It is kinda funny that the Ooozemorph actually specializes in turning into humanoids and not... oozes.I like that gimmick I just think it could of been implemented better.Perhaps the original concept was that you're a person who gets progressively better at being oozy (like any of your stretchy superheroes, say) and someone had the idea "but what if it's the other way around" and honestly that is pretty interesting. It's not precisely what I would have wanted, but it is conceptually interesting.
I don't know of any other archetype that weakens you greatly as soon as you take it, so that much is novel at least.
Brute Vigilante says
hibadly . . . .
Yeah the brute is terrible. with the changes to the duration of the shifters shape change the oozemorph might be more playable.
I get the idea. Its like the ooze is trying to learn to keep its shape and do non-oozy things and it slowly learns to be better at it. Its an archetype so its a little niche but the concept could make for an interesting character. Its just a bit to restricting starting off.
I can't say I agree as it doesn't actually DO anything as an ooze. It's like saying a druid that can't walk learns to turn into a bear so he can figure it out...
For me to see it that way, it'd be the OOZE gaining new abilities [GROW arms, legs, wing, ect] instead of polymporthing into something not ooze. Giving an ooze evolution points would be a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better fit for that concept. A polymorph/magic effect IMO isn't about reshaping you but borrowing another's shape. If it's just about it reshaping its own body, why is it magical and stopped by antimagic? It should be an EX power to move your body around.
with the changes to the duration of the shifters shape change the oozemorph might be more playable.
The changes currently have no effect on them.
"This replaces chimeric form, greater chimeric form, wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements of shifter aspect."
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Oh right the PFS and online view where everything has to be spelled out (which sucks). well having it work that way for my home game will be a great start to making it playable.
Oh right the PFS and online view where everything has to be spelled out (which sucks). well having it work that way for my home game will be a great start to making it playable.
AH... If you have no problem houseruling things, you didn't NEED the changes... You could have fixed the shifter and it's archetypes before this. I assume everyone here is interested in that the rules ARE, what the dev's fixed and what the Dev's plan to change. As such, pointing out that what you said wasn't correct doesn't seem out of place. ;)
Oh right the PFS and online view where everything has to be spelled out (which sucks). well having it work that way for my home game will be a great start to making it playable.AH... If you have no problem houseruling things, you didn't NEED the changes... You could have fixed the shifter and it's archetypes before this. I assume everyone here is interested in that the rules ARE, what the dev's fixed and what the Dev's plan to change. As such, pointing out that what you said wasn't correct doesn't seem out of place. ;)
You just like arguing with me too much.
No its true I could just not buy any books and make up my own rules but I do in fact like seeing what the Devs come up with.
Really though from how it sounds they haven't even looked that far into it. It seems likely that those are not the only changes we are going to see or are you going to tow that pessimist line?
Edit: Oh and yes I could have fixed them already effectively I had but no one has played one yet so it hadn't came up but yes I would of changed things to make them work you are correct in that.
I mean, I've thought about fixing the shifter (though this would be a low priority project given my table's enthusiasm for the class), I would just prefer to find out what Paizo is planning on doing going forward. I wouldn't want to put in a bunch of work and end up having it run entirely counter to the official version of the class (plus they might have good ideas I didn't think of.)
Like, I'd prefer to read at least one FAQ on how the oozemorph is supposed to work before I try my hand at it.
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I mean, I've thought about fixing the shifter (though this would be a low priority project given my table's enthusiasm for the class), I would just prefer to find out what Paizo is planning on doing going forward. I wouldn't want to put in a bunch of work and end up having it run entirely counter to the official version of the class (plus they might have good ideas I didn't think of.)
Like, I'd prefer to read at least one FAQ on how the oozemorph is supposed to work before I try my hand at it.
Right there is that and then the deeper concerns. Maybe the shifter is a trend and Paizo isn't going to do as much quality work anymore. So maybe I should stop buying Paizo. So this fix and knowing their is more to come is a relief in that fashion too. Showing Paizo does have a deep caring for the content they put out, and will work to address concerns.
You just like arguing with me to much.
Odd, it seem that it was you that enjoyed arguing. I was just correctly correcting you, and you had to comment on it. :P
No its true I could just not buy any books and make up my own rules but I do in fact like seeing what the Devs come up with.
But YOU just suggested that ANYONE that wasn't online/pfs could ignore the rules and apply the fix to oozemorphs... that sounds a LOT like making up your own rules and not needing official rules to tell you what to do...
Really though from how it sounds they haven't even looked that far into it. It seems likely that those are not the only changes we are going to see or are you going to tow that pessimist line?
They've said they're still looking into oozemorph so there is NO way to say what will or will not change. It's jumping the gun to assume that any change to the shifter will affect the oozemorphs abilities. I don't see that as pessimistic or optimistic but realistic.
PossibleCabbage: My point was on the assumption that the FAQ applied to the oozemorph and that pointing that out was PFS/online thinking. I don't think ANY houserule is prudent until we see how thing shake out. [or shifter for that matter]. I thought Vidmaster7's comment on the shifter's FAQ applying was misleading so I posted to make sure someone don't see it and think it was legal: I honestly didn't expect a response or the accusations of starting an argument.
You just like arguing with me to much.Odd, it seem that it was you that enjoyed arguing. I was just correctly correcting you, and you had to comment on it. :P
No its true I could just not buy any books and make up my own rules but I do in fact like seeing what the Devs come up with.But YOU just suggested that ANYONE that wasn't online/pfs could ignore the rules and apply the fix to oozemorphs... that sounds a LOT like making up your own rules and not needing official rules to tell you what to do...
Really though from how it sounds they haven't even looked that far into it. It seems likely that those are not the only changes we are going to see or are you going to tow that pessimist line?They've said they're still looking into oozemorph so there is NO way to say what will or will not change. It's jumping the gun to assume that any change to the shifter will affect the oozemorphs abilities. I don't see that as pessimistic or optimistic but realistic.
PossibleCabbage: My point was on the assumption that the FAQ applied to the oozemorph and that pointing that out was PFS/online thinking. I don't think ANY houserule is prudent until we see how thing shake out. [or shifter for that matter]. I thought Vidmaster7's comment on the shifter's FAQ applying was misleading so I posted to make sure someone don't see it and think it was legal: I honestly didn't expect a response or the accusations of starting an argument.
You took it way to seriously. Problem with the internet no context. It was a light teasing that was intended because we always seem to be at odds. no need to take it so starkly.
I don't see how my comment was gonna confuse someone in PFS about a rule change. are these already active in PFS or something? I was saying a similar change to oozemorph would help it quite a bit. as far a I know no change was made to any of the archetypes yet.
You really need to find a consistent group. You always seemed so stressed out by all the pick-up games you play.
Right there is that and then the deeper concerns. Maybe the shifter is a trend and Paizo isn't going to do as much quality work anymore. So maybe I should stop buying Paizo. So this fix and knowing their is more to come is a relief in that fashion too. Showing Paizo does have a deep caring for the content they put out, and will work to address concerns.
I feel like Paizo's track record shows there's not much to worry about. We can conclude that the ACG had issues from the size of the errata document alone, and even though whatever happened there happened, they came back strong with Unchained, Occult, Intrigue, and Horror (to name a few books I was particularly impressed by.) I think everyone should accept that getting Starfinder out the door complicated other projects, and trust that they're going to land on their feet.
I mean, the parts of Ultimate Wilderness unrelated to the Shifter compare favorably to other recent RPG line books (modulo inevitable complaints anytime anything is reprinted in a way that can be termed "a nerf"). So like the worst thing that could come of this is "no more new classes" which, from the OP we know is not the plan.
I do find it strange that they bother to introduce ooze based polymorph spells but doen't even use them for the oozemorph archetype. But then again they finally gave us fey polymorph spells and we didn't get a shifter archetype for that one as well.
I love Occult Adventures, Unchained has some interesting stuff, but I was very disappointed with Horror Adventures and Ultimate Intrigue. Also the shifter isn't the only problem I have with UW. But this is about the Shifter and it's archetypes.
Speaking of the archetypes I hope they change it were the elementalist actually lets you change into bigger/better forms then just elemental body I. Also would love to gain slam attacks(based on shifter claws) with the elemental damage.
Change that the fiendflesh shifter archetype "has to be evil" to any alignment.
Increase the duration for the plant shape ability of the verdant shifter.
I would prefer the oozemorph was a humanoid that changes into an ooze then a ooze that changes into a humanoid.
I really like Ultimate Intrigue! I honestly didn't think I would but it's one of my favorite of the Ultimate books.
I had a thought about Oozemorph, but it might require way too much to redesign:
What if certain oozes (Gelatinous Cube, Grey Ooze, Gunpowder Ooze, etc) could be picked just like Aspects, and then at certain levels more ooze types could be picked, with the HD of a given ooze being the restriction for level availability?
I actually like the basic direction they came from with the Oozemorph....has a very Mezlan feel IMO, and I'm looking foreword to playing it in our upcoming Strange Aeons game.
I just think they made it far to crippeling at early levels, and with very little to justify staying in the class for more than a few levels.
Like it's parent class, it just doesn't have enough options going for it to make it interesting.
We clarified some of the Fluidic form wording, made it an EX ability, and made the Alter form and Beast Shape part a separate SU ability.
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I'm of the stance that if you're going to design something to be bad, don't design it at all. It's a waste of page space and an insult to players everywhere.
If it must exist, make it a template in a Bestiary, or something, for the GM to use.
I actually like the basic direction they came from with the Oozemorph....has a very Mezlan feel...
You took it way to seriously. Problem with the internet no context. It was a light teasing that was intended because we always seem to be at odds. no need to take it so starkl
LOL I can only take you at face value unless you make a clear 'hint' that it isn't . For instance, I'll add an emoji is I make a comment in jest [ :), ;), :P ]. It's a tangible way to minimize confusion. ;)
I don't see how my comment was gonna confuse someone in PFS about a rule change.
My comment wasn't made with PFS in mind. It was for anyone that looked at the first post and yours and wasn't aware that the FAQ DIDN'T cover the oozemorph: Your post made it seem, IMO, that the FAQ already covered the oozemorph and that's why I posted.
as far a I know no change was made to any of the archetypes yet.
Not directly, but the change to wildshape applies to archetypes that alter wildshape. For instance, the Elementalist Shifter gets the new wildshape duration for Elemental Form . This might be where the problem started as "with the changes to the duration of the shifters shape change the oozemorph might be more playable" makes it seem that oozemorph falls into the same category as Elementalist but it doesn't.
You really need to find a consistent group. You always seemed so stressed out by all the pick-up games you play.
A consistent group isn't possible for various reason. Even if I did though, it wouldn't alter my posting. 'It's not a problem because you can houserule it' has never been a satisfying answer to me in my 30+ years of playing. I REALLY dislike the 'non-FAQ', leave it up to the DM replies/answers as that seems the opposite of what I buy a game system for: consistent rules to play by. It the rulings like the 'take 10' non-ruling that stress me out.
Granted, every book has its problems, but one can't help but wonder if stuff like the Ice Chemist might not have slipped through the cracks as is if conditions had been different.
What's wrong with the Ice Chemist exactly? It seems functional, if a little unexciting. Bombs are cold, not hot, and you get cold resistance instead of poison. Frost bombs as a mandatory discovery is a bit odd since your bombs are cold by default but it lets you put "staggered" on them, which is handy.
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Granted, every book has its problems, but one can't help but wonder if stuff like the Ice Chemist might not have slipped through the cracks as is if conditions had been different.What's wrong with the Ice Chemist exactly? It seems functional, if a little unexciting. Bombs are cold, not hot, and you get cold resistance instead of poison. Frost bombs as a mandatory discovery is a bit odd since your bombs are cold by default but it lets you put "staggered" on them, which is handy.
There are a few problems with it-
1. Cold is just a worse element. Some common things have cold immunity- such as skeletons. Not a major problem, since you can learn fire... or just get a different element discovery for bombs (like acid).2. This is something I notice across genres- is it ever really useful to have an element damage type and resistance to that same damage type? Usually, only one is useful at a time. If you are using ice to attack fire types, then the ice resist isn't going to help. But if you are resisting ice types, then your ice damage probably doesn't do much.
3. The ice bomb ability just cuts off two bomb discoveries from you (somewhat decent ones). You do not really get anything in return for this.
But honestly? Yeah, it TOO bad of an archetype. Lots of arhcetypes do worse (heck, dragonblood chemyst is just a downgraded version of stuff you can already do). You are still left with various options from the core of the class- even if your bombs become useless, you can still use buffs and melee.
I suppose that is why the archetypes get less flack than shifter- they are usually attached to classes that have more going for them, so even if they are useless most archetypes can still work somewhat decently (this varies of course). Shifter? It just doesn't have the same meat compared to other classes.
Sidenote- another fix mechanic I thought of: summoning SLA. If the shifter could call a 'pack' to come in and act as flank buddies/distractions, it might do better. Of course, this suggestion likely works better for the elementalist (if you restricted the summoning to the creatures associated with aspects, they would summon elementals, and they are guaranteed to get new something at least every couple of summoning levels; in comparison, we already know from the animal shaman archetypes that only the saurian shaman has a full list of animals to work with).
I feel like weak archetypes that are nonetheless thematic are fine, particularly when attached to a class chassis that is already strong. A book in which every archetype is strong probably needs toning down.
Plus sometimes leaning into a theme or toning down a class feature a player was not especially fond of is what someone needs to get them to want to play an example of that class.
I feel like weak archetypes that are nonetheless thematic are fine, particularly when attached to a class chassis that is already strong. A book in which every archetype is strong probably needs toning down.
Plus sometimes leaning into a theme or toning down a class feature a player was not especially fond of is what someone needs to get them to want to play an example of that class.
That's true normally, but the problem is that in this case it's specifically an Alchemist, which for some reason had an archetype in almost every new release for like a year+, and the vast majority of them were either bad or just really boring. So while you're correct in the general case, Ice Chemist is just another bland addition to a mountain that really doesn't need anything new unless it's actually exciting or inspired.
I feel like weak archetypes that are nonetheless thematic are fine, particularly when attached to a class chassis that is already strong. A book in which every archetype is strong probably needs toning down.
Plus sometimes leaning into a theme or toning down a class feature a player was not especially fond of is what someone needs to get them to want to play an example of that class.
My issue with the archetype is that it could pretty much have been a single discovery.
Make cold sweat a discovery and frost bomb is already a discovery... What else is there? To me it seems like padded space.
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Since this is about the shifter and it's archetypes, I think we can take the talk about ice chemist and other non-shifter related stuff to other areas please.
Honestly I think more than just the Oozemorph need a full pass from the bottom up. However it's less to rework the entire class archetypes and more to ask "why would I play this over the base shifter" since there is little need to do so for half the archetypes. Though I concur with most in thinking that the supposed "entry" shapeshifting class shouldn't need to dig through 3+ books just to know what your options are at level one.
I get the idea. Its like the ooze is trying to learn to keep its shape and do non-oozy things and it slowly learns to be better at it. Its an archetype so its a little niche but the concept could make for an interesting character. Its just a bit to restricting starting off.I can't say I agree as it doesn't actually DO anything as an ooze. It's like saying a druid that can't walk learns to turn into a bear so he can figure it out...
For me to see it that way, it'd be the OOZE gaining new abilities [GROW arms, legs, wing, ect] instead of polymporthing into something not ooze. Giving an ooze evolution points would be a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better fit for that concept. A polymorph/magic effect IMO isn't about reshaping you but borrowing another's shape. If it's just about it reshaping its own body, why is it magical and stopped by antimagic? It should be an EX power to move your body around.
This would also work much better and make much more sense if Oozemorph was a race instead of an archetype (but which then has its own Shifter archetype).
Regarding the oozemorph, it's probably easiest to just throw it on the pile of "archetypes that won't see much use" but that's really a shame since the "ooze-person adventurer" concept is really appealing.
To be honest I hope the address some of the issues Oozemorph has as you get to even a mid level game. It doesn't matter if you have DR when you're suddenly helpless due to an enemy's attack riders because you also have excruciatingly low AC. And as I've played one, getting completely thrashed by some wolves because you can't avoid their trip just feels bad. I also have never used the Fluid Form for anything but menial tasks since it doesn't last long enough for the party to even reach whatever conflicts would happen, let alone last throughout a single session's adventure.
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Next time I have to roll a replacement character past level 6, I think I'm gonna roll up an Oozemorph 6/Brawler 1/Barbarian X if there's room for a martial. Six levels allows you to be bipedal and work doorknobs for 18 hours/day, so all you have to do is sleep in a bucket, and you get pretty much everything fun the class gets.
This would also work much better and make much more sense if Oozemorph was a race instead of an archetype (but which then has its own Shifter archetype).
It wouldn't have to be a race per se, but at least a stat block that clearly spells out what you get from ooze and what you get from your original race. I do admit the idea of a "mimic ooze" that has its own racial archetype is interesting but it could lose out in versatility depending on what traits are inherited from current oozemorph's non-ooze race. If it turns out that that they lose most things, it might make sense to go the new race route.
Regarding the oozemorph, it's probably easiest to just throw it on the pile of "archetypes that won't see much use" but that's really a shame since the "ooze-person adventurer" concept is really appealing.
It currently sits in a bad place as it's almost 100% ill defined: We can't be sure if it can even move, what happens in a antimagic field or what racial abilities it has. So I HOPE it can be at least cleaned up enough to be usable without DM fiat. That said, I'd prefer it turn out tempting as opposed to 'meh'.
A good start is to split Fluidic Body into TWO abilities, maybe fluid body and fluid shift. One is EX and covers the race part and the second then covers the SU shifting ability. Then tidy up the first with actual race info and it should be mostly done.
Though I concur with most in thinking that the supposed "entry" shapeshifting class shouldn't need to dig through 3+ books just to know what your options are at level one.
An easy fix is to make entries complete with every change already done so a glance gives you everything you need. Something like the animal companion blocks. If this doesn't fit into the book, a bonus free PDF like the errata'd winter witch, primitive human, players guides ect could work and shouldn't take much work. It'd go a LONG way to making it easier to play.
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To make a point to agree with something gray posts :D :P . yeah some archetypes do seem to thin and could of just been done with a few talents choices. Its how I feel about most of the early rogue archetypes their just wasn't enough to work with.
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To make a point to agree with something gray posts :D :P . yeah some archetypes do seem to thin and could of just been done with a few talents choices. Its how I feel about most of the early rogue archetypes their just wasn't enough to work with.
You could probably gather up basically all the early rogue archetype special ablities and say "these are now rogue talents" and balance would be basically unchanged.
To make a point to agree with something gray posts :D :P . yeah some archetypes do seem to thin and could of just been done with a few talents choices. Its how I feel about most of the early rogue archetypes their just wasn't enough to work with.You could probably gather up basically all the early rogue archetype special ablities and say "these are now rogue talents" and balance would be basically unchanged.
Agreed.
:D :P
;)
yeah some archetypes do seem to thin and could of just been done with a few talents choices.
I wouldn't mind some 'micro' archetypes that swap out single abilities. I know i often find there are abilities I either don't like/will not use in classes and it'd be useful to target what you dislike and leave the rest. Either that or something like a Qinggong Monk type archetype for other classes.
Of course, that's more difficult to balance and make than making them discoveries/talents/ect but I'd find them more interesting. I understand that they are unlikely to do that though.
I kind of like how 5th edition did the empty spots for what basically was a archetype that you had to choose. The concept more so then the way they implemented it.
As far as changing specific abilities I think that is really gonna be a case by case basis on that one. Kind of I guess say a single talent to turn sneak attack into the scout version or something like that? or just replace. could do them as feats I suppose for some cases to maybe add an effect or feel.
Although if the ability gets changed and then some others to back up that choice its ok with me. It starts getting real theoretical without examples.
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This would also work much better and make much more sense if Oozemorph was a race instead of an archetype (but which then has its own Shifter archetype).
It wouldn't have to be a race per se, but at least a stat block that clearly spells out what you get from ooze and what you get from your original race. I do admit the idea of a "mimic ooze" that has its own racial archetype is interesting but it could lose out in versatility depending on what traits are inherited from current oozemorph's non-ooze race. If it turns out that that they lose most things, it might make sense to go the new race route.
Regarding the oozemorph, it's probably easiest to just throw it on the pile of "archetypes that won't see much use" but that's really a shame since the "ooze-person adventurer" concept is really appealing.It currently sits in a bad place as it's almost 100% ill defined: We can't be sure if it can even move, what happens in a antimagic field or what racial abilities it has. So I HOPE it can be at least cleaned up enough to be usable without DM fiat. That said, I'd prefer it turn out tempting as opposed to 'meh'.
A good start is to split Fluidic Body into TWO abilities, maybe fluid body and fluid shift. One is EX and covers the race part and the second then covers the SU shifting ability. Then tidy up the first with actual race info and it should be mostly done.
Though I concur with most in thinking that the supposed "entry" shapeshifting class shouldn't need to dig through 3+ books just to know what your options are at level one.An easy fix is to make entries complete with every change already done so a glance gives you everything you need. Something like the animal companion blocks. If this doesn't fit into the book, a bonus free PDF like the errata'd winter witch, primitive human, players guides ect could work and shouldn't take much work. It'd go a LONG way to making it easier to play.
IMO, there are two distinct angles the Oozmorph could be handled from.....and the flavor text of the archetype comes from one angle (that of a humanoid learning to become an Ooze) but it's contradicted by the mechanics which favor the other angle (an Ooze learning to mimic humanoids). Personally I favor the later.....but I can see lot's of people preferring the former. Hopefully they can find a way of cleaning it up so it works for either ;)
I agree, many abilities from rogue archetypes could have been just rogue talents. I also feel the same way about most kineticist, many witch, and some alchemist archetypes. Anyway back to the subject at hand, the oozemorph does have a lot mechanical issues and a lot of questions on things that are just basic for other class/character builds. Personally I am more interested in finding out what the final version of the shifter will be like before I really look at the archetypes.
You could do the T 1000 thing if your ooze that turns humanoid or humanoid that turns into an ooze. I would much prefer the second, it take less space to have an archetype that lets you turn into an ooze then ooze that makes you an ooze that turns into a player race, humanoids, giants, etc.
Next time I have to roll a replacement character past level 6, I think I'm gonna roll up an Oozemorph 6/Brawler 1/Barbarian X if there's room for a martial. Six levels allows you to be bipedal and work doorknobs for 18 hours/day, so all you have to do is sleep in a bucket, and you get pretty much everything fun the class gets.
Pretty much what I have done....Oozemorph 4 / rest of the way Brawler...it's looking fun so far :P
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I'd like aquatic aspects to be made available for the Shifter
I'd like them too but I'm expecting them to be in a splat book. It could have other more fantastic forms, like dragon, griffon, owlbear, harpy, ect: of course those would most likely be linked to an archetype or feat.
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Personally shark or octopus would have made more sense as one of the core animal choices over the one dinosaur. Besides dinosaurs could have been put together for a later book. Other animals that would be nice to see would be ape, boar, cat, fox, horse, humming bird, manta/sting ray, rabbit, turtle, and weasel. Also would like to add vermin to the list like ant, bee, beetle, centipede, crab, jellyfish, scorpion, slug, and spider.
The main shifter archetypes I would like to see would be for dragons, fey, magical beast, and monstrous humanoids.
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I love the direction Paizo seems to be taking with the Shifter, moving to hours is a fantastic change. But the overall uninspired design, lack of innovation, relative weakness in comparison to similar builds, low number of choices and bizarre restrictions still remain.
The things that I feel should be given a hard look include:
Minor Aspects duration. You only get 5 of these, they're underwhelming as is, and you can only use them for minutes per day? They should be permanent, so ability bonuses can be used for things like feat qualifications.
Weapon Proficiencies. They should be able to use a better ranged option. I recommend Shortbow. The flexibility of being able to pick up a ranged weapon is important for full BAB characters who would otherwise sit on their hands.
Dead Levels. There are too many levels where nothing interesting happens.
"Chimera" Talking Point. Like many others have said, I think the final design dropped the ball on the idea of being able to combine animal forms. There should be a system whereby Shifters can apply modifications from a list to their current wild shape. Water breathing, flight, climb speed, swim speed, natural armor bonus. Consequential things.
Claws. Look, claws are okay I guess, but who decided to take that and run? Claws aren't thematically appropriate for too many animals. Why aren't claws tied into Minor Aspects in some way? Way too much of the class's design budget went into these things. I'd personally prefer no claws baseline, and have options that let you use your aspect's attacks while humanoid.
No Iteratives. I don't know what the best way to fix this is, but I just want to say for the record that I'm going to have trouble explaining to one of my players why their cute cat form has to grow another head to keep up with damage.
Skill List. No intimidate? No heal? No sense motive? Are we absolutely sure about these? Threatening someone to get them to leave the forest, licking wounds, an animalistic sensitivity to hostility.
Choices. A Shifter chooses aspects and nothing else. At least let them choose one other thing. Bonus feats even!
I agree with many of those points Waterlethe. I did find it strange they didn't get any of those skills as class skills along with disguise.
I'd like aquatic aspects to be made available for the ShifterI'd like them too but I'm expecting them to be in a splat book. It could have other more fantastic forms, like dragon, griffon, owlbear, harpy, ect: of course those would most likely be linked to an archetype or feat.
Or an archetype for dragons to be human. Kind of like the oozemorph, where you are building up time spent as your humanoid shape.
Of course, that would require the archetype to mostly be empty, just a "turn into John Doe" thing, and the races would have to be fantastical to make up for it. Which might mean race options designed purely for a single class, which is quite a step out of the normal paradigmn.
But it is more likely that you will just see a 'be a dragon' archetype. Which I kind of fear, since most of the dragon related archetypes take a whole lot from the class just for the honor of being labeled dragon (example- any of the drake archetypes), and this class just doesn't have enough meat to have that cut out.
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I agree with many of those points Waterlethe. I did find it strange they didn't get any of those skills as class skills along with disguise.
I agree with many of those points as well.
I think for me my biggest concern is that I can't find a good reason currently to take either the base class, or any of the archetypes for more than a dip of a few levels.Far to many dead levels, and far to slow a scaling on the abilities that are present.
And at least the Oozemorph not getting disguise (since they have Alter self) boggles the mind.....
Personally shark or octopus would have made more sense as one of the core animal choices over the one dinosaur. Besides dinosaurs could have been put together for a later book.
They needed another creature with enough natural attack to make the minimum damage numbers and had pounce. Without the dino, you'd ONLY have a single form picked for any reasonable damage totals.
ape
Monkey uses dire ape stats.
cat, fox, rabbit, weasel
Do you mean tiny versions? They aren't going to be much different than mouse.
horse
Pretty much what stag is. I could see a list of animals that you could refluff your form as: I don't need a whole new form for horse if it boils down to [replace gore with bite].
humming bird, manta/sting ray
Interesting. A tiny creature with perfect flight could be interesting as would ANY aquatic form.
would like to add vermin to the list like ant, bee, beetle, centipede, crab, jellyfish, scorpion, slug, and spider.
If the hunter is any indicator, that's an archetype... :P
The main shifter archetypes I would like to see would be for dragons, fey, magical beast, and monstrous humanoids.
I'm right there with you. ;)
So I was going to stick this on the Rules thread originally....but decided it may be of more use here for the time being.....
My first few read throughs of the Oozemorphs "Fluidic Body" ability, as I was trying to get the RAI straight in my mind....
"Fluidic Body (Ex/Su): An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight. An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as bane weapons and a ranger’s favored enemy). In this form, the oozemorph is immune to critical hits and precision damage and can’t be flanked. However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body. An oozemorph reverts to this formless state whenever she is unconscious or in an area of antimagic. This is treated as a polymorph effect. A number of times per day equal to half her level (minimum 1), an oozemorph can assume a humanoid form as a move action. This transformation is identical to alter self, except the oozemorph can maintain the form for a number of hours equal to her level. Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 1 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.* Ending this transformation at any time reverts the oozemorph back to her ooze form and renders her fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the number of hours she maintained the form. This replaces chimeric form, greater chimeric form, wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements of shifter aspect."
OK, that all seemed pretty clear as far as intent...maintaining the form past it's normal duration requires a fort save, and your tired afterwords......I'm good with that.
Then someone else emphasized this part......
"Ending this transformation at any time reverts the oozemorph back to her ooze form and renders her fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the number of hours she maintained the form."
Which makes it sound as if ANY use of the Alter Self aspect of fluidic body renders you fatigued....
As it stands....is that correct ?