Having recently gotten ahold of the rulebook PDF, I was reading over the weapons section when a thought struck me: shouldn't the Pact Worlds, a technologically advanced and socially modern society, have some restrictions on the purchase of military-grade weaponry? As it is, it seems that any citizen can buy assault rifles, grenades, etc. fairly easily. This problem is exacerbated by the existence of fanatically hostile organizations such as the Cult of the Devourer. Am I missing something, or should Absalom Station be constantly plagued by mass shootings and suicide bombings by Devourer cultists and other crackpots?
Or you just buy from the same people who supply the Free Captains or other such criminal elements, if that's the flavor choice you wanna roll with.
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I would expect certain areas might be governed in such a way as to not allow weapons onto/into them, but the idea that you could effectively control the sell of weapons across all the pact worlds...doubtful.
The Pact Worlds are a loose confederation, in response to invasion from outside, not a hegemonic government. Each planet is still seemingly controlled by local governments. Pact Worlds is just the equivalent essentially of the UN.
Also, this is Science Fantasy. Players need access to firearms, but it would be a problem to the genre if they had to be working for the government and have approval to get them.
As to your questions about Absalom Station, I would expect that scanner can detect weapons and that any vessels landing on the station can be scanned for weapons. This probably allows for some level of control of weapons on the space station itself.
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Restrictions and access are abstracted by your level.
Low level average Joes won't have access to military gear because military gear is higher level.
High level Joes have access to military gear because they're high level, so most likely they're someone of enough repute, with experience under his belt, and connections to buy such gear.
Restrictions and access are abstracted by your level.
Low level average Joes won't have access to military gear because military gear is higher level.
High level Joes have access to military gear because they're high level, so most likely they're someone of enough repute, with experience under his belt, and connections to buy such gear.
Are laser rifles and frag grenades not military gear? Those are both 1st level items, so presumably anyone can buy them, as long as they have the cash. Also, I believe the opening sequences of Incident at Absalom Station are set on the titular station, and I presume the PCs have access to their gear for those encounters, so it seems carrying these weapons on the station is allowed.
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Everybody having guns likely makes such incidents short lived, at least if you think about it. Most low-level people are gonna be running around with the tazer zapguns, and would only upgrade to something lethal if they knew how to handle a weapon, or wanted the feeling of power. In a crowd of a couple hundred people, someone starting something gets shot at by a dozen or so people (5-10% of the crowd), most of whom don't have to worry about potentially harming their fellow civilians (Nonlethal flat-out can't kill for some reason). All but the most skilled or insane criminals(or both) likely default to more clandestine, less overt criminal enterprises.
Or in other words, Absalom Station is a 2nd Amendment Fanboy's wet dream.
Even if a significant portion of the station's population spends their time and money acquiring weapons and the training to use said weapons, this will only result in large gunfights whenever some psychopath, worshipper of the Great Old Ones, politically motivated terrorist, agent of the Dominion, etc. decides to mow down a crowd, which doesn't seem to be a great improvement to me.
I would also imagine that large gun battles would not be ideal for the structural integrity of the walls holding in the atmosphere.
Not much in the way of time and money. Just a cheapo taser zapgun so simple that everybody has proficiency with them. A cheapo taser zapgun won't cause intense structural damage or lethal harm.
That doesn't even factor in actual police forces (which canonical use gratuitous CR4 Security Bots) and organizations that have a vested interest in a stable Absalom Station.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are laser rifles and frag grenades not military gear? Those are both 1st level items, so presumably anyone can buy them, as long as they have the cash. Also, I believe the opening sequences of Incident at Absalom Station are set on the titular station, and I presume the PCs have access to their gear for those encounters, so it seems carrying these weapons on the station is allowed.Restrictions and access are abstracted by your level.
Low level average Joes won't have access to military gear because military gear is higher level.
High level Joes have access to military gear because they're high level, so most likely they're someone of enough repute, with experience under his belt, and connections to buy such gear.
Wimpy grenades and Azimuth Laser rifles aren't military gear.
The good stuff is military gear. You can make an Azimuth laser in real life (blind people, light things on fire, singe things, etc), but the military stuff is like level 4 and higher.
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I would just handwave it away as suspension of disbelief.
Instead of getting into a massive flamewar/political debate over the merits/demerits of gun control, (which I don't think anyone wants to see) I think the idea is that players need guns to fight, evil enemy cultist need guns to fight, and it would be less fun of a game if no one had any weapons.
Plus this is a universe where a non-insignificant portion of the population can manifest lightswords from nothing/mind blast you with psychic energy/ whatever. So how do you gun control that?
Are laser rifles and frag grenades not military gear? Those are both 1st level items, so presumably anyone can buy them, as long as they have the cash. Also, I believe the opening sequences of Incident at Absalom Station are set on the titular station, and I presume the PCs have access to their gear for those encounters, so it seems carrying these weapons on the station is allowed.Restrictions and access are abstracted by your level.
Low level average Joes won't have access to military gear because military gear is higher level.
High level Joes have access to military gear because they're high level, so most likely they're someone of enough repute, with experience under his belt, and connections to buy such gear.
Wimpy grenades and Laser rifles aren't military gear.
The good stuff is military gear.
Even if the grenades aren't "military gear" they only cost 35 credits each, and if someone starts tossing them into a crowd of 1st level commoners there are going to be a lot of casualties.
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I would just handwave it away as suspension of disbelief.
Instead of getting into a massive flamewar/political debate over the merits/demerits of gun control, (which I don't think anyone wants to see) I think the idea is that players need guns to fight, evil enemy cultist need guns to fight, and it would be less fun of a game if no one had any weapons.
Plus this is a universe where a non-insignificant portion of the population can manifest lightswords from nothing/mind blast you with psychic energy/ whatever. So how do you gun control that?
I agree that the game is more fun if the PCs can use guns, I just wish there was a somewhat reasonable explanation for it. If the PCs are agents of the Starfinder Society it helps some (though that brings up the question of why planetary governments tolerate the existence of such a powerfully armed organization outside their control) but it seems as though to a significant extent Starfinder operates along the same medieval logic as Pathfinder, without taking into account how different a sci-fi society would be.
However, you do make a good point about magic. I wonder what percentage of the population has at least a level in mystic or technomancer. If it's high enough, the lax gun control could be justified by the argument that it's just equalizing things between casters and non-magical folks.
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Having recently gotten ahold of the rulebook PDF, I was reading over the weapons section when a thought struck me: shouldn't the Pact Worlds, a technologically advanced and socially modern society, have some restrictions on the purchase of military-grade weaponry? As it is, it seems that any citizen can buy assault rifles, grenades, etc. fairly easily. This problem is exacerbated by the existence of fanatically hostile organizations such as the Cult of the Devourer. Am I missing something, or should Absalom Station be constantly plagued by mass shootings and suicide bombings by Devourer cultists and other crackpots?
In the future, we have moved beyond such silly notions as gun control.
Preventing serfs from having firearms (crossbows) is a medieval idea.
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I bet they tried gun control at some point, but realized it was a bad idea when they kept needing well armed heroes to come and save them :)
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I'd be more concerned about Technomancer control myself. I haven't gotten the book yet, but if they can cast something equivalent to, say, Burning Hands or Fireball with no components, that'd be much more worrisome than the Vesk mercenary walking around with a big, obvious laser rifle strapped to her back. One I can pick out, track, and respond to easily. The other could be anyone, anywhere, at any time.
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I'd be more concerned about Technomancer control myself. I haven't gotten the book yet, but if they can cast something equivalent to, say, Burning Hands or Fireball with no components, that'd be much more worrisome than the Vesk mercenary walking around with a big, obvious laser rifle strapped to her back. One I can pick out, track, and respond to easily. The other could be anyone, anywhere, at any time.
Yeah, the fact that a lot of people can basically do magic and warp the basic laws of reality whenever they want is probably a bigger issue than gun control. In fact, having a bunch of guns is probably the only way the normies stay relevant. And alive.
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I would just handwave it away as suspension of disbelief.
Instead of getting into a massive flamewar/political debate over the merits/demerits of gun control, (which I don't think anyone wants to see) I think the idea is that players need guns to fight, evil enemy cultist need guns to fight, and it would be less fun of a game if no one had any weapons.
Plus this is a universe where a non-insignificant portion of the population can manifest lightswords from nothing/mind blast you with psychic energy/ whatever. So how do you gun control that?
I agree that the game is more fun if the PCs can use guns, I just wish there was a somewhat reasonable explanation for it. If the PCs are agents of the Starfinder Society it helps some (though that brings up the question of why planetary governments tolerate the existence of such a powerfully armed organization outside their control) but it seems as though to a significant extent Starfinder operates along the same medieval logic as Pathfinder, without taking into account how different a sci-fi society would be.
However, you do make a good point about magic. I wonder what percentage of the population has at least a level in mystic or technomancer. If it's high enough, the lax gun control could be justified by the argument that it's just equalizing things between casters and non-magical folks.
I'm not completely sure that Starfinder, a comparatively modern society, is all that different from Pathfinder at least when it comes to everyone having weapons. I think places like Absalom Station probably do have daily terrorist attacks by crazy CE cultists and weird Xenomorph monsters showing up regularly. No matter how sci-fi Starfinder is, it seems to still run on the conceit that monsters are basically everywhere and even major cities have crazy crap occur constantly, so much so that organizations like the Stewards can't handle it all, and why gun control laws don't really exist and everyone is allowed to cast fireballs in self-defense. Probably a pretty terrible universe to live in if you're not a merc or want to be a pacifist, but hey, adventure requires conflict and monsters to slay, right.
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...but it seems as though to a significant extent Starfinder operates along the same medieval logic as Pathfinder, without taking into account how different a sci-fi society would be.
Keep in mind, though, that this society did not develop on the same path as ours. In fact, we don't actually know HOW it developed, because of the Gap. Who knows what history happened during the time between ancient and now? There could easily be a social reason for less gun control, and we're just not privy to it.
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I actually think it would be interesting, purely from a game-play perspective, if there were more limits on what gear could be brought where, using the item's Level as a rough cap (with a clear "no explosives" policy). Sidearms would be a thing, unarmed combatants would have an occasional chance to shine, and Solarions' ability to manifest energy weapons suddenly wouldn't seem so inferior. And I'm sure everyone remembers that fantastic fight scene from Serenity where they're all racing to get their weapons when a fight breaks out!
Another way Starfinder could have gone, and I'm a bit bummed they didn't, is to have a real risk of explosive decompression if heavy weapons are used on starships/space stations (at least in corridors/rooms adjacent to exterior walls/viewscreens).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I like it when there are reasons for characters to have consider more than just the biggest, most powerful weapon they can use consistent with their class features.
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This post probably should be locked before turning into a debate about gun control
If it does, I certainly agree, but I think we should at least give people a chance to stay on topic.
In any case, I suppose the prevalence of destructive magic and nihilistic cults (and the needs of a certain RPG) mean that the inhabitants of Absalom Station will just have to live with periodic gunfights. That would help explain the rather powerful security robot in First Contact.
Also, this would make quite an interesting encounter. (Can the PCs stop the Devourer cultists from massacring innocent bystanders without massacring too many innocent bystanders with their own attacks?)
The gun control in the game setting readily explains why everyone keeps picking fights with freaking swords while in the far future.
Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams? Chalk it up to things I'll never understand. :(
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Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams?
Because charging guns are expensive when a sword cuts through armor and flesh just as well.
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Because rifles make rather ineffective clubs when the enemy is too close to shoot. Last I heard, the most commonly used close combat weapon in recent US military conflicts is not the bayonet or the buttstock but the entrenching tool. Now, I'm sure more bad guys are killed by gunfire than shovels, but even in our modern age there is still melee combat in warfare. It makes sense to train in it, and it makes sense that some would take to the training and wish to specialize in it.
Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams?Because charging guns are expensive when a sword cuts through armor and flesh just as well.
A sword won't do you much good if you're shot to death before you get close enough to use it.
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The gun control in the game setting readily explains why everyone keeps picking fights with freaking swords while in the far future.
Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams? Chalk it up to things I'll never understand. :(
Laserswords, chainswords, and other such melee weapons are cool. I really don't need a better reason than that and I'm guessing a lot of other people don't either.
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The gun control in the game setting readily explains why everyone keeps picking fights with freaking swords while in the far future.
Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams? Chalk it up to things I'll never understand. :(
Remember, this setting also has forcefields and EAC. I bet you there was a time in Starfinder when everyone was using energy rifles. But then armor was invented that could just shrug it off, but was damaged if ya hit it really hard. So people started varying their attacking strategy, and armor started being varied as well.
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I think it more comes down to the fact that a lot of SF ranged weapons are _really terrible_. Killing people with them will take a while, and puncturing the hull isn't even vaguely a concern.
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Having recently gotten ahold of the rulebook PDF, I was reading over the weapons section when a thought struck me: shouldn't the Pact Worlds, a technologically advanced and socially modern society, have some restrictions on the purchase of military-grade weaponry? As it is, it seems that any citizen can buy assault rifles, grenades, etc. fairly easily. This problem is exacerbated by the existence of fanatically hostile organizations such as the Cult of the Devourer. Am I missing something, or should Absalom Station be constantly plagued by mass shootings and suicide bombings by Devourer cultists and other crackpots?
being that there are people that can just wave there hand and fry people as well as numerious monsters and the like, i think that gun control is probably a no starter in many places
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A sword won't do you much good if you're shot to death before you get close enough to use it.Seriously - there are freaking lazer rifles! Why would you play a melee focused PC when there are lazers and particle beams?Because charging guns are expensive when a sword cuts through armor and flesh just as well.
True, but you can be pretty far away and still be dangerous with a blade: Tueller Drill, even verified by MythBusters!
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It seems to me that, if you can't control the guns and/or spellcasters, it'll end up being left to police bots to keep law & order. Shoot down any grenade flying through the air (military grade robots, right?), "pacify" anyone using guns, spells, etc.
Of course, their AI should usually be smart enough to not attack anyone fighting to defend the station against a random monster or cultist. *Usually* ;-)
It seems to me that, if you can't control the guns and/or spellcasters, it'll end up being left to police bots to keep law & order. Shoot down any grenade flying through the air (military grade robots, right?), "pacify" anyone using guns, spells, etc.
Of course, their AI should usually be smart enough to not attack anyone fighting to defend the station against a random monster or cultist. *Usually* ;-)
Actually, this sort of free for all would probably lead people to create heavily protected gated communities in which no weapons or spellcasters are allowed in order to get a respite from the constant battles between criminals, security robots, and adventurers.
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EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THE SECTION ON WEAPON LEVELS ON PAGE 167
So much speculation, and and errant guessing. It is handled in a few paragraphs but I don't think I should paste the contents of the book here.
Seconded. I thought it was a pretty smart explanation of why there aren't constant laser gun battles on absalom station.
when you combine that with the fact that there are literal murder robots roaming around, well... yeah.
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EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THE SECTION ON WEAPON LEVELS ON PAGE 167
So much speculation, and and errant guessing. It is handled in a few paragraphs but I don't think I should paste the contents of the book here.
Yes, I'm aware that higher level equipment is unavailable to most ordinary citizens, who are primarily 1st level. My point is that even if you only have access to level 1 equipment you can do quite a bit of damage. For example, let's say some insane cultist of Nyarlathotep wants to kill as many random people as possible to further chaos and destruction. Frag grenades are a level 1 item and cost only 35 credits each, so all this would-be mass murderer has to do is walk into their neighborhood weapons shop, purchase a bundle of grenades, and start lobbing them into a dense crowd. Sure, the cultist will be caught by robotic security eventually, but he will have killed dozens of people and wounded even more.
Note that I have been convinced that Absalom Station can't really justify restricting these weapons to much when some people can do the same thing with their minds, I'm just pointing out that the station should have a rather large problem with terrorism given the wide availability of explosives and firearms.
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gun control kills the "have gun, will travel" vibe of space westerns and whatnot.
there's also a practicality issue - it's hard enough in a country, let alone whole planets with no-man's lands and the void between.
then there's the moral issue, if we restrict guns then we gotta start chipping and tracking every caster there is. I'm more Captain American than Tony Stark on this one.
Last note: Daily terrorist attacks are great for the game! just think of all the complex plots and engaging combats it brings. I'd take that over living on the bars of a mad god's cage any day.
Level 1 frag grenades do only 1d6 damage. You would have to roll high on two grenades in order to kill somebody(who is level 1). So between the first grenade and the second everyone on the station either runs to safety or shoots the crap out of the idiot who decided to bring fireworks to a gunfight.EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THE SECTION ON WEAPON LEVELS ON PAGE 167
So much speculation, and and errant guessing. It is handled in a few paragraphs but I don't think I should paste the contents of the book here.
Yes, I'm aware that higher level equipment is unavailable to most ordinary citizens, who are primarily 1st level. My point is that even if you only have access to level 1 equipment you can do quite a bit of damage. For example, let's say some insane cultist of Nyarlathotep wants to kill as many random people as possible to further chaos and destruction. Frag grenades are a level 1 item and cost only 35 credits each, so all this would-be mass murderer has to do is walk into their neighborhood weapons shop, purchase a bundle of grenades, and start lobbing them into a dense crowd. Sure, the cultist will be caught by robotic security eventually, but he will have killed dozens of people and wounded even more.
Note that I have been convinced that Absalom Station can't really justify restricting these weapons to much when some people can do the same thing with their minds, I'm just pointing out that the station should have a rather large problem with terrorism given the wide availability of explosives and firearms.
First, I'm not sure the average citizen of Absalom Station has as many hit points as a PC. Even if they do, this problem can be fairly easily solved by strapping several grenades together. The bundle will be quite difficult to throw, but accuracy isn't particularly important in this scenario.
First, I'm not sure the average citizen of Absalom Station has as many hit points as a PC. Even if they do, this problem can be fairly easily solved by strapping several grenades together. The bundle will be quite difficult to throw, but accuracy isn't particularly important in this scenario.
Historically, putting said bundle by the side of the road & triggering it as a vehicle drives by, or loading up a vehicle with explosives, or leaving several small explosives in different nearby locations is how some terrorists do it.
First, I'm not sure the average citizen of Absalom Station has as many hit points as a PC. Even if they do, this problem can be fairly easily solved by strapping several grenades together. The bundle will be quite difficult to throw, but accuracy isn't particularly important in this scenario.Historically, putting said bundle by the side of the road & triggering it as a vehicle drives by, or loading up a vehicle with explosives, or leaving several small explosives in different nearby locations is how some terrorists do it.
Yeah, that's another problem. With antipersonnel explosives commercially available at reasonable prices and numerous organizations with reasons to want to wreak havoc, Absalom Station would quickly become littered with IEDs. I suppose this could be mitigated with security cameras everywhere, but I'm not sure everyone in this seemingly somewhat libertarian society would be comfortable with that much government surveillance.
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Sarah the Soldier: Dude, what the hell?! I've seen these grenades! They're the ones that make a miniature black hole that explodes into a supernova! Don't you know how *extremely* dangerous these things are?!
Weapon Seller: Sure do! That's why they're called weapons!
Sarah: And you're selling these?! Out in the open!?
Weapon Seller: Two hundred credits a grenade! The perfect way to say "To whom it may concern" out there in the Beyond!
Sarah: I'll take a gross. (buys them)
Samara the Solarion: Sarah? That's 144 grenades!!!
Sarah: I'll be careful! (starts carelessly tossing quantum destabilizer grenades into her backpack)
The Rest of the Team: (suddenly decide they're rather not be on Abasalom Station when Sarah's backpack gets shot and those grenades go off)
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How entertaining is the game going to be if you have to spend half of your wealth by level on permits? Who wants to have to make a Bureaucracy check every time you try to buy new gear each level to keep up your DPR? Come on, it's a scifi western space opera, let it slide. Or hell, regulate it all you want, none of us Chaotic Good "privateers" follow the laws anyway.
"You can't take the sky from me."
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Weapon Seller: Two hundred credits a grenade!
Snerk. Not bloody likely.
You'll pay 3.5 times that for a grenade that has a reasonable chance of killing goblins.