| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{. . .}
If you want to combine Witch and Wizard with Pathfinder Unchained Variant Multiclassing (note: not allowed in PFS last time I checked), you could get good use out of going Witch VMC Wizard(*), but DON'T try to go Wizard VMC Witch. VMC Witch is just bad in every way, because your Hexes are stuck at a level way below your actual level (even stuck at 1st level for a long time). Only the arguably even worse badness of VMC Gunslinger saves VMC Witch from being the absolute worst VMC ever.(*)For instance, Witch with the Elements Patron can be a decent Evoker substitute, and gets even better if you add VMC Wizard (Evoker:Admixturer) -- say goodbye to a lot of Elemental Energy Resistance/Immunities. Or for real cheese, go for the Winter Witch archetype (unfortunately doesn't allow the Elements Patron), and then use the same VMC Wizard to get back your ability to deal Fire damage (although if you thereafter go for the Winter Witch prestige class, you eventually won't need this nearly as much).
{. . .}
If you are going to go Witch VMC Wizard, you should use an archetype that replaces the Witch's Familiar, if you can make good use of it. If not, reportedly your Witch's Familiar levels at double speed (instead of getting a 2nd Familiar when VMC Wizard gives you a Familiar), which isn't nothing, but not the best use of the feat expense of VMC.
Can a witch beat a two handed fighter in a fight at level 8?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. They can also lose. It depends mainly on the setup and possibly on luck.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean unles this two handed fighter also invested in archery fly beats him at that level...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Of course, you know, it IS possible to choose your Hexes incorrectly . . . .
Sure, but if you listen to the gallery and take Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle then you're bound to be fine whatever else you take (advanced version: Also consider anything else that works with cackle.)
This a lot simpler to learn and process than "how to prepare spells."
Anyone who picked the wrong hexes has basically no hope of picking the right spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean unles this two handed fighter also invested in archery fly beats him at that level...
The fighter could have the mutation warrior archetype, in which case it could have flight by then.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean unless this two handed fighter also invested in archery fly beats him at that level...The fighter could have the mutation warrior archetype, in which case it could have flight by then.
It puts the potion on its skin or it gets hosed again.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I meant a two handed fighter archetype because we have one in our other campaign and he destroys everything in one or two rounds with his reach/cleave/greater cleave/etc. I don't see how a witch who takes three rounds to get off on her hexes could contribute to a party the way a two handed fighter can.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't take 3 rounds to use a hex..
also Evil eye and Misfortune are both deeply powerful effects on their own. Don't just use them for slumber.
and a two handed archetype focusing on two handed would indeed lose to a witch who could cast fly or had the flight hex so long as they don't stand right next to eachother to start with.
Also witch optimized for slumber will probably beat his save anyway.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see how a witch who takes three rounds to get off on her hexes could contribute to a party the way a two handed fighter can.
If you're solely focused on combat, witch may not be the class you're looking for. But, overall, a witch can contribute so much more to a party than a fighter. However, they are not big on damage at all. A comparison with a 2-H fighter is pretty meaningless, to be honest. Totally different functions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People have already mentioned that hexes are newbie friendly as they don't run out but another great benefit which I don't think has been mentioned is that they are often supernatural abilities which means that hexes don't provoke attacks of opportunity, don't require concentration checks, are not subject to spell resistance cannot be dispelled.
If playing a witch it's worth considering how likely your GM is to kill your familiar. Since the witch's familiar is also their spellbook if you have a GM who'll target it you should consider an archetype that swaps it for something else.
If it's damage dealing you're after you'd probably be better with a sorcerer. I'm playing a witch (half-orc level 6 hedge/herb witch/ a few homebrew fixes) and the only directly damaging spell I have is Burning Gaze but I still have plenty to do in and out of combat.
Indeed I'm having considerable difficulty wrapping by head around how it is you cannot see how a witch can contribute to the party. Yes our two handed barbarian can do lots of damage and gets the most kills but I've saved that barbarian's life as well as the lives of others, I've cured all manner of aliments, I put a chimera to sleep mid flight, I've inspired enslaved loggers to rebel, I've spoken with the dead, I've freed a man from spore based mental compulsion, I've drained the strength from my enemies and transferred it to my allies, I've blinded, cursed and crippled people though I've only killed about three. They were insectoid winged cultists I duelled in the air as the rest of the party battled the aforementioned chimera below. So while I can't match the damage output of the barbarian I'm certainly not struggling for ways to contribute to the party.
I do believe there's a witch archetype that replaces hexes with an elemental blast attack. No idea if it's any good but it could be fun.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Big number dps = just play a barbarian, take power attack, max strength, use a two-handed weapon, preferably a falchion or greatsword either way. Other feats and abilities don't matter, here you go.
At least if you are looking for big number dps...that's what you play.
The thing you will quickly realize in pathfinder, it doesn't matter if the enemy has 1 or 100 hp, it can still take full round actions and operate normally. So enemy stays lethal all the time.
Even unconscious is not enough on some monsters due to negative hp (monsters with regeneration).
Witches and battlefield controller, compared to martial instead of doing "tons of damage" simply disable the threat, actually changing the tides of a battle or debuff an enemy, so it is easier to deal with.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I meant a two handed fighter archetype because we have one in our other campaign and he destroys everything in one or two rounds with his reach/cleave/greater cleave/etc. I don't see how a witch who takes three rounds to get off on her hexes could contribute to a party the way a two handed fighter can.
It's always amazing to me how the "class v. class one on one" (a situation that almost never comes up naturally in the course of play) always comes up in threads with someone asking if X can beat the fighter, when the fighter is in fact one of the worst options period in this sort of thing.
The fighter does great at hitting things, doing damage, and having a high AC. Early on in the game, that's more or less all that matters, so it's understandable that people get the impression that the fighter is great (I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the fighter, it was my first D&D class.)
What the Witch does, possibly better than anybody, is completely wreck whatever the most dangerous thing in the fight is. Sometimes that's a lot more useful than mowing down popcorn, and it's definitely better suited to a one on one arena fight. But here's the thing, a witch loves having a fighter in the party because the fighter can quickly dispatch whatever the witch incapacitates, and a fighter loves having a witch in the party because the witch can incapacitate whatever target poses the most threat to the fighter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I meant a two handed fighter archetype because we have one in our other campaign and he destroys everything in one or two rounds with his reach/cleave/greater cleave/etc. I don't see how a witch who takes three rounds to get off on her hexes could contribute to a party the way a two handed fighter can.It's always amazing to me how the "class v. class one on one" (a situation that almost never comes up naturally in the course of play) always comes up in threads with someone asking if X can beat the fighter, when the fighter is in fact one of the worst options period in this sort of thing.
And that kind of competition also fails to account for support characters.
Witches work best when they team up with another caster. Evil eye still tanks an enemy's saves, even if it is saved against (the save just reduces duration to 1 round... which means little since you can do the job in 1 round, and cackle hex can extend anyway). With evil eye, even a moderately invested 6 level caster (as in 14 stat) can reliably get off their spells.
A witch means you can get other casters to go to 'fairly good chance' or 'guaranteed' with their Save of Suck spells.
This is great, since two characters can pretty much 'turn off' an enemy in a single round. But that is only 'great' when you have the extra action economy of having other casters. Thus, a witch 1 on 1 might not be quite as impressive, since they would have to wait at least one extra round to get their standard actions back to properly hit you with a nasty effect after evil eye. That is, of course, time that a great sword wielding fighter would close in and smack her to death.
Bards are similar- they are 'decent' in melee, but they only really shine when you have a party that can take advantage of inspire courage.
^Yeah, if you want somebody geared for fighting 1 on 1 using magic, a Magus (including Hexcrafter Magus) would be more the way to go, at least until you can get to the high levels where you can start doing crazy things with Quicken Spell (which a Magus can also do eventually, but isn't as good at, for obvious reasons).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I had to compare a witch to a melee build, it would be the person with TWF kukris and butterfly sting- they are designed not to be great on their own, but to let the guy with the big ol' ax to get a guaranteed crit.
^Although, you gotta admit, somebody with Two-Weapon Fighting wielding kukris and the proper other supporting feats, class features, and ability scores is probably not too shabby on their own . . . .
wounding kukris, death by a thousand cuts ... nasty.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Although, you gotta admit, somebody with Two-Weapon Fighting wielding kukris and the proper other supporting feats, class features, and ability scores is probably not too shabby on their own . . . .
Oh yeah, and a witch with ice tomb or slumb hexes isn't shabby either.
Still, you want that sweet, sweet butterfly sting. Because you are comparing a 1 handed light weapon with a x2 critical versus a big, chunky two handed weapon with a x4 critical (so it might get near x6 since you are getting x1.5 bonuses).
TWF is about getting a lot of small hits that add up. 2 handing is more focused on one big hit. So when you can just up and choose which single hit to crit on, you want the one that does more on a single hit.
This is especially true since butterfly sting in essence lets you give your crit range over to your ally for no other cost- which means they can focus on a weapon that trades crit range for crit modifier.
If I am to tie this back to witches- your party's wizard is picking SoS spells that trade off guaranteed effects in return for getting one really nasty effect when it hits. The witch's debuff is practically giving that SoS an natural 20 critical hit.