Petition to allow a refund in light of a recent FAQ


Pathfinder Society

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Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.
My Ranger put Silver Blanch on her regular arrowheads. That won't impose a -1 damage for exactly the same reason her adamantine-blanched arrowheads won't turn her bow into a seige engine.

I think you quoted the wrong person?

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

SCPRedMage wrote:

Considering that weapon blanches have rules covering applying them to ammunition, I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can use them on arrows, which are pretty much the most common ammo type.

Beyond that, the description of weapon blanch:

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round
Over the fire, not in the fire. Being placed over a fire for a single round is not going to be anywhere near hot enough to burn through an arrow. Ever roast marshmellows over a camp fire? That stick you're using is likely thinner than an arrow, and holding it over a fire for a minute doesn't destroy it.

It's solder. Weapon blanch is just solder and depending on the alloy the temperature to cause it to flow would be fairly low.


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This doesn't seem like a clarification, just another heavy handed nerf.


Nefreet wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.
My Ranger put Silver Blanch on her regular arrowheads. That won't impose a -1 damage for exactly the same reason her adamantine-blanched arrowheads won't turn her bow into a seige engine.
I think you quoted the wrong person?

I meant to join the conversation between you and Quentin Coldwater about Alchemal Silver Arrows. He suggested Blunt Silver Arrows. You think there might be a rules problem with that. I'm suggesting Alchemal Silver Blanch instead of real silver arrows.

Am I mistaken? No offense intended.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:

Considering that weapon blanches have rules covering applying them to ammunition, I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can use them on arrows, which are pretty much the most common ammo type.

Beyond that, the description of weapon blanch:

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round
Over the fire, not in the fire. Being placed over a fire for a single round is not going to be anywhere near hot enough to burn through an arrow. Ever roast marshmellows over a camp fire? That stick you're using is likely thinner than an arrow, and holding it over a fire for a minute doesn't destroy it.
It's solder. Weapon blanch is just solder and depending on the alloy the temperature to cause it to flow would be fairly low.

Maybe you could just remove the arrowheads, blanch them, then put them back on?

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:

Considering that weapon blanches have rules covering applying them to ammunition, I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can use them on arrows, which are pretty much the most common ammo type.

Beyond that, the description of weapon blanch:

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round
Over the fire, not in the fire. Being placed over a fire for a single round is not going to be anywhere near hot enough to burn through an arrow. Ever roast marshmellows over a camp fire? That stick you're using is likely thinner than an arrow, and holding it over a fire for a minute doesn't destroy it.
It's solder. Weapon blanch is just solder and depending on the alloy the temperature to cause it to flow would be fairly low.
Maybe you could just remove the arrowheads, blanch them, then put them back on?

What I was saying that you don't need an incredibly hot flame if you apply real world logic to it but yeah that would work too.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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I'm fine with blanches on arrowheads. I draw the line at Paper Alchemical Cartridges. Melting things onto a combination of gunpowder and paper is a bad recipe.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Even applying real world logic, wood does not instantly combust when placed in a campfire. it takes more than 6 seconds. Fire hardened spears are a thing you do if you can't find suitable stone

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.

If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.

Linda, John, and Tonya,

Thank you for a quick review and determination. While not ideal in some player's mind, the ability to get some special weapon properties instead is reasonable and workable.

Scarab Sages 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Even applying real world logic, wood does not instantly combust when placed in a campfire. it takes more than 6 seconds. Fire hardened spears are a thing you do if you can't find suitable stone

Right, but blanches take longer than 6 seconds. They take 60 seconds.

And I'm well aware of fire-hardended spears.

If you hold a wooden stick over a fire, sometimes it will catch on fire if the fire is hot enough. I've done it many times. Other times you can put it right in the hot coals and it won't catch on fire.

I consider this just bad damage rolls.

If you put wood in a fire, it will take fire damage. If it takes enough fire damage to destroy the piece of wood, it burns up.

Dark Archive

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Tallow wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Even applying real world logic, wood does not instantly combust when placed in a campfire. it takes more than 6 seconds. Fire hardened spears are a thing you do if you can't find suitable stone

Right, but blanches take longer than 6 seconds. They take 60 seconds.

And I'm well aware of fire-hardended spears.

If you hold a wooden stick over a fire, sometimes it will catch on fire if the fire is hot enough. I've done it many times. Other times you can put it right in the hot coals and it won't catch on fire.

I consider this just bad damage rolls.

If you put wood in a fire, it will take fire damage. If it takes enough fire damage to destroy the piece of wood, it burns up.

Why is is 60 seconds? A full round is 6 seconds.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

James Anderson wrote:
I'm fine with blanches on arrowheads. I draw the line at Paper Alchemical Cartridges. Melting things onto a combination of gunpowder and paper is a bad recipe.

Wouldnt you just be able to take the cartridge apart? On top of that too having had molten hot metal land on my skin the temperatures aren't that bad.

Shadow Lodge

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RSX Raver wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Right, but blanches take longer than 6 seconds. They take 60 seconds.
Why is is 60 seconds? A full round is 6 seconds.

RSX Raver is right, as I quoted earlier in the thread...

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round

So it's six seconds, not a minute, and it's not in the fire, but over it; there's no way an arrow is going to combust from being held near a fire for six seconds. Anyone who thinks that applying a weapon blanch can possibly destroy an arrow or bolt either has some serious (but easily correctable) misconceptions about how it's applied, or serious misconceptions about what "flammable" means (hint: it doesn't mean it catches fire just because it's in the same zip code as a fire).

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

MadScientistWorking wrote:
James Anderson wrote:
I'm fine with blanches on arrowheads. I draw the line at Paper Alchemical Cartridges. Melting things onto a combination of gunpowder and paper is a bad recipe.
Wouldnt you just be able to take the cartridge apart? On top of that too having had molten hot metal land on my skin the temperatures aren't that bad.

Because PFS doesn't allow crafting. Putting the blanch on the bullet, then wrapping it up with the powder and paper is considered crafting, so not allowed. Being a gunslinger will get you half off, but under PFS that's basically just knowing someone who sells it cheaper - not technically crafting it yourself.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

SCPRedMage wrote:
RSX Raver wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Right, but blanches take longer than 6 seconds. They take 60 seconds.
Why is is 60 seconds? A full round is 6 seconds.

RSX Raver is right, as I quoted earlier in the thread...

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round
So it's six seconds, not a minute, and it's not in the fire, but over it; there's no way an arrow is going to combust from being held near a fire for six seconds. Anyone who thinks that applying a weapon blanch can possibly destroy an arrow or bolt either has some serious (but easily correctable) misconceptions about how it's applied, or serious misconceptions about what "flammable" means (hint: it doesn't mean it catches fire just because it's in the same zip code as a fire).

Wait what? So that means I can use my gas stove? I haven't ever turned it on since I figured it'd catch my flammable house on fire. ;)

Shadow Lodge

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Wait what? So that means I can use my gas stove? I haven't ever turned it on since I figured it'd catch my flammable house on fire. ;)

Well, depending on competence, your gas stove may burn down your house, anyways. :P

2/5

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.

or you could go with mithral arrows which is only 300 gp more the adamanitine for 20 arrows

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

"so officer you see i HAD to start the fire to show that my item was legal....

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I mean, no one ever blinked at my Staff Magus using weapon blanch on her quarterstaff. I think allowing people limited to wooden weapons to get through special materials DR is one of the points of these.

Shadow Lodge

Personally am trying to decide weather a +3 Holy is Better than a +5

I do have clustered Shots ..... really curious about the math

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Wraith235 wrote:

Personally am trying to decide weather a +3 Holy is Better than a +5

I do have clustered Shots ..... really curious about the math

Guess it matters what you are hitting. If it is evil than it you will do more damage.

Otherwise you will do less on average because of the missing +2 to damage.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Gary Bush wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

Personally am trying to decide weather a +3 Holy is Better than a +5

I do have clustered Shots ..... really curious about the math

Guess it matters what you are hitting. If it is evil than it you will do more damage.

Otherwise you will do less on average because of the missing +2 to damage.

Also the attack bonus can matter, unless you were hitting on a 2, losing 2 accuracy can turn a lot of hits into misses.

2/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette aka Poison Dusk

Well... my Oathbow just took a hell of a hit. I guess it still works thematically, at least.

Dark Archive

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Id like to be refunded for all my special arrows used in light of the fact that i could have just been using my bows bonus...

The Exchange

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
Id like to be refunded for all my special arrows used in light of the fact that i could have just been using my bows bonus...

If they are durable and you still have the item aren't they just as valuable now as when you were playing before?

If they aren't durable and you don't have the item anymore what are you selling back?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Durable magic arrows lose their enchantments after being fired.

Shadow Lodge

so after looking at the PC ... with everything active Im at a 21/21/21/16/16/11 (+1 more with about 12k spent) at 11th level ... thinking the extra -2/-2 might very well be too much

The Exchange

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Durable magic arrows lose their enchantments after being fired.

For some reason I thought he meant special material not magical.

Dark Archive

No,

I mean special material.
If people get a two way street for getting a refund, or rebuild because their bows now work correctly, I'd like a refund for all my special material arrows I've used, because I never exploited a bow loop hole.

Good for the goose, etc etc.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Well, right now people can't get a refund, only ability to take weapon properties.

The Exchange

"Exploited"...

This is what these rediculous FAQs do every single time.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Kwinten Koëter wrote:

Eh, special materials for arrows are cheap enough that I've never bothered with straight up upping the +1 to a +3. 2 gp for 20 pieces of cold iron is pocket change if you can afford a +2 weapon. Adamantine is pricey, but I doubt you'll reach a +4 weapon in your PFS career. Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.

In short: errata might suck, but I don't think it impacts things enough that you need a refund. And as Tyrant Princess said, they still give a +1 on to-hit/damage, so it's not exactly "wasted," just not relevant for its intended use anymore.

Because overcoming DR I saved money to buy +4 longbow. I bought it when I was level 9 in PFS. When I saw that new ruling I was so furious.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Delduwath wrote:
Because overcoming DR I saved money to buy +4 longbow. I bought it when I was level 9 in PFS. When I saw that new ruling I was so furious.

Curious on what option decided to do with your longbow?

3/5

Meh, archery is overpowered in Pathfinder anyway, this just slightly corrects that imbalance.

All my characters with bows or crossbows have a full set of blanches on cold iron ammo.

One thing I've never been completely clear on is whether you can buy a single adamantine durable arrow or you have to buy 50 at a time.

Shadow Lodge

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
One thing I've never been completely clear on is whether you can buy a single adamantine durable arrow or you have to buy 50 at a time.

You can buy them individually; the requirement for a lot of 50 is only for magic ammo.

Scarab Sages 5/5

SCPRedMage wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
One thing I've never been completely clear on is whether you can buy a single adamantine durable arrow or you have to buy 50 at a time.
You can buy them individually; the requirement for a lot of 50 is only for magic ammo.

This is only partially correct.

You can buy a single adamantine durable arrow, because durable arrows are sold as singular items.

If you want normal admantine arrows, you have to buy them in a bundle of 20, because that's how you buy normal arrows.

Lantern Lodge

I'm surprised people actually bought enchanted arrows. They are pretty expensive especially at higher levels when you burn 4-5 arrows a round. Clustered Shots was 100% necessary.

I don't think there should be refunds for the bow. +1 Attack and damage is worth it regardless of cutting through DR. Honestly I also have no idea why anyone would choose to invest in + arrows over + bows when a single feat will save you thousands of gold.

In terms of arrows bought and used because people didn't want to upgrade their bow... that's a tricky matter.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

kaisc006 wrote:

I'm surprised people actually bought enchanted arrows. They are pretty expensive especially at higher levels when you burn 4-5 arrows a round. Clustered Shots was 100% necessary.

I don't think there should be refunds for the bow. +1 Attack and damage is worth it regardless of cutting through DR. Honestly I also have no idea why anyone would choose to invest in + arrows over + bows when a single feat will save you thousands of gold.

In terms of arrows bought and used because people didn't want to upgrade their bow... that's a tricky matter.

The issue is already done. Linda laid down rules for trading in bonuses for something else in May.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah this thread was the victim of a low level Necromancer.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Maybe but it helps to get the word out about how the bonus for bows and other ranged weapons changed.

Shadow Lodge

Tallow wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
One thing I've never been completely clear on is whether you can buy a single adamantine durable arrow or you have to buy 50 at a time.
You can buy them individually; the requirement for a lot of 50 is only for magic ammo.

This is only partially correct.

You can buy a single adamantine durable arrow, because durable arrows are sold as singular items.

If you want normal admantine arrows, you have to buy them in a bundle of 20, because that's how you buy normal arrows.

Considering that the question was specifically about durable arrows, the answer was completely correct.


More or less how I read the rules as working anyway

Sovereign Court 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

ouch...


Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.

I would allow silver weapon blanched blunt arrows.

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