prisoner. It didn't really elaborate on this and I just know that some player with come up with that plan or something like it. LOL!
There is also a possibility for the PCs to, by design or accident, trick Milon Jeroth into thinking they are allies/"useful pawns".
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... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"
... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"
Since the PC's will meet Stavian at the end of this book and presumably won't have Carrius with them at the time, I'm assuming this will be covered in the next book.
... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"Since the PC's will meet Stavian at the end of this book and presumably won't have Carrius with them at the time, I'm assuming this will be covered in the next book.
They don't have Eutropia with them either, at that one is kinda covered.
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My thinking RE: family reunion is that if Stavian is brought back to his daughter, she wouldn't show him to Carrius, not wanting the boy to see his father in such an awful state.
And if they did meet, Stavian is so far gone that he might just accuse Carrius of being an impostor or a vision, or he conveniently forgets that Carrius was ever dead, or that he ever had a son... I'd likely have him switch between all of these within a few minutes. Given his dementia, I wouldn't expect the reunion to serve much of a purpose other than further emphasize to the players how unfit Stavian is to be put in charge of anything.
That said, I see no reason not to use that opportunity to reveal the fact that Stavian did kill his son (perhaps Carrius seeing his father would remind him of the incident). At least I don't think there's a reason to hide that detail at this point in the story.
My thinking RE: family reunion is that if Stavian is brought back to his daughter, she wouldn't show him to Carrius, not wanting the boy to see his father in such an awful state.
And if they did meet, Stavian is so far gone that he might just accuse Carrius of being an impostor or a vision, or he conveniently forgets that Carrius was ever dead, or that he ever had a son... I'd likely have him switch between all of these within a few minutes. Given his dementia, I wouldn't expect the reunion to serve much of a purpose other than further emphasize to the players how unfit Stavian is to be put in charge of anything.
That said, I see no reason not to use that opportunity to reveal the fact that Stavian did kill his son (perhaps Carrius seeing his father would remind him of the incident). At least I don't think there's a reason to hide that detail at this point in the story.
Oooh, that's so dramatic and heart-wrenching! I love it!
Is it me, or is encounter H3 in the fortress courtyard all sorts of screwed up?
A sorcerer, who for some reason has a pearl of power, elemental body IIing into an air elemental, then flying up and using a bow?
Yes? What's wrong with that?
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Pearls of power only work for prepared spellcasters.
Changing into an elemental causes all equipment to merge into your body.
This could be got around by drawing his bow and quiver and laying them on the floor before changing, then picking them back up and reslinging the quiver before taking off. But that's a lot of rounds to be, effectively, doing nothing in a fight, and will probably make him a sitting target.
Then you run into the issue about whether elemental actually have hands...
Oh, I thought you were questioning the tactics of a mid level spellcaster choosing a weak attack over effective tactics.
I believe there have been examples of elementals using weapons and armor, and there is no reason to believe that they don't have hands. According to tactics he has already cast the spell so he has already dropped what he needed to and picked it back up.
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So the Vault and Chain are fascinating - Abadaran hardliners that adhere to a Randian prosperity doctrine. They also provide a stark contrast to the Tare mentioned in Crownfall - Abadaran reformers who believe Taldan law to be contrary to Abadar's laws. It's a great opportunity to explore what people really connect to in the Abadaran faith.
I'm only really having to contemplate this because one of my PCs is a LE cleric of Abadar, and is more likely to side with the V&C than the Tare.
I plan on introducing the V&C early on - maybe proselytizing in the Gray Market during the week of the Exaltation Gala. But the schism of the faith will be important enough to Abadaran PCs that I think springing it in book 4 is a bit late.
My current plan is to have my Abadaran cleric run into Veneranda Cain (paladin mentioned in the Oppara Gazetteer) arguing with Palo Iovinus about Abadaran doctrine in the Cathedral of Coins.
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While that is technically true, the spell description makes a few interesting distinctions. First, it says "You contact your deity–or agents thereof," implying that there's no way to be 100% ceetain you're talking to Abadar himself, or a herald, or an overworked kolyarut in an Axis call center.
Secondly, this line opens up a whole dimension of ambiguity: "The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes." So even if you do get Abadar himself, gods are powerful and inscrutable. It might be the will of Abadar to prop up both sides and see which one "wins" culturally on various worlds throughout the multiverse - sort of like breeding different strains of flowers in a garden.
And third, I'm willing to bet lawful scholars in Golarion aren't that different from our world, where even a direct passage in a holy text can be interpreted in almost any way depending on the readers philosophical views. As far as this Abadarn split goes, its easy enough to emphasize one element of doctrine over another - if there weren't room for personal interpretation, there wouldn't be such a wide alignment web for each deity. LG, LN, and LE can all receive spells from Abadar.
Just my views on the matter. I've had several "religious debates" at the table over the years, as I'm sure most GMs have, and this is just the framework I've settled on for making sense of the data in my games.
One traditional trouble with religious schismatics in 3.x is that they can ask their god directly for his preference.
Starting at level 9 a Cleric can cast Commune and simply ask Abadar which policy he prefers. There really isn't any plausible answer he can give that preserves the schism.
What Blue Eyed Devil said, plus deities have a very, very, VERY big picture view. Their answers can only be understood by the mortal mind as riddles and metaphor. For Abadar, I imagine his answers to questions are a combination of Immanuel Kant, mathematical proofs, Adam Smith, and Confucius.
Though for the Ascended deities (Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, and Iomedae) I make their answers a bit more understandable and grounded.
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Clearly Abadar is a shrewd businessgod who hedges his bets with a highly diversified portfolio. After all, many different philosophies have yielded prosperous and stable civilizations, both Good and Evil. Why would he put all his eggs in one basket? That's just bad business sense.
Now as for settling disputes? I imagine Abadar is the type to be fairly Darwinian and allow all sides have a battle of merit, rather than give a definitive answer himself. In the short term, the one most capable of fitting the needs of their society will win out. In the long term, the ruling party will either adapt with the times or be replaced by a better solution. Given that, there is little reason for him to directly interfere unless a schism outright threatens the very concept of civilization.
It wouldn't surprise me if most of his clerics had a certain understanding of this process, which is why while they may disagree, they can still reconcile the fact that at the end of the day, all of them have the best interests of civilization and society at heart. It's just a question of how to go about it, which is something not even a god would necessarily be able to answer definitively.
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or something to do with PF2.
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Or something to do with PF2.There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.
Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.Or something to do with PF2.There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.
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Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.Or something to do with PF2.There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
*shrugs* Or maybe the author slipped up and thought of Streetwise or Urban instead of Local, not that hard. And also, to my knowledge Mikko isn't involved with making the Playtest.
*shrugs* Or maybe the author slipped up and thought of Streetwise or Urban instead of Local, not that hard. And also, to my knowledge Mikko isn't involved with making the Playtest.Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.Or something to do with PF2.There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or could be from another system.
Strange how the Hag's Curse trap doesn't allow a fort AND a will save as per the usual rules.
Does anyone have a good map for the court of filth and Honey Kunefee?
I've been writing up session summaries for my players:
- https://wordpress.com/post/d20tabletalk.wordpress.com/294 - half way through is a picture of a map I created for Honey Kunefe when they fight Milon.
- https://wordpress.com/post/d20tabletalk.wordpress.com/342 - 3/4 of the way down is a picture of my party talking to Gulreesh and I drew a map. I liked this one because I had different heights for the water so the party didn't have to swim, but they were 3 feet deep in muck at the very least. Gotta see if I can give someone a disease, although catching filth fever was nigh impossible for them at that point.
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So my players are wading into this adventure pretty heavily so far and with some nudging from me have gone down the path of one of them portraying Milon Jeroth. They have managed to bring all of the various enemy spy groups under their wings and seem pretty eager to spend the weeks it's going to take to assassinate or 'discourage' members of the Pillar's defenses.
My questions so far are (some of these things might be found in the book but I can't find them yet):
Qan Dismaal and the Seven Forms of Sin can intimidate or kill members of the Vault and Chain.
What effect does this have on the defenses on the Pillar? It says that they can directly assassinate Iovinus but not what they can do to the rank and file.
What would my fellow DMs rule happens once the operation is undertaken and Pytharreus is brought down?
I imagine Qan Dismaal sitting put but the Sisters at Sweet Dreams would probably abscond... and the Waterhill Manor Rakshasas going on alert and perhaps just packing and preparing to leave when Jeroth 'tells' them to.
Just looking for any ideas. Thank you for any help.
I have a situation coming up in my wotc game that I wanted to see if any other gm has encountered involving the infiltration of Zimar.
By this point the party is well known and expected to use disguises to enter and operate inside the city, which shouldn't be to hard for all of my group except one PC.
One of players has built his build around his large sized lion animal companion. I am struggling to see how any guard is going to let this armored beast into the city, let alone one that matches the description of one of Eutropa's assassins.
I don't want to punish the player by having the companion not available pretty much all book, but I am not seeing a way to have them operate in the city without drawing attention when they have a 600 lb lion with them everywhere they go.
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The situation at the gate isn't covered in a lot of detail, so you've got some freedom. As a GM I'd say it's important to do what you're thinking and let the big cat get around. Doesn't mean you can't have some fun with it, though.
A guard may not let it into the city but... said guard could probably be bribed into letting a wagon full of hay or a cart full of Jeggare wine in.
Alternately, a well-timed invisibility could help get the cat through the door even if it doesn't stay invisible for long. Each diplomacy check takes a minute, so... can the party diplomacize their way through the gate before the kitty pops back into view? That could be an interesting, self-inflicted "clock."
After that, what does the party do? What does the lion's owner do, specifically? Well, there are all sorts of reasons a wagon might be in the streets. Maybe he's a "food truck" vendor, 'Lion's Lunchmeats.' "Sorry, we're closed." "But it's noon and the hours said you're open between dawn and dusk!" "WE'RE CLOSED."
Maybe the lion just hides in the hay wagon all adventure. Eventually a fight happens, the authorities figure it out, and for the remainder of the scenario all hay wagons are searched for signs of big cats, which doesn't bother the PC much because they just bought a "food truck".
Maybe the party primarily sneaks around at night, and small children everywhere tell their parents about this lion they saw, but none of the adults believe the kids?
Maybe the PC makes friends with an entire tavern of people by buying rounds constantly, and in return this crowd of people surrounds the PCs and escorts them from place to place, shielding the lion from view.
Lions are very Taldan--maybe he can put it on a cart and drape a cloth over it. Tell it not to move. "What's under the cloth?" "A statue I'm working on for the High Strategos! No, don't look underneath! It's obviously a lion, but I've been sworn to secrecy--no one shall see it before Pythareus does!" "Did it... did it just move?" "It's on a wagon. Of course it moves." "No, I mean..." (make intimidate check)
Don't make any of it too big a deal--you don't want to have this be an every-round, every-fight, every-movement thing that drives the player nuts IMO. But you can have it pop up once or twice a session as something fun to distract the party with, and you do need to deal with it in some way. I think both you and the player have a lot of options to make it work.
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Assuming that this character is a druid ranger or hunter, make sure that they have access to the carry companion spell.
Carry CompanionSource Knights of the Inner Sea pg. 28
School transmutation; Level arcanist 2, druid 2, hunter 2, paladin 2, ranger 2, redmantisassassin 2, sorcerer 2, witch 2, wizard 2CastingCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a pinch of sand or limestone dust)EffectRange touch
Target one willing creature touched
Duration permanent; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DescriptionYou touch an animal or magical beast that has a helpful attitude toward you, instantly transforming the creature into a miniature figurine of stone, small enough to fit into the palm of your hand. Creatures with an attitude of less than helpful will not tolerate this spell, and it automatically fails to work on them. An intelligent animal or magical beast must be a willing subject in order for this spell to take effect. Any items that the creature wears (such as a harness or saddle) or carries (such as those stowed in saddlebags) are transformed along with the creature.
While miniaturized, the creature is under an effect similar to that of a flesh to stone spell: It is mindless and inert, and does not seem alive when viewed with spells like deathwatch. However, you may return the creature to its normal form at any time simply by placing the figurine on the ground, touching it, and uttering a word of command. Otherwise, the creature remains in miniature form unless the spell is broken, such as by dispel magic or stronger magic. Unlike a flesh to stone spell, a creature affected by carry companion is unaffected by stone to flesh. If the miniature figurine is broken or damaged, the creature (if returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities.
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So I noticed that, in Abadar's Pillar, h37 is described as having two Tophets in it.
The tricky part of this is that h37 is basically a 10 by 10 room, and Tophets are large creatures.
How did other people who have run this bit resolve this?
This man raises an excellent question. Even with the adjustment of 1square = 10ft this room is inexplicably tiny.
Moving them into the other room raises problems with where to fight Avenna. What's the solutions other have ran? I would hate to have a cramped clogged fight where half the party is stuck on the stairs and unable to so much as see combat.