| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if the grenades aren't "military gear" they only cost 35 credits each, and if someone starts tossing them into a crowd of 1st level commoners there are going to be a lot of casualties.Are laser rifles and frag grenades not military gear? Those are both 1st level items, so presumably anyone can buy them, as long as they have the cash. Also, I believe the opening sequences of Incident at Absalom Station are set on the titular station, and I presume the PCs have access to their gear for those encounters, so it seems carrying these weapons on the station is allowed.Restrictions and access are abstracted by your level.
Low level average Joes won't have access to military gear because military gear is higher level.
High level Joes have access to military gear because they're high level, so most likely they're someone of enough repute, with experience under his belt, and connections to buy such gear.
Wimpy grenades and Laser rifles aren't military gear.
The good stuff is military gear.
They only cost 35 credits because it's little more than a homemade bomb made out of nails, detergents, and a glass jar.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Grenades can't be bundled together, if they could be then there is no reason to get frag grenades at level 2+ because of the exponential price growth.
You seem to be trying to force the idea that Absalom must be a nearly constant street battle/terrorist playground just because anyone can buy a gun. Take your example of the Nyarlathotep cultist:
Nyarl's religion is somewhat accepted in the Pact Worlds and gaining popularity because the Elder Mythos worshipers are holding back the Dominion of the Black so it has little to gain from random acts of terrorism.
The idea that randomly slaughtering crowds of civilians leads to destruction and chaos is also wrong. There is certainly a big initial burst of death and anarchy in the wake of such an event, but if something like that happened often enough the Station would implement gun control which in turn leads to a lot of order and peace.
Any Nyarlathotep cultist worth their salt would know to target administrative offices and vital station systems, locations that are sure to have higher security and maybe even restrictions on who can carry weapons in these areas.
The reason bundling grenades together isn't a viable tactic for PCs is that doing so makes them very difficult to throw accurately, and PCs are typically fighting dangerous, mobile enemies, not attacking crowds of civilians. If you're just going to drop the grenades in the middle of a mall and walk away, it doesn't matter if the bundle is hard to throw.
I'm not arguing that Absalom Station would be a constant battleground, I'm just pointing out that when there are plenty of organizations who want the station weak, chaotic, and divided and explosives and firearms are freely available, those organizations are going to use them.
As to your point about Nyarlathotep, I'm curious to hear your source that his worship is "somewhat accepted" and "gaining popularity". In any case, there are plenty of other groups who would benefit from chaos on Absalom Station. Cults of the Devourer are the most obvious example, as their entire religion is based around entropy, destruction, etc. Also, I'm sure both the Dominion of the Black and the Azlanti Star Empire wouldn't be above using these sorts of tactics to weaken the pact worlds, which they would love to conquer, not to mention other terrorist groups and random crackpots.
Finally, I disagree that "The idea that randomly slaughtering crowds of civilians leads to destruction and chaos is also wrong." Beyond the initial devastation, the power of terrorism lies in the reaction it provokes. Terrorist attacks cause people to become more paranoid, xenophobic, etc. As an example, if somebody like the Star Empire or the Dominion wanted to get really clever, they could launch a campaign of suicide bombings in the Pact Worlds carried out entirely by Vesk (most of whom may be mind controlled, but that's beside the point). Prejudice against the Vesk, who the Pact Worlds already barely tolerated skyrockets, and pretty soon two of the greatest obstacles to galactic conquest are again enemies.
rules would have to be REALLY weird as item levels are not an in-universe thing.
Aren't they? They kind of have to be for people to only sell level appropriate equipment.
rules would have to be REALLY weird as item levels are not an in-universe thing.Aren't they? They kind of have to be for people to only sell level appropriate equipment.
In that case, how do people tell what your in-universe level is so they can sell you that level appropriate equipment? Heck, why isn't there a thriving black market hooking low level but wealthy people up with high tier guns?
I think the 'Only selling level appropriate equipment' thing is just a gameplay thing rather than an in-universe one.
|
rules would have to be REALLY weird as item levels are not an in-universe thing.Aren't they? They kind of have to be for people to only sell level appropriate equipment.In that case, how do people tell what your in-universe level is so they can sell you that level appropriate equipment? Heck, why isn't there a thriving black market hooking low level but wealthy people up with high tier guns?
I think the 'Only selling level appropriate equipment' thing is just a gameplay thing rather than an in-universe one.
No, it's in-universe. Read p. 167. The higher level items are more difficult and expensive to make, as well as requiring more contacts/legal permissions to own.
They specifically note that the level thing is just an abstraction so you don't have to keep track of all your licenses, weapons dealers, and assorted stuff like that.
Sidearms would be a thing, unarmed combatants would have an occasional chance to shine, and Solarions' ability to manifest energy weapons suddenly wouldn't seem so inferior.
But Noooooze! Mah XXXX build has a right to shine in every single scenario!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're never going to arrive at which path is the better solution in the game. By default, in an imaginary setting, the best solution will be the one the writer/GM/whatever decides is the best solution.
There's an inherent bias in the system.
I'd imagine Absalom Station would have an interest in limiting things that could blow a hole in the statiin's hull at least in the more affluent parts.
I also imagine what weapons were allowed would depend a lot on status as well aslocation. A noble with a mono-molecular dueling sword would cause fewer heads to turn than a peasant with an assult rifle.
Which might or might not be right, but make any comparisob with RL Earth pointless.Not completely pointless though, because it uncovers the issue of two sides arguing opposite solutions to the same problem. Too many criminals! Guns are too easy to get (or...) More guns make us safer. Same here. Too many alien threats? One said says "too easy for cultists to get guns!" and the other side says "only good guys with guns can stop cultists!"
It's similar, but the threat is different. So a given society (in RL, a city, state or country; in SF, a given world) can have a different decision on which path is the more effective solution to the problem.
I think terrorist nihilist groups of cultists being able to walk into buildings with rocket launchers, without anyone flinching an eye because it is legal and normal to do so, would change things.
Again, this is not really comparable to carrying a concealed gun for self defense vs a criminal who also carry a concealed small arm to commit a crime. We are talking about people walking in the streets with powered armors and plasma cannons, and actually blending into the crowd because others also carry high-tech military grade armors and weapons, including artillery.
Do you think real world riot police would be ok with protesters carrying rocket launchers, swat-style personal armor, and machine guns? And that's before we take in account that protesters are not even close to even resemble a terrorist group of mad cultists who believe every sentient life in the universe must be destroyed.
Also, notice that the OP did not say that the PC and other law-abbiding citizens carrying weapons would not help to fight those groups. It might very well be the case. His point is that open firefights with military grade weapons would be common, and regardless of who win, those kind of fights tend to have collateral damage.
PS: my own possition about the issue is that, in a world where some people can snap two fingers and command the power of the cosmos to summon a giant fireball, banning grenade launchers don't really help, and probably allowing normal citizens to carry heavy weapons will help them to feel safe vs mystics and technomancers.
Having recently gotten ahold of the rulebook PDF, I was reading over the weapons section when a thought struck me: shouldn't the Pact Worlds, a technologically advanced and socially modern society, have some restrictions on the purchase of military-grade weaponry? As it is, it seems that any citizen can buy assault rifles, grenades, etc. fairly easily. This problem is exacerbated by the existence of fanatically hostile organizations such as the Cult of the Devourer. Am I missing something, or should Absalom Station be constantly plagued by mass shootings and suicide bombings by Devourer cultists and other crackpots?
Pretty sure that each city and spaceport have security control and guards that check weapons and cargo. You can also have a license system to own and use a firearm.
Weapons and armor restrictions are nice, because it adds interesting role playing challenges.
Laws will also be different at different places, but in most places a non-citizen at what ever location, especially a visitor entering on temporary visa, will almost never be permitted to carry weapons.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to point out that both call weapon and glamoured weapon are level 1 infusions. Without true seeing and dimensional barriers on tap for every single security checkpoint, they aren't stopping anything.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My personal interpretation is that the Pact Worlds are "Open Carry" due to the recently ended war with the Veskarium. Several battles in a that war took place on the Pact Worlds, and it was decided that allowing everyone to openly carry laser pistols was a lesser evil than leaving them defenseless against marauding space lizards who could strike any time, anywhere. Even though that war is now over, that law has been around long enough that people don't really question it anymore.
My personal interpretation is that the Pact Worlds are "Open Carry" due to the recently ended war with the Veskarium. Several battles in a that war took place on the Pact Worlds, and it was decided that allowing everyone to openly carry laser pistols was a lesser evil than leaving them defenseless against marauding space lizards who could strike any time, anywhere. Even though that war is now over, that law has been around long enough that people don't really question it anymore.
Even though the Vesk war has ended, with all of the exploring going on, there's no telling what new threats the Pact Worlds may face in the near future.
It's entirely possible they are lenient internally as a purely defensive measure against external threats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I think that if the AP is anything to go by Absalom Station is run by lunatics since no one with any degree of sanity allows projectile weapons into the hands of gang members on a space station no matter how thick the walls supposedly are and if you have to seal the station and go level by level to confiscate guns you do just that.
There are a lot of legitimate reasons to wonder about weapon control in the Pact Worlds in general but if you're GM'ing and have an issue with players wandering around with a rail gun in a civilized area my advice is to let your players know that in advance so they can plan for it and institute a weapon "check-in" system at places like Absalom Station.
Your PCs might be able to buy a reaction cannon at the convenience store on 6 while they're buying slushies and beef jerky but it gets delivered to their ship in a sealed customs crate and it doesn't come out or the PC gets hard labor. This means that magic-wielding PCs/NPCs could have an advantage in surprise combat but that's the way it is in your game.
However keep in mind that the world of Starfinder is a lot more dangerous than our world so gun control in any context might be seen entirely differently from how we see it.
For me any Starfinder games I run will work on the theory that if it's OK for NPC A to have a reaction cannon it's ok for PC B too - but I'll be very surprised if in at least one Paizo product there isn't a world/station/adventure where PC's are expected to check their hardware at the door.
Personally I think that if the AP is anything to go by Absalom Station is run by lunatics since no one with any degree of sanity allows projectile weapons into the hands of gang members on a space station no matter how thick the walls supposedly are and if you have to seal the station and go level by level to confiscate guns you do just that.
Absalom Station would have to have been built by lunatics if it's walls and/or atmospheric containment fields/etc are weak enough to be punctured by man-portable weaponry. Really they ought to be strong enough to be completely impervious to such weaponry. Anything less would be like a battleship captain being worried about fleas biting holes in his hull.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's entirely possible they are lenient internally as a purely defensive measure against external threats.
You never know what some random ship might drag to Absalom Station from the Drift anyways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the key difference is the way a society evolves as it moves farther away from resource scarcity and towards enlightenment. Modern problems with gun crime are not really comparable to a sci-fi universe where space ships are common. Resource gathering and distribution is much more efficient thanks to technology and magic, which means that there are far fewer people that are willing to resort to violence as a means of survival or getting ahead.
A better quality of life means fewer people will be desperate to commit crimes, fewer people that place little to no value on sentient beings, and fewer people that would risk the freedoms they enjoy by pulling a gun for all but the most important reasons.
I think the key difference is the way a society evolves as it moves farther away from resource scarcity and towards enlightenment. Modern problems with gun crime are not really comparable to a sci-fi universe where space ships are common. Resource gathering and distribution is much more efficient thanks to technology and magic, which means that there are far fewer people that are willing to resort to violence as a means of survival or getting ahead.
A better quality of life means fewer people will be desperate to commit crimes, fewer people that place little to no value on sentient beings, and fewer people that would risk the freedoms they enjoy by pulling a gun for all but the most important reasons.
Well, this is Science Fantasy, so I guess that might be true. I doubt it would work in real life.
They also might more heavily restrict pistols than they do rifles due to concealment issues.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Glamered fusions disguise weapons from detection by observation (except True Seeing) and only cost 120 credits. Everyone probably walks around with duplicate technological devices or tools hanging from their belt that everyone suspects are actually guns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With Absalom station populated with a bunch of Golarion ex-pats, it's possible that they took the Six River Freedoms as the basis for their society, rather than a monolithic, large nation-state (such as Cheliax). Especially after the android revolts.
While technology can increase the coercive power of a government, when that technology is widespread and commonplace it reduces the gap in power between the government and the citizens. Which is why one of the first things that oppressive regimes do is restrict technology (especially weapons, but also medical care and access to knowledge): It increases the government's coercive power relative to the population.
In a society such as Starfinder, where technology and knowledge are so widespread (for instance, think of what it would be like today if everyone could use a 3D printer to make whatever they wanted for the cost of raw materials plus a slight use fee*), it would be extremely difficult for an oppressive regime to maintain power over a population of the same type of creatures. A significant inherent difference in power between the "ruling class" and the "peons," such as dragons ruling humanoids, may reduce the difficulty of maintaining power; even then, however, it would be difficult unless the "ruling class" has a large enough population to balance out the (most often) much larger numbers of the "peons" (and there's no guarantee that powerful outside interests won't get involved).
*- Which is effectively what happens with UBPs; the use-fee is already included in the value
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here are my thoughts on this:
The Pact Worlds have, within living memory, fought a number of fairly devastating wars, and the outbreaks of new wars are entirely possible. Thus, most governments will probably encourage citizens to be proficient with weapons and practice with them on a regular basis - this gives them a greater reserve of people they can draft once the shooting does start. That being said, not all weapons are equal and not all are equally acceptable in all circumstances. Here is my best guess:
Ranged Weapons:
Single-shot sidearms (pistols and the like): Unexceptionable under most circumstances, except in ultra-secure or ultra-formal settings or where there is a real danger of damaging highly sensitive equipment (the bulkheads of most space stations - including Absalom Station should not be easily penetrable by random shots, but the guts of the local life support systems might be another matter). Plasma and similar weapons might also be restricted in areas with fire hazards.
Single-shot longarms (rifles and the like): Unproblematic in "frontiers" and similar areas where attacks by monsters, bandits and the like might not be necessarily common, but are always a possibility.
Automatic weapons: Generally only acceptable in military-controlled regions or where attacks by hostile entities occur on a regular basis, since there is a lot of risk for collateral damage. Plasma weapons will be seen with suspicion for much the same reason.
Explosives: Like automatic weapons, acceptable only in areas where attacks are frequent - since those can cause a lot of collateral damage.
Melee weapons: Knifes can be classified similar to sidearms - besides using them for protection, they are also common tools (especially in frontier regions) Larger melee weapons (such as swords) generally say one of two things about their user:
- "I have put in serious work at dealing out violence up close and personal" (since it takes a lot more training to become proficient with them than simple sidearms), or
- "I am a violent thug who relishes carving up others up close".
Such melee weapons likely have a similar legal standing to single-shot longarms, but wearers will be viewed with more suspicion since they might belong into the second category. It probably helps to wear a "uniform" of sorts - whether of some formal military, knightly order, or something that says "I am a professional bodyguard", since that will make people more inclined to believe the former of them.
So, how should GMs use weapon control in their game? Here are my thoughts on this:
- First of all, don't use weapon control to screw the PCs over! If the PCs have to hand over their weapons before being allowed into a certain facility, then restrict the weapons the bad guys have access to as well. Perhaps their attempt at smuggling weapons in can be discovered by the PCs (in which case they get to use the contraband for the fight), or they might be as limited in what they can bear as the PCs. Furthermore, if the PCs hand their weapons over, make sure that they get them back from the owners afterwards. Otherwise the PCs will constantly focus on how to smuggle their favorite toys into adventure locations, which will likely derail the adventures.
- Secondly, make the past actions of the PCs count how much this is enforced. If the PCs constantly use weapons to defend others, then the authorities should cut them a lot more slack:
"Grenades are not allowed in here!
Oh, wait, it's you! I saw that vid of you blowing up that purple worm threatening our colony with them! Oh sure, go ahead - I am sure you won't misuse them!"
(Of course, that means that the authorities will likely come to the PCs with their problems - to which I say: "Adventure plots!")
On the other hand, if the PCs constantly show poor impulse control and constantly cause large-scale mayhem (like, say, the average Shadowrun player character), then the authorities will be a lot less forgiving and ask them a lot of questions about what precisely they intend to use those weapons for.
My personal preferred approach would not be to deny the PCs their weapons, but force the more "respectable" player characters to sign papers stating that they are held liable for the actions of their more impulsive comrades. This way, the party can police its own.
To sum it up: Yes, some form of weapon control will exist in various places, but it should be used appropriately - it can make for interesting complications, but not deprive the PCs of their toys all the time.
Again, look at the glamered fusion. It costs 120 credits, hides your weapon as anything that looks the same size, and can only be detected by True Seeing. Gun control simply cannot work by design until half the cops are 16th level spellcasters.
The equilibrium is to not bother controlling weapon carry because you're better off seeing the gun everyone is carrying and punishing use rather than failing to effectively punish possession and never knowing who has a comm unit clipped to their belt and who has a pistol.
Again, look at the glamered fusion. It costs 120 credits, hides your weapon as anything that looks the same size, and can only be detected by True Seeing. Gun control simply cannot work by design until half the cops are 16th level spellcasters.
The equilibrium is to not bother controlling weapon carry because you're better off seeing the gun everyone is carrying and punishing use rather than failing to effectively punish possession and never knowing who has a comm unit clipped to their belt and who has a pistol.
I could see Glamered being VERY illegal for exactly that reason.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could see Glamered being VERY illegal for exactly that reason.
Kind of like this:
Undetectable Firearms ActWon't stop anyone having a plastic gun, but it adds to your sentence if you're found with one. Which means you're going to really hesitate to use it in most cases.
Wouldn't be in effect in all places, but I can certainly see some places having a similar law regarding glamered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cyberpunk rules.
Just make sure you don't flash your guns at the sec.
|
|
I could see Glamered being VERY illegal for exactly that reason.Again, look at the glamered fusion. It costs 120 credits, hides your weapon as anything that looks the same size, and can only be detected by True Seeing. Gun control simply cannot work by design until half the cops are 16th level spellcasters.
The equilibrium is to not bother controlling weapon carry because you're better off seeing the gun everyone is carrying and punishing use rather than failing to effectively punish possession and never knowing who has a comm unit clipped to their belt and who has a pistol.
If there's heavy gun control? Sure. But that's a completely unenforceable law given that only True Seeing would catch people breaking it.
Frankly, such a law would be very stupid, which doesn't mean it couldn't occur, but does mean you don't have to justify it not existing.