I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.
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There is no Dex check to reload. There is no Int, Cha, or Dex based skill to reload. There is no concentration check to reload. So rules wise there is no basis for disallowing a gunslinger to reload.
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I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.
So you disallow ranged attacks while raging, because those are Dex based.
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i would say it depend of the action it cost to reload the gun, if its a move action or less i would say it do not demand too much concentration, standard action i'm split on here and not sure if it will be too much concentration or not, but if its a full round action its definitely too much concentration since it require you your entire round to do the task.
but that's how i see, how much an action demand concentration or not
So no attack or full attack actions while raging, because those are standard and full-round actions.
Rage does not prevent reloading a weapon. The gunner got the short end of the stick. But....in standard game the GM has the final say, so the gunner looses, PFS....not so much.
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So no attack or full attack actions while raging, because those are standard and full-round actions.i would say it depend of the action it cost to reload the gun, if its a move action or less i would say it do not demand too much concentration, standard action i'm split on here and not sure if it will be too much concentration or not, but if its a full round action its definitely too much concentration since it require you your entire round to do the task.
but that's how i see, how much an action demand concentration or not
attacking and reloading is not the same thing, if you need to spend an entire round to reload, you need to be patient or to concentrate on the task at hand, while attacking is very simple and require no patience and concentration to do.
i would also note that raging never state that you can't do something that require concentration check but anything that require concentration or patience as well has all the skill that involve INT, CHA and DEX with some exception on some skill
And reloading a weapon requires none of that.
So no attack or full attack actions while raging, because those are standard and full-round actions.i would say it depend of the action it cost to reload the gun, if its a move action or less i would say it do not demand too much concentration, standard action i'm split on here and not sure if it will be too much concentration or not, but if its a full round action its definitely too much concentration since it require you your entire round to do the task.
but that's how i see, how much an action demand concentration or not
attacking and reloading is not the same thing, if you need to spend an entire round to reload, you need to be patient or to concentrate on the task at hand, while attacking is very simple and require no patience and concentration to do.
i would also note that raging never state that you can't do something that require concentration check but anything that require concentration or patience as well has all the skill that involve INT, CHA and DEX with some exception on some skill
But you said that it depended on the action type.
I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.So you disallow ranged attacks while raging, because those are Dex based.
Apples aren't oranges. Thrown attacks of course but I've never encountered a raging Barbarian wanting to fire a bow/crossbow let alone reload one why would they?
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I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.So you disallow ranged attacks while raging, because those are Dex based.Apples aren't oranges. Thrown attacks of course but I've never encountered a raging Barbarian wanting to fire a bow/crossbow let alone reload one why would they?
Primal Hunter and Savage Technologist would like to have words with you.
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add in normal barbarians with a composite long bow as a back up weapon or a crossbow if they couldn't get a bowPrimal Hunter and Savage Technologist would like to have words with you.I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.So you disallow ranged attacks while raging, because those are Dex based.Apples aren't oranges. Thrown attacks of course but I've never encountered a raging Barbarian wanting to fire a bow/crossbow let alone reload one why would they?
*nods*
I just felt that pointing out archetypes specifically built around ranged weapons (that don't modify anything about what you can do in a rage) would be more poignant :3
Primal Hunter and Savage Technologist would like to have words with you.
"Rather than exploding with anger, primal hunters focus their rage to strike distant targets. "
" A savage technologist can enter rage as a barbarian, except she gains a morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity instead of Strength and Constitution, and she does not take a penalty to Armor Class. She retains the bonus on Will saving throws. When a barbarian ability would increase the savage technologist’s Strength while raging, it increases her Dexterity instead. This ability alters rage."
Apples and oranges
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No it's not. Neither of those change the "anything that require concentration or patience as well has all the skill that involve INT, CHA and DEX with some exception on some skill" part of Barbarians
There is absolutely nothing in the Barbarian class that states they can't use ranged weapons or reload them.
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Primal Hunter and Savage Technologist would like to have words with you."Rather than exploding with anger, primal hunters focus their rage to strike distant targets. "
" A savage technologist can enter rage as a barbarian, except she gains a morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity instead of Strength and Constitution, and she does not take a penalty to Armor Class. She retains the bonus on Will saving throws. When a barbarian ability would increase the savage technologist’s Strength while raging, it increases her Dexterity instead. This ability alters rage."
Apples and oranges
yeah your argument was that reloading is a dex based action "even if familiarity obviates concentration"
these archetypes still have the blanket ban on dex-based skills (primal hunter gets Stealth)
*nods*
I just felt that pointing out archetypes specifically built around ranged weapons (that don't modify anything about what you can do in a rage) would be more poignant :3
"Focused Rage (Ex): While raging, a primal hunter gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls with ranged weapons. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and to +4 at 20th level. While raging, a primal hunter can attempt Stealth checks but doesn’t gain a morale bonus on Will saves. This ability alters rage."
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Yes, it alters (not replaces) what it calls out, it does not alter anything else.
Case in point, the Urban Barbarian says:
When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she applies a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage.
So you are arguing a version of Rage that boosts Dex rather than Strength would still preclude the use of Dex based skills?
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I agree - however long it takes it definitely is a dex based thing even if you argue familiarity obviates concentration.
(responding to this cause I missed it till now)
Reloading is not a DEX based thing. A person with a DEX of 1 reloads just as fast as someone with a DEX of 20.
Rapid Reload, the feat that speeds up reloading? No DEX prerequisite.
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Primal Hunter and Savage Technologist would like to have words with you.
Regarding the Savage Technologist, the context of that class is that they are using stolen future technology weapons which often feature a large clip/magazine. I don't believe the intention is that the Savage Technologist is raging while reloading, I think the logic is that they are shooting while raging, but I don't picture them spending time reloading weapons while raging. If you read the class, it's pretty clearly designed for a two weapon fighting style (melee + Pistol) that doesn't account for reloading during combat.
I think with the bow, and other free action reloading ranged weapons, I don't see any issue. For weapons that require using actions that could be spent smashing the enemy, but instead are spent reloading a gun, I don't really think that's the intention of rage.
Intentions aside, RAW you can certainly reload a weapon while raging. I do think reloading a firearm would require concentration, but RAW does not say this, so it isn't RAW.
How about making tactical decisions about what path to take to avoid AoO while moving across the field? Wisely deciding to retreat? Rummaging through a backpack to find the correct potion? Using a teamwork feat? Realizing thw fight is all but over and ceasing rage to conserve uses?
If you start digging into it and interprating what is valid during rage, where does it end and how long is the list?
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If a class or archetype uses guns, the possibility of reloading is taken into account. Because that's what guns do.
That reloading with them takes longer actions mean absolutely nothing. A Barbarian can take all their actions, they can also take full round actions. To someone trained in using them reloading is no more difficult than to draw and swing or throw a weapon.
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How about making tactical decisions about what path to take to avoid AoO while moving across the field? Wisely deciding to retreat? Rummaging through a backpack to find the correct potion? Using a teamwork feat? Realizing thw fight is all but over and ceasing rage to conserve uses?
If you start digging into it and interprating what is valid during rage, where does it end and how long is the list?
You can end rage as a free action. Most of those don't really strike me as things you'd do while raging (many teamwork feats would be valid options). But that's more roleplaying than RAW. I like the barbarian to play like a barbarian.
But I suppose, this could be roleplayed if you had a high Wisdom barbarian. Though personally I think low Will barbarians are more fluffy (because the barbarian needs to be the one that is posessed by the cursed sword, and to do that, they need low will....).
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Apparently barbarians are only allowed to GRAAHCHARGE when raging. : /
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If a class or archetype uses guns, the possibility of reloading is taken into account. Because that's what guns do.
That reloading with them takes longer actions mean absolutely nothing. A Barbarian can take all their actions, they can also take full round actions. To someone trained in using them reloading is no more difficult than to draw and swing or throw a weapon.
If you read the class (doesn't sound like you are), the Savage Technologist, the act of reloading in combat really doesn't seem to be taken into account. And the background supports this, he's a barbarian that uses stolen weapons to fight technology despite limited understanding how technology works.
And it's the only class with firearm training that doesn't gain gunsmithing (as far as I know) or include a starting firearm.
Regarding the loading of firearms requiring concentration, I'm specificly directing this at "Early Firearms" not the technology guide weapons or the "Modern" firearms. You have to measure the powered used, and make sure to hammer in the bullet perfectly.
If the PC is using Alchemical Cartidges, I would remove the concentration requirement, since it's all premeasured.
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If a class or archetype uses guns, the possibility of reloading is taken into account. Because that's what guns do.
That reloading with them takes longer actions mean absolutely nothing. A Barbarian can take all their actions, they can also take full round actions. To someone trained in using them reloading is no more difficult than to draw and swing or throw a weapon.
If you read the class (doesn't sound like you are), the Savage Technologist, the act of reloading in combat really doesn't seem to be taken into account. And the background supports this, he's a barbarian that uses stolen weapons to fight technology despite limited understanding how technology works.
And it's the only class with firearm training that doesn't gain gunsmithing (as far as I know) or include a starting firearm.
Regarding the loading of firearms requiring concentration, I'm specificly directing this at "Early Firearms" not the technology guide weapons or the "Modern" firearms. You have to measure the powered used, and make sure to hammer in the bullet perfectly.
If the PC is using Alchemical Cartidges, I would remove the concentration requirement, since it's all premeasured.
Excuse you?
You are the one making up rules and restrictions that are in no way shape or form in the class or archetype. So you might want to hold off on accusing people of not reading since absolutely nothing in the archetype says they don't know how to reload or can't reload while Raging.
If you are proficient with a firearm you know how to reload it. Saying that since the archetype encourages dual wielding that it is somehow incapable of being able to reload in a fight is complete nonsense.
The background doesn't support that. They how to use guns. They don't know how to make guns or bullets. Most people who use guns don't know those things either.
Gunsmithing is only for creating/repairing guns and bullets, it has absolutely nothing to do with actually using the firearm.
It doesn't matter the technological level or actions required to reload a firearm, you can in fact do it while Raging.
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Just because someone is really f+$!ing angry doesn't mean they can't function.
I used to work with one guy that always worked better when he had a chip on his shoulder or if we challenged him or told him he couldn't do it.
I think reloading your gun to shoot whoever angered you is a pretty simple thing to do while raging, unless the gun requires some special knowledge of how it works or a very careful and trained hand to reload it (represented by Int and Dex skill checks).
If reloading the gun is relatively straight-forward, it shouldn't be a problem to reload it while raging.
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While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
Reloading a weapon is not a skill check, and it doesn't involve any checks based on dexterity, intelligence, or charisma. Reloading takes less than a full-round action in most cases (any realistic build will get it down to at least a move action) so it doesn't require patience either. Concentration is a game mechanic, not a qualitative descriptor, and will be explicitly called out when it's applicable. The act of reloading weapons does not require concentration.
None of the conditions that prevent barbarian from taking an action while raging are met by reloading a weapon. Using rule #0 to shut down a player's build should be a last resort taken only in exceptional circumstances (ie, a gamebreaking build that's ruining the game for everyone else), and it certainly isn't justified because you qualitatively feel an action is similar to class of actions that are disallowed under rage.
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You can Sneak Attack while raging. Why couldn't you reload? Is 'frothing at the mouth, screaming, and flailing about' the only kind of Rage people think the mechanics represent?
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Holy moly. How can people seriously try to argue that a barbarian can't reload a weapon?
Let's examine the rules shall we?
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
Hmmmm.....let's see. Is reloading a skill? Nope. Is it an ability? Nope. Oh look, it's just an action. Case closed.
If you're the GM of a home game and you're damn sure not gonna let those stupid barbarians reload while raging, go for it dude. Houserule it. More power to ya. But please, stop trying to argue that the rules say something they don't.
Edit: As an aside, I can think of soooo many examples of people who were raging mad yet somehow still possessed the capability to reload a gun both IRL and in popular media.
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Now I want to build a gunslinger/dread nought barbarian. Maybe for a villain, hmmm.
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since by RAW while raging i can have a complex philosophical discussion about the meaning of life
What is "every Metal Gear Solid boss ever", Alex?
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Holy moly. How can people seriously try to argue that a barbarian can't reload a weapon?
Let's examine the rules shall we?
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.Hmmmm.....let's see. Is reloading a skill? Nope. Is it an ability? Nope. Oh look, it's just an action. Case closed.
If you're the GM of a home game and you're damn sure not gonna let those stupid barbarians reload while raging, go for it dude. Houserule it. More power to ya. But please, stop trying to argue that the rules say something they don't.
Edit: As an aside, I can think of soooo many examples of people who were raging mad yet somehow still possessed the capability to reload a gun both IRL and in popular media.
The wacky caveat to this are those court cases where they say the act of reloading shifts it from a situation of emotional reaction, to just murder.
why did you call me alex?since by RAW while raging i can have a complex philosophical discussion about the meaning of lifeWhat is "every Metal Gear Solid boss ever", Alex?
Alex Trebeck is the host of Jeopardy, a mid afternoon game show.
Alex Trebeck is the host of Jeopardy, a mid afternoon game show.oh ok, don't know the show though
Mr. Murdock, you really know how to make an old pig feel old.
Mr. Murdock, you really know how to make an old pig feel old.Alex Trebeck is the host of Jeopardy, a mid afternoon game show.oh ok, don't know the show though
Look on the bright side blahpers, they could just be not from the 'States.