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Alignment threads are popular now, but I feel like this is more of an aesthetics thread anyway so I post it without regret.
A topic that's been contentious in our few sessions is that a person later on down in the GMing rotaton has expressed an interest in running an evil campaign. Opinions on this run the gamut from "enthused" to "vehement opposition" roughly split down the middle on Y/N. My personal position is best summed up by "I simply do not understand why that would be fun."
In my 25+ years in this hobby I have never sat down to come up with a character, thought about "who is this person and what are they like? What motivates them and what do they care about?" come up with answers and thought both "this person sounds like a fun character to roleplay" and "this is an evil person." I've played LE in the past, and I think it worked out well, but that was in a "save the world" sort of situation where the consequences of the LE character's actions were ultimately heroic (even if ignobly motivated). Still, I didn't find inhabiting those characters to be all that pleasant an experience. I enjoy playing up the villains when I'm GMing, but that villainy is mitigated by an expectation that this person is supposed to lose and receive their (hopefully ironic) comeuppance in the end. But why is it fun to be a horrible person who does not receive said comeuppance?
I understand the appeal of "you can play classes/archetypes that you don't normally get to play" (even though I think an "antipaladin" or a "serial killer" sounds like a super boring thing to play), but I guess I don't really see any appeal in the transgressive nature of the act? I've played plenty of games where you play literal horrific monsters (vampires and the like) but part of the conceit of those games is that you're expected to wrestle with the consequences of your actions and try to retain some level of humanity, clarity, or decency despite the things you do-- you're a monster but you're a conflicted monster; you may suspect the things you've done are unforgivable but you retain some hope that they're not.
I really don't get the appeal of playing a monster who's not conflicted; one who knows they're evil (because "evil" is a real thing in this game) and who has no problem with that. I guess you could run a subjective morality game, but that kinda defeats the purpose of an "evil" game? So I guess I don't get it, so maybe I can crowdsource some kind of understanding of it? I really don't like the idea of hurting innocent people, even if they're imaginary people, so maybe this is a personal problem.
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I'm in a similar boat to you, minus the curiosity about why people like to play evil characters. One motivation is that they can simply run amok. I think that is a major draw of evil games, you can do whatever you want, without any real consequences, and the in game consequences are part of the story. I think you are mostly referring to all evil games, but some character concepts are simply evil in nature. One of the concepts I have that I really want to play is a LE diabolist (devil binding PrC, not sure if I got the name right), one of my favorite characters, but he could never work as anything else, with or without alignment restrictions. I don't think I completely addressed your question, but that is most of my understanding.
What's so fun about playing good? Lawful? Chaotic?
The character I enjoyed the most was my NE assassin, who was strangely the nicest person in our group of otherwise neutral-CG. He was a professional that only took jobs that interested him. As long as you weren't his target and weren't trying to hurt him he was an ok person that kept his word and played nice with others. Cross him or get on his 'naughty' list though and all bets were off.
So there was no 'conflict' to worry about. No innocents to worry about. If he killed you, you'd done something to him [no matter how slight it may have been].
What's so fun about playing good? Lawful? Chaotic?
For me, it works like "you sit down and you come up with a person and a history, and a set of values, and so on, then you figure out if that person sounds fun to roleplay, and then you figure out what alignment best describes that person."
And while that process has come up with a wide variety of alignments, it virtually never comes up as "evil."
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I've always been someone who's routed for the bad guys in movies, I often find good characters asanign, boring unthinking self righteous morons who win because they're goodies.
When bad is having a goal that society doesn't agree with coming up with a maticulous plan and achieving that goal. Running ruff shot over the right thing to do because being in the right holds literally 0 strategic value to you as long as you can stay off the radar and trying to stay in the good column makes so many extra steps literally because if you don't do them, other people will think you are bad is fun to me. Ruthless efficiency and laughing at people who say but but but be a goodie is a fun character to inhabit.
I have a necromancer whose end goal is to rule a necropolis which is recognised as a real nation, even if she has to make herself a "villain" and her necropolis the hub of a super power to do it. I've never been high enough level to do that but when I have played her she started building a reputation as an efficient no nonesense magic user with goals she did not feel the need to share with her party but was happy to help them so long as they helped and protected her.
She had two cloaked large giants fast zombies (can't remember which type) cloaked with long black robes whose faces she'd flayed, when people denied her things one of her "boys" would lift them off the ground and she would pull back the hood revealing their flayed rotting flesh where their face should be and ask if they wanted to end up like that. She very rarely had to actually hurt anyone.
She was a f!%&ing Blast to play she wasn't concerned with being good and it was liberating, do I want to peal back people's faces to achieve my goal of being a dictator? No, did I enjoy pretending to be that way inclined for a while? Heck yeah.
I've made 20 characters 5 of them are good, 4 of them are evil, the rest sit somewhere in the neutral category.
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To me it's about exploring different moralities, motivations, philosophies...
And also an exercise of thought about what has the character taken to take that path. Greed? Selfishness? Education?
What redeemable qualities does the character have?
Nobody sees themselves as evil, so how does the characters justify themselves to think they are the good guys?
To me, all alignments have their different interesting points of view and I like exploring all of them.
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Tammy loved puppies.
Nobody sees themselves as evil, so how does the characters justify themselves to think they are the good guys?
This, to me, is sort of the problem. Since "Detect Evil" (and similar) are level 1 spells available to a variety of classes. If you're an evil person who can cast that spell, you can scan yourself and say "yes, I am apparently evil." What sort of person, though, receives that information and does not decide "Well, I had better shape up and be a better person. I didn't think I was *evil* but I guess I've gone too far."
"I believe that I am in the right" doesn't really work when evil is a tangible, objectively knowable thing like it is in the default Metaphysics for Pathfinder, does it? You could maintain a "right is wrong and wrong is right!" sort of perspective, but it seems like your character should draw some kind of line somewhere (the absolute worst villains wouldn't make good PCs would they?) so that's not especially internally consistent.
Which is to say, whenever I come up with a "might be evil" character I consider the lines that they draw for "past this point it's not okay" and see if I can't put them squarely into neutrality instead.
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Tammy doesn't divine herself, she prefers a bit of mystery.
Tammy is also a big fan of plausible deniability.
Nobody sees themselves as evil, so how does the characters justify themselves to think they are the good guys?This, to me, is sort of the problem. Since "Detect Evil" (and similar) are level 1 spells available to a variety of classes. If you're an evil person who can cast that spell, you can scan yourself and say "yes, I am apparently evil." What sort of person, though, receives that information and does not decide "Well, I had better shape up and be a better person. I didn't think I was *evil* but I guess I've gone too far."
"I believe that I am in the right" doesn't really work when evil is a tangible, objectively knowable thing like it is in the default Metaphysics for Pathfinder, does it? You could maintain a "right is wrong and wrong is right!" sort of perspective, but it seems like your character should draw some kind of line somewhere (the absolute worst villains wouldn't make good PCs would they?) so that's not especially internally consistent.
Which is to say, whenever I come up with a "might be evil" character I consider the lines that they draw for "past this point it's not okay" and see if I can't put them squarely into neutrality instead.
That character can revolve against the concept of evil and don't think that evil is wrong, just a different philosophy.
Yes, you might detect as evil, but what does that imply? Narrowminded people can say that it is a wrong or bad thing, but why should you believe them? Maybe they are disqualifying you because of pure fear or misunderstanding.
It doesn't necessarily imply that the character thinks that «right is wrong and wrong is right». They could believe that good people can be good, but people that detect as evil are not necessarily worse.
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Spells like detect evil are simple magic, easily tricked or blocked you think I trust the magic of a puny apprentice to divine my inner most motivations and the workings of my soul? Pah
(I tried to make an evil Durgon alias but I think the sight nearly died xD)
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1. You get to use the whole rulebook (all those evil aligned spells and good aligned monsters).
2. If there is an annoying npc in the mod who is crucial to the plot, he can have a nasty end, and the pcs can be challenged to find another route to the plot.
3. You have just about all the solutions open to good guys, plus a lot more.
4. Everyone is a potential enemy or ally.
5. I have played in a lot of evil campaigns and in way it brings the characters closer in a way, as often it feels the whole world is against you.
6. Summoning demons, devils and using undead gives you tools that easily overcome certain challenges; and make certain challenges even harder, so stretching everyone brains.
7. It is just different. This is good
Tammy doesn't divine herself, she prefers a bit of mystery.
Tammy is also a big fan of plausible deniability.
Tammy also seems to forget which alt she's on. ;)
Tammy also seems to forget which alt she's on. ;)Tammy doesn't divine herself, she prefers a bit of mystery.
Tammy is also a big fan of plausible deniability.
Tammy never forgets.
one who knows they're evil (because "evil" is a real thing in this game) and who has no problem with that.
Objective Evil is a real thing in PF, but not everyone knows everyone else's objective alignment. Until 5th level (all through childhood most likely, and possibly even through old age) most people do not detect as evil with magic. And after that point, many evil people wouldn't want to know that the dozen atrocities they committed in the righteous name of (gods/nations/lords/whatever) were wrong. Because then they would have to accept their alignment, and would know that they should change themselves. And change is hard* so its easier to simply assume that you are not in the wrong. So, just because evil is objective and measurable doesn't mean everyone is strong enough to measure themselves and see where they pop up on the 9x9 grid.
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My NSFW shorthand answer for evil's appeal.
Sometimes, after a day of taking crap from the wider world, it's liberating to play someone supremely selfish- and capable of getting away with it.
They can also be fun studies in character dynamics- Our group has included a Lawful Evil Red Mantis Assassin who took a sabbatical because his Chaotic Good Desna-worshipping Oracle sister was locked up in an asylum. He may have been evil, but he loved his sister, and he damn sure wasn't going to leave her locked up somewhere. With that said, he also never, ever told her exactly what he did to spring her, because he knew it would just upset her, and he didn't feel like having that argument. He was loyal (to his family, friends, and to the Red Mantis), brave, and capable. He also firmly believed that the ends justified the means, that threats and murder were a more efficient way to deal with recalcitrant sorts than gentle persuasion, and that mercy was abject stupidity. He was never going to betray the party, and he would have died in his sister's defense, but pretty much anyone else was fair game.
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Tammy just wants to kill dwarves.
Is that really so bad.
... Until 5th level (all through childhood most likely, and possibly even through old age) most people do not detect as evil with magic. And after that point, many evil people wouldn't want to know that the dozen atrocities they committed in the righteous name of (gods/nations/lords/whatever) were wrong.
...
That's not quite true. See Alignment can do it from 1st level. A wizard can sus out their alignment in under 10 days by just prepping See Alignment once per day.
And then there's the whole "these pesky adventurers cast protection from Evil, and it blocked my charm spell" thing. When your opponents start bringing anti-evil tools to fight you, then that should be a little bit of a tip off.
That's the kind of take on evil alignment that I find so interesting to explore, Cole. That sounds like an awesome and complex character.
... Until 5th level (all through childhood most likely, and possibly even through old age) most people do not detect as evil with magic. And after that point, many evil people wouldn't want to know that the dozen atrocities they committed in the righteous name of (gods/nations/lords/whatever) were wrong.
...That's not quite true. See Alignment can do it from 1st level. A wizard can sus out their alignment in under 10 days by just prepping See Alignment once per day.
And then there's the whole "these pesky adventurers cast protection from Evil, and it blocked my charm spell" thing. When your opponents start bringing anti-evil tools to fight you, then that should be a little bit of a tip off.
Huh, never noticed see alignment. Never mind on that aspect (though its still plausible an evil character never tried it IMO).
As for protection from evil, that does require enemies to be actively using it against you, when you could observe it being cast. Which isn't necessarily going to happen (especially if you are not an enchanter/summoner).
What's so fun about playing good? Lawful? Chaotic?For me, it works like "you sit down and you come up with a person and a history, and a set of values, and so on, then you figure out if that person sounds fun to roleplay, and then you figure out what alignment best describes that person."
And while that process has come up with a wide variety of alignments, it virtually never comes up as "evil."
For me I come up with a character idea: I then figure out what mechanics get me there: I then fill in the blanks of background and such. So, alignment might come up in step one, two or three.
If you process of character making has never made it to evil, maybe you're thinking a bit narrowly or you're unwilling to stretch outside your comfort zone. It's hard for me to comprehend how you can come up with 0% concepts that would be interesting while being evil.
Maybe the issue is with how you see evil. What do you think of when you think of an evil character? Your run of the mill evil character isn't sacrificing virgins in the backyard...
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"I believe that I am in the right" doesn't really work when evil is a tangible, objectively knowable thing like it is in the default Metaphysics for Pathfinder, does it?
Sure it does. Just because 'Evil' exists as a thing in Pathfinder does not mean the character believes that it is actually 'evil'. That's just propaganda from the 'Good' side. The 'established order' wants to claim the moral high ground.
Just look at any alignment discussion for examples.
If you're an experienced GM, you have to build a taste for making evil fun.
I've played many evil characters over the years.
Each one has its own charm.
One was a tragic character (Human Cleric of Knowledge & Trickery) who dreamed of being a hero like the ones of legend, but was a slave to his murderous urges. He tried to be heroic but at best became a Dexter rip-off who "sacrificed his own soul" to pave the path to heroism for his younger brother.
One was exposed to a dimension beyond the cosmology, and believed the cosmos was an abomination that should be purged. He obsessed over ending all existence and seeked ever more power to eventually bring that reality into this one and end it all. The lives of others had no value, except as amusement and (in the case of the party) tools.
One was a Drow Noble in a party of Drow Nobles, who saw his party as the new master race. He loved the fun of misleading and lying to others, even his own friends, because being unpredictable made him feel like he had power. His ambition was to climb ever higher, up the bloody ladder of nobility with his party. The more mayhem and terror, the better his own reputation.
The appeal of these characters is in seeing just how far they can get before they fall. As villains, I want them to reach for their goals and be defeated in the end.
I see this so often. I really wonder where this particular myth started. Yes, there are absolutely people who know that what they do is evil - they make no justification. They also aren't insane. In fact, they are much more terrifying than the unhinged psychopath of pop culture. These are people who fully understand the weight of their actions, appreciate the value of life and love, and yet willingly chose to ignore every moral impulse they have to satisfy whatever drives them. A true psychopath cannot experience empathy for another creature. But what's more chilling than someone who can feel empathy, but chooses not to?Evil is not banal. Evil is the callous impulse to put the self before all others, consequences be damned. Some evil people might delude themselves; others might be nuts. But then there are the subtle ones. The ones who might not take pleasure from hurting or killing, but will absolutely resort to it should the situation call for it. Cross them and you will die. But it's nothing personal.
I tend to agree, why should I want to be good? Haven't you heard? Wicked Always Wins!
And I very much enjoy winning.
It's possible to know you are evil but to stick with it because you don't see any real alternative. Even if one of these annoying Sarenites tells you there is a chance for redemption: Yeah, might work for other people, you are already too deep in sh*t.
It's possible to know you are evil but to stick with it because you don't see any real alternative. Even if one of these annoying Sarenites tells you there is a chance for redemption: Yeah, might work for other people, you are already too deep in sh*t.
I would imagine however, that over the course of say a 1st through 12th level career an evil character would be extremely likely to discover:
- Evil is a thing that exists in a tangible sense.
- I am Evil.
- Evil doesn't reliably work out for its practitioners.
- There are other options I can pursue.
I can totally understand a level 1 character having all sorts of wrong ideas about the universe, but over the course of a dozen levels it seems increasingly unlikely that they would remain willfully ignorant and not reconsider certain choices rather than just recommitting to them.
Like what I imagine what will doom this suggested evil campaign is half the party will decide to stop being evil.
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- Evil doesn't reliably work out for its practitioners.Now that depends on the campaign. They may find that Evil works out very reliably for them but not the practitioners they come across.
LOL If the game is in Cheliax, it could work very reliably for those on the right side of the establishment. Someone from House Thrune understands evil, is fine with it and it works out great for them.
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- Evil doesn't reliably work out for its practitioners.
Hi I would like to talk to you about Szuriel, shes a Demigod, she was an Evil queen, I would like to introduce you to Baba Yaga, she makes people into Demi gods as punishment. Asmodeus is having a pretty darn good time, he's evil, he has the keys to the universe destruction engine, he gets what he wants.
Evil works for people. Like a lot. Sometimes pesky adventures kill out brethren, but mostly they don't.
So when an evil PC happens they aim for those guys^^^ not cultist number 3 who got smited. Just like when a good PC happens they aim for Luke Skywalker, not rebel number 3 whose head Darth vader popped.
I guess to cross over the diagetic barrier, my question is ultimately:
What would make a story about becoming Baba Yaga, or Darth Vader, or whatever villain a satisfying one to tell or hear?
If you look at the history of fiction, most stories that are primarily about villains culminate in either redemption or comeuppance. Darth Vader ends up throwing the Emperor down a shaft, and Baba Yaga primarily serves to be an antagonist in someone else's story. Both Scarface and Walter White get gunned down, but Jesse Pinkman gets out of the business (but is irreparably scarred by the experience.)
How do you tell a satisfying story about an evil character (not just an antihero) who neither redeems nor pays for their misdeeds?
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I guess to cross over the diagetic barrier, my question is ultimately:
What would make a story about becoming Baba Yaga, or Darth Vader, or whatever villain a satisfying one to tell or hear?
Personal preference. Look at Sweeny Todd and other Villian Protagonists.
Edit: Jogged the memory there. The Godfather is one of the most well regarded movies ever and fits exactly what you are asking.
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I believe it's called Way of the wicked, the best adventure path about Evil characters.
In a setting where Good won, evil has been oppressed to the corner of the worlds, living in squalor. A group of accused go through a count of monte cristo like journey.
Involving all the classic villains stuffs you always wanted to do:
-Dungeon Keeper, betrayal, making deal with the devil, recruiting npcs and forming your evil organizations, make opening for yourself, fight good creatures and people etc...
And if you do it right at the end, you take over the good kingdom and rules it in eternal darkness.
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I don't understand the appeal of being evil either, but that matches with my taste in literature and movies. I like epic stories of good defeating evil. To me, this is what a Pathfinder game is about. When I GM, I require all PCs to have a good alignment of some kind. I would not play as any character with a neutral alignment ( on the G/E axis, NG is fine), let alone evil. I know some players are looking for a different kind of game/story, but I don't get it.
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Tammy won't pay for her misdeeds.
That's what minions are for.
How do you tell a satisfying story about an evil character (not just an antihero) who neither redeems nor pays for their misdeeds?
I find a long and complex story with near misses and close scrapes about the eventual achievement of my aspirations quite engaging,but then, its about me.
I don't understand the appeal of being evil either, but that matches with my taste in literature and movies. I like epic stories of good defeating evil. To me, this is what a Pathfinder game is about. When I GM, I require all PCs to have a good alignment of some kind. I would not play as any character with a neutral alignment ( on the G/E axis, NG is fine), let alone evil. I know some players are looking for a different kind of game/story, but I don't get it.
Sounds awful.
Well evil has its purpose:
Once played a man who seeked to avenge those that hurt him and his family all those years back. He didn't mind being evil if it granted him the power to do the deed.
This was a monsters game where we all played Monster Class (someone converted monsters to classes) I chose wraith. I was sort of like Shadow of Mordor, LOTR game.
Malak was a guard in the kingdom of Renload. He had lived there his entire life. He joined the guard because he wanted to give back and defend the land he called home. .He was dedicated to protecting his family, his wife Alisa and his daughter Angela. He felt the ultimate sadness when her life was drained from his body moments before a sword was plunged through his gut, he laid bleeding, cursing his slothness in his training. Maybe if he had worked harder he could have saved her or even his own. But that is getting the horse before the cart...
Renload was a peaceful kingdom, it had soldiers and other defenses, but the neighboring kingdom Kunsoan was trying to expand its territory. It saw its old ally Renload as nothing more than an obstacle. A group of soldiers came to the kingdom under the guise of diplomacy. It was a party and everyone was celebrating. Malak was supposed to be training a group of guards, but instead he was party as he never expected an attack would take place.
However, all was not to be. While some of the neighboring soldiers did party to keep up appearances, the rest were sabotaging and murdering silently guards and other defenses of the kingdom. By the time, any one in Renload figured it out, it was too late, the forces of Kunsoan had surrounded the kingdom, slaughtered more than half of its defending soldiers and ruined its defenses.
Malak was still partying when he saw a soldier of Kunsoan covered in blood charge at him with an axe. Luckily, another soldier at the same moment came to talk to Malak and was in the way and was cleaved in twain. The horror and shock made Malak run. He should have gone for weapons and allies... maybe tried to rally his fellow men, but he ran. He ran to his home. He locked the door. He said nothing to his wife and children who were wondering why he was acting so shaken. Then he jumped in bed and covered his head with his blanked and tried to pretend this was a dream. But he only delayed the inevitable, within an hour or two there wasn't a knock at the door: no, there was a blundgening as if they were trying to battering down with their whole body. It was that same man who almost killed Malak before. All Malak could hear was a big blast as if the door was broken into splinters by something. He jumped up grabs his sword and hoped it wasn't as bad was he thought.
In the next room, he saw his wife...well, her head it rolled to his feet, his child was on the ground cowering as the bloodied armored man laughed on top of her. He saw Malak. He smiled, a sickening grin as wide as the earth was round, and then chopped his daughter's hand off she was using to push him off. Then he jumped off her as Malak seemed to be his main goal. She screamed for her daddy to save her. That was when the man sliced her chest silencing her as if her screams were an annoyance.
Malak had failed... he failed his kingdom... he failed his wife and now his daughter. Maybe I can redeem myself maybe if I can kill this man. Malak charged with fury, cursing his life, he would slay this man whether he died. But he missed, his angle of the blow was off, his blow deflected, the blade got then wedged into the wall, the man laughed at Malak as if that was the best you can do. Malak's sword wouldn't budge. The man just kept laughing. Finally, after struggling a few times, he released the blade and ran at the man to slay him.
The man decided to stop playing around. As if time stopped, he disarmed Malak up the elbow literally, then cleaved into his gut. As Malak was slumped on the ground, dribbling blood from his lips, he called out to any power to let him get revenge. But it was not to be in this life as then he was beheaded by the man. The nation of Renload was demolished and became a vassal of Kunsoan though resistance of the old kingdom exist to this day.
And Malak. He woke up a year later. He didn't really remember most of his past. He only remembers he hates the sun only. He had somehow turned into a Wraith.
Somehow, his plea for help as invited whispers to his mind, letting creatures from beyond the realm return briefly aiding him. They only ask for a moment of hid existence, but he wonders what their true purpose is. Even though, he was a lowly guard, he can now conjure magic and the rage he felt moments before he died stayed with him. He can feel it bubbling up in him. When he found a dog trapped below some rubble, he fed on it, but soon the dog was free as a Wraith like him. He called it Dogmeat.
I became a Bloodrager Wraith. This was Gestalt so monster levels don't mess with class levels.
Ironically, I was enlightened archetype (pre-nerf).
Another character was Reomava Seri (Naga Aspirant, Druid)
A guy broke her heart and so she killed him out of passion. And more people by accident. She loved fire from then on. Never had to pay for her crimes due to escaping (Way of Wicked Adventure Path)
Reomava was born in a tribal society before her parents moved to a city at a young age. She had already started her apprentice ship in Druidic ways. Luckily there were Druids in the city or she'd know nothing about the ways she could put into practice.
Reomava did not want to to set the world on fire, she just wanted to start a flame in his heart. She fell hard for a Priest of Mitra. Jonnah. She met while he was teaching one day at the church, something in her told he might be the one...
Sadly, things don't always go the way you plan. Sometimes no matter how you feel, no matter how much you hope, the only thing you can count on is FIRE BURNS.
She tried to impress him with her knowledge of the natural world being a druid. She tried to be his friend in hopes that maybe he would see her as something more eventually. She lost all ambition for worldly acclaim, she just wanted to be the one he loved. Every attempt failed... but she pressed on. However, one day the Priest was flirting with another female... this would not be forgiven.
She walked around the church, taking a stroll hoping it would quench the pain, but the burning feel remained. She noticed there was oil rags and other inflammable objects by the trash. One spark...one tiny fire would create something create...
She really didn't want to set the would on fire... she just wanted to start the flame in his heart.
The fire engulf the whole of the church...it spread too fast, the building was old and crumbled setting beams of wooden across the front door... none of the clergy could move it.
In a way, she wondered maybe the church brought it on herself.
The whole time the church burned, she laugh... not a evil laugh, no
She laughed at the irony of it all and how fire was the one thing you can count on....fire burns. Way down inside, she still had one desire...she will meet Jonnah again, she hopes he will forgive her... till then let the fires burn...
They caught her after the place stopped burning after a few hours. When they asked if she started the fire. She smiled and said yes. She didn't resist, she knew what she did wasn't right, but it made her feel better.
Next time she thought, I hope the fire burns longer.
It was fun playing a woman so impulsive that her first choice when jealous hits was murder. Much fun that.