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The armor is great if you're doing a Dex based character. Really, legitimately awesome. So if you want to go with a ranged Solarian using Longarms or the like, armor's the way to go.
For a melee Solarian the weapon saves you some money, has some advantages, and the armor doesn't get you a whole lot Heavy Armor Proficiency doesn't (though the Energy Resistance is quite nice if applied to, say, Fire or something).
So...yeah. I'd go weapon on most conventional melee builds, but armor is great if you want to go ranged on a Solarian (and can get you the highest AC in the game at level 20).
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Check Operative weapons, Dex-based melee is possible. Not optimal from a damage perspective, but possible.
And the weapon looks shiny, but actually does less damage (even plus crystal), than two-handed advanced melee weapons of the same level. It's got advantages in that you don't have to replace crystals as often as weapons and thus save quite a bit of money over time...but it's not quite as awesome as you're implying.
The value of the armour is in a very grey area right now. As it doesn't work with Heavy Armour...but has no such provision for not working with Power Armour (And you can wear light armour with power armour).
If you can go power armour + solar armour it's a lot more valuable than if you can't.
In addition to the Power Armor + Light armor grey area, there are a few other things which only work with light armor.
1) Fleet feat (+10' movement, allowing the highest movement at 1st level and beyond)
2) Skin of the Chameleon (+3 Circumstance bonus to Stealth), one of the few skill bonuses available as equipment/augmentations.
3) Climbing Suckers (cheap Climb speed 20').
If you want to go with the stealthy and mobile style Solarian, then Light armor is probably the way to go. At low levels, there are no Heavy armors without a move speed penalty. The first available Heavy armor with no move speed penalty is at level 9, Advanced Iridishell. By level 10 you've probably got Dex 18 and +2 AC from the Solar Armor power, for identical KAC and 1 better EAC than Advanced Iridishell Heavy Armor.
So one way to view Solar Armor is as a speed or mobility increase. The fire/cold resistance isn't bad either. You can consider it either a solid feat equivalent (Enhanced Resistance), or a moderately expensive armor upgrade slot (Thermal Capacitor Mk I, Mk II, Mk III).
I personally like a build with Fleet and a Tactical Pike. At level 2 with Solar Rush, you can move up to 120' and attack with 10' reach.
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(and can get you the highest AC in the game at level 20).
I don't think this is actually the case. The Guard soldier wins at just about all levels (including level 20 if the soldier uses Impentrable Defence). At least, it does if Solarians cannot use power armor (which I personally believe to be the case)
But yeah, I do still agree you can make a pretty great character using the armor, it's not like it's a bad choice by any means. It just doesn't seem like the benefits gained are as great.
Don't forget laser (fire) resistance. Thats kind of useful, unless the DM is actively avoiding using them.
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They get weapon specialisation for whatever they're using. That means you're doing more damage with a weapon, even if it's not a Solarian one.
I'm using the Armour for a character I'm working on at the moment. I see no real downside to it in all honesty. It will affect the decisions I make at higher levels in terms of what revelations I take, but that's about it. (Will likely take the DR ability at second level to help compensate for lack of heavy armour).
My concept falls in line with Hiruma (above). Speedy and stealthy. Hit the flanks and mess up the enemies battle lines. Scout for the party and be tough enough to survive up front until the rest of the party comes to bear. But hopefully be stealthy enough not to get up front without warning and preparation any way.
Now all I need is to find a game in my area/convince one of my players to DM a game of this. I'm the DM for my home group, but I want to play this system, not run it.
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(and can get you the highest AC in the game at level 20).I don't think this is actually the case. The Guard soldier wins at just about all levels (including level 20 if the soldier uses Impentrable Defence). At least, it does if Solarians cannot use power armor (which I personally believe to be the case)
Well, Impenetrable Defense is much better, yeah, though that costs you your attack.
Still, you're totally right, Guard does a little better, and I'd totally forgotten about for a moment. Second highest AC in the game for the Dex-based Solar Armor Solarian, then.
Take the armor so people don't think you're a wanna-be Jedi.
Solar armor works better for a ranged Soldier Solarian dip, for one level you get better saves, a bunch of class skills, +1 to AC, and +1 damage
Seems worth it, one level of soldier progressing is either a feat or an alright ability, probably not as good as that
After thinking about them both, they're both weak in a slightly upsetting way.
Light Armor + Solar Armor is going to give 23/24 EAC and 25/24 KAC with a max dex of 8.
Heavy armor gives you 25/26 EAC and 28/27 KAC with a max dex of 4/5. So, you have to somehow manage to get over a +4/5 dex modifier in the first place for and then get another 2ish points to equalize ACs.
On a strength focused melee character it's not going to happen.
If you focus on raising your dex to the max you can have better AC with Solar Armor and Light Armor, but you're going to have to focus on making it better than your Str, which is at the least counter intuitive.
Solar Weapon suffers from it's own issues in terms of damage, and having to buy crystals which cost as much as regular weapons to try and keep up, and still lacks important options like always available reach.
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After thinking about them both, they're both weak in a slightly upsetting way.
Light Armor + Solar Armor is going to give 23/24 EAC and 25/24 KAC with a max dex of 8.
Heavy armor gives you 25/26 EAC and 28/27 KAC with a max dex of 4/5. So, you have to somehow manage to get over a +4/5 dex modifier in the first place for and then get another 2ish points to equalize ACs.
On a strength focused melee character it's not going to happen.
Those look like level 20 armor numbers, correct?
I agree, you're not going to get to +8 Dex with Strength as primary. But if you take Solar Armor and go mixed Str/Dex initially, you get something like:
Str 14/Dex 14 -> Str 16/Dex 16 -> Str 18/Dex 18 -> Str 19/Dex 19 -> Str 20+6=26 / Dex 20+4=24
which is +8 Str and +7 Dex.
That is only 1 modifier point away from maximum possible strength (22+6=28), as well as only 2 points away from maximum possible Dex. Keeping in mind Solarians get Flashing Strikes (reduces full attack penalties by 1), that full attacking Solarian is still going to be hitting as often as a melee Soldier with 28 strength.
So at 20, you'd have EAC 23/24 and KAC 25/24 plus 7 Dex. Compared to a max Dex Operative, the Solarian has 1 more point of AC. Compared to straight heavy armor, that is either better by 1 point in EAC to the Aegis Series, Specialist, or 1 point worse in KAC than the Vesk Monolith III. That sounds like heavy armor AC to me while wearing light and not maxing Dex.
As an aside, not directly related to Solar Armor/Weapon I'll note by that point Gravity Shield has been an option since level 14 level, providing either a straight +1 AC or potentially +4 from Cover while in melee.
If you focus on raising your dex to the max you can have better AC with Solar Armor and Light Armor, but you're going to have to focus on making it better than your Str, which is at the least counter intuitive.
As noted above, +7 Dex is sufficient to be in the AC territory of heavy armor, with all the benefits of wearing light armor (climbing suckers, chameleon skin, full movement speed, fleet feat, no armor check penalty). And you can still have a +8 Strength modifier making it your primary stat. The only way to get higher Strength at level 20 is start with an 18. 16 strength ends at the same modifier as starting at 14.
Although only looking at level 20 misses how the class feels most of the time, as you'll play there for 1/20th of your play time. I prefer looking at the combination of the levels between 5 and 15 or so, where your build probably has started to come together, but you're spending the majority of your time at. Looking only at level 20 is the same as looking at only level 10, for example.
At level 10, Carbon Skin, white carbon is EAC/KAC 14/16 with a max Dex of +5 (easily done for a Solarian starting 14 Dex), putting it at a combined 19/21.
Heavy armor at 10 is at best 17/20 when combined with 14 Dex, plus -10 feet movement speed.
Having done those types of analysis in the past, generally you're lagging in 1-4, lagging a little in 5-9, and then jump a little ahead of heavy armor in the 10-14 range, then generally tie in the 15-20 levels.
Lastly I'll note the Solar Armor fire resistance/cold resistance shouldn't be ignored, as its a significant benefit.
Solar Weapon suffers from it's own issues in terms of damage, and having to buy crystals which cost as much as regular weapons to try and keep up, and still lacks important options like always available reach.
This statement I agree with more. The damage is comparable to advanced melee 2-handers when using a crystal, sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. While crystals are cheaper, they are not cheap enough I think to provide a significant edge. Especially when there's a bunch of abilities you can get on advanced melee weapons (like thrown, reach, disarm, trip, etc) which are impossible to get any other way than buying a new weapon.
Those are levle 20 numbers, simply because it was one of the quicker points of comparison. I didn't have enough time to do a more detailed analysis before I needed to go to work.
At level 20, you're right that you can be on equal footing to Heavy Armor (in terms of KAC EAC) by using Solar Armor + Light. And there are some advantages to light armor vs heavy armor, that you mention such as full movement speed without penalty. Though some of the other things are less important depending on the kind of character you want. Climbing suckers become less important with the ability to install the armor slot upgrade that gives you flight. Chameleon Skin is only important if you wanted to focus on Stealth. Heck even the speed penalty is someone mitigated by just purchasing the leg upgrade item which increases your speed (yes the light guy can always be faster, but being the faster after a certain isn't that helpful).
Also, the disparity is worse at lower levels than higher levels, specifically due to the way the ability point increases work (getting +2 under 17 at every 5 levels).
And I'm not trying to say that Solar Armor isn't viable, merely that by going that path you'll basically end up in the same place.
Also Gravity Shield is negligible because it can be used whether your in Heavy or Light Armor.
Edit: As I read through more of your post, it looks like we generally have the same conclusions as I have more time to analyze. Although, I do still want to add that the Fire/Cold resistance isn't super significant in my opinion since that can again be bought and installed on heavy armor.
My ultimate conclusion is that neither the Solar Weapon or Solar Armor provide a significant enough advantage over just buying gear. So the only real benefit, is saving money. And at this time I'm not sure there are enough interesting things to spend the money on.
I guess ultimately my problems is I expected Solar Armor + Light Armor to be better than Heavy Armor in some significant ways, or for the Solar Weapons to be better it some significant ways. But to me neither feels like it stands out as superior in any real capacity from what can be bought.
It's also crappy that Solar Armor doesn't come equal to Heavy Armor until level 10+, which is a long time to be worse as a character.
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I guess ultimately my problems is I expected Solar Armor + Light Armor to be better than Heavy Armor in some significant ways, or for the Solar Weapons to be better it some significant ways. But to me neither feels like it stands out as superior in any real capacity from what can be bought.
It's also crappy that Solar Armor doesn't come equal to Heavy Armor until level 10+, which is a long time to be worse as a character.
I hear you. The way I look at them, which is probably not the way most people look at those abilities, is they're not central to the class. They are minor bonus 1st level abilities. Sure they scale all through the game, but their overall effect is minor, like a bonus feat or three. Or perhaps a free piece of equipment (keep in mind if you're spending 120,000 credits on fire resist 15, the Solar Armor character can spend 120,000 credits on shock resistance equipment or a force field). They don't interact with any other parts of the class.
What defines the Solarian class are its stellar revelations, zenith revelations, its stellar modes and how they all interact with each other. In my opinion, the other stuff is mostly just tacked on to make the numbers come out a bit better to account for their MAD nature. Flashing Strikes is a general +1 to hit for full attacks, mimicking a +1 Strength mod for to-hit. Solar Armor is +1 or 2 to AC in light armor, mimicking a +1 or +2 Dex mod for AC. Solar Weapon is mostly for the cool factor.
They're not there to make them better than Soldiers in melee, but around the same level of capability, maybe a bit less.
Imagine Solarians didn't get Solar Armor or Solar Weapon. The actions of Solarians in combat really wouldn't change. Its not really fundamental to their play style. Now they are iconic and cool from the roleplay and theme point of view, but from a game mechanics point of view, aren't what makes the class play uniquely. They're like the +4 initiative and +10 speed of a blitz Soldier or the healing touch ability of the Mystic. Handy bonuses, but not class defining, nor making them obviously straight up better for certain tasks than other classes.
So when compared to the value of two or three feats, the abilities feel about right to me. Solar Weapon is like a much better improved unarmed strike, increasable with credits (i.e. Solar Weapon crystals). Solar armor is like Pathfinder's dodge feat x2 plus Enhanced Resistance built in.
Whether that should be the level importance those class features should have to the class is a matter of opinion, which I'm willing to bet will cover quite a large range here on the forums.
Or perhaps a free piece of equipment (keep in mind if you're spending 120,000 credits on fire resist 15, the Solar Armor character can spend 120,000 credits on shock resistance equipment or a force field). They don't interact with any other parts of the class.
True, but from building a Soldier at 20th level (just to see what it would look like) I didn't really have trouble getting everything that I wanted, which included the different resistance upgrades from armor and force fields, all that kind of stuff (although I didn't go for the highest tier force field, simply because it seems like a bad value for what you get over the previous version). Also, if the Solarion wanted to have resistance to both fire and cold at the same time, they would still need the armor upgrade anyways.
I mean honestly, there isn't a lot to spend your money on besides weapons, armor, upgrades to both those things, and your ability increasing items.
Currently, there just isn't a lot of stuff worth buying.
At low levels it can be a bit frustrating, but once you get to higher levels money just doesn't seem like a big deal. It's also worth noting that if you don't try to have the absolute best versions of some upgrades you get 80% to 90% of the benefits being 1 level behind, but at 50% the cost. I guess if I tried to keep all those upgrades at their absolute best, cost would start mattering. But when your wealth comes in at 3,775,000...120,000 (3%) just doesn't feel very significant.
*Sorry for only looking at 20th level, it's not really the best point of comparison it's just one of the easier points to look at.
In any event, I do agree that if you stripped the Solarion of both Solar Armor and Solar weapon (and gave them free heavy armor proficiency) the class would play out almost exactly the same. And I guess that just disappoints me.
Blitzers get standard action charge too though, if a bit later - and 5th level isn't too long a wait. Plus that's the level you'd get Stellar Rush at anyway with that build.
For a build like that I'd say either go for another style or take another revelation.
It's to offset all the bonuses they get from their revelations and stellar mode. Weapon specialization (20) + plasma sheath (10) + stellar mode (4) + Str 26 (8) + deadly aim (10) + Corona delayed damage (10)
Total avg 63+62=125 (+35 avg from stellar rush)
Vs
Melee Soldier with swoop hammerWeapon specialization (20) + Str 26 (8) + deadly aim (10) + Melee striker (12)
Total avg 76+50=126
All in all solarian has a lower avg but more guaranteed dmg and slightly lower overall damage. Also a very important note is that it cannot be disarmed.
The Swoop Hammer is an unwieldy weapon meaning you can only attack once per round. The Solarian wins because at level 20 they get flash strikes. I would rather have the chance to hit 3 times apposed to once. Doing these numbers breakdowns is not always a good indicator on what is best because there is so many variables.
Also a weapon you can take anywhere is a weapon I find most useful. Especially in Starfinder where my games usually have meets with fixers and usually in the meets you aren't allowed to bring big bulky weapons. It's impractical.
Projected Hard-Light armor looks really cool and so does the Super Saiyan aura as does full cowling or that beam of light that is the grace of god. Those four examples could all be solarian's armor. I think all four are pretty spiffy. I believe it does say you can flavor the look of your solarian abilities as you want.... i kinda want to make a armor solarian.
Puts me to mind of Mass Effect Sentinels.
Actually Solarians are basically Mass Effect Biotics all-around. Stellar Rush is essentially Vanguard Charge, and Supernova is, obviously, Nova.
Hmm, a Krogan Hammer Solarian. We'd need to use a race with a headbutt.
Nuar?
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In my own home games, I made Solarians WIS based while Mystic are CHA based. It always sound better in my head, Mystic are empaths, Cha has always been the stat for those "attuned" to the world/universe in pathfinder (sorcerer, oracles, etc). They already have things like telepathy, and other empath-style stuff.
Accidentally, that makes Solarians slightly better at saves, by virtue of having a better Will. It doesn't solve other problems, but it's a step.
The only side-effect I don't like is that Mysticism goes by Wisdom.
What major flaw is the Solarian supposed to have, to balance out having better-than-heavy armor or better-than-advanced weapon, for cheap?I guess ultimately my problems is I expected Solar Armor + Light Armor to be better than Heavy Armor in some significant ways, or for the Solar Weapons to be better it some significant ways. But to me neither feels like it stands out as superior in any real capacity from what can be bought.
It's also crappy that Solar Armor doesn't come equal to Heavy Armor until level 10+, which is a long time to be worse as a character.
I would have accepted that you need a crystal for the weapon to be better, if the potential was really there.
But as it sits, a Solarion can get 18d6 damage with their weapon and crystal vs 12d10. Thats 63 average damage vs 66 average damage. (I'm looking at highest level because that's where the difference is most pronounced). It's not a huge difference, but the Solar weapon is a bit behind. And it is one handed. But I don't think one handed is very useful in Starfinder. Especially when you can buy extra arms.
The drawbacks are not really being able to build towards ranged combat as effectively, and not really being great at skills.
I also didn't have a huge increase in mind over where it sits. I just was expecting it to be better than bought weapons.
Armory Is changing soalrions and the weapons big time with the soul fire weapon
But I don't think one handed is very useful in Starfinder. Especially when you can buy extra arms.Dual cyberarms are level 14. Do you start all of your campaigns at level 13 or higher?
Not relevant, some races start with more than 2 arms. And since you can hold a two handed weapon one handed there is little need to have more than 2 arms in the first place. Also, you can buy a single arm as a level 11 item. Which could be bough at character level 9.
Not relevant, some races start with more than 2 arms. And since you can hold a two handed weapon one handed there is little need to have more than 2 arms in the first place. Also, you can buy a single arm as a level 11 item. Which could be bough at character level 9.But I don't think one handed is very useful in Starfinder. Especially when you can buy extra arms.Dual cyberarms are level 14. Do you start all of your campaigns at level 13 or higher?
While true, all of these things you mention come at a cost. If you're playing a race with 4 arms (or 6) it means you're not playing a different race that might have more useful racial abilities, like Lashunta's +2 racial bonus to any 2 skills, Vesk's +1 to AC, or Humans extra feat and skill per level. You're essentially saying a 1-handed weapon is equivalent to a racial ability.
If you're holding a 2-handed weapon in 1-hand, it costs you a swift action to change to the point where you can attack or make AoOs, meaning you can't full attack that round (or perhaps at all). Lets say you want to drink a serum in combat while holding a 2-handed weapon. Swift to switch to 1-handed, move to pull out serum, standard to drink. Now you can't make AoOs this turn.
A single cybernetic arm bought at level 9 at cost about 24,000. A 9th level character is expected to have around 45,000 credits in equipment. Spending over half your credits on a single arm seems pricey. Even at 11th level, its expected to be about a quarter of your wealth. Being down in equipment relative to other characters is certainly a significant cost in those mid levels.
Now I'll definitely admit, the number of situations where you must have a free hand are probably small, and that 2 hands will do you for most of the game. But if you're using any of the solutions above because you chose a 2-handed weapon, you are basically saying 1-handed is equivalent in value to a racial, a swift action or AoO opportunity sometimes, or about 24,000 credits. All of which have some value. Whether its enough value to be make it "useful" or not is going to depend on the player.
I always feel that when forumites disregard costs, that I'm the only one who don't play (GM, in my case) in Monty Haul style of campaigns.
Players can buy stuff up to 2 levels above them, but my players ussually don't do it, because it's expensive as hell. Specially to do it repeatedly (like weapon upgrades), in a game with a 10% resale value.
Being able to buy stuff 2 levels above you is helpful for minor things (like batteries, some utility gear, or a crucial spell gem). But the accepted mindset that players HAVE armor and weapons 2 level above them at all times is weird for me.
BTW, I think one-handed weapon are nice in a game with wound and severe wound critical effect. If you lose an arm, your doshko is useless. Yes, buying another arm as a replacement is cheap, but you can't do it in the middle of the combat regardless.
Being MAD, generally having slightly lower saves, less freedom of stat distribution.what is MAD? i get RAW but not MAD....
Multiple Ability Dependant.
It means they need more abilities than other classes, so their bonuses are more spread. For example, a melee Soldier would want Strength (to hit and damage), Con (hp and Fortitude) and Wisdom (Will), and then can have a token of Dex (because they have heavy armor, they don't need as much). Meanwhile, a Solarian need more DEX (because they don't have heavy armor, specially Solar Armor solarians) and Charisma (Because of their class abilities). A Soldier can raise the 4 abilities that he wants, and put magic enhancements up to 3 of them. While a solarian will naturally spread more, as he can't cover all his bases.
It is the most OPed class though, so that is expected.
That's not true. It largely depends on campaign style, and what you expect to do with your character. An operative does much less damage than soldiers, Solarians or mechanics, for example, so in a combat heavy campaign, or for combat oriented players, they suck. In a infiltration / intrigue heavy campaign, with lots of skill uses, or for players that like those things, the operative is great, and the soldier sucks.
I never said enormous, I just said better.
I wanted solar armor and solar weapons to be a more major portion of the character, but...they're just not.
It's easy to miss the advantages of charisma when making comparisons like these. If you compare a soldier that invests in STR/DEX/CON/WIS vs a Solarian that invests in STR/DEX/WIS/CHA the soldier is going to have the better Con modifier (more HP, better fort save) and the solarian is going to have the better Cha modifier (better social skills).
If your party focuses exclusively on combat the solarian is going to be behind. If your party focuses exclusively on social encounters the soldier is going to be behind. Most parties fall somewhere in the middle, where both stats see some use.
Anyways, back on topic: From what I've seen so far the Solar Weapon will dramatically outperform Solar Armor once the Armory becomes widely available. With the new fusion that lets you add Charisma to damage with Solar Weapons investing in charisma is significantly more attractive, which in turn means that most solar weapon Solarians will have lowish dex mods and will want to grab heavy armor ASAP.
I'm hoping there's something in Armory that makes Solar Armor equally attractive but I haven't heard of it yet.
Kudaku, your analysis is true in regards to a soldier vs a solarion in combat vs skill terms, especially when it comes to charisma skills. The problem however, is that if you have an operative or an envoy present they will more than likely subsume the role from you if the invest their skill points into it. For envoys it definitely makes sense to do so, for operatives they have so many skills that it's not unreasonable. I feel like players of those classes with a solarion in a group would need to purposefully not choose diplomacy/intimidate to leave it a relevant skill for solarions.
Kudaku, your analysis is true in regards to a soldier vs a solarion in combat vs skill terms, especially when it comes to charisma skills. The problem however, is that if you have an operative or an envoy present they will more than likely subsume the role from you if the invest their skill points into it. For envoys it definitely makes sense to do so, for operatives they have so many skills that it's not unreasonable. I feel like players of those classes with a solarion in a group would need to purposefully not choose diplomacy/intimidate to leave it a relevant skill for solarions.
You have a good point in that skill overlap can be a problem for solarians, especially if you're playing in SFS or if your groups don't do session 0s. I'm not sure Operatives can regularly beat Solarians as face characters, Spy Operatives make excellent faces but the other specializations typically don't invest much in charisma. Since Solarians will typically have a much higher charisma than a non-spy operative and Sidereal Influence more or less cancels out Operative's Edge until the mid-late game I'd expect a Solarian to stay ahead of the operative. An envoy will definitely dominate a solarian in the social game if the envoy doesn't take steps to avoid it (not taking expertise in the solarian's Sidereal Influence skills etc), no argument there.
It's a bit of a problem that whereas you're rarely punished for investing in Dexterity (AC! saves!), Constitution (HP! Fort saves!) or Wisdom (everybody roll perception! Will saves!) the value of Charisma, both the attribute and the associated skills, sinks dramatically once you have at least one person who can cover it. Typically the conversation goes: "Right, who has the highest Diplomacy modifier? Eddie the Envoy does? Right, Eddie does all the talking from now on! Sam, you're the Aid check monkey.
Pathfinder gradually got around this problem by letting you use charisma for more and more things: Noble Scion, Sidestep Secret, Osyluth Guile... Some would argue they went a bit too far down that particular rabbit hole.