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So I did a Conversion Guide a while back and the Trox totally through all the math off. It was a good guide for the core races and the AA1 but not anymore. There are plently of races that are large but none have as many bonuses as the Trox. Side note: funny to see everyone saying "Tiefling and Aasimar's resistance +5 to 3 elements was too powerful and wouldn't be ported over that way" and it was.
Are we going to see Tieflings in this book? I would love to see some space tieflings added to the Starfinder universe.That would be cool... Joe! What happened to the Tieflings? Come on man! Can we get something official?
After someone pointed out that the soulfire fusion only lets Charisma boost damage and doesn't give you a BAB I think it's a bit blah. If the Soulfire let you use Cha vs Str when attacking it would've been epic. Would've solved that MAD debate.
Are we going to see Tieflings in this book? I would love to see some space tieflings added to the Starfinder universe.
Just a question, Why have an operative in heavy armor? Aren't operatives supposed to be sneaky? Heavy armor is the opposite of sneaky? Wouldn't almost any other class be better? Is there some cool reasoning or theme idea you are going for that I am not seeing?
There it is. Huh, well let me take that thank you back slightly.
There it is. Huh... Well I slightly take back that thanks. hahaha.
Unless I am missing something you don't have to even get Str until lvl5 now. Why not just focus on Dex and Cha? Then you have the ability to go Int or go pilot/gunnery. HumanStr 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 15 SOULFIRE
The addition means you don't have to get Str at all right? This allows those people who want to be the fast ninja type solarians be just that. I am still mildly with Jasque. Solarians largest weakness wasn't damage, it was skills. +Str and Cha helps the weapon Solarian compete with the 1.5× Str of Melee Striker Soldiers, but it almost feels like a... Why? Solarians have so many other abilities why do they need to compete with damage per round only classes? They aren't trying to compete. They are now given the option to not be so MAD. If you go back in the forum posts this is exactly what everyone was asking for. As I see it now (Again, unless I am missing something) they can focus on one less attribute. Now you don't NEED to go Heavy Armor. As long as you buy a solarian crystal and the soulfire weapon fusion you can now use Cha for damage and still keep you Resolve points. Thanks Paizo!
The Swoop Hammer is an unwieldy weapon meaning you can only attack once per round. The Solarian wins because at level 20 they get flash strikes. I would rather have the chance to hit 3 times apposed to once. Doing these numbers breakdowns is not always a good indicator on what is best because there is so many variables. Also a weapon you can take anywhere is a weapon I find most useful. Especially in Starfinder where my games usually have meets with fixers and usually in the meets you aren't allowed to bring big bulky weapons. It's impractical.
Dipping blitz soldier lets a solarion use strength for resolve and gives them a much needed 10 feet of movement. Yes, it's still floating around.
Start off by saying Thanks as always for your long and detailed response Hiruma Kai. I am going to address your points in a different order. The largest permanent boost is Solar Armor at +2 at levels 10-20. No single ability gets a +3, which is what this would do at level 18. We won't get to level 18. In my 10 years of play no one has ever gotten that high. Also just browsing the Alien Archive high level CR creatures have a high chance of hitting. So a +1 again isn't anything(Even a +3). I can tell you that the Solarian in my game still gets hit on a regular basis. Flanking bonuses still exist and since he is the only melee player in my game he needs the AC bonus. And still, it's only in grav mode. Still situational. You ask @Claxon and he never used grav mode anyway so how would this effect his game? He would still only pick Pho powers and only attune to Pho mode so this would literally only give him powers he would never have chosen if he played the game normally. Still scratching my head how some confused on this. The reason Solar Armor is +2 I'm pretty sure is to make up for the MAD nature of Solarians and being unable to keep their Dex up to date to benefit enough from light armor. +2 AC is like 4 more stat points in Dex as far as AC goes. And I am sure it is not that because you can be a ranged solar armored Solarian, invest strictly in Dex and light armor and have a better outcome. Look at the example Solarians. The Solar armor solarians are ranged focused. A Solarian starting with 14 Dex and putting their 2nd best augmentation into it, is like an Operative starting with 18 Dex and putting their best augmentation into it. At 10th level, the Operative has a +7 Dex mod. The Solarian has a +5 Dex mod, and an extra +2 AC, making them equivalent in terms of AC in light armor. Except at 10th level, the maximum Dex bonus in light armor is 6, meaning the Solarian is actually higher AC with only a starting 14 Dex. I am not going to try and answer hypothetical character builds. For example, at 6th I plan on taking Defy Gravity. Combined with Light Armor, Fleet, a Minimal Speed Suspension, Stellar Rush, and Graviton mode, I can in a single round charge up to 100 feet with a reach weapon, then fly 60 feet back to cover (or even total cover). This is useful for controlling how damage is distributed to the party if the melee gets focused a little bit too much. Wow, That does sound pretty cool. But what sounds cooler is being more than just a guy that flies around hitting things. The whole reason why I changed this was because I know my player wanted to play a Solarian before the game was released and then was disappointed when he read it. Being a melee character you are basically punished if you choose a none damage dealing ability. Why would you choose Astrologic Sense or Hypnotic Glow when you can set people on fire? @KLGChaos even mentioned Flare. WHY would you ever pick flare over the other powers when you get so few? A lot of people on the threads have said they decided to not choose any grav powers and just take the penalty. I completely understand standing behind Paizo on this. They are group of individuals who create expansive and detailed worlds. But objectively if threads are still being made about the Solarian almost a year after the game was released maybe their class is too complicated or doesn't provide players with the tools to have fun. -You shouldn't have to dip into blitz soldier to make the character functional.
The Ranger was fixed in 3.5 and I fully believe the Solarian will be tweeked in an update down the line. Starfinder was made to kind of streamline gameplay from pathfinder and then you have this one class that sticks out like a sore thumb because it's overly complicated. Of course, all my opinions though.
It gains as does reflex. Armor does only get +2 AC but gains damage reduction +20. The +1 AC bonus isn't that strong. Essentially if you are putting everything in Cha, Str and Int you'll have a lower Dex. But the bump is only +1 every 9 levels. Not that great in my opinion if you are a front liner anyway. Even if you wanted to be a solar armor/ranged solarian who only stayed in graviton you would still only be getting that +1.
You can use your powers out of combat. Did you read this comment?
Do you think my change helps with this? Sounds like you stopped playing your character so more of opinion I guess. Works for our game but never got any outside views.
@KLGChaos A Solarian in Graviton mode can still Flare and blind enemies for a round or emit radiation for a round. Who chooses Flare over Plasma Sheath or Stellar Rush? The player in my game didn't and all the builds I have seen on the internet don't ever use it. Why choose it when you get so few powers? In Photon mode, they can still use Anchor for a +4 bonus against bull rushes or use Gravity Boost to get to more advantages positioning. It feels like limiting them to only being able to use powers while attuned kills a LOT of combat options and penalizes them more than disproportionate revelations would, especially when they have to waste a couple rounds switching to the other mode. I don't see it that way. So as you pointed out below... 2nd issue- Stellar Mode balance. This is really where the great concept, poor execution comes in, imo. The concept is clear- photon mode is your damage mode, graviton mode is your crowd control and utility mode. I think the expectation, especially with the unbalanced attunement penalty, is to use both modes, if not equally, with some sort of balance. But it doesn't work out that way. Graviton utility is situational but extra damage is almost ALWAYS useful. And photon's revelations provide that in spades. Even just being in the mode gives a straight damage buff- again, always useful where as better reflex saves are situationally useful. Add in being able to use a weaker, but still useful, form of graviton abilities without being attuned (minus zenith abilities) and there is little reason to leave photon mode. What we did was actually give you more options, not less. I will also add in that instead of getting a +1 to reflex you get a +1 to AC if in graviton mode. Which gives the player choice. Be defensive or offensive. Example
So when you start combat you look at the battlefield and decide "What do I need? Do I need the extra damage or do I need to dodge what's about to hit me? If most people stay in photon mode anyway then you are most likely going to choose those heavy hitting abilities. So you might not have even picked any graviton powers. So if you want to go damage, you'll likely activate plasma sheath and then stellar rush in. If you want to control the field, You'll likely activate dark matter, and then gravity hold an enemy in the air while your friends shot them... or defy gravity towards your enemies and attack? If you stick with only getting one revelation you get half those options and will likely never leave photon mode. A lot of people have said that graviton is too weak so they rarely use. Others think it's fine. For our game it was weak. I hope that answers why we changed it.
You can’t use powers unattuned in my game. They only time you are unattuned is out of combat or after using a zenith power. You can use powers out of combat but you attune while using them and then unattune. But I mean it kind of depends on the power. Using Astrologic Sense you basically attune and then use the power. The Solarian in my game can use Defy Gravity like a jump jets but still has to end its movement on solid ground. I looked at the Solarian and I can get over how MAD it is but penalizing characters for choosing powers they want (Disproportionate Revelations) is a bad decision in my opinion. Make sense?
For my game we changed how the Solarian uses its powers. Each time it gains a power it gets to choose one power from each path. How we balanced this is it is only able to use the powers from the path it is attuned. Example: level 2 gain stellar rush and dark matter. But can only use stellar rush while in photon mode and dark matter while in graviton. That is really the only thing I saw wrong with the class.
We got this idea from actually playing the game. Game breaking characters aren't fun to play. They ruin the game.
This comment in general makes my head hurt because it has a very “me, me, me” attitude. You might have not meant it to read this way but that's how I see it. The player might not complain about being overpowered but others might. I have been on both sides and gets boring cutting things in half and not being challenged and it also sucks to stand behind a barbarian and do nothing while he takes on 4 guys at once. The game isn’t built to be fun for one person. It’s built to be fun for the whole group. That’s why there are limits. I have personally nerf my own characters because playing the numbers game sucks in my opinion. I play to have fun. Not to try and break the game which I see most people on threads trying to do. What is more fun… breezing through in encounter with no challenge at all or a battle where you have to think about what is happening and you barely survive because the battle was challenging? It’s why movies and games with tension are more entertaining than ones without it. If you want to break your games than be my guest. But you shouldn’t speak so generally because I would assume most people don’t feel breaking the game is that fun.
I think it probably works better with them being 'always' shifted. It was kind of wonky even in 3.5, tbh. That's what we felt. Systems don't always transfer over well and you don't know how something works until you actually roll dice for it. The race plays pretty well trimmed down. I have even thrown a few NPC shifters in the game and it has been pretty fun to watch different ones fight it out. I see a lot of homebrews around the web but not enough testing in my opinion.
Hey thanks for the shout out! Though I did edit the race after some play tests though. My buddy is playing one in my current campaign and he is playing a Solarian. The issue came in during combat. He would have to track his shifting numbers and also keep track of his attunement numbers. Keeping track of both just became a chore. We looked at the race and determined that the that the cool part was the shifter itself. So we reversed the key form for the shifters. To balance this we subtracted the +2 Dex and made the +2 dependent on which shifter you chose. Now they are always primal and can shape change like a reptoid into a humanoid form. Check out My Website and you'll see all the details. Let me know what you think.
Hey thanks for the shout out! Though I did edit the race after some play tests though. My buddy is playing one in my current campaign and he is playing a Solarian. The issue came in during combat. He would have to track his shifting numbers and also keep track of his attunement numbers. Keeping track of both just became a chore. We looked at the race and determined that the that the cool part was the shifter itself. So we reversed the key form for the shifters. To balance this we subtracted the +2 Dex and made the +2 dependent on which shifter you chose. Now they are always primal and can shape change like a reptoid into a humanoid form. Check out My Website and you'll see all the details. Let me know what you think.
I truly despise how the Solarian was built because everyone feels the need to get heavy armor. Totally ruins how I see a Solarian. It totally could've been fixed with giving them the ability to use Cha as a dodge bonus. Or even Graviton giving you a plus to AC instead of reflex. But I am just complaining. Heavy Armor: Are those ropes made out of metal? hahaha. I kid. I am not seeing the usefulness of Minor psychic power. I feel Step Up is a must. Casters and Ranged users wont be able to escape.
There probably won't be because of all the variables and item levels. Easier to port over races than items. Are you looking to port a certain item?
Touché. I guess my point still stands as how many guns are you going to carry to throw at your enemies? Are you John Wick? Actually that sounds kind of fun.
I like your creativeness but the main issue is the powered special property part. Most weapons aren't powered. So while you can do this I wouldn't try to build a character around it. How many doshkos will you carry around in the hopes to throw one at the enemy?
You are really meta thinking here. There are too many variables when it comes to this game to say, "You have to play this way." For every complaint you have I could come up with a rebuttal. For your point 2. How would we go about taking those skill points away from already existing characters? This isn't really a video game that needs balancing. There is a saying in the gaming community, "Buff instead of Nerf." That's because taking away something from already made characters hurts way more than buffing other classes. Remember when 3.5 was released and they buff the ranger? Great idea. I can't remember a single nerf though because nerfing it's the way to go. I've literally only seen people talking about how the operative was weaker than the other classes. I definitely wouldn't consider them too strong.Anyone who calls them "weaker" is not a good judge of class power at all. Or they are someone who has done the math and look at each class in depth. Reading every class ability it is pretty clear that Operatives are powerful early game but the drop hard. They aren't the god hackers everyone thinks at a glance. The Operative is better in combat than the Envoy and on par with a Mechanic. 1) Envoys are support classes and Operatives aren't. That's like comparing a soldier and mystic and complaining that it's not fair the mystic can heal better. 2) Mechanics are one of the deepest classes in the game. To put it so simply makes wonder what you are comparing this too. Have you read all the mechanics abilities? Are you talking about drone or exo? Mechanics can remote hack and literally stop constructs where they stand. Operatives can't.They have the potential for the best saves in the game and their trick attack, especially at low levels, tends to beat a ranged Soldier or Solarian in damage. What is the level you are comparing? I would like to see the math because when I add it up it doesn't look that way at all. I literally was useful for four rolls in a six hour session. I think the only skill anyone could do better than the Operative was maybe Perception, and that was the domain of the Mystic. And here it is. Basically I had a really bad night at rolling dice so please nerf this class? I remember you talking about your homebrew? Whatever happened to those? If you homebrew'd the Solarian why not nerf the heck out of the operative and leave it at that?
You're comparing longarms though. What do the numbers look like if the character is wielding heavy weapons? As you recall, I specifically said we're building for damage without trick attack, and that generally means using bigger guns and beatsticks. Why base the numbers off a middling firearm? Because it's impractical. Operatives are sneaky spies that has no use for heavy weapons. I think it's really generous for Claxon to do the math for you. If you want math for something that probably wouldn't happen in a game I'm sure you can come up with those.
What is the difference between a lvl6 vs lvl9 wish Spell? You get access to it at an earlier level if you are a SF caster. But unless I missed something they are the same. It's a little more complicated then "9 is greater than 6 so 9 is obviously better." One variable that wasn't mentioned is the possible shock of seeing technology as a wizard. Imagine being from the Middle Ages and all of a sudden seeing all this crazy tech. I mean even a lvl20 wizard would freak out a bit. To put this in context, I went to Japan last year and freaked out because even their truck stops have digital toilets. Like how?! I'm afraid of even walking into a public bathroom in the states and Japanese truck drivers are living like kings.
Loving the blog posts but can we get an update to the FAQ? There has only been 2 updates and there are plenty of rules that in to be clarified and corrected. Operative Ghost getting a +4 to confirm Stealth Trick Attack being one of them.
Don't forget Uncanny Shooter. Pistol shooting while in Melee combat is a must.
Please don't belittle important real world issues by such flippant comparisons.4. The grey moral tone of the world. Sorry, but Eox should not be a Pact World, it should be the main enemy. Undead are evil, except in extraordinary circumstances, and then only for individual undead. Any character worth playing is going to smite undead on sight.Ummm, That's racist. It's not when you think about what you are saying. You are instinctively thinking that Eoxians are evil because of who they are and that is the same thing the silver flame did to the shifters in Eberron. They wiped out thousands. Women and children, it didn't matter because of who they were. If that is how you want to play that is fine. But I for one, do not believe the sins of the father are the sins of the son. If you do make them evil then all the Vesk should be evil only too. They did try to take over the galaxy and all.
I doubt they will had them back in. Why add in 7-9 level spells when you can do the same with the numbers they have. To me you already get 6th level spells earlier than you would 9th. I believe it's lvl 16 for 6th level and lvl 17 for 9th. From what I have read they do the same things. And Again, "Why would you want to waste a spell slot for a light spell when you can just buy a flash light?"
4. The grey moral tone of the world. Sorry, but Eox should not be a Pact World, it should be the main enemy. Undead are evil, except in extraordinary circumstances, and then only for individual undead. Any character worth playing is going to smite undead on sight. Ummm, That's racist.
As somebody more familiar with the MMZ games than the X series, I might go arcane assailant for the free flaming/frost/shock. Tamato/tomato I was more looking at the extra speed and charge but either could work ^___^
So I know in the games Zero gets access to multiple weapons but his main weapon is a sword. Why go with an unwieldy Tactical Doshko?
Why wasn't the errata ever updated for the stealth issue? I am a little disappointed at the lack of developer updates. I hate to be that guy but I feel we should be hearing from them on maybe a monthly basis.
I see you were trying to go the whole laser sword route but me personally I don't see Zero as a Solarian. His powers just don't shout S"pace Knight". Blitz Soldier.
Just how I view him. Yours is a good build (jumpjets definitely) but I am not seeing Zero.
Ick, so starfinder uses the "npcs are different from players" shortcut? That's a turn off for me both as a player and a gm, though I can understand why people would be alright with it. For me, it is really immersion breaking. You gotta admit that coming to the realization that you can't be anything you want to be is probably the most immersive thing about this game. Sometimes the cards are against you. Do the players rise against the problem or do they say, "Man this ain't fair! How is that Solarian shooting a ranged energy blast at my EAC!? When do I get to unlock that? ...What??? Only he gets that? Alright man I quit. Take over the planet and keep this ship. I don't care." Meta-Thinking is the definition of "immersion breaking".
The Starfinder NPC creation rules bug me as well. The fact that NPCs will generally have better attack rolls and skills (but fewer special abilities) would still make some players rather play an NPC. How many special abilities should a grunt have when you are going to kill it in 1-4 rounds? You could give an NPC any amount of abilities you want but that doesn't mean they are going to use them all.
I roll open dice, and my players can do math.But, when the guys in the first encounter are rolling at +6 to hit and adding numbers to their gun damage when only my best player combatant can hope to hit with those numbers and still can't add damage to the guns.....well that doesn't fly with my players.You let your players know what bonuses the enemies have? For someone who mentions immersion as much as you do, it seems like rolling out in the open is a pretty big immersion breaker. But that's just me. Do you also let your players role their own Stealth checks too?
But, when the guys in the first encounter are rolling at +6 to hit and adding numbers to their gun damage when only my best player combatant can hope to hit with those numbers and still can't add damage to the guns.....well that doesn't fly with my players. You let your players know what bonuses the enemies have?
- yes there are systems where creatures are built with very different rules to the players. We don't like an of those systems really. None of us have an issue with creatures having unique abilities because it's a dragon or a troll or whatever, but when the entire build mechanics differs from what players can do, it breaks out immersion. Why should a human NPC get to do all this other stuff and shoot better and add more damage to his gun, than the human player character? Are you talking about that weak ranged attack the Solarian NPC gets in Dead Sons 2? It only does 1d10 and doesn't scale so it's obsolete in like 2 lvls. If your players really want that ability then why not let them choose it?
I actually ripped off Shadowrun missions and turned my campaign into a cyberpunk story. Filled with Evil Corporations and Johnsons.
The worst sessions I have ever played were ones just made up on the fly. A lot of umms and ahhhs as you are waiting for the DM to describe where you are and what's in front of you. If I am the player I feel board and if I am the DM I feel really bad for not telling a more engaging story. Unless you are really great at thinking of scenarios in a matter of secs I would avoid that. I have put a few of these quick missions together and run them when I don't have enough time to add to my main story. A Night on the Town [Investigation]
OP: Thanks, interesting points. I’m not sure why the responses are so defensive. Different folks can like different systems, and there’s no point in trying to argue taste. Well know your audience. I mean if I walk in a Red Sox bar and start saying, "I am not a fan of baseball because of how slow it is and and I like soccer way better." I might get some double takes. Maybe someone says, "Well what about this aspect?" I wouldn't call that "defensive" but more confused of why come here and to start this discussion? I think that's why everyone jumped to the easiest thing to counter which is the complaint about classes. 15 year old game vs 6 month old game. Honestly, I could very much continue. This list is probably only 60-70% of what caused us to stop playing (don't get me started on ship combat). But I'm not here to do a full review of Starfinder. This list is just the top issues my group had with the game. I wrote it in the hope that maybe other people having these issues can see they're not alone, and to voice the issues that my tabletop friends and I had. I read your lengthy post and I am wondering what you were trying to convey. I mean you posted this in General Discussion. So was your question, who else on the Starfinder threads agrees with your points? We're you looking for clarification on anything? Or was this just a complaint thread?
Or be a Solarian and have your Solar Weapon cover your fists. You can do this since it says you can form the Solar Weapon into any form you want as long as it doesn't change the mechanics. Even having it cover multiple limbs since it doesn't change gameplay.
Presumably their "multiple sets of articulated limbs" include smaller ones that can manipulate things. Anyway, a big part of the point of space opera is that sentient beings don't have to look human and can in fact look like what would be "monsters" in a fantasy setting. Barathu, Urogs, Contemplatives are all examples. Oh yeah definitely. Great example of cool space alien is in the fifth element movie. Those slow moving guardians or whatever. Great story characters but I would keep them as that. Not playable characters. They don't play out well as protagonist. I maybe wrong though. Could you name a time where that worked in a movie or story? Some human adventuring with some sentient bug creature? Now I'm curious...
To me is more the race seems like a monster rather than a playable race. In my mind it would be like letting a player pick a griffin as a playable race. At least the Wrikreechee have finger. Urogs are just giant electric bugs. The picture shows long claws and no fingers. How does it wear armor or hold a weapon?
I don't know why the Urog is a playable race. It's a large magical beast that seems pretty boring. It seems they added a bunch racial abilities to balance it, but most of them make me scratch my head.
^I would NOT call the Race Points system of Pathfinder solid . . . . Well actually it is pretty solid. After reading and comparing the books for a couple months I came up with a conversion guide that I posted on reddit. It's not a science but I think it's pretty close. Check it out here, Conversion Guide.
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