Hi there,
Wanted to seek the community’s advice on a rather divisive subject in our game that has reared its ugly head, pertaining to one players devised methods to “get around” the normal bad consequences that come with being granted wishes by an Efreeti.
So the situation is thus, the player happens to be playing a CE Tiefling Bard/Cleric with a rather high Use Magic Device. His “plan” is to get his hands on a Scroll Of Planar Binding and another of Greater Planar Binding, written by some LE spellcaster to summon both one Efreeti and one Contract Devil both. He figures this method would only cost him 4.5 thousand gold for three catch free wishes, thinking he doesn’t have to offer the outsiders anything to get them to agree and “beat them down” with charisma tests to make them comply.
Now assuming that saves are failed and so on, he is presented with two bound outsiders, his plan is to use the Contract Devil as a “lawyer” of sorts to draft a massive contract of conditions on said wishes to essentially in his opinion make them “catch free”.
I argued that the Efreeti has likely faced “legal” issues of this nature before, and the Baatezu’s best efforts will see at most, the most obvious and inevitable consequences being avoided but there WILL always be a catch, maybe just not an obvious one.
He wanted to use three wishes thusly - one to grant his cohort (a Dark Elf Vampire) the “Fey Creature” template so she could turn a Nymph and have another thrall that way, he also wanted to emulate the Rogue’s “Trapfinding” class feature via a magic item (to make him the official party Rogue), and lastly he wanted a “Portable Hole” for his Vampire Cohort to hide inside during the day.
When I explained all three wishes would have some kind of catch or consequence the player threw a huge fit. 4.5 thousand for 3 catch wishes (this was all hypothetical, he hadn’t actually tried this yet or made any rolls we discussed it OOC before he would attempt it) and he planned to abuse this mechanic again and again, to get +5 to every stat eventually and so on.
For the price of 2 x +1 weapons I said this was never going to fly, I want to know what others think.
I argued also that Efreeti have been around a loooooong time, they’ve seen every scheme there is to wriggle out of consequences of their wishes, the Baatezu can’t possibly cover every possible catch that could exist (they make great lawyers to be sure but hardly undefeatable). There’s also something to be said for the fact he was offering nothing in the way of compensation to either outsider and planned to make them do it for free with his very high social skills.
He is to give you some context, a power gamer in the truest sense of the word. Always looking for every loophole or exploit to get ahead of the party. He is also the only evil player in a party of good aligned characters, who (no Paladins thankfully in this equation) don’t particularly like him but he’s refrained from doing anything particularly evil in front of them to get bad attention.
So as a result of this “impasse” as he called it, saying I am not allowing him to get away with this he wants to quit and I have allowed him, the rest of the party isn’t sad to see him go.
I just want to know what other players and GM’s think.
this.... seems like a good way to get efreeti death squads on the party.
while i read this thread title, i thought 'i would never trust a FREE efreeti wish. i would want to buy that wish from þem with cold, hard cash'.
this made me think- why are efreeti famous for their huge merchant city, the city of brass? then i thought- maybe efreeti sell their wishes. they seem to be the only ones of þe four main genie races that can do it daily- as a regular business. they can't use it themselves (nongenies only), so they could just sell the wishes. obviously, they would be more tha willing to give proper, no strings wishes when you pay a proper price (likely based off the spell casting price equation). mess with a wish that is properly traded for is bad for their reputation as merchants, right?
thus comes the question- what do they do if they face a bad customer (like this player) that wants free or low price wishes? well, the first option they go for is to solve it personally on the spot (since they do not have to spend cash to get help) by tainting the wish. but if that fails... i can easily see an efreeti taking this as both a matter of business and as an affront to his personal honor (and the hionor of his race).
ad such, he would spend a lot of money to 'solve the problem'. that, or some government/guild thing might take up the manner since it is bad for the city's business to allow people like this push them around. and thus the gm has an excuse to send squads of assassins from other planes at the party. preferably above cr, and devoted solely to killing that tiefling.
allow normal prices for general service as a summoned warrior, but require appropriate prices for wishes (based off of the price equation for spell casting).
other things-the first thing i can see an efreeti doing with wishes is to trade wishes with a mortal so he is immune to this kind of junk. or just buying magical items to counter it. maybe portray the 'genie in a bottle' thing as an example of the kinds of lengths you have to go to get around this- you have to seal the genie away, perhaps for years, waiting for thr magical effects to wear off. maybe efreeti don't waste the money to keep this up constantly (allowing him to get away with it once) but they put it on en mass when a 'wish thief' appears.
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Contract devils make contracts between themselves and mortals. I see little reason to believe they could manage to lawyer a contract between two other parties perfectly if they tried; it's like asking your tax lawyer to defend you in criminal court. If you go this route, I suggest pointing it out to the player beforehand, or he'll throw a huge hissy-fit when a wish goes wrong (which is what he deserves).
So as a result of this “impasse” as he called it, saying I am not allowing him to get away with this he wants to quit and I have allowed him, the rest of the party isn’t sad to see him go.
Any time a "you can't do that" results in someone threatening to quit and the rest of the party not being sad to see them go, just say good-bye. The subject of the dispute doesn't matter at that point.
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I wouldn't even bother with assassins - most powergamers see that as a perk (free xp/treasure!)
Pathfinder Adventure Path #24: The Final Wish has an article on wishcraft... including why you can't just wish for whatever you want, and some of the results that might come from such attempts.
In addition, you might take inspiration from another element of that book. Genies can't grant their own wishes... but they absolutely can convince others to wish on their behalf. All it takes is "one for me, two for you." By having a nongenie proxy wish for the PC's utter ruin, the efreeti can punish the mortal with barely any effort at all. And it's not like their supply of wishes is going to run low.
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Contract devils make contracts between themselves and mortals. I see little reason to believe they could manage to lawyer a contract between two other parties perfectly if they tried; it's like asking your tax lawyer to defend you in criminal court. If you go this route, I suggest pointing it out to the player beforehand, or he'll throw a huge hissy-fit when a wish goes wrong (which is what he deserves).
I wouldn't warn him unless he can make a Knowledge (planes) check. If he's decided he knows everything about these outsiders, but he can't back it up in character, these things might happen.
Also, it occurs to me that these two unknowably ancient races of lawful evil, fireproof outsiders might have developed some connections over the eons. Even if the two outsiders don't personally know each other - a not unreasonable possibility - I hope his Sense Motive is adequate to make sure there isn't any sort of hidden catch, prepared long ago for just these situations.
So as a result of this “impasse” as he called it, saying I am not allowing him to get away with this he wants to quit and I have allowed him, the rest of the party isn’t sad to see him go.Any time a "you can't do that" results in someone threatening to quit and the rest of the party not being sad to see them go, just say good-bye. The subject of the dispute doesn't matter at that point.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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So as a result of this “impasse” as he called it, saying I am not allowing him to get away with this he wants to quit and I have allowed him, the rest of the party isn’t sad to see him go.
I just want to know what other players and GM’s think.
IMO, if he is the type of player to quit over this issue, he's probably not the type of player you want in your game.
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Maybe try being so overly obviously willing to do this that the player is completely suspicious of your motives.
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Hi there,
Wanted to seek the community’s advice on a rather divisive subject in our game that has reared its ugly head, pertaining to one players devised methods to “get around” the normal bad consequences that come with being granted wishes by an Efreeti.
I have 2 methods to handle the abusive power gamers.
1) I make it very clear that I'll be reasonable until they aren't. Anything that they do the bad guys can do too. Most gamers will realize that giving their enemies free access to wishes is a BAD idea :-)
2) I go the "Ok, you have infinite wishes. Now what do you do? Ok, you've taken over the kingdom, now what do you do? Ok, you're now gods ruling the universe, now what do you do?" route. If this doesn't cure them, kick them out.
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The real problem with this issue isn't the Efreeti Death Squads (though those might happen), nor the Contract Devil not being able to do this (they most certainly can). The issue is that you're trying to compel a master of loopholes to write a contract without loopholes.
How in the world would you even begin to force a Contract Devil to protect you from loopholes? Their entire specialty is finding loopholes around such an order and you're giving them every reason to work hard to do so. So the Contract Devil will absolutely write a contract...one that leaves the Efreeti free to utterly screw you without either of them disobeying a single order. That's what Contract Devils do.
If you're Evil, there are just much better ways to do this (starting with the aforementioned 'two for me, one for you' deal with the Efreeti). That'd necessitate two Efreetis for 4 Wishes, but it's still easier than the listed plan and nets you a bonus Wish. Heck, even Good people can readily call Noble Djinni and manage something similar.
The only real things preventing large numbers of Wishes for high level people are the in-world consequences (not just Genie Death Squads, but also other powerful people objecting and the long term consequences noted in the Wishcrafting article in Legacy of Fire mentioned above), and a certain degree of 'gentleman's agreement' between GM and players.
Which brings up the 'he left over this and nobody will miss him' thing, which I firmly agree with everyone else is a good indicator you're better off without this guy.
Scroll of Greater Planar Binding (Will DC 22)
Contract Devil will save +16
Plane Shift 1/day
10% chance of SR resisting spell
Scroll of Planar Binding (Will DC 19)
Efreet will save +9
Plane Shift at will
Am I missing something, or is this just a quick way to waste 4500 gp and/or die?
If you're setting up a serious wish machine, you need either a 6th level Cleric Fobiddance spell or an 8th level Wizard Dimensional Lock spell cast on the area of the summoning after you call the wish granting creature to the summoning circle. You can't prep this beforehand as it would block you calling the creature in the first place.
Then, you need to ensure the creature doesn't escape afterwards. The best way is of course to kill the creature after it's granted you a wish but before it can return to its own plane of existence.
Finally, you've gained your wishes and destroyed the creature you called to prevent retribution, but there's nothing saying that a vengeful outsider of an inappropriately high CR doesn't show up soon afterwards, demanding an explanation of why your power-gaming munchkin murdered his subordinate.
Remember, in the nuclear arms race of power-gaming, the GM always wins.
If you're setting up a serious wish machine, you need either a 6th level Cleric Fobiddance spell or an 8th level Wizard Dimensional Lock spell cast on the area of the summoning after you call the wish granting creature to the summoning circle. You can't prep this beforehand as it would block you calling the creature in the first place.
Then, you need to ensure the creature doesn't escape afterwards. The best way is of course to kill the creature after it's granted you a wish but before it can return to its own plane of existence.
Finally, you've gained your wishes and destroyed the creature you called to prevent retribution, but there's nothing saying that a vengeful outsider of an inappropriately high CR doesn't show up soon afterwards, demanding an explanation of why your power-gaming munchkin murdered his subordinate.
Remember, in the nuclear arms race of power-gaming, the GM always wins.
Here's your mistake. You want Flesh to Stone or Trap the Soul. Death is the easiest condition to fix so you need a better one. I mean, nothing stops divinations in the end (some way to permanent mindblank? Probably not worth it cost-wise) but you can make it more difficult than just resurrecting the dead guy and asking them what happened.
But as others have said, it's a terrible idea in so many ways. They don't have dimensional anchor so there's no reason the target stays. They also need Magic Circle, I think. Their chance of success is likely terrible. The saves, the SR check, honestly the UMD check is suspect too (it's a DC 35 and he can't take 10). And relying on the Charisma check? The Efreeti has 15 (probably around 40/60 without some exceptional bonus) but the Devil has 22 (at most 50/50 without some huge bonus, unlikely for a Bard/Cleric).
I know this is resolved (given your other post) but I'm honestly curious what their numbers actually were for Charisma just to see how much they would have to end up spending on this before it actually worked.
His character around the time this occurred (Lv 14) had Charisma (base 20, + 3 from level increases per 4 levels, +6 enhancement, +2 inherent (from Tome)) and wore a Circlet Of Persuasion which he argued "adds +3 to Charisma checks" (effectively adding another 6 Charisma numerically) so he was sitting around 31 (but with the circlet the bonus in this test was +14) by the time he planned to do this.
He also had 14 ranks in UMD which is CHA based and a class skill so he was +27 (+6 for Skill Focus and 10 ranks) so +33, there to the roll (I argued the Circlet wouldn't count for purposes such as this type of test). He boasted he only needed 2 or better to pass.
At least he never got to actually attempt it, I know if he did and it went pear shaped (So many things in this situation could have from saves made and so on) that it would have turned out bad for him in the end regardless, just how bad would have remained to be seen.
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So, lemme get this straight: The player wants his character to use planar binding to compel a contract devil to produce a binding contract between his player and an efreeti (also under planar binding) and expects there to be no loopholes in said contract? I sincerely hope the PC has invested heavily in profession (barrister).
In other words: "Please proceed, tiefling."
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So, lemme get this straight: The player wants his character to use planar binding to compel a contract devil to produce a binding contract between his player and an efreeti (also under planar binding) and expects there to be no loopholes in said contract? I sincerely hope the PC has invested heavily in profession (barrister).
In other words: "Please proceed, tiefling."
LOL...Thank you. He was trying to make me sound crazy saying only I had this opinion of the situation. He genuinely believes he has found THE mother of all loopholes.
Book of the Damned has interesting rules for loop holes.
I'd have thought the mother of all loopholes would have greater than a 10% success rate.
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Here's your mistake. You want Flesh to Stone or Trap the Soul. Death is the easiest condition to fix so you need a better one. I mean, nothing stops divinations in the end (some way to permanent mindblank? Probably not worth it cost-wise) but you can make it more difficult than just resurrecting the dead guy and asking them what happened.
Keep in mind that outsiders already can't be raised from the dead by anything short of a limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection. After a few divinations to determine how the wish giver was trapped, "I wish the efreeti was flesh again" or "I wish the gem holding the efreeti's soul was broken" are both options on the table under the "undo the harmful effects of many spells" clause of Wish or Limited Wish.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It's really hard keeping someone dead/petrified/trapped if their friends/allies all have access to wish 3/day.
I'd make the contract devil a regression thing...what are the PC's exact instructions to the devil, assuming he successfully compels obedience? The devil will fulfill those exact instructions using all the loopholes and malice he can devise, which should be substantial. If the PC an come up with an ironclad way to instruct the devil, he could have just used those legalistic abilities on the wish to begin with.
At the very least I think it's plausible that the contract devil is spiritually incapable of writing a contract that gets Hell nothing.
It's also very likely a violation of his faith as a cleric to call upon Lawful entities for power, unless he's worshipping a NE deity. If the deity is CN or CE they will likely have a dim view of this proposed transaction.
Repeat with me:"No wish machines"
If a player wants to do this simply tell him NO! And remind him/her that's not original at all. Powerplayers trying to get multiple wishes per day without expending resources have always been a thing in D&D. Unless you want your game to go up in flames just tell him NO. And if he leaves it's his loss.
Edit: Btw there are way more effective ways (per RaW) to get a wish machine going. You are the GM and you have the duty to keep the game fun for everyone. Don't let someone force his will on you and the other players because of his/her power fantasy. D&D is a collaborative game where everyone needs to have space to make their PCs grow, they do not exist for someone to feel beter, DM included.
Re-Edit: If this player wants a wish machine he might try for a limited wish-geas combo later or for heavy "scry & fry" tactics. As far as the RaW are concerned it's all legit. Tell him no anyway. That stuff can ruin your game in a second unless you are well prepared to handle it. Disruptive powergamers and munchkins (not all powergamers, mind you) need to be dealt with using a firm hand or ruin ensues.
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I would reiterate GM Tyrant Princess' advice to read the article in the last book of Legacy of Fire on wishcraft. Efreet, if not generally, then likely many specifically, are thought to be masters of wishcraft magic.
They twist the wish to their whims as it is being cast and the more words provided the more opportunity will come for corruption.
For you, any efreet bound this way is likely going to want revenge, which will be a lot of fun.
For the player, reiterate to them that 3 normal wishes would normally come with a 75k gp price and its not going to happen.
Repeat with me:"No wish machines"
If a player wants to do this simply tell him NO! And remind him/her that's not original at all. Powerplayers trying to get multiple wishes per day without expending resources have always been a thing in D&D. Unless you want your game to go up in flames just tell him NO. And if he leaves it's his loss.
Edit: Btw there are way more effective ways (per RaW) to get a wish machine going. You are the GM and you have the duty to keep the game fun for everyone. Don't let someone force his will on you and the other players because of his/her power fantasy. D&D is a collaborative game where everyone needs to have space to make their PCs grow, they do not exist for someone to feel beter, DM included.
Re-Edit: If this player wants a wish machine he might try for a limited wish-geas combo later or for heavy "scry & fry" tactics. As far as the RaW are concerned it's all legit. Tell him no anyway. That stuff can ruin your game in a second unless you are well prepared to handle it. Disruptive powergamers and munchkins (not all powergamers, mind you) need to be dealt with using a firm hand or ruin ensues.
"But what if you make simulacra of the contract devil and/or efreeti? Huh? Did you ever think of that? Ha! I found it! I beat Pathfinder!"
/the last boss is hard
Do Effretti even use cash?
Maybe they trade favors.
Maybe it's burn down 3 orphanages for 3 wishes.