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So this is purely from a "oh that is NOT right" or any other non-crunch reasons. This is not about what is mechanically the worst obedience. What do you think is the worst obedience to have to do every single day.
For me some of the demon (okay some of the evil ones) were just... well my stomach turned a little. Any that involve eating things that ought not be consumed. What about you lot?
On the flip side of that, then, we have Ragathiel, a lawful good empyreal lord whose obedience requires you to execute a "wrongdoer" each and every day. That's more disturbing than even those demon lords - at least for them you could slaughter mindless house centipedes, whereas Ragathiel's obedience is usually going to have you killing sentient creatures left and right.
One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.
One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.
That's a lot of gold each day. Plus, the target must be willing to return.
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One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.That's a lot of gold each day. Plus, the target must be willing to return.
Okay, one very optimistic wrongdoer.
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Zursvaater's obedience requires you to "Immerse yourself in lava or a roaring flame for one hour" which is fine for fire giants, and impossible for most everybody else.
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Well... the obediences for Andirifkhu, Lamashtu, and Zevgavizeb all require you to torture a creature to death every day, so I think that would be pretty high up on my list of bad things to do. Gogunta and Kostchtchie likewise require daily killing.
On the flip side of that, then, we have Ragathiel, a lawful good empyreal lord whose obedience requires you to execute a "wrongdoer" each and every day. That's more disturbing than even those demon lords - at least for them you could slaughter mindless house centipedes, whereas Ragathiel's obedience is usually going to have you killing sentient creatures left and right.
Sentient living creatures can include fiends, sentient undead, Dragons, evil fey...
They did and do wrong, and some are considered pests on top of it.
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Well... the obediences for Andirifkhu, Lamashtu, and Zevgavizeb all require you to torture a creature to death every day, so I think that would be pretty high up on my list of bad things to do. Gogunta and Kostchtchie likewise require daily killing.
On the flip side of that, then, we have Ragathiel, a lawful good empyreal lord whose obedience requires you to execute a "wrongdoer" each and every day. That's more disturbing than even those demon lords - at least for them you could slaughter mindless house centipedes, whereas Ragathiel's obedience is usually going to have you killing sentient creatures left and right.
I think the ragathiel one is more troubling than the demon lord ones.
If you are worshipping a demon lord, you are probably already an insane murderer. Some of the reqs are not even that picky about 'who', so you can easily grab a random person. All this really entails is going at a slightly higher rate than you might do otherwise.
But the ragathiel one? That seems downright hard to work with if you are not working as a government executioner. How are you even going to find an evil doer every single day and have them in a position to execute? It means that you are either an insane, punisher style serial killer or you are dragging dozens of prisoners around you on your travels.
Zursvaater's obedience requires you to "Immerse yourself in lava or a roaring flame for one hour" which is fine for fire giants, and impossible for most everybody else.
Well, it is a god that encouraged its followers to stop fighting eachother and instead beat up all other races, possibly taking them as slaves. So I can easily see its obedience as a very 'i don't care for you if you are not a fire giant' thing.
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Arshea's obedience while not particularly difficult is probably the most awkward and uncomfortable to have to do in a campaign either with friends, family or complete strangers as the other people playing the game
That's just a "maturity level of the group" thing. Arshea in general is only recommended for mature (as in actually mature) groups.
But I kind of want to play a Cecaelia who takes that one. Just so I can be coquettish yet coy on how any of that actually works. But, like, no cecaelia wears pants and they're not shy about nudity.
Arshea's obedience while not particularly difficult is probably the most awkward and uncomfortable to have to do in a campaign either with friends, family or complete strangers as the other people playing the gameThat's just a "maturity level of the group" thing. Arshea in general is only recommended for mature (as in actually mature) groups.
But I kind of want to play a Cecaelia who takes that one. Just so I can be coquettish yet coy on how any of that actually works. But, like, no cecaelia wears pants and they're not shy about nudity.
There can be debates on how mature the user is for picking this obedience. Some might eyeroll and think "Dan made another scantily clad sorceress and he even took a 'she sleeps around every day' feat."
So maturity levels have to be high on both sides for this not to become awkward. That tends to work best with well flushed out characters that use the concepts and themes well, and a table that can run with that. Although tables with low maturity levels on all sides might also work- the kind that just high five each other every time the obedience comes up.
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Arshea's is hilarious. "OKAY, OKAY, I KNOW YOU LIKE YOUR SHAPELY BUTT, NOW CAN WE MOVE ON TO THE SEXY PART???"
Ragathiel also if you look at his fluff needs the punishment to fit the crime so the Wrong would have to be one that equates to a death sentence but it really wouldn't be had since those worshipers of Ragethiel with enough Zeal to get the type to do it would also probably be those that were hunting devils and demons , enlisting in great crusades or wars ect.. Not all the fluff or even crunch is meant strictly for adventurers.
...Generally a criminal's sentence is considered to be complete after a single execution. Unless they have committed additional crimes since being raised, executing them again isn't justifiedOkay, one very optimistic wrongdoer.One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.That's a lot of gold each day. Plus, the target must be willing to return.
Ah, the famous case of Emperor v. Christ.
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I'd once considered a Varisian Pilgrim Cleric of Arshea, but I thought that the 10-minute group prayer at the beginning of the day would get awkward.
lamashtu's deific obedience basically requires you to get pregnant. what. the. f#+&.
lamashtu's deific obedience basically requires you to get pregnant. what. the. f~+!.
Yes, the most disturbing thing about worshipping Lamashtu would be a high fertility rate.
lamashtu's deific obedience basically requires you to get pregnant. what. the. f~+!.Yes, the most disturbing thing about worshipping Lamashtu would be a high fertility rate.
okay I admit this isn't the worst thing about lamashtu's cult, but it is certainly up there!
Zursvaater's obedience requires you to "Immerse yourself in lava or a roaring flame for one hour" which is fine for fire giants, and impossible for most everybody else.
Well... It all depend on how much damage a "roaring flame" does doesn't it? [The resist energy spell goes up to resist 30] Heck, a druid could BE the roaring flame at 6th level...
Zyphus' basic one doesn't seem too bad... but then...
You must reflect on how chance has wronged you and vocally reject the influence of any gods associated with these wrongs. If no suitable grave exists, spend an hour telling strangers how their religious beliefs and hopes for a just afterlife are folly and of no consequence. Alternatively, you can write this screed and post it in a public place within a settlement.
If you’re away from civilization, you can instead spend an hour sabotaging a path, bridge, tool, or other device so that it’s dangerous for the next person who uses it. You gain a +4 profane bonus on Craft (traps) or Disable Device checks, chosen when you complete the obedience.
...okay, at that point you're just an a-hole griefer trying to make everyone else's lives miserable...
okay I admit this isn't the worst thing about lamashtu's cult, but it is certainly up there!lamashtu's deific obedience basically requires you to get pregnant. what. the. f~+!.Yes, the most disturbing thing about worshipping Lamashtu would be a high fertility rate.
It's actually one of the reasons you're going to worship Lamashtu. She's probably permanently knocked up. If you feel like the type who wants to be fruitful and multiply, she's probably your most on point option. Maybe Erastil on the other team.
Definitely NOT Pharasma.
...wasn't it stated somewhere that one of the reasons Lamashtu wants so many kids is because Pharasma arbitrarily kills some of them off and the hope is to someday overwhelm Pharasma with her young?
requires you to get pregnant. Or impregnate someone else.
It just requires you try, not that you actually succeed. If you don't actually want it to happen you pick a partner that has a very little chance of it actually happening. You aren't required to pick a partner that's based on how likely it'll work after all, just that you're trying.
Or kill a baby.
Not necessarily a 'baby' but a creature under 10 days old. For instance, a newborn insect works. If the character keeps a terrarium with ants [Drone Ants only live 3 Weeks] or fly larva [Houseflies only live 4 Weeks], they have a constant supply of 'newborns'.
It's actually one of the reasons you're going to worship Lamashtu. She's probably permanently knocked up. If you feel like the type who wants to be fruitful and multiply, she's probably your most on point option. Maybe Erastil on the other team.okay I admit this isn't the worst thing about lamashtu's cult, but it is certainly up there!lamashtu's deific obedience basically requires you to get pregnant. what. the. f~+!.Yes, the most disturbing thing about worshipping Lamashtu would be a high fertility rate.
And Lamashtu has that feat that gives your offspring the Fiendish template. As a goddess, she makes a lot of sense to worship if you care about having strong children above everything else.
One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.That's a lot of gold each day. Plus, the target must be willing to return.
Use Breath of Life and a sap. Kill them, have a friend bring them back, knock them out (if they regain consciousness) carry for the next day. Get a Pearl of Power (5th) so your friend isn't wasting a spell. Cheaper than 6+ days of the obedience with Raise Dead, and they don't get a say in it.
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The question that no-one is asking is why is Dammerich letting Ragathiel steal his schtick?
We already have an Empyreal Lord whose whole portfolio revolves around executing lawfully-convicted wrongdoers, and guess what? It’s not Ragathiel! Why does the empyreal lord of fighting fiends on the front lines require his most ardent followers to involve themselves in another empyreal lord’s domain?
Use Breath of Life and a sap. Kill them, have a friend bring them back, knock them out (if they regain consciousness) carry for the next day. Get a Pearl of Power (5th) so your friend isn't wasting a spell. Cheaper than 6+ days of the obedience with Raise Dead, and they don't get a say in it.One sentient creature will do. Kill them, lug corpse around til next day, raise dead, repeat.That's a lot of gold each day. Plus, the target must be willing to return.Actually, I'm pretty sure they can be refused to be revived regardless.
Revivification against One's Will: A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.
Huh, I always thought that was specific to reincarnate/raise dead line since they have a specific clause reiterating it. Never minds then.
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The question that no-one is asking is why is Dammerich letting Ragathiel steal his schtick?
We already have an Empyreal Lord whose whole portfolio revolves around executing lawfully-convicted wrongdoers, and guess what? It’s not Ragathiel! Why does the empyreal lord of fighting fiends on the front lines require his most ardent followers to involve themselves in another empyreal lord’s domain?
Because it stats that you must slay them, not execute them. So this should be pretty easy for any follower of Ragathiel to complete their obedience by serving in the Worldwound. All you need to do is find a new demon to kick the snot out of each day.
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So, only the most hardcore people who are on the front lines and killing evil daily would consider worshiping Ragathiel.
Yeah that adds up.
If we're looking at hardcore ones, Nurgal's might lack the logistics of killing someone every day, but self-flagellation with a salt-encrusted whip, under the heat of the desert sun at noon is pretty lethal.
Unless you're a Wyrwood... :P
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requires you to get pregnant. Or impregnate someone else.It just requires you try, not that you actually succeed. If you don't actually want it to happen you pick a partner that has a very little chance of it actually happening. You aren't required to pick a partner that's based on how likely it'll work after all, just that you're trying.
Or kill a baby.Not necessarily a 'baby' but a creature under 10 days old. For instance, a newborn insect works. If the character keeps a terrarium with ants [Drone Ants only live 3 Weeks] or fly larva [Houseflies only live 4 Weeks], they have a constant supply of 'newborns'.
That being said, I sincerely doubt that someone who decided that worshipping Lamashtu isn't their low bar is unlikely to go through the technical rigmarole to avoid killing sentient newborns. If anything, they would've done it anyway because they want to. The fact that their patron rewards them for the action is just perks. Ah, Lamashtans. Such wonderful company...
That being said, I sincerely doubt that someone who decided that worshipping Lamashtu isn't their low bar is unlikely to go through the technical rigmarole to avoid killing sentient newborns. If anything, they would've done it anyway because they want to. The fact that their patron rewards them for the action is just perks. Ah, Lamashtans. Such wonderful company...
What you're missing is the logistics required to find sentient newborns on a consistent basis. it's not about morals but pragmatism. You're making a long trek across a desert, are you going to bring a huge basket of babies for the 2 week journey? And how are you getting more after day ten?
There's also the fact that HUGE numbers of sentient newborns going missing is going to attract all the wrong kinds of attention when there isn't a child within miles anymore... Even in big cities, someone is going to notice 365 babies go missing in a year.
So they most likely aren't eating ants or flies because they want to but because they HAVE to.
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What you're missing is the logistics required to find sentient newborns on a consistent basis.
I don't believe the newborns have to be sentient (or sapient, if you want to get all persnickety, since rats are *sentient*).
According to what I'm seeing at Archives of Nethys, they just have to be unwilling and living for the deific obedience or 'a creature that has been alive for no more than a week' for the demonic obedience.
In either case, a rat would do fine (and in the latter case, perhaps even a bug).
What you're missing is the logistics required to find sentient newborns on a consistent basis.I don't believe the newborns have to be sentient. According to what I'm seeing at Archives of Nethys, they just have to be unwilling and living for the deific obedience or 'a creature that has been alive for no more than a week' for the demonic obedience.
In either case, a rat would do fine (and in the latter case, perhaps even a bug).
Oh, I agree. The Drunken Dragon was of the opinion that they'd WANT to, not that they'd need to. I was pointing out that even if they did, it'd be untenable.
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Oh, I agree. The Drunken Dragon was of the opinion that they's WANT to, not that they'd need to.
Oh, that makes sense. And for the holy days, I'm sure settling on a rat or bug or whatever would be insufficient, and only the baby of a PC race like human, elf, etc., or your own species (for gnoll, goblin, etc. followers, for that extra 'sacrifice' aspect) would do.
But you shouldn't need 365 human babies a year, just to keep that +4 save bonus against confusion, insanity and polymorph up 24/7. :)
(Hm. Absurdist overly literal player has to have character research a 1st level spell that requires a living human baby as a material component, and then not affix a gp cost to that 'component,' so that they can get infinite free living human babies out of a spell component pouch, to meet their characters Obedience requirements...) :)
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no rats are not sentient they have an int of 2 you need an int of 3 to be sentient in pathfinder
I stand corrected. I did not know that there was an in-game definition of 'sentient,' nor that it was unrelated to the real-world definition of sentient.
In any event, neither the deific nor demonic obediences require sentience. Just 'unwilling living creature' or 'creature that has been alive no more than one week.'
That being said, I sincerely doubt that someone who decided that worshipping Lamashtu isn't their low bar is unlikely to go through the technical rigmarole to avoid killing sentient newborns. If anything, they would've done it anyway because they want to. The fact that their patron rewards them for the action is just perks. Ah, Lamashtans. Such wonderful company...What you're missing is the logistics required to find sentient newborns on a consistent basis. it's not about morals but pragmatism. You're making a long trek across a desert, are you going to bring a huge basket of babies for the 2 week journey? And how are you getting more after day ten?
There's also the fact that HUGE numbers of sentient newborns going missing is going to attract all the wrong kinds of attention when there isn't a child within miles anymore... Even in big cities, someone is going to notice 365 babies go missing in a year.
So they most likely aren't eating ants or flies because they want to but because they HAVE to.
yeah, some times you need to settle down so you can aim for the long job.
you need to play it close to the vest if you want "Saint Lammy's orphange, daycare center, and midwife emporium, inc." to be a 'success'. (sidenote" our motto is that you can definitely ahnd us your newborn children and we are absolutely not suspicious at all").
if you want to keep your cover until you can get what you REALLY want, then maybe you just have to settle for eating newborn puppies and kittens for a bit. (i agree that the bug idea is weak sauce, but i just suggested something that is more in line with this god)
(i agree that the bug idea is weak sauce, but i just suggested something that is more in line with this god)
Insects are the only thing that has a birth rate quick enough to have a constant supply and small enough to carry. If you rely on mammals, you need several VERY randy opossums [gestation periods of 12-13] if you travel or are in a place without 365 newborn creatures in a year.