4 - City in the Lion's Eye (GM Reference)


War for the Crown


The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.

This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 4 of the War for the Crown Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Loving the read so far, but because I know at least one of my player's is absolutely going to ask the question since this is THE Lion Blades book: What's Dominicus Rell been doing all this time? Prior to getting this book I had a very strong suspicion that he would be the "ruthless spymaster" mentioned in the summary blurb, owing to his loyalty to Stavian III and the fact that he's generally been the most talked about Lion Blade in the lore. And yet this is not the case.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Page 17 mentions something and then says "See page 49" - I had to go take a look immediately, and this was a jaw-dropper. Seriously, I love this plot twist!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've got a couple of questions. First off, does Cyricus accompany the PC's from their rendezvous to Zimar? Second if he does, could he be used as a plot device to help the PC's get into the city, as they or at least some of them pose as Sentinals and he as their prisoner. It didn't really elaborate on this and I just know that some player with come up with that plan or something like it. LOL!


Re: Cyricus; Are his stats referenced anywhere? Every other NPC seems to reference Villain Codex, Gamemaster Guide, etc. I expect it will be helpful to know some of Cyricus' skill modifiers (stealth, disguise, etc) whether for himself to aid another.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No, it just gives a short description of him and his career as a smuggler.

Dark Archive

So something I'm confused about: If party uses verbal duel to convince Pytharus to give up his claim on throne, does his allies still release his fail safe plan to take Stavians down with him?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

His agents will probably still release the planned information, because even if he willingly gives up he's still arrested by Eutropia for his crimes of conspiring against Taldoran citizens and thus triggers the terms of the fail-safe. Since his agents likely won't have the whole story, they'll just pull the trigger and disseminate the information.


I'm really curious what Eutropia does with Carrius during this adventure. Is he just getting out of his addled state the entire time?


OmegaZ wrote:
I'm really curious what Eutropia does with Carrius during this adventure. Is he just getting out of his addled state the entire time?

Just re-read Eutropia's debriefing and it looks like Carrius is just recuperating. He's "younger" than Eutropia now so she could definitely still be the new ruler, but I have to assume that players will be REALLY curious about the resurrected prince. This isn't addressed at all in this book. Might be in later books, but this feels like an oversight.

Dark Archive

Nergalitos wrote:
His agents will probably still release the planned information, because even if he willingly gives up he's still arrested by Eutropia for his crimes of conspiring against Taldoran citizens and thus triggers the terms of the fail-safe. Since his agents likely won't have the whole story, they'll just pull the trigger and disseminate the information.

Thing is, Pythareus specifically refuses to surrender if he is convinced to give up, book pretty much says "Thats beyond scope of this adventure though probably not impossible to arrange". Like, its pretty much alternate solution to your mission, that said, evidence would probably make him being eventually arrested by someone else.


theLegend76 wrote:
I've got a couple of questions. First off, does Cyricus accompany the PC's from their rendezvous to Zimar? Second if he does, could he be used as a plot device to help the PC's get into the city, as they or at least some of them pose as Sentinals and he as their prisoner. It didn't really elaborate on this and I just know that some player with come up with that plan or something like it. LOL!

There is also a possibility for the PCs to, by design or accident, trick Milon Jeroth into thinking they are allies/"useful pawns".


1 person marked this as a favorite.

... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think there are a few naming mistakes in this one. Stavian III is called Stavian II a few times, and the Vault and Chain Templars are sometimes called Golden Templars. In the adventure, Iovinus title is "Enumerator", but in the backmatter he is Archbanker.


Souls At War wrote:
... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"

Since the PC's will meet Stavian at the end of this book and presumably won't have Carrius with them at the time, I'm assuming this will be covered in the next book.


OmegaZ wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
... come to think of it, also lack a "what if Stavian and Carrius meet?"
Since the PC's will meet Stavian at the end of this book and presumably won't have Carrius with them at the time, I'm assuming this will be covered in the next book.

They don't have Eutropia with them either, at that one is kinda covered.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My thinking RE: family reunion is that if Stavian is brought back to his daughter, she wouldn't show him to Carrius, not wanting the boy to see his father in such an awful state.

And if they did meet, Stavian is so far gone that he might just accuse Carrius of being an impostor or a vision, or he conveniently forgets that Carrius was ever dead, or that he ever had a son... I'd likely have him switch between all of these within a few minutes. Given his dementia, I wouldn't expect the reunion to serve much of a purpose other than further emphasize to the players how unfit Stavian is to be put in charge of anything.

That said, I see no reason not to use that opportunity to reveal the fact that Stavian did kill his son (perhaps Carrius seeing his father would remind him of the incident). At least I don't think there's a reason to hide that detail at this point in the story.


Trichotome wrote:

My thinking RE: family reunion is that if Stavian is brought back to his daughter, she wouldn't show him to Carrius, not wanting the boy to see his father in such an awful state.

And if they did meet, Stavian is so far gone that he might just accuse Carrius of being an impostor or a vision, or he conveniently forgets that Carrius was ever dead, or that he ever had a son... I'd likely have him switch between all of these within a few minutes. Given his dementia, I wouldn't expect the reunion to serve much of a purpose other than further emphasize to the players how unfit Stavian is to be put in charge of anything.

That said, I see no reason not to use that opportunity to reveal the fact that Stavian did kill his son (perhaps Carrius seeing his father would remind him of the incident). At least I don't think there's a reason to hide that detail at this point in the story.

Oooh, that's so dramatic and heart-wrenching! I love it!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Is it me, or is encounter H3 in the fortress courtyard all sorts of screwed up?

A sorcerer, who for some reason has a pearl of power, elemental body IIing into an air elemental, then flying up and using a bow?


Darrell Impey UK wrote:

Is it me, or is encounter H3 in the fortress courtyard all sorts of screwed up?

A sorcerer, who for some reason has a pearl of power, elemental body IIing into an air elemental, then flying up and using a bow?

Yes? What's wrong with that?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pearls of power only work for prepared spellcasters.
Changing into an elemental causes all equipment to merge into your body.
This could be got around by drawing his bow and quiver and laying them on the floor before changing, then picking them back up and reslinging the quiver before taking off. But that's a lot of rounds to be, effectively, doing nothing in a fight, and will probably make him a sitting target.
Then you run into the issue about whether elemental actually have hands...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh, I thought you were questioning the tactics of a mid level spellcaster choosing a weak attack over effective tactics.

I believe there have been examples of elementals using weapons and armor, and there is no reason to believe that they don't have hands. According to tactics he has already cast the spell so he has already dropped what he needed to and picked it back up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So the Vault and Chain are fascinating - Abadaran hardliners that adhere to a Randian prosperity doctrine. They also provide a stark contrast to the Tare mentioned in Crownfall - Abadaran reformers who believe Taldan law to be contrary to Abadar's laws. It's a great opportunity to explore what people really connect to in the Abadaran faith.

I'm only really having to contemplate this because one of my PCs is a LE cleric of Abadar, and is more likely to side with the V&C than the Tare.

I plan on introducing the V&C early on - maybe proselytizing in the Gray Market during the week of the Exaltation Gala. But the schism of the faith will be important enough to Abadaran PCs that I think springing it in book 4 is a bit late.

My current plan is to have my Abadaran cleric run into Veneranda Cain (paladin mentioned in the Oppara Gazetteer) arguing with Palo Iovinus about Abadaran doctrine in the Cathedral of Coins.


One traditional trouble with religious schismatics in 3.x is that they can ask their god directly for his preference.

Starting at level 9 a Cleric can cast Commune and simply ask Abadar which policy he prefers. There really isn't any plausible answer he can give that preserves the schism.


While that is technically true, the spell description makes a few interesting distinctions. First, it says "You contact your deity–or agents thereof," implying that there's no way to be 100% ceetain you're talking to Abadar himself, or a herald, or an overworked kolyarut in an Axis call center.

Secondly, this line opens up a whole dimension of ambiguity: "The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes." So even if you do get Abadar himself, gods are powerful and inscrutable. It might be the will of Abadar to prop up both sides and see which one "wins" culturally on various worlds throughout the multiverse - sort of like breeding different strains of flowers in a garden.

And third, I'm willing to bet lawful scholars in Golarion aren't that different from our world, where even a direct passage in a holy text can be interpreted in almost any way depending on the readers philosophical views. As far as this Abadarn split goes, its easy enough to emphasize one element of doctrine over another - if there weren't room for personal interpretation, there wouldn't be such a wide alignment web for each deity. LG, LN, and LE can all receive spells from Abadar.

Just my views on the matter. I've had several "religious debates" at the table over the years, as I'm sure most GMs have, and this is just the framework I've settled on for making sense of the data in my games.


Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

One traditional trouble with religious schismatics in 3.x is that they can ask their god directly for his preference.

Starting at level 9 a Cleric can cast Commune and simply ask Abadar which policy he prefers. There really isn't any plausible answer he can give that preserves the schism.

What Blue Eyed Devil said, plus deities have a very, very, VERY big picture view. Their answers can only be understood by the mortal mind as riddles and metaphor. For Abadar, I imagine his answers to questions are a combination of Immanuel Kant, mathematical proofs, Adam Smith, and Confucius.

Though for the Ascended deities (Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, and Iomedae) I make their answers a bit more understandable and grounded.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Clearly Abadar is a shrewd businessgod who hedges his bets with a highly diversified portfolio. After all, many different philosophies have yielded prosperous and stable civilizations, both Good and Evil. Why would he put all his eggs in one basket? That's just bad business sense.

Now as for settling disputes? I imagine Abadar is the type to be fairly Darwinian and allow all sides have a battle of merit, rather than give a definitive answer himself. In the short term, the one most capable of fitting the needs of their society will win out. In the long term, the ruling party will either adapt with the times or be replaced by a better solution. Given that, there is little reason for him to directly interfere unless a schism outright threatens the very concept of civilization.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of his clerics had a certain understanding of this process, which is why while they may disagree, they can still reconcile the fact that at the end of the day, all of them have the best interests of civilization and society at heart. It's just a question of how to go about it, which is something not even a god would necessarily be able to answer definitively.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I noticed that the back cover teaser text, "The Worst in Others" is the same as last month's chapter. I'm assuming this is an oversight. Which makes me curious what the teaser text for this chapter was supposed to be...Any suggestions?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?

Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.


Trichotome wrote:
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.

Or something to do with PF2.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Souls At War wrote:
Trichotome wrote:
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or something to do with PF2.

Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.


Rysky wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
Trichotome wrote:
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or something to do with PF2.
Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.

Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Souls At War wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
Trichotome wrote:
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or something to do with PF2.
Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.
Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.

*shrugs* Or maybe the author slipped up and thought of Streetwise or Urban instead of Local, not that hard. And also, to my knowledge Mikko isn't involved with making the Playtest.


Rysky wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
Trichotome wrote:
Poison Pie wrote:
There are two instances in this book that call for knowledge (streetwise) checks. As far as I know that's not a Pathfinder skill. Based on the context, I presume that they mean knowledge (local). Is there some special rule for streetwise?
Ah yes, I caught those too and chalked it up to editing mistakes. I'm 98% certain they mean knowledge (local) and the terminology just got mixed up.
Or something to do with PF2.
Streetwise ins't a Skill in PF@ either. A Lore maybe, but anything can be a Lore.
Could have been early on in the design, or one of the uses of a skill.
*shrugs* Or maybe the author slipped up and thought of Streetwise or Urban instead of Local, not that hard. And also, to my knowledge Mikko isn't involved with making the Playtest.

Or could be from another system.

Grand Lodge

The FFG Star Wars system has Streetwise, and it functions similarly to what a Knowledge (Local) will do for you.

Scarab Sages

Does anyone have a good map for the court of filth and Honey Kunefee?


Strange how the Hag's Curse trap doesn't allow a fort AND a will save as per the usual rules.


Delacroix Crowler wrote:
Does anyone have a good map for the court of filth and Honey Kunefee?

I've been writing up session summaries for my players:

- https://wordpress.com/post/d20tabletalk.wordpress.com/294 - half way through is a picture of a map I created for Honey Kunefe when they fight Milon.

- https://wordpress.com/post/d20tabletalk.wordpress.com/342 - 3/4 of the way down is a picture of my party talking to Gulreesh and I drew a map. I liked this one because I had different heights for the water so the party didn't have to swim, but they were 3 feet deep in muck at the very least. Gotta see if I can give someone a disease, although catching filth fever was nigh impossible for them at that point.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

So my players are wading into this adventure pretty heavily so far and with some nudging from me have gone down the path of one of them portraying Milon Jeroth. They have managed to bring all of the various enemy spy groups under their wings and seem pretty eager to spend the weeks it's going to take to assassinate or 'discourage' members of the Pillar's defenses.

My questions so far are (some of these things might be found in the book but I can't find them yet):

Qan Dismaal and the Seven Forms of Sin can intimidate or kill members of the Vault and Chain.
What effect does this have on the defenses on the Pillar? It says that they can directly assassinate Iovinus but not what they can do to the rank and file.

What would my fellow DMs rule happens once the operation is undertaken and Pytharreus is brought down?

I imagine Qan Dismaal sitting put but the Sisters at Sweet Dreams would probably abscond... and the Waterhill Manor Rakshasas going on alert and perhaps just packing and preparing to leave when Jeroth 'tells' them to.

Just looking for any ideas. Thank you for any help.


So I noticed that, in Abadar's Pillar, h37 is described as having two Tophets in it.

The tricky part of this is that h37 is basically a 10 by 10 room, and Tophets are large creatures.

How did other people who have run this bit resolve this?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I created a spreadsheet for the potential verbal duel my players will be having with Maxillar tonight. It's still pretty rough but if anyone else gets some use here you go.

Verbal Duel Spreadsheet

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / War for the Crown / 4 - City in the Lion's Eye (GM Reference) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in War for the Crown