The cantrip "Resistance"


Advice


A player in my group said early in the session that he always has resistance and guidance up, but that seems broken. A few in game hours later he made a save in game, then 11 rounds of combat passed before combat ended. Then he has one round of downtime before he had to make a reflex save and failed by one. Then claimed because he had enough time to cast resistance, he would have. Opinions?


Make him randomly select whether his insane paranoid mage cast guidance or resistance in that one round.... :-)


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Considering they only give a +1 bonus I don’t think they are really broken. Also once he gets a cloak of resistance it will not stack with the spell.

Another thing to consider is that while he can cast both of them an unlimited number of times per day they do take time. Make sure to reduce movement and progress on anything to account for the extra time he is spending casting spells. Since both spells require a round to cast that means he is using 2 out of every 10 turns casting spells. This means that he is using up 20% of the day casting spells so make sure to reduce any movement especially overland movement accordingly. This also means if he is doing other things like crafting items or anything requiring time he only gets 80% of the result. Once this starts affecting the rest of the party they will probably put a stop to it.

Since Guidance is a cleric spell you could also have his deity get annoyed him and he loses access to those spells.

Scarab Sages

They take a standard action, so he still gets a move action in the rounds he casts them. So only 10% reduction in speed per minute. I'm not a fan of this kind of continuous casting on minute per level things. I'll do it with some 10 minute things, like light or a wand of heightened awareness (when in a situation I expect to need it). Casting every minute all day, every day just seems like it would get annoying.

For a situation like what was described, if I as GM knew it would only be one round, then I would ask each player what their charter does immediately following the battle. Since that didn't happen, if casting resistance and guidance is his standard, then I like the random roll to see which he cast first. Either that or he specifies which is always first.


1) It was a reflex save. How bad really is it if he failed his save? Compared to fort/will, reflex saves are often less costly to fail.
2) Directly post combat is when most people let their guard down the most. Unless his character is that paranoid guy refreshing 1 minute defensive buffs would be secondary to looting and/or confirming kills
3) Definitely not broken. They don't stack with much once they start leveling
4) Also depends on the environment. If they just finished beating up bandits in the middle of town then they are probably not expecting another combat. In the middle of a realm of fire where they are constantly having to avoid molten rock falling then yes those spells are on asap
5) Do you know how annoying it is to do something once per minute? Try sending a 1 character text once per minute. Unless you know beforehand that your life might be in danger within the next minute, your not doing it


Personally, I see the constant-casting of short buffs as a sort of a channeling of your inner Chirrut Imwe, "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me, I am one with the Force and the Force is with me, I am one with the Force and the Force is with me, I am one with the Force and the Force is with me,I am one with the Force and the Force is with me, I am one with the Force and the Force is with me..."
Which helps excuse the idea of constantly casting a spell. Other than that, most people might not immediately think to re-cast your short term defensive buffs at once- combat ending usually means, you slump your shoulders, catch your breath, and the adrenaline leaves. Then, a little while later, you start thinking about things other than relief and you get ready for the next fight. So, with six seconds on the clock, did he re-cast his "I am one with the Force"? Most likely not. It's just not really how people think- especially scholars.


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Make him RP it out. He's got to shout "Resistance!" and "Guidance!" every 60 seconds IRL. I give him 20 minutes before he breaks.

And if he doesn't quit, then you get to adventure with a pokemon. "Resistance! Resistance! Guiiiidance resistance guidance!"


He can't have both buffs up all the time when it a single round passes just arbitrarily chooses the one that makes the most benefit because "he would have"

If it had been a skill check I can promise you he would have said "I had one round to cast guidance so I would have."

Cheating is cheating. And that is what that is. You make him announce it. Otherwise you're fully within your rights to randomly say "you don't get to cast that spell because you're too busy casting resistance so that it's always up. Your turn is over."

Because that's the logic he's using

Grand Lodge

If he says his character is constantly renewing these buffs then it's fine, and you should let him have the bonus to the save. If he's not said that, then make sure to make it clear that he has to let you know from here on out.

A +1 on saves that doesn't stack with a cloak of resistance is hardly game breaking. Same goes for guidance.


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My opinion only (easy to implement)...
Keep players "in initiative" for a few rounds after encounters (keep track of enemies bleeding out). During this time, does the player cast resistance? Does the player cast guidance?

Another suggestion (also easy to implement)...
Ask the order in which the spells are generally cast (i.e. resistance followed the next round by guidance). At the beginning of each combat, roll a d10 to see how many rounds are left on those spells. If you roll a "3", the guidance has three rounds left and the resistance has 2 rounds left. If you roll a "1", the guidance only has one round left, and at the beginning of the player's turn, the resistance expires.

If you follow that suggestion, there is a good chance the player will counter with casting those spells once every 5 rounds rather than once every 10 rounds... which isn't really a problem, but it potentially slows the party down twice as much. In this case, the player has 1d10+5 rounds left (one fewer for the first spell cast).

Final suggestion (this one takes it too far in my opinion) ...
You also might need to keep track of detect magic. Is this player using detect magic (or other "detect spells")? That takes time (three rounds per 60 foot cone). To completely scan in four directions while also taking the time to rebuff resistance and guidance, it might take 2 minutes.


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Remember that spells with a verbal component all mean he is walking around making noise which means enemies might hear him and ready an ambush. That is the flaw with constant detect magic, resistance, guidance, etc.


RealAlchemy wrote:
Remember that spells with a verbal component all mean he is walking around making noise which means enemies might hear him and ready an ambush. That is the flaw with constant detect magic, resistance, guidance, etc.

The Spiritualist gets both Resistance and Guidance, and cast spells psychically (so there are no verbal or somatic components; you're just thinking real hard). So this is not a panacea.

The Exchange

every minute while awake he stops for 12 seconds to put them back up, for something that might make a difference once in a long time. sounds boring life to me. wait guys got cast this again, again, again, again, ect........................................................................ .....................................


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roll a 1d10 at the start of combat. This represents the number of rounds he has left on the last cast of the spell (10 rounds in a minute).

This prevents you from having to micromanage when he cast his last cast the spell. This assumes that the fight started at some random time since his last cast. This can limit the benefit or resistance in long fights like those described, while still allowing him to get their benefit.

Since he uses both resistance and guidance, just take the same 1d10 roll and give it a -1 or +1. This means he cast the guidance spell right before or after the resistance. If he casts on the rest of the party too, give them adjustments to remaining rounds for similar purposes.

Anyway, this will get less annoying after cloaks of resistance start going around. After that, he will only spam guidance spells (which seems alright- it is a expendable type of effect, so it will only come up once in a fight for each character).


Jeff Morse wrote:
every minute while awake he stops for 12 seconds to put them back up, for something that might make a difference once in a long time. sounds boring life to me. wait guys got cast this again, again, again, again, ect........................................................................ .....................................

I've heard that somewhere before... I search for traps every 10' that I move or I can't find traps... Shoot me now...


At low-level, when all you've got are orisons and a precious few other slots, it absolutely makes sense that an adventurer would take the time to buff themselves up with at least guidance. Yes, it takes time, but it's a HUGE benefit.

My problem with the nay-sayers is this...

You've got these spells, and in-character knowledge that bad things happen. Some things you don't get warning for. Reflex saves against traps that you accidentally set off. Fortitude saves against poison you didn't know you were exposed to. It's natural to use these resources to proactively protect yourself in a dungeon. It's sensible. It's wise.

I don't mean to say it'd happen at all times; relaxing in a tavern or just having a conversation with an NPC it'd be kind of paranoid and wasteful. But while adventuring? Yes. Random travel between sites? Probably not.

At my table, I make a point of a} making sure I say it a lot, to make the point that my character is casting it a lot and b} watch the action economy to make sure I'm not cheating. I also don't assume that it can last an entire combat; who knows... I might have cast the spell 9 rounds ago, leaving me with only one round of combat before it expires.

I say it's a cool ability and it's one a cleric type should be throwing around as often as possible. They're literally bestowing the blessings of their deity.

"Gorum bless!"


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Honestly, I'd give him the bonuses. Players who try to get every little advantage within reach are usually not that capable anyway, so boosting them a bit doesn't break encounters or the fun of fellow players. I am rather worried about players who try to get every serious advantage.


I mean, I have traveled over land with a Kineticist using kinetic haul via basic telekinesis every single round in order to make a really heavy thing float so that nobody had to carry it. I don't think it's unreasonable to do a thing every single round assuming there is a reason you want to do it (e.g. "I am worried about being attacked" or "I want to get this giant golden helmet back where we can sell it").

Probably "stopping every minute to recast their spells" is unreasonable and unrealistic during breakfast, while shopping, at fancy dinner parties, etc. But if you're in a dungeon or another place you expect to be dangerous? I don't see a problem with it.


Anguish wrote:

At low-level, when all you've got are orisons and a precious few other slots, it absolutely makes sense that an adventurer would take the time to buff themselves up with at least guidance. Yes, it takes time, but it's a HUGE benefit.

My problem with the nay-sayers is this...

You've got these spells, and in-character knowledge that bad things happen. Some things you don't get warning for. Reflex saves against traps that you accidentally set off. Fortitude saves against poison you didn't know you were exposed to. It's natural to use these resources to proactively protect yourself in a dungeon. It's sensible. It's wise.

I don't mean to say it'd happen at all times; relaxing in a tavern or just having a conversation with an NPC it'd be kind of paranoid and wasteful. But while adventuring? Yes. Random travel between sites? Probably not.

At my table, I make a point of a} making sure I say it a lot, to make the point that my character is casting it a lot and b} watch the action economy to make sure I'm not cheating. I also don't assume that it can last an entire combat; who knows... I might have cast the spell 9 rounds ago, leaving me with only one round of combat before it expires.

I say it's a cool ability and it's one a cleric type should be throwing around as often as possible. They're literally bestowing the blessings of their deity.

"Gorum bless!"

In my mind, the problem is not the in-game plausibility of a character wanting the maximum benefit of his spells. Instead, problem is the at-the-game-table inconvenience of a player micromanaging his character in an irritating manner for a minor benefit. The player thinks that saying, "I always have Resistance and Guidance cast on myself," means convenient free continuous +1 to saves and to his first attack roll in an encounter. When the cost is mentioned, the player tries to argue it away.

I am not talking from speculation here. A newbie player in my campaign took Leadership and gained a wizard cohort who knew Resistaace. He was generous enough to offer to keep Resistance on all the characters in the party. When the other players pointed out the awkwardness of casting Resistance every minute on the few characters who still lacked Cloaks of Resistance, the newbie tried to argue that it would not be difficult at all. They passed on his offer, because they preferred realistc roleplaying to gaming the system. I choose to render the point moot by the party encountering some enemies whose gear gave them enough Cloaks of Resistance for everybody.

Vixizer's player was not as generous as my player, which adds to the problem. As Mysterious Stranger said, stopping to cast the spell every minute would slow down the party, so the entire party would pay the price for the PC's individual benefit.

ForkOfSpite wrote:

Another suggestion (also easy to implement)...

Ask the order in which the spells are generally cast (i.e. resistance followed the next round by guidance). At the beginning of each combat, roll a d10 to see how many rounds are left on those spells. If you roll a "3", the guidance has three rounds left and the resistance has 2 rounds left. If you roll a "1", the guidance only has one round left, and at the beginning of the player's turn, the resistance expires.

This is a good suggestion, but let me suggest a modification. Make the following offer to the player. Instead of having the repeated casting of Resistance and Guidance slow down the party, the PC will pay a price that he might be distracted by his casting. If the party is caught in an ambush, and the PC rolls an "expires immediately" roll on Resistance or Guidance, then he casts that spell during the surprise round and automatically fails his perception skill check to spot the ambush.


Mathmuse wrote:

In my mind, the problem is not the in-game plausibility of a character wanting the maximum benefit of his spells. Instead, problem is the at-the-game-table inconvenience of a player micromanaging his character in an irritating manner for a minor benefit. The player thinks that saying, "I always have Resistance and Guidance cast on myself," means convenient free continuous +1 to saves and to his first attack roll in an encounter. When the cost is mentioned, the player tries to argue it away.

I am not talking from speculation here. A newbie player in my campaign took Leadership and gained a wizard cohort who knew Resistaace. He was generous enough to offer to keep Resistance on all the characters in the party. When the other players pointed out the awkwardness of casting Resistance every minute on the few characters who still lacked Cloaks of Resistance, the newbie tried to argue that it would not be difficult at all. They passed on his offer, because they preferred realistc roleplaying to gaming the system. I choose to render the point moot by the party encountering some enemies whose gear gave them enough Cloaks of Resistance for everybody.

Vixizer's player was not as generous as my player, which adds to the problem. As Mysterious Stranger said, stopping to cast the spell every minute would slow down the party, so the entire party would pay the price for the PC's individual benefit.

I hear you, but that's specific player(s).

Among my groups, both when I DM and play, guidance is a thing. Just like setting up flanking, it's a tactic that everyone thinks about. Most situations where something is going to be attempted (unlocking a door, identifying a magic item etc), whoever knows the spell makes a point of saying it, right before the player making a check rolls. It's just like "remember bless is up". Of course, that's out-of-combat, with the assumption that time isn't an issue and there's a moment to cast the spell right before the check.

In combat, it's rarely used. Using it on an attack is wasteful, and we never/rarely do that. Most combats it's just there, lurking, and only on the character who cast it on themselves, generally. But boy, when someone casts confusion on the cleric, it's time to use the bonus. (Assuming Spellcraft identified what's coming.)

My point is that with a group that are... mature and experienced, the spell can work as it realistically should.

I'm not disputing your experience, just adding that in a different setting with different people, it goes a different way.


Casting the spells wouldn't slow you down actually. If you look at standard movement rates, the game only expects you to take a single move action a round. (A little slower even, when calculating long distances.)

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