Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
posted Fri, May 12, 2017
In light of this recent FAQ and the impact it has to archers, I offer this petition for the ability to get a full refund on enhancement costs for people who enhanced ranged weapons higher than +1. As of May 12th, the gold used to increase the ranged weapon above +1 is wasted because it no longer allows the arrows to overcome DR.
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Wow that is a big change. That FAQ seems like it is nerfing archery just for the sake of it. A higher enhancement bonus use to mean less book-keeping for all those random arrows..
I think a refund is warranted as well.
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?
No but it stopped working the way the book describes it and the way the game was played since 2009 core rulebook.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Eh, special materials for arrows are cheap enough that I've never bothered with straight up upping the +1 to a +3. 2 gp for 20 pieces of cold iron is pocket change if you can afford a +2 weapon. Adamantine is pricey, but I doubt you'll reach a +4 weapon in your PFS career. Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
In short: errata might suck, but I don't think it impacts things enough that you need a refund. And as Tyrant Princess said, they still give a +1 on to-hit/damage, so it's not exactly "wasted," just not relevant for its intended use anymore.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.
Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?
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More reason to take Clustered Shots, I guess.
I was trying to not be forced into taking this on my inquisitor and was purchasing a higher bonus to compensate but yeah this is the real solution.
Edit: Speaking of which it be an added bonus to retrain a feat into Clustered Shots for free to fix this problem.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.
For a fair number of players, yes I think that is the specific reason they increased the enchantment.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The Conserving weapon property may become more common. Hate to lose a magic arrow just because you missed your target.
This ability cannot be placed on firearms. Only projectile weapons can be made conserving. When the wielder misses with a ranged attack, the fired ammunition teleports unharmed to its quiver, case, or pouch. If the ammunition in question would be destroyed for other reasons than merely being launched, such as an arrow that breaks apart in flight, this special ability does not function and the ammunition is destroyed as normal. Effects that block teleportation prevent this special ability from working.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.Expect table variation on that.
Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?
Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud.
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Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.Expect table variation on that.Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?
Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud.
"The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items"
"Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have rounded wooden tips"
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I think a fair number of archers specifically purchased bows with higher levels of enhancements to specifically overcome DR. I know of at least 3 in just my area.
My archer just hit level 10 and I'm considering upping his +1 to a +2. Getting a +3 weapon isn't impossible, but you'd get it really lategame, like somewhere in level 11, unless you spend everything on your bow and neglect your other items. And a +3 only penetrates cold iron/silver, for adamantine you need a +4, which is tremendously expensive for PFS standards, unless you're playing post-level 12. In that case, it sucks, but I also think it's kinda a waste of money. Buying regular cold iron stuff would've been cheaper and you could've spent that money on other stuff. Unless you're also going for that extra +1 to-hit and damage, of course.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.Expect table variation on that.Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?
Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud."The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items"
"Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have rounded wooden tips"
Huh, thanks. I looked it up before posting that to see if I'd missed something, but apparently d20pfsrd doesn't use that language. Nethys does. That might invalidate some of my purchases. Luckily, I haven't used my silver blunt arrows yet, and it's rare enough I can go without it, I guess.
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I think a fair number of archers specifically purchased bows with higher levels of enhancements to specifically overcome DR. I know of at least 3 in just my area.
I know a player that talks about how his zen archer had to save for so long to get his +5 bow to overcome alignment DR, So yeah, for some people it's all about overcoming DR.
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For a fair number of players, yes I think that is the specific reason they increased the enchantment.Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.
This is exactly the reason I went to +2 on my occultist archer, who would Legacy for +1 Bane in order to get to an effective +5. I would have stayed at +1 and obtained a named property instead had this been FAQ'd this way earlier.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So the FAQ "clarified" something that "had been that way all along", except that almost nobody was aware of how it had been all along, and people bought high-enhancement bows not knowing that they wouldn't do what they were hoping what they would do.
So people bought something in good faith, that was effectively changed by the FAQ (to the thing that it was "all along"). I think that's a reasonable cause for refunding.
Developer
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John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.
If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.
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John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.
If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.
While I do appreciate how quickly the team came to a decision I feel there is a disconnect between the solution and the problem. These magical bonuses aren't going to help characters fix their issues with DR. We need the gold back to purchase items. There is also going to be retraining costs if people need the feat which we might be stuck with either way.
Contributor
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John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.
If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.
Excellent. Thank you for the rapid response! ^_^
So the FAQ "clarified" something that "had been that way all along", except that almost nobody was aware of how it had been all along, and people bought high-enhancement bows not knowing that they wouldn't do what they were hoping what they would do.
So people bought something in good faith, that was effectively changed by the FAQ (to the thing that it was "all along"). I think that's a reasonable cause for refunding.
It's Flurry = TWF all over again.
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Will a wooden item catch fire when placed over a hot flame for a full round?Not according to the rules.
Sometimes you don't need a rule to make things happen that make sense. If you put wood in a fire it will burn.
But rules... a small fire does 1d6 damage. At GMs discretion some specific energy types can bypass an items hardness. I'd say fire bypasses wood's hardness. If the damage rolled does enough to dedtroy the arrow, then it burns up.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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While I do appreciate how quickly the team came to a decision I feel there is a disconnect between the solution and the problem. These magical bonuses aren't going to help characters fix their issues with DR. We need the gold back to purchase items. There is also going to be retraining costs if people need the feat which we might be stuck with either way.John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.
If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.
It's a very "on-topic" fix; the team has been hesitant to allow full rebuilds, so this basically comes down to "rebuild just your bow".
Note that you can pick properties (Holy!) that will help against DR, and arrows that penetrate other types of DR are affordable, certainly when compared to higher grade bow enchantments.
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As long as launchers still bestow their full enhancement bonus/other enchantments to otherwise-normal ammunition, I'm okay with requiring the ammunition itself to be specially-made with regards to overcoming material-based DR. Allowing such DR to be overcome through sheer enhancement bonus under any circumstances is, after all, a new mercy.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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As long as launchers still bestow their full enhancement bonus/other enchantments to otherwise-normal ammunition, I'm okay with requiring the ammunition itself to be specially-made with regards to overcoming material-based DR. Allowing such DR to be overcome through sheer enhancement bonus under any circumstances is, after all, a new mercy.It makes alignment DR a significantly more difficult issue, especially in core where clustered shots is not available. You can get round evil DR with a holy enchantment but it is expensive. The rest probably mean carting around scrolls of align weapon and then taking actions for someone to use them mid fight.
That's true, but Holy solves 90% of your alignment-based DR problems anyway. It's really rare to face other DR, and it's okay for that to be harder for you than normal.